Tempo Synced Beating

Hi,

here's a new (I think) production/tuning technique:

http://soundcloud.com/kalleaho/tempo-synced-beating

Read the description for info. The example is not xenharmonic but this technique could be used with xenharmonic systems. I predict that this improves the sound of less accurate regular temperaments.

Kalle Aho

Wow, fantastic. I like the ET version best, though
the 1Hz version has something to recommend for it.
I find the 2Hz version annoying.

-Carl

At 03:15 AM 10/18/2011, you wrote:
>Hi,
>
>here's a new (I think) production/tuning technique:
>
> http://soundcloud.com/kalleaho/tempo-synced-beating
>
>Read the description for info. The example is not xenharmonic but this
>technique could be used with xenharmonic systems. I predict that this
>improves the sound of less accurate regular temperaments.
>
>Kalle Aho
>

IMHO the beauty of music and the sound lay in its irregularity and steady oscillation between chaos and order. (When I say "irregularity" I mean also that one which is created with "regular", periodic, harmonic sounds - when we combine more notes, on higher level we get sometimes consonance, sometimes dissonance.)

When you sync beating in the sound with tempo, it starts to be boring, and in fact it limits expression and the other possibilities music can offer. I would compare it to detuning two or three oscillators - perfect tuning without beats is boring, small detuning (chorus effect) makes sound living. Real music is sometimes more dead, sometimes more living from this point of view. That's OK. To have only one possibility is limiting.

But when your method is used in more elaborated way, like intentional preparation of sounds and music with some interesting ratio between beating and tempo (in the sense of polyrhyhms or polytempo), and maybe it even can be done not as jumps from one static ratio to the other, but with continual changing beating and tempo, then it can offer interesting possibilities. From this point of view the variation synchronizing both parameters will be only one of many possibilities.

Or maybe I just don't understand exactly your target...

Daniel Forro

On Oct 18, 2011, at 7:15 PM, Kalle Aho wrote:

> Hi,
>
> here's a new (I think) production/tuning technique:
>
> http://soundcloud.com/kalleaho/tempo-synced-beating
>
> Read the description for info. The example is not xenharmonic but > this technique could be used with xenharmonic systems. I predict > that this improves the sound of less accurate regular temperaments.
>
> Kalle Aho

I quite agree with Daniel's observations here

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Forró <dan.for@...> wrote:
>
> IMHO the beauty of music and the sound lay in its irregularity and
> steady oscillation between chaos and order. (When I say
> "irregularity" I mean also that one which is created with "regular",
> periodic, harmonic sounds - when we combine more notes, on higher
> level we get sometimes consonance, sometimes dissonance.)
>
> When you sync beating in the sound with tempo, it starts to be
> boring, and in fact it limits expression and the other possibilities
> music can offer. I would compare it to detuning two or three
> oscillators - perfect tuning without beats is boring, small detuning
> (chorus effect) makes sound living. Real music is sometimes more
> dead, sometimes more living from this point of view. That's OK. To
> have only one possibility is limiting.
>
> But when your method is used in more elaborated way, like intentional
> preparation of sounds and music with some interesting ratio between
> beating and tempo (in the sense of polyrhyhms or polytempo), and
> maybe it even can be done not as jumps from one static ratio to the
> other, but with continual changing beating and tempo, then it can
> offer interesting possibilities. From this point of view the
> variation synchronizing both parameters will be only one of many
> possibilities.
>
> Or maybe I just don't understand exactly your target...
>
> Daniel Forro
>
>
> On Oct 18, 2011, at 7:15 PM, Kalle Aho wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > here's a new (I think) production/tuning technique:
> >
> > http://soundcloud.com/kalleaho/tempo-synced-beating
> >
> > Read the description for info. The example is not xenharmonic but
> > this technique could be used with xenharmonic systems. I predict
> > that this improves the sound of less accurate regular temperaments.
> >
> > Kalle Aho
>

Daniel,

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Forró <dan.for@...> wrote:
>
> IMHO the beauty of music and the sound lay in its irregularity and
> steady oscillation between chaos and order. (When I say
> "irregularity" I mean also that one which is created
> with "regular", periodic, harmonic sounds - when we combine more
> notes, on higher level we get sometimes consonance, sometimes
> dissonance.)

Sorry, that's a bit too vague to me.

> When you sync beating in the sound with tempo, it starts to be
> boring, and in fact it limits expression and the other
> possibilities music can offer.

How does it limit expression? If you mean that it prevents rubato or
something like that then I'll say that's not true in practice. I've
played with this sort of tuning in real-time and perhaps surprisingly
it doesn't seem to encourage metronomic performance.

> I would compare it to detuning two or three
> oscillators - perfect tuning without beats is boring, small
> detuning (chorus effect) makes sound living.

You get a sort of chorus effect with tempered chords too. The
technique I presented also allows for detuned oscillators. But the
chorus sound becomes periodic, that's all it does. If you don't want
it to be periodic, fine.

> Real music is sometimes more dead, sometimes more living from this
> point of view. That's OK. To have only one possibility is limiting.

