Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup makemicromusic Serial music

I can now add that you can hear Spider here:

http://micro.soonlabel.com/0-hosted-albums/other_worlds.html

Thanks to Neil giving permission to host a couple of his albums.

Incidentally I've been working with 12 tone serialism of late for other
projects - the trick seems to be making listenable music with that
constraint - it can be done.

Chris

On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 7:24 PM, Neil Haverstick <microstick@...> wrote:

>
>
>
> Nice Schoenberg posts, I really haven't studied his bag that much. I like
> serial rows as one technique in my compositional arsenal; wrote two
> different 12 tone rows years ago, one a blues shuffle, and one which became
> "Mysteries," now in 19...the music is on www.microstick.net. And, my piece
> "Spider," which has various incarnations, is a 19 tone row. I have plans for
> a 31 tone row, maybe 34 or 36 too...we'll see...best...Hstick ("Spider
> Chimes" is at www.myspace.com/microstick)
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Daniel Forró <dan.for@...>

🔗lobawad <lobawad@...>

🔗Daniel Forró <dan.for@...>

🔗lobawad <lobawad@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗Daniel Forró <dan.for@...>

🔗Aaron Krister Johnson <aaron@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

Hi Daniel, Lobawad, and Aaron,

I would like to pick the conversation back up since I now have this piece
available to discuss. Also, I would still be interested in your short
analysis of Spiral 1.

I think it was you Daniel that a year or two showed me a famous tone row
that was a series of triads. For this first serial piece I wrote since 78 or
so I plagiarized that idea as memory allowed.

The piece is a minute long and I tried to make something diatonic sounding
within the constraints of what I term "relaxed serialism" - I allow repeated
and simultaneous members of the row.

My score is here: http://clones.soonlabel.com/public/serial/Turkey_Run.pdf
The tone row matrix is here:
http://clones.soonlabel.com/public/serial/Turkey_Run_12ToneMatrix.txt
And the Sibelius rendering of the piece is here:
http://clones.soonlabel.com/public/serial/Turkey_Run2.mp3

Yes this is in 12 equal - however I'm working towards doing this in a
microtonal tuning. When I discovered the tone row portion of Sibelius
combined with the serial work being done in 11 edo in Urbana it seemed
natural to re-visit what I had in theory class.

I would appreciate any input you may have. I do not think the music is very
good, especially are not listening to it for a while. I'm looking for
techniques / ideas / observations.

Thanks,

Chris

On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 1:08 AM, Daniel Forr� <dan.for@...> wrote:

>
>
> I did many works in my own type of extended 12tone technique. My last
> finished work (written in February, first performance a week ago in
> Nagoya) - Spiral 1 - for koto and piano uses one of this method.
> Simple electronic demo is here:
>
> http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=10298909
>
> Daniel Forro
>
>
> On Mar 18, 2011, at 10:03 AM, Chris Vaisvil wrote:
>
> > Incidentally I've been working with 12 tone serialism of late for
> > other
> > projects - the trick seems to be making listenable music with that
> > constraint - it can be done.
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗lobawad <lobawad@...>

Once again the palpable "red thread" isn't a row, but is created by intervallic palilogy- in this case, a great number of fifths. I think in this case an ideal alternative tuning would be the 7th root of 3:2, which IMO is a suprisingly nice tuning, considering its near-identity to 12-tET.

The pizzicatti are too loud and mechanical, and you have to take them off the timing grid to make them less jarring, and have more velocity sensitivy everywhere, but you know that already, just commenting for the sake of a better MIDI performance.

This is the most coherent piece I've heard from you. It's great- fantastic- that you relentlessly do improvisations in a myriad of tunings, and there are some moments of real beauty. Some bits in your 12th root of phi piece, and others in another unusual tuning I commented on last year come to mind. Real gems. But, in my opinion, which by your own statement you don't respect :-), there's not much in the way of overall coherency and what in the classical world would be called "composition".

Maybe your "relaxed serialism" is something you might really dig- you maintain your personal feel, like you do in this piece, but maybe the approach would bring more meta order to your work. George Perle has excellent books on what ultimately amounts to "relaxed serialism": "Serial Composition and Atonality" and "Twelve-Tone Tonality".

