Rhythm

There's a lot of tuning info here, of course, but over the years rhythm doesn't get mentioned much...and of course as a composer, there's a lot that can be done with different time signatures. I'm working on a CD project with Bill Hill, a master percussionist/composer, and the charts are difficult, indeed. A tune called "Molybdenum," which is sorta heavy funk/fusion, has a lot of tough time signatures...the melody goes from measures of 7/8 to 10/8, with a lot of syncopation, and the melody crossing bar lines...really hard to count or feel. Then, there's a section of 13/16, followed by 6/16 and 7/16 (still 13, but phrased differently)...then a cut time samba feel, back to 7/8 to 10/8, a bunch more 6/16 to 7/16, and that's it! I've been woodshedding this one every day, can finally read through it, but haven't rehearsed it yet with the ensemble...should be a hoot. Had to have a great sight reading friend come over and help me...he broke it down, and showed me cool ways to count it, which I woulda never thought of myself...more later...best...Stickman
www.microstick.net

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I consider rhythm to be ultra-low pitch. Polyrhythms are then Just Intonation. For example if rhythm1 cycles through 4 beats in the same time as rhythm2 cycles through 3 beats, this can be considered as 2 pitches in the frequency ratio 4:3. Polyrhythms are therefore rhythmic harmony.

I like the idea of Just Intonaion music where polyrhythms are derived from the JI scale. The rhythms are tuned to the scale.

Mat Cooper.

this is kinda like Euler's "degrees of agreeableness"

On Sat, Mar 19, 2011 at 8:37 PM, ixlramp <ixlramp@...> wrote:

>
>
> I consider rhythm to be ultra-low pitch. Polyrhythms are then Just
> Intonation. For example if rhythm1 cycles through 4 beats in the same time
> as rhythm2 cycles through 3 beats, this can be considered as 2 pitches in
> the frequency ratio 4:3. Polyrhythms are therefore rhythmic harmony.
>
> I like the idea of Just Intonaion music where polyrhythms are derived from
> the JI scale. The rhythms are tuned to the scale.
>
> Mat Cooper.
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Sat, Mar 19, 2011 at 8:37 PM, ixlramp <ixlramp@...> wrote:
>
> I consider rhythm to be ultra-low pitch. Polyrhythms are then Just Intonation. For example if rhythm1 cycles through 4 beats in the same time as rhythm2 cycles through 3 beats, this can be considered as 2 pitches in the frequency ratio 4:3. Polyrhythms are therefore rhythmic harmony.
>
> I like the idea of Just Intonaion music where polyrhythms are derived from the JI scale. The rhythms are tuned to the scale.

Meanwhile we have Chris Dave playing over here in dicot temperament:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28t939flW24

In the verse he's playing intentionally sloppy such that the kick kick
SNARE pattern either sounds like eighth note quintuplets or 32th
triplet groups of 5. So if the bar is 1/1, then the first is 10/1 and
the second is 24/5. The difference between them is 25/24, which is
vanishing here and hence you have dicot temperament.

I predict Jon Szanto will like my explanation of this even less than
the track itself :)

-Mike

Excellent music ...

MatC

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "ixlramp" <ixlramp@...> wrote:
>
> Excellent music ...

Interesting, because I'm getting a "not found".

On Sun, Mar 20, 2011 at 2:29 AM, genewardsmith
<genewardsmith@...> wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "ixlramp" <ixlramp@...> wrote:
> >
> > Excellent music ...
>
> Interesting, because I'm getting a "not found".

Hm. Try this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28t939flW24

-Mike

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "ixlramp" <ixlramp@> wrote:
> >
> > Excellent music ...
>
> Interesting, because I'm getting a "not found".

Tried another browser and it worked. 24 was clearly the best, and 14 by far the worst. 14 really stank up the joint, but 19 didn't do so well either. In order, from best to worst, 24, 23, 19, 14.

On Sun, Mar 20, 2011 at 2:45 AM, genewardsmith
<genewardsmith@...> wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@...> wrote:
>
> Tried another browser and it worked. 24 was clearly the best, and 14 by far the worst. 14 really stank up the joint, but 19 didn't do so well either. In order, from best to worst, 24, 23, 19, 14.

Huh?? Is this the wrong thread?

-Mike

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:
>
> On Sun, Mar 20, 2011 at 2:45 AM, genewardsmith
> <genewardsmith@...> wrote:
> >
> > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@> wrote:
> >
> > Tried another browser and it worked. 24 was clearly the best, and 14 by far the worst. 14 really stank up the joint, but 19 didn't do so well either. In order, from best to worst, 24, 23, 19, 14.
>
> Huh?? Is this the wrong thread?

Yup; I was trying to reply about "14 vs 19 vs 23 vs 24". I think it would be cool if Igs added 17 and 29, so we could compare 14 vs 17 vs 19 vs 23 vs 24 vs 29. It's interesting though maybe not surprising that Igs and I hear it so differently.

