Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup makemicromusic Lament for classical guitar and flute

"Lament" is a two-minute classical-ish piece in 7/4 for quarter-tone flute
and guitar.

Written in Lilypond, rendered with Timidity++, with an assist from Scala.

I like the sound of classical guitar and flute for exploring alternate
tunings. There's a clarity to them that strings and other timbres muddy up,
at least with my current capabilities.

--------
Basics
--------

This piece was composed in a subset of 24 tET that approximates ratios of
2, 3, and 11: 0, 50, 200, 350, 550, 700, 1050, and 1200 cents.

This allows for three neutral triads: Each contains the intervals 1/1,
11/9, and 3/2 (i.e., they are 18:22:27 chords), and they are rooted on the
1/1, 11/9, and 3/2 intervals; in cents, these are approximated by
0-350-700, 350-700-1050, and 700-1050-1250.

In addition, these tones allow for the 11/9, 11/8, and 11/6 above each of
the three root tones (approximated by 0-350-550-1050, 350-700-900-1400, and
700-1050-1250-1750).

c: 0
c#: 50 = 11/8 stacked on 3/2 (down 1 octave).
d: 200 = 11/6 stacked on 11/9 (down 1 octave).
e: 350 = 11/9 stacked on 1/1.
f: 550 = 11/8 stacked on 1/1. Also, 11/6 stacked on 3/2 (down 1 octave).
g: 700 = 11/9 stacked on 11/9.
a: 900 = 11/8 stacked on 11/9.
b: 1050 = 11/6 stacked on 1/1. Also, 11/9 stacked on 3/2.
c: 1200

--> c e g c' = C neutral, c e f b = 11-ratios.
--> e g b e' = E neutral, e g a d' = 11-ratios.
--> g b d' g' = G neutral, g b c#' f' = 11-ratios.

If you'd like a navel-gazing analysis of how the scale was devised, keep
reading.

--------
Details
--------

For this piece, I applied two different ideas.

The first was the exploration of ratios with numerators of 11, both as
chords and melodically. I don't really love the sound of most 7-limit
harmony, and I really don't like the sound of 11/7, so I limited myself to
11/9, 11/8, and 11/6.

The second was fairly typical: playing triads with root movements going
down by a third. In diatonic music, this includes things like G major --> E
minor --> C major. I wanted to hear this with neutral triads.

This gives me six sets of notes:

root: 1/1
* neutral chord = 1/1, 11/9, 3/2
* 11-ratios = 11/9, 11/8, 11/6

root: 11/9
* neutral chord = 11/9, 121/81, 11/6
* 11-ratios = 121/81, 121/72, 121/54

root: 3/2
* neutral chord = 3/2, 11/6, 9/4
* 11-ratios = 11/6, 33/16, 11/4

Adding the octave, stripping out redundancy, and octave-reducing gives this
scale:

1/1
33/32
121/108
9/8
11/9
11/8
121/81
3/2
121/72
11/6
2/1

Or, in cents:

0.000
53.273
196.771
203.910
347.408
551.318
694.816
701.955
898.726
1049.363
1200.000

You can see that two neutral thirds is almost a 3/2 (i.e., (11/9)*(11/9) =
121/81 ~ 3/2), and that the 11/6 over 11/9 (121/54, or 121/108) is really
close to 9/8. Both of these differences are eliminated by tempering out
243/242.

I don't really depend on any other intervals in my composition, so I went
looking for an EDO that tempered 243/242 and didn't do much damage to my
other intervals. It turns out that 24 EDO is really good. I was surprised
by that, since I haven't enjoyed much of the quarter-tone music I've heard,
but I followed the numbers.

And that, finally, brings me to my scale:

! C:\Program Files
(x86)\Scala22\3-sets-of-ratios-of-11-staggered-by-11_9.scl
!

8
!
50.00000
200.00000
350.00000
550.00000
700.00000
900.00000
1050.00000
1200.00000

I like proper scales, but there's no way to make this scale proper without
cluttering it up -- with one scale step of 50 cents, and most others being
150-200 cents, I'd have to add a lot of little extraneous notes to get
there. So improper it is. There's only one small step in the scale -- 0 to
50 cents -- but I really like it in the one place I use it.

Then I just composed: wrote stuff, cut a lot out, changed what was left,
wrote some more, cut more out. Ultimately, I like the fact that this piece
questions some, and answers some, and then ends. And I figure that, at
worst, it's only two minutes lost to listening to it. :)

Regards,
Jake

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

This is a very emotive piece for me. And I agree with your timbre choices.
This piece and my recent Tuesday's Child is making me rethink 24 edo.