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Daniel, Lobawad, and Aaron,
>
> I would like to pick the conversation back up since I now have this piece
> available to discuss. Also, I would still be interested in your short
> analysis of Spiral 1.
>
> I think it was you Daniel that a year or two showed me a famous tone row
> that was a series of triads. For this first serial piece I wrote since 78 or
> so I plagiarized that idea as memory allowed.
>
> The piece is a minute long and I tried to make something diatonic sounding
> within the constraints of what I term "relaxed serialism" - I allow repeated
> and simultaneous members of the row.
>
> My score is here: http://clones.soonlabel.com/public/serial/Turkey_Run.pdf
> The tone row matrix is here:
> http://clones.soonlabel.com/public/serial/Turkey_Run_12ToneMatrix.txt
> And the Sibelius rendering of the piece is here:
> http://clones.soonlabel.com/public/serial/Turkey_Run2.mp3
>
> Yes this is in 12 equal - however I'm working towards doing this in a
> microtonal tuning. When I discovered the tone row portion of Sibelius
> combined with the serial work being done in 11 edo in Urbana it seemed
> natural to re-visit what I had in theory class.
>
> I would appreciate any input you may have. I do not think the music is very
> good, especially are not listening to it for a while. I'm looking for
> techniques / ideas / observations.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chris
>
> On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 1:08 AM, Daniel Forró <dan.for@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > I did many works in my own type of extended 12tone technique. My last
> > finished work (written in February, first performance a week ago in
> > Nagoya) - Spiral 1 - for koto and piano uses one of this method.
> > Simple electronic demo is here:
> >
> > http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=10298909
> >
> > Daniel Forro
> >
> >
> > On Mar 18, 2011, at 10:03 AM, Chris Vaisvil wrote:
> >
> > > Incidentally I've been working with 12 tone serialism of late for
> > > other
> > > projects - the trick seems to be making listenable music with that
> > > constraint - it can be done.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

Hi Lobawad,

Indeed, it is the 5ths - the tone row is the circle of fifths (the tone
row.txt may not reflect that precisely because I extracted it again after
the fact) - So what I was doing , in a sense, was playing opposites against
each other since many people think serialism represents atonality.

You are 100% correct - I value the music I sit down and work at for days /
weeks more than my improvisations. I *enjoy* my improvisations and sometimes
hit on something good as you say. On the other hand my scored music can
sound too mechanical. So I think what would work be for me is to combine the
two ways of making music. Incidentally I have scored rock music and combined
it with performance:

Burrs, which is in 7/8 time - I play guitar and sing
http://alonetone.com/vaisvil/tracks/burrs-20110403-edit

Forgive Me - I sing (poorly)
http://alonetone.com/vaisvil/tracks/forgive-me

The Spell
http://alonetone.com/vaisvil/tracks/the-spell

I'll see if the Perle books are at my library.

On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 4:03 AM, lobawad <lobawad@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
>
> Once again the palpable "red thread" isn't a row, but is created by
> intervallic palilogy- in this case, a great number of fifths. I think in
> this case an ideal alternative tuning would be the 7th root of 3:2, which
> IMO is a suprisingly nice tuning, considering its near-identity to 12-tET.
>
> The pizzicatti are too loud and mechanical, and you have to take them off
> the timing grid to make them less jarring, and have more velocity sensitivy
> everywhere, but you know that already, just commenting for the sake of a
> better MIDI performance.
>
> This is the most coherent piece I've heard from you. It's great- fantastic-
> that you relentlessly do improvisations in a myriad of tunings, and there
> are some moments of real beauty. Some bits in your 12th root of phi piece,
> and others in another unusual tuning I commented on last year come to mind.
> Real gems. But, in my opinion, which by your own statement you don't respect
> :-), there's not much in the way of overall coherency and what in the
> classical world would be called "composition".
>
> Maybe your "relaxed serialism" is something you might really dig- you
> maintain your personal feel, like you do in this piece, but maybe the
> approach would bring more meta order to your work. George Perle has
> excellent books on what ultimately amounts to "relaxed serialism": "Serial
> Composition and Atonality" and "Twelve-Tone Tonality".
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Daniel, Lobawad, and Aaron,
> >
> > I would like to pick the conversation back up since I now have this piece
> > available to discuss. Also, I would still be interested in your short
> > analysis of Spiral 1.
> >
> > I think it was you Daniel that a year or two showed me a famous tone row
> > that was a series of triads. For this first serial piece I wrote since 78
> or
> > so I plagiarized that idea as memory allowed.
> >
> > The piece is a minute long and I tried to make something diatonic
> sounding
> > within the constraints of what I term "relaxed serialism" - I allow
> repeated
> > and simultaneous members of the row.
> >
> > My score is here:
> http://clones.soonlabel.com/public/serial/Turkey_Run.pdf
> > The tone row matrix is here:
> > http://clones.soonlabel.com/public/serial/Turkey_Run_12ToneMatrix.txt
> > And the Sibelius rendering of the piece is here:
> > http://clones.soonlabel.com/public/serial/Turkey_Run2.mp3
> >
> > Yes this is in 12 equal - however I'm working towards doing this in a
> > microtonal tuning. When I discovered the tone row portion of Sibelius
> > combined with the serial work being done in 11 edo in Urbana it seemed
> > natural to re-visit what I had in theory class.
> >
> > I would appreciate any input you may have. I do not think the music is
> very
> > good, especially are not listening to it for a while. I'm looking for
> > techniques / ideas / observations.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 1:08 AM, Daniel Forr� <dan.for@...> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > I did many works in my own type of extended 12tone technique. My last
> > > finished work (written in February, first performance a week ago in
> > > Nagoya) - Spiral 1 - for koto and piano uses one of this method.
> > > Simple electronic demo is here:
> > >
> > > http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=10298909
> > >
> > > Daniel Forro
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mar 18, 2011, at 10:03 AM, Chris Vaisvil wrote:
> > >
> > > > Incidentally I've been working with 12 tone serialism of late for
> > > > other
> > > > projects - the trick seems to be making listenable music with that
> > > > constraint - it can be done.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗Aaron Krister Johnson <aaron@...>

I rather liked this, Chris!