On Sun, Mar 20, 2011 at 2:52 AM, genewardsmith
<genewardsmith@...> wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:
> >
> > On Sun, Mar 20, 2011 at 2:45 AM, genewardsmith
> > <genewardsmith@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Tried another browser and it worked. 24 was clearly the best, and 14 by far the worst. 14 really stank up the joint, but 19 didn't do so well either. In order, from best to worst, 24, 23, 19, 14.
> >
> > Huh?? Is this the wrong thread?
>
> Yup; I was trying to reply about "14 vs 19 vs 23 vs 24". I think it would be cool if Igs added 17 and 29, so we could compare 14 vs 17 vs 19 vs 23 vs 24 vs 29. It's interesting though maybe not surprising that Igs and I hear it so differently.

Hold on, you like 23 more than 14? I thought the reason you hated 14
so much was that the fifths were so awfully flat?

-Mike

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:
> I predict Jon Szanto will like my explanation of this even less than
> the track itself :)

Bingo - we have a winner! However, "even less" is a bit of a misnomer, as you already predict I won't like the track.

In a way, that's true, because the drum track makes me lose my dinner. If only the vibe of the track itself didn't have to so self-consciously try to avoid an ACTUAL POCKET...

... ahem. I'll calm down now.

I don't need to trumpet that in addition to Partch, I've played a lot of music with very cerebral and complex rhythms - plenty of Xenakis, Cage "Constructions", Lang, etc. All well and good. What I find disingenuous is to put out groove music with no groove. That is just fucked up.

On Sun, Mar 20, 2011 at 3:11 AM, jonszanto <jszanto@...> wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:
> > I predict Jon Szanto will like my explanation of this even less than
> > the track itself :)
>
> Bingo - we have a winner! However, "even less" is a bit of a misnomer, as you already predict I won't like the track.
>
> In a way, that's true, because the drum track makes me lose my dinner. If only the vibe of the track itself didn't have to so self-consciously try to avoid an ACTUAL POCKET...

Dicot is a bit too low-accuracy for some people, I guess. :\

> ... ahem. I'll calm down now.
>
> I don't need to trumpet that in addition to Partch, I've played a lot of music with very cerebral and complex rhythms - plenty of Xenakis, Cage "Constructions", Lang, etc. All well and good. What I find disingenuous is to put out groove music with no groove. That is just fucked up.

Yes, your cerebral, complex street cred was established when I found
out that you were Matt Cameron's drum teacher. That notwithstanding,
this is the hippest, most cerebral, complex rhythm, hardest grooving
rhythm ever invented! My cerebrum grew 0.3 inches when I first heard
it. What do you think of this one?

http://www.youtube.com/user/drumminggenius#p/u/4/M9hwNJr_bXo

-Mike

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:

> Hold on, you like 23 more than 14? I thought the reason you hated 14
> so much was that the fifths were so awfully flat?

And 23 has a fifth, you think? It's not so clear. Is 678 cents a fifth? That's about like the 675 fifth of 16, which I know I have trouble hearing as a fifth.

On Sun, Mar 20, 2011 at 3:35 AM, genewardsmith
<genewardsmith@...> wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:
>
> > Hold on, you like 23 more than 14? I thought the reason you hated 14
> > so much was that the fifths were so awfully flat?
>
> And 23 has a fifth, you think? It's not so clear. Is 678 cents a fifth? That's about like the 675 fifth of 16, which I know I have trouble hearing as a fifth.

Do you hear it as a new interval? I've heard 650 cents take on a
fifth-like quality before. But in general, yes, it sounds like a
fifth, and mavila is one of my favorite tunings. If you pick a nice
timbre for it, one where 3 is attenuated, it just sounds to me like a
slightly flat, complex, cerebral sounding, narrow fifth. If 3 isn't
attenuated, say with the GM reed organ, 675 cents makes me wish I were
dead. But how are you judging 6:7:9 in these tunings if you don't hear
the 678 cents as 3/2?

-Mike

Mike-o,

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:
>
> Dicot is a bit too low-accuracy for some people, I guess. :\

Hey, if you enjoy walking down the street with a limp, go for it. :)

> What do you think of this one?
>
> http://www.youtube.com/user/drumminggenius#p/u/4/M9hwNJr_bXo

I certainly didn't mean to imply I didn't enjoy Chris Dave's playing (which in this case is just 5/8 with some grease). On Tuesday, I'm spending an evening with the incomparable Joey Baron, so I'll get back to you on the ephemeral and endless search for the Complex Groove That Still Swings...

Cheers,
Jon

ixlramp>"Polyrhythms are then Just Intonation. For example if rhythm1 cycles
through 4 beats in the same time as rhythm2 cycles through 3 beats,
this can be considered as 2 pitches in the frequency ratio 4:3."