24 edo is what most non-xenharmonists think is the next logical step (be
that true or not..)

So there is value is learning how to write good music like this in the
tuning.
Your thought process helps with that aspect.

Thanks!

Chris

On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 1:24 PM, Jake Freivald <jdfreivald@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> "Lament" is a two-minute classical-ish piece in 7/4 for quarter-tone flute
> and guitar.
>
> http://soundcloud.com/jdfreivald/lament
>
> Written in Lilypond, rendered with Timidity++, with an assist from Scala.
>
> I like the sound of classical guitar and flute for exploring alternate
> tunings. There's a clarity to them that strings and other timbres muddy up,
> at least with my current capabilities.
>
> --------
> Basics
> --------
>
> This piece was composed in a subset of 24 tET that approximates ratios of
> 2, 3, and 11: 0, 50, 200, 350, 550, 700, 1050, and 1200 cents.
>
> This allows for three neutral triads: Each contains the intervals 1/1,
> 11/9, and 3/2 (i.e., they are 18:22:27 chords), and they are rooted on the
> 1/1, 11/9, and 3/2 intervals; in cents, these are approximated by
> 0-350-700, 350-700-1050, and 700-1050-1250.
>
> In addition, these tones allow for the 11/9, 11/8, and 11/6 above each of
> the three root tones (approximated by 0-350-550-1050, 350-700-900-1400, and
> 700-1050-1250-1750).
>
> c: 0
> c#: 50 = 11/8 stacked on 3/2 (down 1 octave).
> d: 200 = 11/6 stacked on 11/9 (down 1 octave).
> e: 350 = 11/9 stacked on 1/1.
> f: 550 = 11/8 stacked on 1/1. Also, 11/6 stacked on 3/2 (down 1 octave).
> g: 700 = 11/9 stacked on 11/9.
> a: 900 = 11/8 stacked on 11/9.
> b: 1050 = 11/6 stacked on 1/1. Also, 11/9 stacked on 3/2.
> c: 1200
>
> --> c e g c' = C neutral, c e f b = 11-ratios.
> --> e g b e' = E neutral, e g a d' = 11-ratios.
> --> g b d' g' = G neutral, g b c#' f' = 11-ratios.
>
> If you'd like a navel-gazing analysis of how the scale was devised, keep
> reading.
>
> --------
> Details
> --------
>
> For this piece, I applied two different ideas.
>
> The first was the exploration of ratios with numerators of 11, both as
> chords and melodically. I don't really love the sound of most 7-limit
> harmony, and I really don't like the sound of 11/7, so I limited myself to
> 11/9, 11/8, and 11/6.
>
> The second was fairly typical: playing triads with root movements going
> down by a third. In diatonic music, this includes things like G major --> E
> minor --> C major. I wanted to hear this with neutral triads.
>
> This gives me six sets of notes:
>
> root: 1/1
> * neutral chord = 1/1, 11/9, 3/2
> * 11-ratios = 11/9, 11/8, 11/6
>
> root: 11/9
> * neutral chord = 11/9, 121/81, 11/6
> * 11-ratios = 121/81, 121/72, 121/54
>
> root: 3/2
> * neutral chord = 3/2, 11/6, 9/4
> * 11-ratios = 11/6, 33/16, 11/4
>
> Adding the octave, stripping out redundancy, and octave-reducing gives this
> scale:
>
> 1/1
> 33/32
> 121/108
> 9/8
> 11/9
> 11/8
> 121/81
> 3/2
> 121/72
> 11/6
> 2/1
>
> Or, in cents:
>
> 0.000
> 53.273
> 196.771
> 203.910
> 347.408
> 551.318
> 694.816
> 701.955
> 898.726
> 1049.363
> 1200.000
>
> You can see that two neutral thirds is almost a 3/2 (i.e., (11/9)*(11/9) =
> 121/81 ~ 3/2), and that the 11/6 over 11/9 (121/54, or 121/108) is really
> close to 9/8. Both of these differences are eliminated by tempering out
> 243/242.
>
> I don't really depend on any other intervals in my composition, so I went
> looking for an EDO that tempered 243/242 and didn't do much damage to my
> other intervals. It turns out that 24 EDO is really good. I was surprised
> by that, since I haven't enjoyed much of the quarter-tone music I've heard,
> but I followed the numbers.
>
> And that, finally, brings me to my scale:
>
> ! C:\Program Files
> (x86)\Scala22\3-sets-of-ratios-of-11-staggered-by-11_9.scl
> !
>
> 8
> !
> 50.00000
> 200.00000
> 350.00000
> 550.00000
> 700.00000
> 900.00000
> 1050.00000
> 1200.00000
>
> I like proper scales, but there's no way to make this scale proper without
> cluttering it up -- with one scale step of 50 cents, and most others being
> 150-200 cents, I'd have to add a lot of little extraneous notes to get
> there. So improper it is. There's only one small step in the scale -- 0 to
> 50 cents -- but I really like it in the one place I use it.
>
> Then I just composed: wrote stuff, cut a lot out, changed what was left,
> wrote some more, cut more out. Ultimately, I like the fact that this piece
> questions some, and answers some, and then ends. And I figure that, at
> worst, it's only two minutes lost to listening to it. :)
>
> Regards,
> Jake
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Jake Freivald <jdfreivald@...>