I think the use of violin and the pizzicato are very effective and colorful,
esp. with what I imagine a real violinist would do with them.

The 'row' you are using is just a circle of fifths, but that's fine, it's an
obvious simple one to use, but it works here. Maybe some folks wouldn't even
grant it a status as a row per se, since it's an obvious one?
But--nonetheless, you keep it working well by maintaining rhythmic,
articulation, and phrasing interest. You might not think it's very good
because of the row, but I think honestly this is some of the better stuff
I've heard from you lately (maybe that's because I'm not all that interested
in blues in general, and rock in a microtonal style for me should be
over-the-top progressive and super super tight a la Yes or Rush...that's not
the only type of rock I've been known to like but if it's 4/4 and
harmonically simple, as you know I like to have 'sonic splendor' and
confident command and tightness from the performers, plus killer sonics, to
make up for the lack of other things compositionally...think U2, the Who,
Crosby Stills and Nash, Boston, and of course Zep)

The overall mood is nice and 'suspended', not exactly menacing or neurotic
like so much serial music one hears, but 'relaxed suspense'....this of
course is in large part due to the way fifths 'ground' the listener in
temporary tonality, a few of them in a row implying a pentatonic tonic as
well.

If I would you, I'd hire a violinist and submit to 60x60 next year, since
it's a minute long. A real violinist who's worth his salt would really shape
this beautifully, much better than can be done with a MIDI rendering, even
if you massage the hell out of it...

Good work! :)

AKJ

On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 8:22 PM, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>wrote:

> Hi Daniel, Lobawad, and Aaron,
>
> I would like to pick the conversation back up since I now have this piece
> available to discuss. Also, I would still be interested in your short
> analysis of Spiral 1.
>
> I think it was you Daniel that a year or two showed me a famous tone row
> that was a series of triads. For this first serial piece I wrote since 78
> or
> so I plagiarized that idea as memory allowed.
>
> The piece is a minute long and I tried to make something diatonic sounding
> within the constraints of what I term "relaxed serialism" - I allow
> repeated
> and simultaneous members of the row.
>
> My score is here: http://clones.soonlabel.com/public/serial/Turkey_Run.pdf
> The tone row matrix is here:
> http://clones.soonlabel.com/public/serial/Turkey_Run_12ToneMatrix.txt
> And the Sibelius rendering of the piece is here:
> http://clones.soonlabel.com/public/serial/Turkey_Run2.mp3
>
> Yes this is in 12 equal - however I'm working towards doing this in a
> microtonal tuning. When I discovered the tone row portion of Sibelius
> combined with the serial work being done in 11 edo in Urbana it seemed
> natural to re-visit what I had in theory class.
>
> I would appreciate any input you may have. I do not think the music is very
> good, especially are not listening to it for a while. I'm looking for
> techniques / ideas / observations.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chris
>
> On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 1:08 AM, Daniel Forró <dan.for@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > I did many works in my own type of extended 12tone technique. My last
> > finished work (written in February, first performance a week ago in
> > Nagoya) - Spiral 1 - for koto and piano uses one of this method.
> > Simple electronic demo is here:
> >
> > http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=10298909
> >
> > Daniel Forro
> >
> >
> > On Mar 18, 2011, at 10:03 AM, Chris Vaisvil wrote:
> >
> > > Incidentally I've been working with 12 tone serialism of late for
> > > other
> > > projects - the trick seems to be making listenable music with that
> > > constraint - it can be done.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

--
Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.akjmusic.com
http://www.untwelve.org

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Aaron Krister Johnson <aaron@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

Hi Gene,

I can use Garritan Personal Orchestra with Sibelius (though it is a bit
grumpy) which means I can use any scala file. Sibelius is supposed to let me
write quartertone music with "traditional" quartertone notation. At the
moment I am working on a SATB Choral piece using the Unimajor tuning. It is
not serial at the moment - but considering I'm so far disappointed with my
musical results perhaps that would be a good thing to try. There are a lot
of variations at applying a tone row to 4 simultaneous voices.

I'm not sure if I can dig in and apply pitch bends directly like I can in
Sonar. I'm still learning the software - it has a real shift in user
interface from other windows programs that is sort of its own little
universe. Learning it has required a fairly steep learning curve and I'm
still on it. Not as steep as csound though!!