Interesting...though what does 4:3 mean far as expression?  Unlike in tonality, I've found 4:3 does not mean "less tense".  The some things I've found through experience that consistently works for tensity are either the slowing down of rhythm or the lessening of volume in beats.  Another is that beats that repeat less (IE long measures/timings) can have more of the above types of tension without sounding too tense.

  Therefore I always take the road of "if one part of a beat gets very fast/hectic...the other part of a beat must slow down or get softer to balance it out".  Also, of course, a really fast drum roll is often followed by a much softer or slower part to balance it out. 
----------------
   The perhaps overly simplify it...I swear you want to look at the "average tempo" in a short part of a drumline to determine the tensity and add/remove extra drums to achieve the desired tension.
  If you do that...what "meter" you are in does not really matter (minus longer meters being often less tense than shorter ones...so long as you keep the "average tension" under control...and you can pick pretty much whatever meter/meters you feel like and still achieve a stable sounding drumline.

--- On Sat, 3/19/11, ixlramp <ixlramp@...> wrote:

From: ixlramp <ixlramp@...>
Subject: [MMM] Re: Rhythm
To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, March 19, 2011, 5:37 PM

I consider rhythm to be ultra-low pitch. Polyrhythms are then Just Intonation. For example if rhythm1 cycles through 4 beats in the same time as rhythm2 cycles through 3 beats, this can be considered as 2 pitches in the frequency ratio 4:3. Polyrhythms are therefore rhythmic harmony.

I like the idea of Just Intonaion music where polyrhythms are derived from the JI scale. The rhythms are tuned to the scale.

Mat Cooper.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@...> wrote:
>
Tried another browser and it worked. 24 was clearly the best, and 14 by far the worst. 14 really stank up the joint, but 19 didn't do so well either. In order, from best to worst, 24, 23, 19, 14.
>

Now THAT is fascinating. You prefer 23 to 14 AND 19? My mind is truly blown, because 23 is straight-up BUG temperament, with fifths about 22 cents flat (the flattest of the bunch, flatter even than a 40/27 wolf), and the melodic steps are about 104 cents and 157 cents, which I thought were the most awkward of the bunch. The only thing the 23 really has going for it is that the 7/6's are nearly pure...but really only about 3 cents better than 14's.

It's especially interesting that you put 23 BETWEEN 24 and 19, as I would have expected you to rank them according to the purity of the fifths, but you didn't. You liked the one with the best fifths most, then the one with the worst fifths, then the one with the second-best fifths, and then the one with the third-best fifths.

I just don't know what to say!

-Igs

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@...> wrote:
>
Yup; I was trying to reply about "14 vs 19 vs 23 vs 24". I think it would be cool if Igs added 17 and 29, so we could compare 14 vs 17 vs 19 vs 23 vs 24 vs 29. It's interesting though maybe not surprising that Igs and I hear it so differently.
>

29 I could do, since it's also got the Semaphore thing happening, but 17 would require a new piece of music. Well, I suppose I could try tuning it in the 4L+5s MOS...that might be an interesting effect, like tuning meantone music to mavila. Does that sound like a good idea?

I would like to add: if you indeed don't hear the 678-cent interval in 23 as a "fifth", I have to say I don't really hear the 250-cent interval in 24 as a 7/6. That's one of the reasons I liked the 24-EDO version the least: I thought it ruined the septimal character of the harmonies.

-Igs

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "cityoftheasleep" <igliashon@...> wrote:

> Now THAT is fascinating. You prefer 23 to 14 AND 19? My mind is truly blown, because 23 is straight-up BUG temperament, with fifths about 22 cents flat (the flattest of the bunch, flatter even than a 40/27 wolf), and the melodic steps are about 104 cents and 157 cents, which I thought were the most awkward of the bunch. The only thing the 23 really has going for it is that the 7/6's are nearly pure...but really only about 3 cents better than 14's.

I was a little surprised too, but I'm just going by what I heard. I doubt if I was hearing beep temperament, because I doubt if you *can* hear beep temperament without adjusting the partial tones. And 7/6 is by no means the only thing the 5\23 generator has going for it. One step gives you a low subminor third, but three steps gives you a nearly pure 11/7, four steps gives you an 11/6, five steps gives you a nearly pure 17/8, six steps gives you a 32/13 (or 42/17 if you care to go all the way to the 21 limit), eight steps gives you a fine 10/3, ten steps brings up 9/2. What makes you think I wasn't hearing some of that rather than beep?

The list of intervals I cited gives the 2.9.15.21.33.13.17 subgroup, by the way, which I think I'll take a look at.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "cityoftheasleep" <igliashon@...> wrote:

> I would like to add: if you indeed don't hear the 678-cent interval in 23 as a "fifth", I have to say I don't really hear the 250-cent interval in 24 as a 7/6. That's one of the reasons I liked the 24-EDO version the least: I thought it ruined the septimal character of the harmonies.

