Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup makemicromusic Acoustic Wicki Instrument

Hi all,

All the custom instrument work that's been done recently has motivated me to look into a summer project. My jammer (as a converted AXiS-49) has been a decent medium for making electronic music (microtonal and otherwise), but I honestly hate the lack of expression inherent to keyboards, let alone electronic keyboards hooked up to lacking software and flat piano samples.

Simply making physical contact with the strings of an acoustic instrument gives a feel that I envy, but I don't feel like investing the time to looking into guitars when I've invested so much in the wicki layout already (again, microtonally and otherwise).

This leads me to this instrument concept:
http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/IKKVTcuW4AFzzx5ZtYHd4ewLhGd72TU1HvjdQFXBRdG5K1w-yWfAF1eFmne3tWVtapp5A443Eb3rKJ8e29Rg2AGQmugvYQk/AcousticWicki.jpg

It's kind of a mix between the array mbira:
http://www.thearraymbira.com/images/gallery/mbira1.jpg
http://www.kalimbamagic.com/newsletters/newsletter3.03_assets/TheArrayMbiraFull.jpg

And the harpejji:
http://www.instablogsimages.com/images/2008/04/17/harpejji_musical_instrument_7071.jpg

With the wicki-layout, it could be generalized to any meantone tuning without over/under-tensioning the strings (I think), and it would be easy to change the original string lengths in new versions of the instrument to make it work for my favorite other temperaments like mavila, bug, and magic.

Now, I don't have any experience whatsoever in instrument craftmanship, so if I were to look into building such an instrument over the summer every step would be a learning process. It is a process in which I am VERY interested however. I REALLY want to get into instrument craftsmanship, and if I had to guess I'd say my Dad has half the tools I'd need in our basement already anyway.

So, does anyone here have any advice on where I could start to learn the basics of building such an instrument? I assume I'd need information on custom bridges, pickups, and strings; woodworking; and many other things I don't even know to think of.

Any help would be really appreciated!

John M

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

🔗ixlramp <ixlramp@...>

Hi John. I have a design idea for this. I'm a guitarist, when I looked at this image of the Wicki layout ...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9b/Isomorphic_Note_Layout.jpg

... I saw it as a 6 string guitar tuned in tritones Cb F Cb F Cb F. If you lay such a guitar flat on your lap, headstock to the left, a checkerboard pattern on the fretboard matches the Wicki layout, but in 12ET form of course. A guitar can be retuned to CbFCbFCbF easily.

However, by retuning the strings the fifths can be tempered. Also by moving the string saddle, the intonation of the string can be changed to temper the wholetone steps along the string to the necessary amount. The amount of wholetone tempering is quite large so you will probably need a modified bridge.

Lets see, 1/4 comma meantone is a fifth of 696.5 cents? So each wholetone is 193 cents? 9 wholetones per string = 9x7 = 63 cents of intonation adjustment needed on each string. Some guitars may be able to just manage this.

Of course only 1 note per string can be played, so chords may be limited.

MatC

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "John Moriarty" <JlMoriart@...> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> All the custom instrument work that's been done recently has motivated me to look into a summer project. My jammer (as a converted AXiS-49) has been a decent medium for making electronic music (microtonal and otherwise), but I honestly hate the lack of expression inherent to keyboards, let alone electronic keyboards hooked up to lacking software and flat piano samples.
>
> Simply making physical contact with the strings of an acoustic instrument gives a feel that I envy, but I don't feel like investing the time to looking into guitars when I've invested so much in the wicki layout already (again, microtonally and otherwise).
>
> This leads me to this instrument concept:
> http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/IKKVTcuW4AFzzx5ZtYHd4ewLhGd72TU1HvjdQFXBRdG5K1w-yWfAF1eFmne3tWVtapp5A443Eb3rKJ8e29Rg2AGQmugvYQk/AcousticWicki.jpg
>
> It's kind of a mix between the array mbira:
> http://www.thearraymbira.com/images/gallery/mbira1.jpg
> http://www.kalimbamagic.com/newsletters/newsletter3.03_assets/TheArrayMbiraFull.jpg
>
> And the harpejji:
> http://www.instablogsimages.com/images/2008/04/17/harpejji_musical_instrument_7071.jpg
>
> With the wicki-layout, it could be generalized to any meantone tuning without over/under-tensioning the strings (I think), and it would be easy to change the original string lengths in new versions of the instrument to make it work for my favorite other temperaments like mavila, bug, and magic.
>
> Now, I don't have any experience whatsoever in instrument craftmanship, so if I were to look into building such an instrument over the summer every step would be a learning process. It is a process in which I am VERY interested however. I REALLY want to get into instrument craftsmanship, and if I had to guess I'd say my Dad has half the tools I'd need in our basement already anyway.
>
> So, does anyone here have any advice on where I could start to learn the basics of building such an instrument? I assume I'd need information on custom bridges, pickups, and strings; woodworking; and many other things I don't even know to think of.
>
> Any help would be really appreciated!
>
> John M
>