I am pleased with the quality of the scores it produces, and at least with
the included sample set Sibelius obeys your score directions - in other
words crescendos, ritrarondos, dynamic markings, accents, etc. etc. are
performed. That is really, really nice. However, as pointed out by Lobawad
the pizzicatos were too loud as exported by the program. (Version 3 of
Turkey Run has my explicit dynamic markings to correct it).

Chris

On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 11:38 AM, genewardsmith
<genewardsmith@sbcglobal.net>wrote:

>
>
>
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>
> wrote:
>
> > The piece is a minute long and I tried to make something diatonic
> sounding
> > within the constraints of what I term "relaxed serialism" - I allow
> repeated
> > and simultaneous members of the row.
>
> The idea has possibilities, but you know you don't actually need to use an
> edo to use serialism, don't know? If you setup lets you tweak twelve pitches
> a little with pitch bends that would be interesting to explore.
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

Hi Aaron, I'm glad you like it.

I didn't know there was a question as to if series of 12 unique notes
couldn't be called a tone row. I was just going after contradiction. The
concept of perceived atonal technique fused with one of the main tools of 12
edo tonality.

"The overall mood is nice and 'suspended', not exactly menacing or neurotic
like so much serial music one hears, but 'relaxed suspense'..."

When I hit upon that - which here is due to the row - I was like "I can work
with this" - it was sort of a aha! moment for me. My experience in college,
where we analyzed the serial implementations of Schoenberg (I can find this)
and Milton Babbit (can't find this) and also listened to Webern and Berg was
very much skewed towards very dissonant music. At the time I felt that I
could be dissonant without having to resort to serialism and what I saw was
its constraints. I actually feel liberated somehow at this point. Though I
think the number of ideas I'd use serialism for may be numbered. But that is
ok - its another tool.

I appreciate your idea about the violinist. I have Indiana University and
Illinois University relatively close by. There is a chance I could bribe a
good student to play it for me if for no other reason than to hear it. I
have had the same suggestion concerning my solo flute piece which is *not*
serial.
http://micro.soonlabel.com/flute-compare-tunings/flute-solo-12edo.mp3
online play http://chrisvaisvil.com/?p=116

As for your taste in rock - I greatly prefer prog rock to listen to as well
(I'm a Genesis w/ Gabriel person as well as Gentle Giant) On the other hand
my wife has turned me into a Buddy Guy fan and that is some ass kicking
blues - especially his album Sweet Tea. Btw I'm pretty sure Norm is playing
percussion in 6/8 while I'm in 4/4 - Norm is a student of various percussion
techniques and likes to perform 2 against 3, 3 against 4, 6 against 4, etc.
and various cross overs. the guy is great! http://alonetone.com/norm

Thank you for the detailed reply.

Chris

On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 11:40 AM, Aaron Krister Johnson
<aaron@akjmusic.com>wrote:

>
>
> I rather liked this, Chris!
>
> I think the use of violin and the pizzicato are very effective and
> colorful,
> esp. with what I imagine a real violinist would do with them.
>
> The 'row' you are using is just a circle of fifths, but that's fine, it's
> an
> obvious simple one to use, but it works here. Maybe some folks wouldn't
> even
> grant it a status as a row per se, since it's an obvious one?
> But--nonetheless, you keep it working well by maintaining rhythmic,
> articulation, and phrasing interest. You might not think it's very good
> because of the row, but I think honestly this is some of the better stuff
> I've heard from you lately (maybe that's because I'm not all that
> interested
> in blues in general, and rock in a microtonal style for me should be
> over-the-top progressive and super super tight a la Yes or Rush...that's
> not
> the only type of rock I've been known to like but if it's 4/4 and
> harmonically simple, as you know I like to have 'sonic splendor' and
> confident command and tightness from the performers, plus killer sonics, to
> make up for the lack of other things compositionally...think U2, the Who,
> Crosby Stills and Nash, Boston, and of course Zep)
>
> The overall mood is nice and 'suspended', not exactly menacing or neurotic
> like so much serial music one hears, but 'relaxed suspense'....this of
> course is in large part due to the way fifths 'ground' the listener in
> temporary tonality, a few of them in a row implying a pentatonic tonic as
> well.
>
> If I would you, I'd hire a violinist and submit to 60x60 next year, since
> it's a minute long. A real violinist who's worth his salt would really
> shape
> this beautifully, much better than can be done with a MIDI rendering, even
> if you massage the hell out of it...
>
> Good work! :)
>
> AKJ
>
> On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 8:22 PM, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...
> >wrote:
>
>
> > Hi Daniel, Lobawad, and Aaron,
> >
> > I would like to pick the conversation back up since I now have this piece
> > available to discuss. Also, I would still be interested in your short
> > analysis of Spiral 1.
> >
> > I think it was you Daniel that a year or two showed me a famous tone row
> > that was a series of triads. For this first serial piece I wrote since 78
> > or
> > so I plagiarized that idea as memory allowed.
> >
> > The piece is a minute long and I tried to make something diatonic
> sounding
> > within the constraints of what I term "relaxed serialism" - I allow
> > repeated
> > and simultaneous members of the row.
> >
> > My score is here:
> http://clones.soonlabel.com/public/serial/Turkey_Run.pdf
> > The tone row matrix is here:
> > http://clones.soonlabel.com/public/serial/Turkey_Run_12ToneMatrix.txt
> > And the Sibelius rendering of the piece is here:
> > http://clones.soonlabel.com/public/serial/Turkey_Run2.mp3
> >
> > Yes this is in 12 equal - however I'm working towards doing this in a
> > microtonal tuning. When I discovered the tone row portion of Sibelius
> > combined with the serial work being done in 11 edo in Urbana it seemed
> > natural to re-visit what I had in theory class.
> >
> > I would appreciate any input you may have. I do not think the music is
> very
> > good, especially are not listening to it for a while. I'm looking for
> > techniques / ideas / observations.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 1:08 AM, Daniel Forr� <dan.for@tiscali.cz>
> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > I did many works in my own type of extended 12tone technique. My last
> > > finished work (written in February, first performance a week ago in
> > > Nagoya) - Spiral 1 - for koto and piano uses one of this method.
> > > Simple electronic demo is here:
> > >
> > > http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=10298909
> > >
> > > Daniel Forro
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mar 18, 2011, at 10:03 AM, Chris Vaisvil wrote:
> > >
> > > > Incidentally I've been working with 12 tone serialism of late for
> > > > other
> > > > projects - the trick seems to be making listenable music with that
> > > > constraint - it can be done.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Aaron Krister Johnson
> http://www.akjmusic.com
> http://www.untwelve.org
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗lobawad <lobawad@...>