We were both probably hearing it more as 15/13. As for the septimal character of the harmonies, I suspect that's why 14 was giving me a headache.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@...> wrote:
> I was a little surprised too, but I'm just going by what I heard. I doubt if I was hearing
> beep temperament, because I doubt if you *can* hear beep temperament without
> adjusting the partial tones.

Ah, I see Paul's influence on you is not entirely negligible. Regardless, the scale in 23-EDO is numerically practically identical to POTE Beep. So it's as Beep as you can get on a piano, anyway.

> And 7/6 is by no means the only thing the 5\23 generator has going for it.
> One step gives you a low subminor third, but three steps gives you a nearly pure 11/7,
> four steps gives you an 11/6, five steps gives you a nearly pure 17/8, six steps gives
> you a 32/13 (or 42/17 if you care to go all the way to the 21 limit), eight steps gives
> you a fine 10/3, ten steps brings up 9/2. What makes you think I wasn't hearing some of > that rather than beep?

Well, there may have been a couple 6:7:10 and 6:7:11 chords in a few spots, but most of the chords are 0-261-678 cents or 0-417-678 cents (or inversions thereof). The latter definitely sounds like a bad 4:5:6 to me, suggesting that I am indeed hearing Beep temperament (at least when that chord is playing; the minors sound like bad 6:7:9's to me, so it's a toss-up). YMMV, but as the piece is mostly at least triadic in harmony, I don't expect that those good dyads give enough of a boost to overcome the discordance of the omnipresent wolf fifths and fourths. Perhaps you just like those wolfy intervals more than you realize?

-Igs

Excellent - I really love the vibe on this one. Thanks for pointing it out.

On Sun, Mar 20, 2011 at 12:17 AM, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>wrote:

>
>
>
>
> Meanwhile we have Chris Dave playing over here in dicot temperament:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28t939flW24
>
> In the verse he's playing intentionally sloppy such that the kick kick
> SNARE pattern either sounds like eighth note quintuplets or 32th
> triplet groups of 5. So if the bar is 1/1, then the first is 10/1 and
> the second is 24/5. The difference between them is 25/24, which is
> vanishing here and hence you have dicot temperament.
>
>
> -Mike
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

this is an excellent idea.

On Sat, Mar 19, 2011 at 8:37 PM, ixlramp <ixlramp@...> wrote:

>
>
> I consider rhythm to be ultra-low pitch. Polyrhythms are then Just
> Intonation. For example if rhythm1 cycles through 4 beats in the same time
> as rhythm2 cycles through 3 beats, this can be considered as 2 pitches in
> the frequency ratio 4:3. Polyrhythms are therefore rhythmic harmony.
>
> I like the idea of Just Intonaion music where polyrhythms are derived from
> the JI scale. The rhythms are tuned to the scale.
>
> Mat Cooper.
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Sun, Mar 20, 2011 at 12:35 PM, cityoftheasleep
<igliashon@...> wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@...> wrote:
> >
> Tried another browser and it worked. 24 was clearly the best, and 14 by far the worst. 14 really stank up the joint, but 19 didn't do so well either. In order, from best to worst, 24, 23, 19, 14.
> >
>
> Now THAT is fascinating. You prefer 23 to 14 AND 19? My mind is truly blown, because 23 is straight-up BUG temperament, with fifths about 22 cents flat (the flattest of the bunch, flatter even than a 40/27 wolf), and the melodic steps are about 104 cents and 157 cents, which I thought were the most awkward of the bunch. The only thing the 23 really has going for it is that the 7/6's are nearly pure...but really only about 3 cents better than 14's.

Why do you say this? 23 is a pretty stereotypical mavila temperament;
it's about optimal for mavila. I don't think 23 tempers out 27/25,
correct me if I'm wrong.

-Mike

On Sun, Mar 20, 2011 at 3:54 AM, jonszanto <jszanto@...> wrote:
>
> Mike-o,
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:
> >
> > Dicot is a bit too low-accuracy for some people, I guess. :\
>
> Hey, if you enjoy walking down the street with a limp, go for it. :)

That's what it sounds like, like instead of walking at a steady pace,
I'm staggering around drunk.

> > What do you think of this one?
> >
> > http://www.youtube.com/user/drumminggenius#p/u/4/M9hwNJr_bXo
>
> I certainly didn't mean to imply I didn't enjoy Chris Dave's playing (which in this case is just 5/8 with some grease). On Tuesday, I'm spending an evening with the incomparable Joey Baron, so I'll get back to you on the ephemeral and endless search for the Complex Groove That Still Swings...

I'm sad to say I'm not hip to the incomparable Joey Baron, but if you
can point me towards some good tunes of his...

-Mike

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "cityoftheasleep" <igliashon@...> wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@> wrote:
> > I was a little surprised too, but I'm just going by what I heard. I doubt if I was hearing
> > beep temperament, because I doubt if you *can* hear beep temperament without
> > adjusting the partial tones.
>
> Ah, I see Paul's influence on you is not entirely negligible.