> This piece and my recent Tuesday's Child is making me rethink 24 edo.

I don't know if I commented on Tuesday's Child. I liked the way it didn't
really feel "semi-algorithmic" or whatever you called it, even though you
apparently used some algorithmic techniques in its composition.
Stylistically, it reminded me a little bit of one of Schoenberg's piano
pieces, the Gigue from Op. 25: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJzwlkeXXoI .
It's not similar, exactly, but something about the pace and the insistence
of it, along with the wide variety of notes, made these two resonate in my
inner ear.

Our two pieces are almost opposites, in some ways. Yours seems to have a
lot of notes -- do you use all 24? -- and uses them frenetically, whereas
mine is deliberately a little understated, with some gaps and rests in it,
and has a narrower palette.

Interestingly, Tuesday's Child doesn't sound out of tune much to me,
whereas my Lament has some of that out-of-tune weirdness to it in my ears.
(That's part of what makes it sound plaintive to me.) I wonder how much of
that is related to tuning vs. how much is related to the very brief
lifespan of any given note in Tuesday's Child.

> 24 edo is what most non-xenharmonists think is the next logical step (be
> that true or not..)

I think that's not true, but it's not as off-base as I thought it was at
one point, either. For me, it's the 1/1-11/9-3/2 approximation that has
really made me re-think that. This chord sounds as natural to me now as a
just major chord does. It might be a "gateway chord" for some people into a
wider tonal universe.

I think Igs posted something recently to the XA Facebook page about
rethinking 24 EDO with an eye toward greater acceptance. I never realized
that it wasn't cool. :)

Thanks for the listen and the comments, Chris. You're a great supporter of
the people who post things to this list and the XA, and I appreciate it.

Regards,
Jake

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

Hi Jake,

Thank you for the Schoenberg - I enjoyed it! Twice!

Re: using all 24 notes.

I could provide a screenshot of the piano roll (staves are harder for this)
or the
midi file - Since I played the piece I'm not 100% sure - but by inspection I
believe the answer is yes I used all 24 notes - but not within the same
octave close in time.
But the arpeggiator applies its own logic and in practice some close notes,
even quarter tone embellishments are in fact sounded.

The semi-algorithmic technique was just applying arpeggios that moved the
notes up/down 1,2, and 3 octaves.
As is typical for this sort of implementation the order of notes played and
chord voicing changes the way the arpeggio is generated.
i.e. CGE will have a different shape than CEG or GCE.

Interesting - I felt the xen-ness as emotive inflections Lament - it didn't
sound that out of tune to me either.
Your Lament struck me as a tune that Galadriel would have had played for
her.

Chris

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗kraiggrady <kraiggrady@...>

🔗Jake Freivald <jdfreivald@...>

> Thank you for the Schoenberg - I enjoyed it! Twice!

There's a lot of Schoenberg I don't like, but his piano music is
great. Some of the things I enjoy in it are the same things I enjoy in
Xenharmonic music. I have a recording of his work by Maurizio Pollini
that seems really exceptional to me.

> by inspection I believe the answer is yes I used all 24 notes

I didn't mean it like a challenge, by the way.

> but not within the same octave close in time.

This is more what I meant. It seemed easy to get into, even with my
less-xen-than-yours ears applied to it :) which led to me wondering
how much of it was significantly different from 12-EDO. The answer
seems like, "globally, a lot; locally (in pitch or time), less so."
That's interesting.

> But the arpeggiator applies its own logic and in practice some close notes, even
> quarter tone embellishments are in fact sounded.

I definitely heard some, and I liked them. They added color without
sounding out of tune.