Sounds like you listened to more Pere Ubu and Wire than REO Speedwagon and Boston. Which is a good thing in my book.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Lobawad,
>
> Indeed, it is the 5ths - the tone row is the circle of fifths (the tone
> row.txt may not reflect that precisely because I extracted it again after
> the fact) - So what I was doing , in a sense, was playing opposites against
> each other since many people think serialism represents atonality.
>
> You are 100% correct - I value the music I sit down and work at for days /
> weeks more than my improvisations. I *enjoy* my improvisations and sometimes
> hit on something good as you say. On the other hand my scored music can
> sound too mechanical. So I think what would work be for me is to combine the
> two ways of making music. Incidentally I have scored rock music and combined
> it with performance:
>
> Burrs, which is in 7/8 time - I play guitar and sing
> http://alonetone.com/vaisvil/tracks/burrs-20110403-edit
>
> Forgive Me - I sing (poorly)
> http://alonetone.com/vaisvil/tracks/forgive-me
>
> The Spell
> http://alonetone.com/vaisvil/tracks/the-spell
>
> I'll see if the Perle books are at my library.
>
> On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 4:03 AM, lobawad <lobawad@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Once again the palpable "red thread" isn't a row, but is created by
> > intervallic palilogy- in this case, a great number of fifths. I think in
> > this case an ideal alternative tuning would be the 7th root of 3:2, which
> > IMO is a suprisingly nice tuning, considering its near-identity to 12-tET.
> >
> > The pizzicatti are too loud and mechanical, and you have to take them off
> > the timing grid to make them less jarring, and have more velocity sensitivy
> > everywhere, but you know that already, just commenting for the sake of a
> > better MIDI performance.
> >
> > This is the most coherent piece I've heard from you. It's great- fantastic-
> > that you relentlessly do improvisations in a myriad of tunings, and there
> > are some moments of real beauty. Some bits in your 12th root of phi piece,
> > and others in another unusual tuning I commented on last year come to mind.
> > Real gems. But, in my opinion, which by your own statement you don't respect
> > :-), there's not much in the way of overall coherency and what in the
> > classical world would be called "composition".
> >
> > Maybe your "relaxed serialism" is something you might really dig- you
> > maintain your personal feel, like you do in this piece, but maybe the
> > approach would bring more meta order to your work. George Perle has
> > excellent books on what ultimately amounts to "relaxed serialism": "Serial
> > Composition and Atonality" and "Twelve-Tone Tonality".
> >
> > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Daniel, Lobawad, and Aaron,
> > >
> > > I would like to pick the conversation back up since I now have this piece
> > > available to discuss. Also, I would still be interested in your short
> > > analysis of Spiral 1.
> > >
> > > I think it was you Daniel that a year or two showed me a famous tone row
> > > that was a series of triads. For this first serial piece I wrote since 78
> > or
> > > so I plagiarized that idea as memory allowed.
> > >
> > > The piece is a minute long and I tried to make something diatonic
> > sounding
> > > within the constraints of what I term "relaxed serialism" - I allow
> > repeated
> > > and simultaneous members of the row.
> > >
> > > My score is here:
> > http://clones.soonlabel.com/public/serial/Turkey_Run.pdf
> > > The tone row matrix is here:
> > > http://clones.soonlabel.com/public/serial/Turkey_Run_12ToneMatrix.txt
> > > And the Sibelius rendering of the piece is here:
> > > http://clones.soonlabel.com/public/serial/Turkey_Run2.mp3
> > >
> > > Yes this is in 12 equal - however I'm working towards doing this in a
> > > microtonal tuning. When I discovered the tone row portion of Sibelius
> > > combined with the serial work being done in 11 edo in Urbana it seemed
> > > natural to re-visit what I had in theory class.
> > >
> > > I would appreciate any input you may have. I do not think the music is
> > very
> > > good, especially are not listening to it for a while. I'm looking for
> > > techniques / ideas / observations.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Chris
> > >
> > > On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 1:08 AM, Daniel Forró <dan.for@> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I did many works in my own type of extended 12tone technique. My last
> > > > finished work (written in February, first performance a week ago in
> > > > Nagoya) - Spiral 1 - for koto and piano uses one of this method.
> > > > Simple electronic demo is here:
> > > >
> > > > http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=10298909
> > > >
> > > > Daniel Forro
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Mar 18, 2011, at 10:03 AM, Chris Vaisvil wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Incidentally I've been working with 12 tone serialism of late for
> > > > > other
> > > > > projects - the trick seems to be making listenable music with that
> > > > > constraint - it can be done.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