He can be pretty insistent.

Regardless, the scale in 23-EDO is numerically practically identical to POTE Beep. So it's as Beep as you can get on a piano, anyway.

Yes, but what does that really mean? At some point a theoretical temperament fails to be an actual one because it's simply too far off for its intervals to be heard as the approximations they are supposed to be.

> YMMV, but as the piece is mostly at least triadic in harmony, I don't expect that those good dyads give enough of a boost to overcome the discordance of the omnipresent wolf fifths and fourths. Perhaps you just like those wolfy intervals more than you realize?

Maybe, but I dislike them in mavila, so I wonder. The 0-261-678 chord has a low 7/6 on the bottom and a superb 14/11 on top, making up your wolfy, and I suspect those good intervals are doing more than you give them credit for. Anyway I did say 24 was by far the best.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:
> Why do you say this? 23 is a pretty stereotypical mavila temperament;
> it's about optimal for mavila. I don't think 23 tempers out 27/25,
> correct me if I'm wrong.

http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/Bug+family

POTE Generator: 260.388. Pretty close to 5\23.

-Igs

On Sun, Mar 20, 2011 at 4:53 PM, cityoftheasleep
<igliashon@...> wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:
> > Why do you say this? 23 is a pretty stereotypical mavila temperament;
> > it's about optimal for mavila. I don't think 23 tempers out 27/25,
> > correct me if I'm wrong.
>
> http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/Bug+family
>
> POTE Generator: 260.388. Pretty close to 5\23.

OK, I see. So you're assuming that the 260.388 is the 6/5. I guess the
patent val for 23 doesn't support bug, but you can find a bug-like
scale within it by just using a different val.

-Mike

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:
> That's what it sounds like, like instead of walking at a steady pace,
> I'm staggering around drunk.

Heh, for that I just like to tip a few and then listen to Tower of Power... :)

> I'm sad to say I'm not hip to the incomparable Joey Baron, but if you
> can point me towards some good tunes of his...

I'll get back to you off-list, probably after Tuesday. He's one of those players who has not only had a long career, but seems to have that chameleon-like ability to channel almost any kind of style, from straight-ahead to completely 'out' playing. Let me be somewhat intelligent about selection for you, I need to get a broader perspective too, which hopefully the night coming up will shed light on...

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@...> wrote:
> Yes, but what does that really mean? At some point a theoretical temperament fails to be an > actual one because it's simply too far off for its intervals to be heard as the approximations > they are supposed to be.

Of course. But is Bug too far out? I think the jury's still out on that. I think the major chords still sound like 4:5:6's.

> Maybe, but I dislike them in mavila, so I wonder. The 0-261-678 chord has a low 7/6 on
> the bottom and a superb 14/11 on top, making up your wolfy, and I suspect those good
> intervals are doing more than you give them credit for.

A 14/11 above a 7/6 comes out to a 49/33, and to represent the triad in consecutive harmonics we'd have to do it 66:77:98. I wonder how this ranks on triadic entropy? It seems like "almost" a 6:7:9.

-Igs

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:

> OK, I see. So you're assuming that the 260.388 is the 6/5. I guess the
> patent val for 23 doesn't support bug, but you can find a bug-like
> scale within it by just using a different val.

Yes, exactly. I think 23 is an inconsistent ET in the 5-limit.

-Igs

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:

> OK, I see. So you're assuming that the 260.388 is the 6/5. I guess the
> patent val for 23 doesn't support bug, but you can find a bug-like
> scale within it by just using a different val.

<23 36 64 64| tempers out 27/25, 21/20 and 262144/234375, and is even more messed up than the patent val.

This is good view. Kind of polytempos (polytempi?). I used this attitude in more of my works, some are even based on it. On each first beat there was a knot, common point for each part, and then each part had different number of notes in the bar (written as n-tuplet for other than 2, 4, 8, 16, 32..).

Daniel Forro

On Mar 20, 2011, at 9:37 AM, ixlramp wrote:

> I consider rhythm to be ultra-low pitch. Polyrhythms are then Just > Intonation. For example if rhythm1 cycles through 4 beats in the > same time as rhythm2 cycles through 3 beats, this can be considered > as 2 pitches in the frequency ratio 4:3. Polyrhythms are therefore > rhythmic harmony.
>
> I like the idea of Just Intonaion music where polyrhythms are > derived from the JI scale. The rhythms are tuned to the scale.
>
> Mat Cooper.

Edited for clarity, typing too quickly...

Strictly speaking it would be x-tuplets/y-tubplets which would be comparable to,
or part of a contiuum with, "JI" ( more properly in this case "rational
tuning").

