Five microtonal versions of Bach's "Jesu joy of man's desiring"

Hi all,
this mail to let you know about a new video of mine, with five microtonal versions of Bach's "Jesu joy of man's desiring":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuoQnDFG-EY

Bach's choral has been tuned into:
1)Fokker's 31 just scale - centered on G
2)31tet, using septimal notes too
3)Meantone (31 quarter comma fifhts)
4)Kirnberger III (Letter to Forkel)
5)19 tet.
Tuned with Scala;
Implemented with Timidity++
Soundfont: English Chamber Organ (EngChamberOrgan.SF2);
Public domain score from Cantorion.org.

Version 2) is particular and somewhat hazardous, in that it uses septimal notes
(namely C; Bb; D;) alongside the usual ones, depending on the context they are
placed in, mostly when featured in dominant seventh chord. In this case the
septimal notes are extended to the neighbouring chords too.
This is the first time I am able to use septimal notes in Bach's music (in most
pieces I tried so far it didn't work). It sounds fine to my ears.

Probably I will post the septimal version in a dedicated video too. In this case
I will let you know as soon as possible.

Best wishes,
Claudi Meneghin

Finally, Bach, the way he's supposed to be heard. :)

Oz.

--
✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

clamengh wrote:
> Hi all,
> this mail to let you know about a new video of mine, with five microtonal versions of Bach's "Jesu joy of man's desiring":
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuoQnDFG-EY
>
> Bach's choral has been tuned into:
> 1)Fokker's 31 just scale - centered on G
> 2)31tet, using septimal notes too
> 3)Meantone (31 quarter comma fifhts)
> 4)Kirnberger III (Letter to Forkel)
> 5)19 tet.
> Tuned with Scala;
> Implemented with Timidity++
> Soundfont: English Chamber Organ (EngChamberOrgan.SF2);
> Public domain score from Cantorion.org.
>
> Version 2) is particular and somewhat hazardous, in that it uses septimal notes
> (namely C; Bb; D;) alongside the usual ones, depending on the context they are
> placed in, mostly when featured in dominant seventh chord. In this case the
> septimal notes are extended to the neighbouring chords too.
> This is the first time I am able to use septimal notes in Bach's music (in most
> pieces I tried so far it didn't work). It sounds fine to my ears.
>
> Probably I will post the septimal version in a dedicated video too. In this case
> I will let you know as soon as possible.
>
> Best wishes,
> Claudi Meneghin
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...> wrote:
>
> Finally, Bach, the way he's supposed to be heard. :)
>

Well, in which of the 5 variants is Bach "supposed to be" heard? Sure not in all of them?

As for me, the 19edo version stood out - I liked it least of the five. Major thirds too flat, semitones too large - another confirmation that 19edo is not my favorite tuning. The other variants sounded very similar to me - the 31edo version very slightly different. I liked that one a little less than the other 3, while I couldn't hear any differences among the latter.

It would be interesting to hear a 12edo version for comparison.
--
Hans Straub

Hi Hans,

Here is a version on classical guitar - it looks surprisingly easy to play -
I may have to try to learn it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkTKhnoBDto

Chris

On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 3:46 AM, hstraub64 <straub@datacomm.ch> wrote:

> **
>
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...> wrote:
> >
> > Finally, Bach, the way he's supposed to be heard. :)
> >
>
> Well, in which of the 5 variants is Bach "supposed to be" heard? Sure not
> in all of them?
>
> As for me, the 19edo version stood out - I liked it least of the five.
> Major thirds too flat, semitones too large - another confirmation that 19edo
> is not my favorite tuning. The other variants sounded very similar to me -
> the 31edo version very slightly different. I liked that one a little less
> than the other 3, while I couldn't hear any differences among the latter.
>
> It would be interesting to hear a 12edo version for comparison.
> --
> Hans Straub
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >
Ozan Yarman> > Finally, Bach, the way he's supposed to be heard. :) [...]
> >

hstraub64> Well, in which of the 5 variants is Bach "supposed to be" heard? Sure not in all of them? [...]

Many thanks to Ozan Yarman for praising, as well as to hstraub64 for asking...
My answer could be: "the second one, that with the septimal notes" :-)

The main difference between 31 meantone and Fokker just tuning is in that Fokker scale centered around G has a rather dissonant A- chord: you should notice that when the choral modulates to D and subsequently to A-, at about 3/4 of the piece.

As to 19 edo, I find it rather stern and dramatic: please have a listen at Bach gamba sonata BWV 1029 in different tunings too.
This is 19 edo:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LhxW8wFOA8
(you can find links to other versions of mine in video description: please click "show more" below the video)
It looks like that 19 edo yields better results in minor.
Best wishes,
Claudi Meneghin

clamengh wrote:
> Hi all,
> this mail to let you know about a new video of mine, with five microtonal versions of Bach's "Jesu joy of man's desiring":
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuoQnDFG-EY
>
[...]

Hi all,
as promised in my first post in this thread, I uploaded the 31-edo version with septimal notes in a dedicated video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MORojdPLVPs
This time video is not the score of the underlying music, but a slideshow of unusual views from the city of Milan.
I hope you'll forgive this partial OT.
Bests,
Claudi Meneghin

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "clamengh" <clamengh@...> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
> this mail to let you know about a new video of mine, with five microtonal versions of Bach's "Jesu joy of man's desiring":
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuoQnDFG-EY
>
> Bach's choral has been tuned into:
> 1)Fokker's 31 just scale - centered on G
> 2)31tet, using septimal notes too
> 3)Meantone (31 quarter comma fifhts)
> 4)Kirnberger III (Letter to Forkel)
> 5)19 tet.
> Tuned with Scala;
> Implemented with Timidity++
> Soundfont: English Chamber Organ (EngChamberOrgan.SF2);
> Public domain score from Cantorion.org.
>
> Version 2) is particular and somewhat hazardous, in that it uses septimal notes
> (namely C; Bb; D;) alongside the usual ones, depending on the context they are
> placed in, mostly when featured in dominant seventh chord. In this case the
> septimal notes are extended to the neighbouring chords too.
> This is the first time I am able to use septimal notes in Bach's music (in most
> pieces I tried so far it didn't work). It sounds fine to my ears.
>
> Probably I will post the septimal version in a dedicated video too. In this case
> I will let you know as soon as possible.
>
> Best wishes,
> Claudi Meneghin
>

Thanks for uploading this - you did some nice organ-ish instrumentation too, and since I've not been to Milan, the city scenes were an added bonus.