🔗lobawad <lobawad@...>

Say Chris are you aware of the well-known Schnittke quote reffering to serialism as "puberty rites of serial self-denial"?

Hahaha! Of course in his time and place this was probably a keen remark. In 2011 it's a historical approach, one of many.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "lobawad" <lobawad@...> wrote:
>
> Sounds like you listened to more Pere Ubu and Wire than REO Speedwagon and Boston. Which is a good thing in my book.
>
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Lobawad,
> >
> > Indeed, it is the 5ths - the tone row is the circle of fifths (the tone
> > row.txt may not reflect that precisely because I extracted it again after
> > the fact) - So what I was doing , in a sense, was playing opposites against
> > each other since many people think serialism represents atonality.
> >
> > You are 100% correct - I value the music I sit down and work at for days /
> > weeks more than my improvisations. I *enjoy* my improvisations and sometimes
> > hit on something good as you say. On the other hand my scored music can
> > sound too mechanical. So I think what would work be for me is to combine the
> > two ways of making music. Incidentally I have scored rock music and combined
> > it with performance:
> >
> > Burrs, which is in 7/8 time - I play guitar and sing
> > http://alonetone.com/vaisvil/tracks/burrs-20110403-edit
> >
> > Forgive Me - I sing (poorly)
> > http://alonetone.com/vaisvil/tracks/forgive-me
> >
> > The Spell
> > http://alonetone.com/vaisvil/tracks/the-spell
> >
> > I'll see if the Perle books are at my library.
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 4:03 AM, lobawad <lobawad@> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Once again the palpable "red thread" isn't a row, but is created by
> > > intervallic palilogy- in this case, a great number of fifths. I think in
> > > this case an ideal alternative tuning would be the 7th root of 3:2, which
> > > IMO is a suprisingly nice tuning, considering its near-identity to 12-tET.
> > >
> > > The pizzicatti are too loud and mechanical, and you have to take them off
> > > the timing grid to make them less jarring, and have more velocity sensitivy
> > > everywhere, but you know that already, just commenting for the sake of a
> > > better MIDI performance.
> > >
> > > This is the most coherent piece I've heard from you. It's great- fantastic-
> > > that you relentlessly do improvisations in a myriad of tunings, and there
> > > are some moments of real beauty. Some bits in your 12th root of phi piece,
> > > and others in another unusual tuning I commented on last year come to mind.
> > > Real gems. But, in my opinion, which by your own statement you don't respect
> > > :-), there's not much in the way of overall coherency and what in the
> > > classical world would be called "composition".
> > >
> > > Maybe your "relaxed serialism" is something you might really dig- you
> > > maintain your personal feel, like you do in this piece, but maybe the
> > > approach would bring more meta order to your work. George Perle has
> > > excellent books on what ultimately amounts to "relaxed serialism": "Serial
> > > Composition and Atonality" and "Twelve-Tone Tonality".
> > >
> > > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi Daniel, Lobawad, and Aaron,
> > > >
> > > > I would like to pick the conversation back up since I now have this piece
> > > > available to discuss. Also, I would still be interested in your short
> > > > analysis of Spiral 1.
> > > >
> > > > I think it was you Daniel that a year or two showed me a famous tone row
> > > > that was a series of triads. For this first serial piece I wrote since 78
> > > or
> > > > so I plagiarized that idea as memory allowed.
> > > >
> > > > The piece is a minute long and I tried to make something diatonic
> > > sounding
> > > > within the constraints of what I term "relaxed serialism" - I allow
> > > repeated
> > > > and simultaneous members of the row.
> > > >
> > > > My score is here:
> > > http://clones.soonlabel.com/public/serial/Turkey_Run.pdf
> > > > The tone row matrix is here:
> > > > http://clones.soonlabel.com/public/serial/Turkey_Run_12ToneMatrix.txt
> > > > And the Sibelius rendering of the piece is here:
> > > > http://clones.soonlabel.com/public/serial/Turkey_Run2.mp3
> > > >
> > > > Yes this is in 12 equal - however I'm working towards doing this in a
> > > > microtonal tuning. When I discovered the tone row portion of Sibelius
> > > > combined with the serial work being done in 11 edo in Urbana it seemed
> > > > natural to re-visit what I had in theory class.
> > > >
> > > > I would appreciate any input you may have. I do not think the music is
> > > very
> > > > good, especially are not listening to it for a while. I'm looking for
> > > > techniques / ideas / observations.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > Chris
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 1:08 AM, Daniel Forró <dan.for@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I did many works in my own type of extended 12tone technique. My last
> > > > > finished work (written in February, first performance a week ago in
> > > > > Nagoya) - Spiral 1 - for koto and piano uses one of this method.
> > > > > Simple electronic demo is here:
> > > > >
> > > > > http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=10298909
> > > > >
> > > > > Daniel Forro
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mar 18, 2011, at 10:03 AM, Chris Vaisvil wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Incidentally I've been working with 12 tone serialism of late for
> > > > > > other
> > > > > > projects - the trick seems to be making listenable music with that
> > > > > > constraint - it can be done.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