🔗ixlramp <ixlramp@...>

🔗John Moriarty <JlMoriart@...>

Hi Mat,

Thanks for your comments...

> ... I saw it as a 6 string guitar tuned in tritones Cb F Cb F Cb F. If you lay such a guitar flat on your lap, headstock to the left, a checkerboard pattern on the fretboard matches the Wicki layout, but in 12ET form of course. A guitar can be retuned to CbFCbFCbF easily.
>
> However, by retuning the strings the fifths can be tempered. Also by moving the string saddle, the intonation of the string can be changed to temper the wholetone steps along the string to the necessary amount. The amount of wholetone tempering is quite large so you will probably need a modified bridge.
>
> Lets see, 1/4 comma meantone is a fifth of 696.5 cents? So each wholetone is 193 cents? 9 wholetones per string = 9x7 = 63 cents of intonation adjustment needed on each string. Some guitars may be able to just manage this.
>
> Of course only 1 note per string can be played, so chords may be limited.

That's the main reason I want to look into using my concept instead. I've thought of a similar design the the one you're describing, that is, two hand tapping applied to a horizontal fretboard whose strings are tuned to make it, effectively, a wicki layout. (I hadn't thought of shortening the distance to the bridge to temper the whole tones of existing guitars though, which is cool. Does the math really work out?) Unfortunately, one note per string would make it nearly monophonic for most purposes, and especially limited compared to having every single note available. I really want that option for polyphony.

It's definitely a good option to have. It would be much less of a job, I assume, to convert a guitar than to build an entire instrument. I'm willing to put the extra work in for exactly what I want, I just need to know where to start.

John M

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

John,

Having the experience of doing a re-fret and building that 11 edo stick -
IMHO I really think starting from scratch would be easier for a project like
this. You should be able to order most everything on line if you don't have
the stores available. This is with the caveat that you don't care about what
the instrument looks like - only how it plays. The major problem with using
an existing guitar are subtle things like taper of the neck (as I found out)
and of course what ever you do degrades the looks anyway unless you are
skilled at wood working. (Perhaps you are and I don't know it).

Chris

On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 9:32 PM, John Moriarty <JlMoriart@...> wrote:

>
>
>
> It's definitely a good option to have. It would be much less of a job, I
> assume, to convert a guitar than to build an entire instrument. I'm willing
> to put the extra work in for exactly what I want, I just need to know where
> to start.
>
> John M
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗ixlramp <ixlramp@...>

🔗John Moriarty <JlMoriart@...>

(response of Chris V at the bottome)

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "ixlramp" <ixlramp@...> wrote:
>
> More thoughts John ... you could bring the rows of string-ends closer together by using different gauge strings for Cb1 Cb2 Cb3, for a closer match to the Wicki layout. All the strings would be long and the string-ends within a compact space at th edge of the instrument.
> MatC
>,

First of all, thanks for putting so much thought into this. We are definitely on the same train of thought here. I considered adjusting the gauge to adjust the layout, but two things come to mind:

1. As not-a-guitarist, I don't know anything about gauge so... Can one be arbitrarily accurate with the string gauge? If so, then I could even choose a unique gauge for *each and every string* and make the layout very regular. If not, however, I would have to make a choice at where to switch gauges and that would be a little irregular. I could also just alter the gauge for the octaves, which is what it sounds like you are suggesting, but still:

2. I thought it would be cool to keep the strings on this thing as harmonic as possible (even in the low register) which would give it a unique (and maybe cleaner?) sound. Using large gauges and/or high tensions to make the layout regular (and to make the instrument more compact) would compromise this goal.