I'm sure I heard usage of the septimal 7th (exact or close approximation to 7/4) in dominant-seventh (4:5:6:7) chords and arpeggiated chord passages. Sometimes it seems you also used that same tone in scale-ish passages, but you run into an interesting problem for the ears with this:
--Keep the whole tones quite even, and therefore skip usage of the 7/4 in place of a near or exact whole tone relation between successive tones?
OR
--Always retain the harmonic integrity of the dominant seventh chord as 4:5:6:7 (or its near surrogate) and leave whole tones more uneven?

IMHO, I think it best to retain 7/4 where its harmonic function is most important, and even out the whole steps where it's more of a passing tone. In my own microtonal - tonal music, I even like to emphasize the differences between say the 7/4 and 9/5 flat seventh scale degree with appropriate underlying harmony.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "clamengh" <clamengh@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Hi all,
> as promised in my first post in this thread, I uploaded the 31-edo version with septimal notes in a dedicated video:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MORojdPLVPs
> This time video is not the score of the underlying music, but a slideshow of unusual views from the city of Milan.
> I hope you'll forgive this partial OT.
> Bests,
> Claudi Meneghin
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "clamengh" <clamengh@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> > this mail to let you know about a new video of mine, with five microtonal versions of Bach's "Jesu joy of man's desiring":
> >
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuoQnDFG-EY
> >
> > Bach's choral has been tuned into:
> > 1)Fokker's 31 just scale - centered on G
> > 2)31tet, using septimal notes too
> > 3)Meantone (31 quarter comma fifhts)
> > 4)Kirnberger III (Letter to Forkel)
> > 5)19 tet.
> > Tuned with Scala;
> > Implemented with Timidity++
> > Soundfont: English Chamber Organ (EngChamberOrgan.SF2);
> > Public domain score from Cantorion.org.
> >
> > Version 2) is particular and somewhat hazardous, in that it uses septimal notes
> > (namely C; Bb; D;) alongside the usual ones, depending on the context they are
> > placed in, mostly when featured in dominant seventh chord. In this case the
> > septimal notes are extended to the neighbouring chords too.
> > This is the first time I am able to use septimal notes in Bach's music (in most
> > pieces I tried so far it didn't work). It sounds fine to my ears.
> >
> > Probably I will post the septimal version in a dedicated video too. In this case
> > I will let you know as soon as possible.
> >
> > Best wishes,
> > Claudi Meneghin
> >
>

Dear Harold,
many thanks for your kind appreciation.
Yes: the video with Milan snapshots
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MORojdPLVPs
is the one with septimal notes (rendered in 31 edo approximation) whereas
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuoQnDFG-EY
is a comparison of five tunings of Bach's "Jesu bleibet meine Fruede": 1)Fokker's 31 just scale - centered on G
2)31tet (same audio as Milan video) - 3)Meantone (31 quarter comma fifhts - without septimal notes) - 4)Kirnberger III (Letter to Forkel) - 5) 19 tet.

This time, I adopted the following criterion for choosing "septimal note or not":
in dominant-seventh (4:5:6:7) chords, I always placed the septimal seventh :-) and extended the choice of that note to the neighbouring (in fact, preceding) chords. For instance, Bach's sequence of chords A- D7 (bars 3 & 4) was turned into A subminor (A C; E) followed by semptimal D7 (D F# A C;) (end of bar 3 - beginning of bar 4). This choice forced, by analogy, a subminor A= chord at the beginning of bar 3; on the contrary, C was kept even in the central group of bar 3.

There are many similar issues in this piece. I feel it is worthwhile telling it is the first time I succeed in rendering Bach's music using a septimal limit tuning: the main issue at stake is that, in general, a "prepared" seventh, when tuned as a septimal note, makes the preceding chord rather dissonant.

However, I agree with you in general that it best to retain 7/4 where its harmonic function is most important, and even out the whole steps where it's more of a passing tone: but, when composing, we have more degrees of freedom...

I am composing some septimal works, but they are still in a preliminary phase.

Best wishes,
Claudi Meneghin

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Harold" <harold.fortuin@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for uploading this - you did some nice organ-ish instrumentation too, and since I've not been to Milan, the city scenes were an added bonus.
>
> I'm sure I heard usage of the septimal 7th (exact or close approximation to 7/4) in dominant-seventh (4:5:6:7) chords and arpeggiated chord passages. Sometimes it seems you also used that same tone in scale-ish passages, but you run into an interesting problem for the ears with this:
> --Keep the whole tones quite even, and therefore skip usage of the 7/4 in place of a near or exact whole tone relation between successive tones?
> OR
> --Always retain the harmonic integrity of the dominant seventh chord as 4:5:6:7 (or its near surrogate) and leave whole tones more uneven?
>
> IMHO, I think it best to retain 7/4 where its harmonic function is most important, and even out the whole steps where it's more of a passing tone. In my own microtonal - tonal music, I even like to emphasize the differences between say the 7/4 and 9/5 flat seventh scale degree with appropriate underlying harmony.
>
>