Hi Cameron,

Never heard of that quote before. My musical tastes ran from the Beatles to
Black Sabbath and Zeppelin to Yes, Genesis (w/ Gabriel), Gentle Giant,
Tangerine Dream and Mahavishnu Orchestra (among others).

Here is a compositional problem with serialism I am running into that I
would like to open for discussion.

I am composing a solo piano 12 note serial piece. Originally I was using
John's Blue JI tuning. However, comparing that to 12 edo it does not seem
seems satisfactory - in fact my impression at the moment is that strict or
close to strict serialism using a melodic row demands interval equivalency
in order to work and any fractional JI tuning (I think) will have more than
one flavor of the same intervals. I find that different 5ths for instance
stick out too much to work smoothly in context. When I am writing closer to
common practice I have solutions - but none yet in the realm of serialism.

So I tried other tunings and I actually like the piece better in Jake's
revised 12th root of Phi tuning that any of the half dozen JI tunings I
tried - like Kraig's Centar or Carlos Super Just or Canton or my own
harmonic series segments. So I was wondering if someone had invented this
wheel before. One way of serialization of Just Intonation that occurs to me
right now is to serialize dyads instead of melodies.

Does anyone else have other solutions / views / observations?

Thanks,

Chris

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗lobawad <lobawad@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Cameron,
>
> Never heard of that quote before. My musical tastes ran from the Beatles to
> Black Sabbath and Zeppelin to Yes, Genesis (w/ Gabriel), Gentle Giant,
> Tangerine Dream and Mahavishnu Orchestra (among others).
>

It's interesting that you've got something of a "post-punk" (actually that sound was current with punk) sound. But it makes sense- post-punk sometimes had the sophistication (or more) of the more obviously "art" bands and if you're after that and don't have or don't want the fret-blazing aspects, it's a natural evolutionary branch of rock.

>
> Here is a compositional problem with serialism I am running into >that I
> would like to open for discussion.
>
> I am composing a solo piano 12 note serial piece. Originally I was using
> John's Blue JI tuning. However, comparing that to 12 edo it does not seem
> seems satisfactory - in fact my impression at the moment is that strict or
> close to strict serialism using a melodic row demands interval equivalency
> in order to work and any fractional JI tuning (I think) will have more than
> one flavor of the same intervals. I find that different 5ths for instance
> stick out too much to work smoothly in context. When I am writing closer to
> common practice I have solutions - but none yet in the realm of serialism.
>
> So I tried other tunings and I actually like the piece better in Jake's
> revised 12th root of Phi tuning that any of the half dozen JI tunings I
> tried - like Kraig's Centar or Carlos Super Just or Canton or my own
> harmonic series segments. So I was wondering if someone had invented this
> wheel before. One way of serialization of Just Intonation that occurs to me
> right now is to serialize dyads instead of melodies.
>
> Does anyone else have other solutions / views / observations?
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chris

There are at least two deeply divergent streams of 20th century serialism (cf. Schoenberg is Dead, Boulez, 1952). And in my opinion, noone involved at that time really had the perspective to distinguish a particular divisive element you're talking about now and which was making me go "hmmm" 10-15 years ago when I was working in 12-tET. That element is the difference between 12-tET and 12-ED0. There are things that are "true" in one that aren't "true" in another, and these things can be generalized to all temperaments and tunings.

