"dynamic tonic"?

Message #39783 in the Tuning group, posted by me on Oct 20,2002,
failed to kindle any interest, apparently. I think repeating the same messa=
ge in this forum may catch some obliging microtolist's attention strongly e=
nough to throw some light on the topic. However, I do apologize for the repe=
tition.

Regards,
Haresh.
------------------
From: "Haresh BAKSHI" <hareshbakshi@h...>
Date: Sun Oct 20, 2002 1:13 am
Subject: Re: "dynamic tonic"?

Hello kikomayorga, Jon, Mats, monz, wallyesterpaulrus, and all,
I have a couple of questions in regard to this "dynamic tonic":

(1) Can you tell me whether and how much is "extended reference" related to=
this question of "dynamic tonic"?

(2) Also, improvisation in raga music involves moving from the 'Sa', to the=
sonant (vadi), and consonant (samvadi). We stay on, emphasise, repeat, weav=
e patterns around, these vadi and samvadi long enough to keep away from 'Sa'=
for quite a long time. Does this result in
'extended reference'/dynamic tonic drift?

Thank you all in advance and in anticipation,
Haresh.

-------- original messages --------------------------------------
From: "kikomayorga" <kikomayorga@y...>
Date: Sun Oct 13, 2002 10:59 pm
i started building structures in reaktor3,
which periodically multiplied the reference frequency of a chord by
a simple just ratio (3/2 , 4/3 , 9/8) and took the result as the new
reference. -obviously i introduced an "autooctaver" which ensured
that the reference would not get out of a desired range.-

The chords were made up of randomly selected harmonics of the
dynamic reference frequency, which i started to call "dynamic
tonic". I have the impression that when listening to such a
structure, one starts expecting further modulations, and looses the
need of remainig around a static tonality.
------------------------
From: "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...>
Date: Sun Oct 13, 2002 11:40 pm

That would certainly be my impression. Both with JI and various ETs and tem=
perments, I find that many times I lose that wanting to home back in on one =
tonic.
-------------------------
From: Mats Öljare <oljare@h...>
Date: Sun Oct 13, 2002 11:40 pm
I don't think that there is much to theorize about this-it's a
psychological issue, related to the subjective effects of movement and
"tension".
---------------------------
From: "monz" <monz@a...>
Date: Mon Oct 14, 2002 1:34 am

one thing that i thought of right away from Kiko's description
is "commatic drift" -- when singers sing in strict JI and the
fact that the 2nd degree of the diatonic scale has to be tuned
one way to be consonant with the II chord and another way
(a syntonic comma higher) to be consonant with the V chord.
------------------------------
From: "wallyesterpaulrus" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...>
Date: Tue Oct 15, 2002 6:20 pm
hate to be a stickler but what you're describing here is a commatic
shift, not commatic drift. commatic drift is what would happen if you
tried to use only one tuning for the 2nd degree, say if it were a
melody note holding over from the ii chord to the V chord, but tuned
the other degrees to form ji chords with it. this would result in the
tonic itself drifting, usually downward by several commas over the
course of a typical composition.
-----------------------------
From: "kikomayorga" <kikomayorga@y...>
Date: Wed Oct 16, 2002 10:03 pm

Yeah... with JI one finds no limits when dinamically travelling
through new harmonic spaces..
I remember having made some long recordings which made harmonic sense
when listened linearly, but were surprisingly out of tune when
reproduced as randomly ordered sections. There are great
possibilities when playing around with dynamic reference, modulations
and short time memory!
-------------------------------

hi haresh.

i wanted to give kikomayorga a chance to clarify, but i guess that
never happened.

it seems there are too many ways to interpret the various terms being
thrown around below to come up with anything like a definitive answer.

on your second question, "drift" in a just intonation context
recently came up on the tuning list. johnny reinhard directed a
choral rendition of a binchois piece in ji, and since he observed all
common tones, the result (predictably) was drift, by several commas.
it would seem that, in indian music, the drone would prevent any such
drift from occuring, and the 22 srutis do not even contain a single
comma-altered version of either the tonic of fifth.

however, you may simply be thinking of the idea of setting up a form
of polytonality, or perhaps better stated, secondary
("local" / "middleground") tonic centers in the course of
improvisation in raga music -- for example, the putative case of
a "temporary" tonic on Dha that we discussed extensively in private e-
mails. this indeed seems to be a powerful, important ingredient of
some of the raga music i've listened to, and has influenced western
jazz musicians since coltrane to a huge extent . . .