Do you think that that is a goal worth having? I mean, the isn't the reason double basses sounds better than a 3/4 bass the longer strings? If not, then using different gauges is probably a good idea.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
>
> John,
>
> Having the experience of doing a re-fret and building that 11 edo stick -
> IMHO I really think starting from scratch would be easier for a project like
> this. You should be able to order most everything on line if you don't have
> the stores available. This is with the caveat that you don't care about what
> the instrument looks like - only how it plays. The major problem with using
> an existing guitar are subtle things like taper of the neck (as I found out)
> and of course what ever you do degrades the looks anyway unless you are
> skilled at wood working. (Perhaps you are and I don't know it).
>
> Chris

Thanks for sharing your experience Chris. I don't have any serious experience with wood working and I don't mind too much how the thing looks, so that probably points me further in the starting-from-scratch direction =) If I were to ever make a second (which is looking way too far ahead), I'd probably try to make it look nice and could worry about it then. By then I'd have a cool name to slap on it too ;-)

John

🔗John Moriarty <JlMoriart@...>

Sorry about my interesting grammar in that last message. I'd just woken up and must have still been half asleep. Anyway, wouldn't these babies be amazing for microtonal strings:

http://evertune.com/

John

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "John Moriarty" <JlMoriart@...> wrote:
>
> (response of Chris V at the bottome)
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "ixlramp" <ixlramp@> wrote:
> >
> > More thoughts John ... you could bring the rows of string-ends closer together by using different gauge strings for Cb1 Cb2 Cb3, for a closer match to the Wicki layout. All the strings would be long and the string-ends within a compact space at th edge of the instrument.
> > MatC
> >,
>
> First of all, thanks for putting so much thought into this. We are definitely on the same train of thought here. I considered adjusting the gauge to adjust the layout, but two things come to mind:
>
> 1. As not-a-guitarist, I don't know anything about gauge so... Can one be arbitrarily accurate with the string gauge? If so, then I could even choose a unique gauge for *each and every string* and make the layout very regular. If not, however, I would have to make a choice at where to switch gauges and that would be a little irregular. I could also just alter the gauge for the octaves, which is what it sounds like you are suggesting, but still:
>
> 2. I thought it would be cool to keep the strings on this thing as harmonic as possible (even in the low register) which would give it a unique (and maybe cleaner?) sound. Using large gauges and/or high tensions to make the layout regular (and to make the instrument more compact) would compromise this goal.
>
> Do you think that that is a goal worth having? I mean, the isn't the reason double basses sounds better than a 3/4 bass the longer strings? If not, then using different gauges is probably a good idea.
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@> wrote:
> >
> > John,
> >
> > Having the experience of doing a re-fret and building that 11 edo stick -
> > IMHO I really think starting from scratch would be easier for a project like
> > this. You should be able to order most everything on line if you don't have
> > the stores available. This is with the caveat that you don't care about what
> > the instrument looks like - only how it plays. The major problem with using
> > an existing guitar are subtle things like taper of the neck (as I found out)
> > and of course what ever you do degrades the looks anyway unless you are
> > skilled at wood working. (Perhaps you are and I don't know it).
> >
> > Chris
>
> Thanks for sharing your experience Chris. I don't have any serious experience with wood working and I don't mind too much how the thing looks, so that probably points me further in the starting-from-scratch direction =) If I were to ever make a second (which is looking way too far ahead), I'd probably try to make it look nice and could worry about it then. By then I'd have a cool name to slap on it too ;-)
>
> John
>

🔗ixlramp <ixlramp@...>

Hi John!

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "John Moriarty" <JlMoriart@...> wrote:
> Sorry about my interesting grammar in that last message. I'd just woken up and must have still been half asleep.