Polyrhythms can and usually do have various accents within the complex meters
involved, so they'd very rarely be "the same thing only faster" as the
consistent given harmonic spectra) rhythmic motion inherent when pitches are
superimposed.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Forró <dan.for@...> wrote:
>
> This is good view. Kind of polytempos (polytempi?). I used this
> attitude in more of my works, some are even based on it. On each
> first beat there was a knot, common point for each part, and then
> each part had different number of notes in the bar (written as n-
> tuplet for other than 2, 4, 8, 16, 32..).
>
> Daniel Forro
>
> On Mar 20, 2011, at 9:37 AM, ixlramp wrote:
>
> > I consider rhythm to be ultra-low pitch. Polyrhythms are then Just
> > Intonation. For example if rhythm1 cycles through 4 beats in the
> > same time as rhythm2 cycles through 3 beats, this can be considered
> > as 2 pitches in the frequency ratio 4:3. Polyrhythms are therefore
> > rhythmic harmony.
> >
> > I like the idea of Just Intonaion music where polyrhythms are
> > derived from the JI scale. The rhythms are tuned to the scale.
> >
> > Mat Cooper.
>

Arg, still missed the "(" before "given", in the second paragraph.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "lobawad" <lobawad@...> wrote:
>
> Edited for clarity, typing too quickly...
>
> Strictly speaking it would be x-tuplets/y-tubplets which would be comparable to,
> or part of a contiuum with, "JI" ( more properly in this case "rational
> tuning").
>
> Polyrhythms can and usually do have various accents within the complex meters
> involved, so they'd very rarely be "the same thing only faster" as the
> consistent given harmonic spectra) rhythmic motion inherent when pitches are
> superimposed.
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Forró <dan.for@> wrote:
> >
> > This is good view. Kind of polytempos (polytempi?). I used this
> > attitude in more of my works, some are even based on it. On each
> > first beat there was a knot, common point for each part, and then
> > each part had different number of notes in the bar (written as n-
> > tuplet for other than 2, 4, 8, 16, 32..).
> >
> > Daniel Forro
> >
> > On Mar 20, 2011, at 9:37 AM, ixlramp wrote:
> >
> > > I consider rhythm to be ultra-low pitch. Polyrhythms are then Just
> > > Intonation. For example if rhythm1 cycles through 4 beats in the
> > > same time as rhythm2 cycles through 3 beats, this can be considered
> > > as 2 pitches in the frequency ratio 4:3. Polyrhythms are therefore
> > > rhythmic harmony.
> > >
> > > I like the idea of Just Intonaion music where polyrhythms are
> > > derived from the JI scale. The rhythms are tuned to the scale.
> > >
> > > Mat Cooper.
> >
>

   There's a lot of talk here about different meters intersecting at Just ratios and such.

   I proposed an informal contest: compose a rhythm using no more than 3 different drums and 3 drums at once.  Let's see how rotation each of our ideas can actually create... 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I've learnt to tap out a 3:2 and 4:3 polytempo with left and right hands (of course the 3:2 is easy). It's an interesting experience to split the body this way and become a rhythmic interval of a fifth or fourth.

If I'm grooving to some 4/4 music I can usually count out 5 beats to the measure, feels quite natural. Seems to me that humans have an ability not only to entrain to a beat but entrain polytemporarily.

MatC

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "lobawad" <lobawad@...> wrote:
> Polyrhythms can and usually do have various accents within the complex meters
> involved, so they'd very rarely be "the same thing only faster" as the
> consistent given harmonic spectra) rhythmic motion inherent when pitches are
> superimposed.

Yep I agree.
>The rhythms are tuned to the scale.
What I mean by this is I would divide the frequencies of the scale by 2 until they become bpm, and use the bpm for the tempo(s). This way the rhythm really is tuned to the scale.

MatC

Here are some examples from my works:

Pentagram (1977)
http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=4622103
n-tuplet polytempos

Digital Music 02/87 - Organ (1987)
http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=6549981
4:30 - 8:05 n-tuplet polytempos
8:06 - 12:20 polyrhythms and polymetrics

Preludio Metallico (1991)
http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=4523534
40 different n-tuplets together in the same time span of 4 minutes (number of notes 1 to 40, each of 40 instruments different)

Concertino for synthesizers, drums and percussion (1998)
http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=4519978
2:35 - 4:35 n-tuplet polytempo
6:55 - 8:05 five different tempos together
8:09 - 9:42 n-tuplet polytempos, written as irrational time signatures 5/5, 6/6, 7/7, 9/9 (plus 4/4 in synthesizer part)

Kenrokuen, Part 3 (2004)
http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=4522570
n-tuplet polytempos

Kenrokuen, Part 5
http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=4522542
n-tuplet polytempos

Daniel Forro

On Mar 23, 2011, at 2:28 AM, Michael wrote:

> There's a lot of talk here about different meters intersecting > at Just ratios and such.
>
> I proposed an informal contest: compose a rhythm using no more > than 3 different drums and 3 drums at once. Let's see how rotation > each of our ideas can actually create...