I agree and I'm not suggesting any one possibility.

> But when your method is used in more elaborated way, like
> intentional preparation of sounds and music with some interesting
> ratio between beating and tempo (in the sense of polyrhyhms or
> polytempo), and maybe it even can be done not as jumps from one
> static ratio to the other, but with continual changing beating and
> tempo, then it can offer interesting possibilities. From this point
> of view the variation synchronizing both parameters will be only
> one of many possibilities.

Yes, you can change the period of the beating during a piece.

> Or maybe I just don't understand exactly your target...

Look, you are obviously reading more to my suggestion than I intend.
I'm not suggesting some sequenced electronic dance music style rigid
tempo syncing straight-jacket (what a mouthful!) even if that's OK
with me too. All I mean by tempo synced beating is that the
synchronous beating has a tempo.

Kalle

I think your idea IS interesting, the only problem can be to make it
really audible and recognizable enough. And in music there are not
only harmonically sounding traditional triads (where probably your
method will be well audible) but also chords with different
structure, and dissonant, where maybe will be difficult to hear such
fine beating.

On Oct 20, 2011, at 12:44 AM, Kalle Aho wrote:

>
>
> Daniel,
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Forró <dan.for@...>
> wrote:
>>
>> IMHO the beauty of music and the sound lay in its irregularity and
>> steady oscillation between chaos and order. (When I say
>> "irregularity" I mean also that one which is created
>> with "regular", periodic, harmonic sounds - when we combine more
>> notes, on higher level we get sometimes consonance, sometimes
>> dissonance.)
>
> Sorry, that's a bit too vague to me.

I wanted to say there are not only harmonic spectra used in music,
and harmonic consonant chords made from them. We have also dissonant
chords and inharmonic spectra. I doubt you can get beating under
control in such cases. Or?

>
>> When you sync beating in the sound with tempo, it starts to be
>> boring, and in fact it limits expression and the other
>> possibilities music can offer.
>
> How does it limit expression? If you mean that it prevents rubato or
> something like that then I'll say that's not true in practice. I've
> played with this sort of tuning in real-time and perhaps surprisingly
> it doesn't seem to encourage metronomic performance.

That's good.

>> Or maybe I just don't understand exactly your target...
>
> Look, you are obviously reading more to my suggestion than I intend.

Isn't it called brainstorming?

> I'm not suggesting some sequenced electronic dance music style rigid
> tempo syncing straight-jacket (what a mouthful!) even if that's OK
> with me too. All I mean by tempo synced beating is that the
> synchronous beating has a tempo.
>
> Kalle

Of course.

For sure there's a lot of things to research and solve. Good luck!

Daniel Forro

Daniel,

my experience is that the effect is most audible in big chords,
particularly clusters. The ear picks out periodicities extremely
well, try listening to a short loop of few seconds of white noise
for some time and you'll hear out emergent recurring sounds in it.

The effect probably isn't audible with inharmonic sounds, but as in
my example, they don't disturb the perception of the effect among the
co-occurring harmonic sounds.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Forró <dan.for@...> wrote:
>
> I think your idea IS interesting, the only problem can be to make it
> really audible and recognizable enough. And in music there are not
> only harmonically sounding traditional triads (where probably your
> method will be well audible) but also chords with different
> structure, and dissonant, where maybe will be difficult to hear such
> fine beating.
>
>
> On Oct 20, 2011, at 12:44 AM, Kalle Aho wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Daniel,
> >
> > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Forró <dan.for@>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> IMHO the beauty of music and the sound lay in its irregularity and
> >> steady oscillation between chaos and order. (When I say
> >> "irregularity" I mean also that one which is created
> >> with "regular", periodic, harmonic sounds - when we combine more
> >> notes, on higher level we get sometimes consonance, sometimes
> >> dissonance.)
> >
> > Sorry, that's a bit too vague to me.
>
>
> I wanted to say there are not only harmonic spectra used in music,
> and harmonic consonant chords made from them. We have also dissonant
> chords and inharmonic spectra. I doubt you can get beating under
> control in such cases. Or?
>
> >
> >> When you sync beating in the sound with tempo, it starts to be
> >> boring, and in fact it limits expression and the other
> >> possibilities music can offer.
> >
> > How does it limit expression? If you mean that it prevents rubato or
> > something like that then I'll say that's not true in practice. I've
> > played with this sort of tuning in real-time and perhaps surprisingly
> > it doesn't seem to encourage metronomic performance.
>
> That's good.
>
> >> Or maybe I just don't understand exactly your target...
> >
> > Look, you are obviously reading more to my suggestion than I intend.
>
> Isn't it called brainstorming?
>
> > I'm not suggesting some sequenced electronic dance music style rigid
> > tempo syncing straight-jacket (what a mouthful!) even if that's OK
> > with me too. All I mean by tempo synced beating is that the
> > synchronous beating has a tempo.
> >
> > Kalle
>
> Of course.
>
> For sure there's a lot of things to research and solve. Good luck!
>
> Daniel Forro
>