Oh? I didn't notice. It was understandable :)

> Anyway, wouldn't these babies be amazing for microtonal strings:
> http://evertune.com/

It's an interesting idea.

Take a look at the D'Addario string tension guide:

http://www.daddario.com/upload/tension_chart_13934.pdf

Everything you need to understand string tension and how to choose a gauge for a specific pitch, tension and scale length. The scale length is the vibrating length, so on a Harpejji type instrument it would be the distance from the tapped fret to the bridge.

Keep in mind that the thinnest guitar plain strings such as .008 can only take 15 pounds of tension before breaking. Since your design has lots of strings, I recommend keeping the tension of each string to a minimum, around 20 pounds for the lowest string to around 15 pounds for the highest.

Will you be tapping the strings against a fret like a Harpejji? Or striking open strings like a zither?

MatC

🔗ixlramp <ixlramp@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "John Moriarty" <JlMoriart@...> wrote:
> Can one be arbitrarily accurate with the string gauge?

Yes to an extent. Guitar and bass string gauges are quite finely graded. If you decided on an ergonomic layout with a particular scale length for a certain pitch you would always be able to find a gauge that gave you a comfortable playing tension for that pitch.

Of course your choice of scale length for each pitch needs to be within certain limitations. Your choice of lowest note determines the minimum length of your lowest string, to avoid an overly thick, inharmonic string. Your choice of highest note determines the maximum length of the highest string.

>If so, then I could even choose a unique gauge for *each and every string* and make the layout very regular.

Yes, within limitations ;)

> 2. I thought it would be cool to keep the strings on this thing as harmonic as possible (even in the low register) which would give it a unique (and maybe cleaner?) sound. Using large gauges and/or high tensions to make the layout regular (and to make the instrument more compact) would compromise this goal.

Using varying gauges and having the rows of string ends close together doesn't necessarily mean stiff, inharmonic strings, if you design carefully. Given a fixed size of instrument, having (for example) Cb2 and Cb3 almost as long as Cb1, means they can be thinner strings, and therefore more harmonic.

A regular layout would limit how high the highest string is though. You wouldn't be able to play as high as the top note on a guitar (E4), but an octave below would work. It all depends on the pitch range of the instrument. Lets see, it's just under 4 octaves, you could start on the Cb (= low B) string of a 7 string guitar (= semitone below low cello C).

***************************

Another idea I had, looking at your image, is combining (for example) Cb1 Cb2 Cb3 into 1 string, Cb2 and Cb3 would be frets at the octave and double-octave of the Cb1 string. This would divide the number of strings (and the tension) by 3, but reduce polyphony. The layout of the string ends would be the same as in you image.

57 strings will put enormous tension on the body of the instrument (57x15 pounds = 855 pounds) it will have to be a big multi-laminate wood slab or a steel frame.

MatC

🔗ixlramp <ixlramp@...>

🔗John Moriarty <JlMoriart@...>

> Another idea I had, looking at your image, is combining (for example) Cb1 Cb2 Cb3 into 1 string, Cb2 and Cb3 would be frets at the octave and double-octave of the Cb1 string. This would divide the number of strings (and the tension) by 3, but reduce polyphony. The layout of the string ends would be the same as in you image.

WOW. That is a darn good idea, and a bit of a "Duh" moment for me. Though you're right that it would limit polyphony to one per pitch class, I would have to build a bench to hold so many strings for the original design.

Here's an even more sloppily drawn representation of the new concept:
/makemicromusic/files/John%20Moriarty/AcousticWickiV2.jpg

Thanks for your ideas, I think this might be the right way to go. Range will probably be decided when I start to scale it and see what range makes for the easiest combination of gauges and lengths.

Now I need to look into what technology I'll need to make this work. Securing each string individually towards the bottom of the instrument is probably an odd thing to ask of traditional tech, right? Even finding a bridge solution for the top for 19 strings would be hard I'm guessing. Maybe I should contact Marcodi about buying harpejji parts off of them? At least they have their own 24 and 16 string bridges already designed.

John M