It makes me wonder, for those times that we're showing people what
"xenharmonic" or "microtonal" means, whether quarter-tone ornaments
might not be the easiest way to evoke the sense that 100 cents is
really wider than our minimum perception should be.

> The semi-algorithmic technique was

Thanks for the explanation.

> Interesting - I felt the xen-ness as emotive inflections

I agree to some extent, but my mind shifts between the two perceptions
somewhat. Xen harmony sounds pretty solid, but melodies surprise me a
lot. Sometimes that leads to a sense of being out of tune; sometimes
it it leads to an emotional response; sometimes both.

One of Blackwood's etudes does both, the one in 15 EDO. At about 1:41
it lands on an impossibly flat note -- I know what note it should be,
and it almost is that note, but it's not, and it can never be, even
though it sort of is -- and the result is almost painful. Not just in
an out-of-tune way, although I hear it as a strange note, but
emotionally. In my experience so far, though, that kind of thing is
relatively rare.

> Your Lament struck me as a tune that Galadriel would have had played for her.

That's probably the nicest thing anyone has ever said about anything
I've written. :)

Thanks,
Jake

On 11/18/11, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
> Hi Jake,
>
> Thank you for the Schoenberg - I enjoyed it! Twice!
>
> Re: using all 24 notes.
>
> I could provide a screenshot of the piano roll (staves are harder for this)
> or the
> midi file - Since I played the piece I'm not 100% sure - but by inspection I
> believe the answer is yes I used all 24 notes - but not within the same
> octave close in time.
> But the arpeggiator applies its own logic and in practice some close notes,
> even quarter tone embellishments are in fact sounded.
>
> The semi-algorithmic technique was just applying arpeggios that moved the
> notes up/down 1,2, and 3 octaves.
> As is typical for this sort of implementation the order of notes played and
> chord voicing changes the way the arpeggio is generated.
> i.e. CGE will have a different shape than CEG or GCE.
>
> Interesting - I felt the xen-ness as emotive inflections Lament - it didn't
> sound that out of tune to me either.
> Your Lament struck me as a tune that Galadriel would have had played for
> her.
>
> Chris
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

Hi Jake,

1st - I didn't mention - thanks for the nice words about supporting
microtonality in the previous post.
Those words are true for a lot of the members of our community including
you :-)

And your question was not seen as a challenge at all. Or I should say it is
a totally legitimate question.

If we can't seriously discuss the nuts and bolts of our music here were
else can we?
I learn from questions like that - especially when I write a piece and
think one way about it
and find others hate or like it - i.e. have a different reaction than me -
it is very useful to try to
figure out what could be the compositional choices I made that created the
perceptions you have.

I need to listen to that Blackwood etude and see if I can spot that note.

It is interesting you have brought melody as a prime emotive factor. You
probably have seen
my posts where I discus the view that we need to look more deeply into
melody despite
the importance of xenharmony. I don't think one can exist without the other
because
even in monophonic music there is an implied harmonic structure and melody
is
in inescapable when playing harmony. So devices like harmonic entropy are
incapable of capturing the entire experience despite their usefulness as
tools that explains parts
of the puzzle.

Save some lembas for me :-)

Chris

On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 5:47 PM, Jake Freivald <jdfreivald@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
>
>
> > by inspection I believe the answer is yes I used all 24 notes
>
> I didn't mean it like a challenge, by the way.
>
>
> > but not within the same octave close in time.
>
> This is more what I meant. It seemed easy to get into, even with my
> less-xen-than-yours ears applied to it :) which led to me wondering
> how much of it was significantly different from 12-EDO. The answer
> seems like, "globally, a lot; locally (in pitch or time), less so."
> That's interesting.
>
> > Interesting - I felt the xen-ness as emotive inflections
>
> I agree to some extent, but my mind shifts between the two perceptions
> somewhat. Xen harmony sounds pretty solid, but melodies surprise me a
> lot. Sometimes that leads to a sense of being out of tune; sometimes
> it it leads to an emotional response; sometimes both.
>
> One of Blackwood's etudes does both, the one in 15 EDO. At about 1:41
> it lands on an impossibly flat note -- I know what note it should be,
> and it almost is that note, but it's not, and it can never be, even
> though it sort of is -- and the result is almost painful. Not just in
> an out-of-tune way, although I hear it as a strange note, but
> emotionally. In my experience so far, though, that kind of thing is
> relatively rare.
>
>
> > Your Lament struck me as a tune that Galadriel would have had played for
> her.
>
> That's probably the nicest thing anyone has ever said about anything
> I've written. :)
>
> Thanks,
> Jake
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]