--- In MakeMicroMusic@y..., "Haresh BAKSHI" <hareshbakshi@h...> wrote:
> Message #39783 in the Tuning group, posted by me on Oct 20,2002,
> failed to kindle any interest, apparently. I think repeating the
same messa=
> ge in this forum may catch some obliging microtolist's attention
strongly e=
> nough to throw some light on the topic. However, I do apologize for
the repe=
> tition.
>
> Regards,
> Haresh.
> ------------------
> From: "Haresh BAKSHI" <hareshbakshi@h...>
> Date: Sun Oct 20, 2002 1:13 am
> Subject: Re: "dynamic tonic"?
>
> Hello kikomayorga, Jon, Mats, monz, wallyesterpaulrus, and all,
> I have a couple of questions in regard to this "dynamic tonic":
>
> (1) Can you tell me whether and how much is "extended reference"
related to=
> this question of "dynamic tonic"?
>
> (2) Also, improvisation in raga music involves moving from
the 'Sa', to the=
> sonant (vadi), and consonant (samvadi). We stay on, emphasise,
repeat, weav=
> e patterns around, these vadi and samvadi long enough to keep away
from 'Sa'=
> for quite a long time. Does this result in
> 'extended reference'/dynamic tonic drift?
>
> Thank you all in advance and in anticipation,
> Haresh.
>
> -------- original messages --------------------------------------
> From: "kikomayorga" <kikomayorga@y...>
> Date: Sun Oct 13, 2002 10:59 pm
> i started building structures in reaktor3,
> which periodically multiplied the reference frequency of a chord by
> a simple just ratio (3/2 , 4/3 , 9/8) and took the result as the
new
> reference. -obviously i introduced an "autooctaver" which ensured
> that the reference would not get out of a desired range.-
>
> The chords were made up of randomly selected harmonics of the
> dynamic reference frequency, which i started to call "dynamic
> tonic". I have the impression that when listening to such a
> structure, one starts expecting further modulations, and looses the
> need of remainig around a static tonality.
> ------------------------
> From: "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...>
> Date: Sun Oct 13, 2002 11:40 pm
>
> That would certainly be my impression. Both with JI and various ETs
and tem=
> perments, I find that many times I lose that wanting to home back
in on one =
> tonic.
> -------------------------
> From: Mats Öljare <oljare@h...>
> Date: Sun Oct 13, 2002 11:40 pm
> I don't think that there is much to theorize about this-it's a
> psychological issue, related to the subjective effects of movement
and
> "tension".
> ---------------------------
> From: "monz" <monz@a...>
> Date: Mon Oct 14, 2002 1:34 am
>
> one thing that i thought of right away from Kiko's description
> is "commatic drift" -- when singers sing in strict JI and the
> fact that the 2nd degree of the diatonic scale has to be tuned
> one way to be consonant with the II chord and another way
> (a syntonic comma higher) to be consonant with the V chord.
> ------------------------------
> From: "wallyesterpaulrus" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...>
> Date: Tue Oct 15, 2002 6:20 pm
> hate to be a stickler but what you're describing here is a commatic
> shift, not commatic drift. commatic drift is what would happen if
you
> tried to use only one tuning for the 2nd degree, say if it were a
> melody note holding over from the ii chord to the V chord, but
tuned
> the other degrees to form ji chords with it. this would result in
the
> tonic itself drifting, usually downward by several commas over the
> course of a typical composition.
> -----------------------------
> From: "kikomayorga" <kikomayorga@y...>
> Date: Wed Oct 16, 2002 10:03 pm
>
> Yeah... with JI one finds no limits when dinamically travelling
> through new harmonic spaces..
> I remember having made some long recordings which made harmonic
sense
> when listened linearly, but were surprisingly out of tune when
> reproduced as randomly ordered sections. There are great
> possibilities when playing around with dynamic reference,
modulations
> and short time memory!
> -------------------------------