Disparagement of serialism largely boils down to criticism based on the false assumption that it is written in 12-tET. It's (usually) not: it's written in 12-EDO. Symmetries for example are real structural elements- you're "feeling" them right now. You can "prove" this, as you have already done, by retuning a 12-EDO piece to the 12th root of phi. If literal symmetries are important to the structure of a piece, you'll feel it if your tuning is asymmetrical. If you retune to an asymmetrical tuning and it feels right, that means that symmetries were not an actual structural reality.

I said "literal" symmetry on purpose. You can have symmetries that are not literal- go up, go down is "symmetrical" and doesn't depend on precise intervallic consistency at all.

Well there's a lot to it so there are my thoughts for now.

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

The divergent streams are the strict and the relaxed serialists?

The tunings that work are 12 edo, 17 edo, 12edPhi and the duodun12
(comment "Almost equal 12-tone subset of Duodenarium ")

What doesn't work is any other JI tuning I've tried. (This work was
targeted for the JI, tuning list on the subject of serialism, and make
micro music lists so that was my reason to attempt JI serialism )

I'm not sure about symmetry in this particular piece. The row itself
doesn't have a great deal of symetry. The basis of the row is a series
of stacked thirds and then clean up at the end.
The problem for me a matter of purity of equivalent intervals. It was
jarring to hear the different consecutive "identical" intervals when
using JI. I asked the same question on the JI group plus facebook and
I have to read more thoroughly and respond there as well. From what I
understand Ben Johnston's solution of composing serial JI was to use
"clouds" of "equivalent" ... notes, if that is the proper word in this
context. I'm reading up on this - not done so I can't say I understand
this was used yet.

Thanks for your time and comments,

Chris

On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 4:29 AM, lobawad <lobawad@...m> wrote:
>

> There are at least two deeply divergent streams of 20th century serialism (cf. Schoenberg is Dead, Boulez, 1952). And in my opinion, noone involved at that time really had the perspective to distinguish a particular divisive element you're talking about now and which was making me go "hmmm" 10-15 years ago when I was working in 12-tET. That element is the difference between 12-tET and 12-ED0. There are things that are "true" in one that aren't "true" in another, and these things can be generalized to all temperaments and tunings.
>
> Disparagement of serialism largely boils down to criticism based on the false assumption that it is written in 12-tET. It's (usually) not: it's written in 12-EDO. Symmetries for example are real structural elements- you're "feeling" them right now. You can "prove" this, as you have already done, by retuning a 12-EDO piece to the 12th root of phi. If literal symmetries are important to the structure of a piece, you'll feel it if your tuning is asymmetrical. If you retune to an asymmetrical tuning and it feels right, that means that symmetries were not an actual structural reality.
>
> I said "literal" symmetry on purpose. You can have symmetries that are not literal- go up, go down is "symmetrical" and doesn't depend on precise intervallic consistency at all.
>
> Well there's a lot to it so there are my thoughts for now.
>

🔗lobawad <lobawad@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
>
> The divergent streams are the strict and the relaxed serialists?

I think that's just a manifestation of something deeper- even the difference between 12-tET and 12-EDO isn't really at the root of it all. I believe conceptions really start diverging when the conception of tones and sounds as "things", objects and of themselves, takes first place in conception of music.

Adorno saw this (music as a bunch of "objects") as a terrible thing, and it sure is suspiciously reminiscent of consumerist culture. Maybe that was a reason he skipped over integral serialism and went from supporting the early serialist to supporting aleotoric music. He was more into verbs than nouns, and integral serialism turns everything into objects, even things like dynamics.

>
> The tunings that work are 12 edo, 17 edo, 12edPhi and the duodun12
> (comment "Almost equal 12-tone subset of Duodenarium ")
>
> What doesn't work is any other JI tuning I've tried. (This work was
> targeted for the JI, tuning list on the subject of serialism, and make
> micro music lists so that was my reason to attempt JI serialism )
>
>
> I'm not sure about symmetry in this particular piece. The row itself
> doesn't have a great deal of symetry. The basis of the row is a series
> of stacked thirds and then clean up at the end.
> The problem for me a matter of purity of equivalent intervals. It was

I think the purity of equivalent intervals IS a symmetry that is an important part of your piece. QED- it doesn't work when you monkey with these consistent sizes, but the piece does work as long as you maintain the consistency. The symmetry itself (same size going up or down, or transposed) MUST more important than the intervals themselves, or it would not tranlate so nicely to the radically different 12th root of phi, don't you think?

Serial music

🔗Neil Haverstick <microstick@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗Daniel Forró <dan.for@...>

🔗lobawad <lobawad@...>

🔗Daniel Forró <dan.for@...>

🔗lobawad <lobawad@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗Daniel Forró <dan.for@...>

🔗Aaron Krister Johnson <aaron@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗lobawad <lobawad@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗Aaron Krister Johnson <aaron@...>

🔗Aaron Krister Johnson <aaron@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗lobawad <lobawad@...>

🔗lobawad <lobawad@...>

🔗lobawad <lobawad@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗lobawad <lobawad@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗lobawad <lobawad@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗lobawad <lobawad@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>