I've taught myself to play 2 against 3 and 5, 3 against 5 and 7, 4 against 5 and 7, and 5 against 8. I've tried to get 9's but I can't seem to do it (yet). I have a friend who's an amazing drummer/percussionist who can do a full 4:5:6:7 (different tempo on each limb), but that's pretty much out of my league. At one point I did have a 3:4:5 down pretty good, but my days of woodshedding on drum kit are well behind me.

-Igs

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "ixlramp" <ixlramp@...> wrote:
>
> I've learnt to tap out a 3:2 and 4:3 polytempo with left and right hands (of course the 3:2 is easy). It's an interesting experience to split the body this way and become a rhythmic interval of a fifth or fourth.
>
> If I'm grooving to some 4/4 music I can usually count out 5 beats to the measure, feels quite natural. Seems to me that humans have an ability not only to entrain to a beat but entrain polytemporarily.
>
> MatC
>

On Tue, Mar 22, 2011 at 10:53 PM, cityoftheasleep
<igliashon@...> wrote:
>
> I've taught myself to play 2 against 3 and 5, 3 against 5 and 7, 4 against 5 and 7, and 5 against 8. I've tried to get 9's but I can't seem to do it (yet). I have a friend who's an amazing drummer/percussionist who can do a full 4:5:6:7 (different tempo on each limb), but that's pretty much out of my league. At one point I did have a 3:4:5 down pretty good, but my days of woodshedding on drum kit are well behind me.
>
> -Igs

Igs - try these two experiments:

1) While playing in 5/4, accent every third sixteenth note. So it
should look like ||: ONE e and A | two e AND a | three E and a | FOUR
e and A | five e AND a :||. When you get to the end, just start the
pattern back over at ONE, even though three accents after the and of
five should actually be one E. After doing this a few times, your
brain will probably start to hear that you're tapping 7 roughly equal
beats per measure. Now straighten the 7 beats out. Congratulations,
you're now playing 7 against 5, and also you've just tempered out
21/20 as well.

2) While playing in 3/4, accent every third sixteenth note. So it
should look like ONE e and A two e AND a three E and a FOUR e and A
one e AND a two E and a THREE e and A four e AND a, going forever.
Don't let there be any skips or restart the pattern like I said last
time just keep accenting every third sixteenth note. Now, while you're
doing this, flip your brain around into hearing the pattern of accents
as a new beat. Congratulations, you have now transposed the rhythm up
a perfect fourth. Now go back to the old one, and this time, kind of
flip your brain into the new one while keeping the old one going. Play
a drum beat over the new one, while always being aware of the old 4.
Congratulations, you are now playing a fourth in rhythmic harmony. If
you can pull this off you're also at the cutting edge of rhythm these
days.

I predict Jon Szanto will like #2 better than #1, because #1 is kind
of sloppy :\

-Mike

I can tap 4 layer polytempo patterns with hands and legs, any combination, but it's practically unusable in real music, because music has changes and it's not easy to jump to another combination quickly. But in piano and organ improvisations I can use up to three layers.

Much more I use this trick in my scores, so much that it became typical for my style. With some consequences - I had always problems with common musicians unable to perform it. They are shocked to see even so simple thing like a triplet crossing bar line, or irrational time signatures like 7/7, nothing to say about such like 4/5 or 5+2/3 on 4... That was main reason I started with electronic and computer music (about 33 years ago) where everything is easily possible. For me MIDI and sequencing was and still is a revelation.

Daniel Forro

On Mar 23, 2011, at 11:53 AM, cityoftheasleep wrote:

> I've taught myself to play 2 against 3 and 5, 3 against 5 and 7, 4 > against 5 and 7, and 5 against 8. I've tried to get 9's but I > can't seem to do it (yet). I have a friend who's an amazing > drummer/percussionist who can do a full 4:5:6:7 (different tempo on > each limb), but that's pretty much out of my league. At one point > I did have a 3:4:5 down pretty good, but my days of woodshedding on > drum kit are well behind me.
>
> -Igs
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "ixlramp" <ixlramp@...> wrote:
>>
>> I've learnt to tap out a 3:2 and 4:3 polytempo with left and right >> hands (of course the 3:2 is easy). It's an interesting experience >> to split the body this way and become a rhythmic interval of a >> fifth or fourth.
>>
>> If I'm grooving to some 4/4 music I can usually count out 5 beats >> to the measure, feels quite natural. Seems to me that humans have >> an ability not only to entrain to a beat but entrain polytemporarily.
>>
>> MatC
>>

Yes, this is a way how to learn it. To find a result from multiplying two numbers we want, and then to divide them in two different ways.

So 4 and 5 gives 20, and we have to divide this 5x4 and 4x5.

7 with 3 gives 21, one layer will be divided as 3x7, another one 7x3.

It starts to be more interesting when we do this with n-tuplets, include pauses, and nested n-tuplets :-) And of course melodic patterns can have different numbers against rhythm patterns, and we can work with accents, articulation, octave transpositions of some notes, and arrangement.

Easy.

Daniel Forro

On Mar 23, 2011, at 12:12 PM, Mike Battaglia wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 22, 2011 at 10:53 PM, cityoftheasleep
> <igliashon@...> wrote:
>>
>> I've taught myself to play 2 against 3 and 5, 3 against 5 and 7, 4 >> against 5 and 7, and 5 against 8. I've tried to get 9's but I >> can't seem to do it (yet). I have a friend who's an amazing >> drummer/percussionist who can do a full 4:5:6:7 (different tempo >> on each limb), but that's pretty much out of my league. At one >> point I did have a 3:4:5 down pretty good, but my days of >> woodshedding on drum kit are well behind me.
>>
>> -Igs
>
> Igs - try these two experiments:
>
> 1) While playing in 5/4, accent every third sixteenth note. So it
> should look like ||: ONE e and A | two e AND a | three E and a | FOUR
> e and A | five e AND a :||. When you get to the end, just start the
> pattern back over at ONE, even though three accents after the and of
> five should actually be one E. After doing this a few times, your
> brain will probably start to hear that you're tapping 7 roughly equal
> beats per measure. Now straighten the 7 beats out. Congratulations,
> you're now playing 7 against 5, and also you've just tempered out
> 21/20 as well.
>
> 2) While playing in 3/4, accent every third sixteenth note. So it
> should look like ONE e and A two e AND a three E and a FOUR e and A
> one e AND a two E and a THREE e and A four e AND a, going forever.
> Don't let there be any skips or restart the pattern like I said last
> time just keep accenting every third sixteenth note. Now, while you're
> doing this, flip your brain around into hearing the pattern of accents
> as a new beat. Congratulations, you have now transposed the rhythm up
> a perfect fourth. Now go back to the old one, and this time, kind of
> flip your brain into the new one while keeping the old one going. Play
> a drum beat over the new one, while always being aware of the old 4.
> Congratulations, you are now playing a fourth in rhythmic harmony. If
> you can pull this off you're also at the cutting edge of rhythm these
> days.
>
> I predict Jon Szanto will like #2 better than #1, because #1 is kind
> of sloppy :\
>
> -Mike
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

ok, I took this very, very literally.

online play http://alonetone.com/charlieferret/tracks/ji-percussion

download
http://micro.soonlabel.com/various/daily20110323-gpo-JI-percs-fib-1-2-3-4.mp3

I have tried to make a literal representation of this from Mat Cooper:

"I consider rhythm to be ultra-low pitch. Polyrhythms are then Just
Intonation. For example if rhythm1 cycles through 4 beats in the same time
as rhythm2 cycles through 3 beats, this can be considered as 2 pitches in
the frequency ratio 4:3. Polyrhythms are therefore rhythmic harmony.

I like the idea of Just Intonation music where polyrhythms are derived from
the JI scale. The rhythms are tuned to the scale.

Mat Cooper."

The cymbal is in the Fibonacci series counting by measures. Then there is a
drum at every whole, half, half tripelet, and quarter note. This gives a
series of 1:2:3:4 - which are off set slightly since in the real world the
sound source would be out of phase. And then to top it off I gradually
change the tempo from 10 bpm to 1000 bpm (as fast as Sonar X1 will go). My
hope was that you'd hear a pitch - but I don't really. Perhaps if I change
instrument.... hmmm.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hey Chris, I think it might work if you use short, sharp, high pitch percussion sounds, or clicks. And make sure they're going fairly fast even at 10bpm, at least one click per second.

MatC

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil
> My
> hope was that you'd hear a pitch - but I don't really. Perhaps if I change
> instrument.... hmmm.

Hi Mat,

I took your suggestions - I cut the times down by 1/16th and ran the tempo
from 10 bpm to 1000 bpm. Using Indian percs were a nod to high pitched
sounds. It now works for both sets of samples and sounds like a plane at the
end!

Chris

online play
http://alonetone.com/charlieferret/tracks/ji-percs-indian-116th-2
download
http://micro.soonlabel.com/various/daily20110323-gpo-JI-percs-fib-1-2-3-4at-one-sixteenth-indian.mp3

online play
http://alonetone.com/charlieferret/tracks/ji-percs-orchestral-116th
download
http://micro.soonlabel.com/various/daily20110323-gpo-JI-percs-fib-1-2-3-4at-one-sixteenth-orch.mp3

On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 6:38 PM, ixlramp <ixlramp@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>
>
> Hey Chris, I think it might work if you use short, sharp, high pitch
> percussion sounds, or clicks. And make sure they're going fairly fast even
> at 10bpm, at least one click per second.
>
> MatC
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil
> > My
> > hope was that you'd hear a pitch - but I don't really. Perhaps if I
> change
> > instrument.... hmmm.
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

HAHA! Totally insane!

I concur. We have take off. Ha!

Oz.

--

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

ixlramp wrote:
> HAHA! Totally insane!
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]