Get Bach?

<I did make a judgement about what I perceive to be you narrow-mindedness, and
you admit to it, so I don't see the problem.>

It seems evident to me that he doesn't agree at all with the value judgements
you have so publically assigned to his lack of interest in "classical music". 
It is quite natural that someone with such a perspective to see a bit of a
"problem". 

<...I find it unbelievable that anyone serious about music in any genre would
for instance actively ignore absorbing as much of the music of J.S. Bach (at the
very least) as they can in this lifetime>

I'm not trying to say that Bach's works are anything short of amazing.  I
particularly love his inventive polyphony of (seemingly) independently
moving voices.  Mind blowing.  And yes, some of those bass lines approach
"perfection". 

But we all have to allocate our time and resources.  To actively absorb "as much
of the music of J.S. Bach as I can in my lifetime" would preclude me from
enjoying and absorbing a lot of other music. 

Wait... we *are* talking about PDQ Bach, right?  ;-)

Bottom line...  People enjoy and create music for many different reasons.  I'm
not all that bothered by someone else not being particularly interested in Bach
at this point in their life (even if they never get around to it).  Bach isn't
suffering any serious lack of love and adoration after all! 

Besides, I wonder how many people are likely to ever become more open-minded or
to develop a sense of genuine curiosity for classical music as a result
of being criticized in public as a philistine? 

<I basically, at the outset, wouldn't respect a musician (beyond basic human
courtesy) anyone who ignored something so vastly great as Bach's music, not for
being ignorant of it---no, because we are all ignorant about lots of
things---but for knowing it's there, knowing that just about every great
musician in history has bowed to Bach's genius, and deciding that it was not
worth their time. For not even being *curious* to investigate. I just can't
respect that, period, and to me, this makes you not worth *my* time, at
least on a musical level.<

Does not this statement about lack of respect and unworthiness of your time
belie a certain amount of inherent confirmation bias whenever you listen to and
assess Michael's music? 

Someone may be disinterested in classical music for any number of reasons, valid
or invalid.  Perhaps they got "turned off" by some classical snobs telling them
that their favorite music was crap and that classical was the only "good"
music.  The list of possible reasons could go on and on... But to jump to the
conclusion that such a person must be incapable of creating anything worthy of
time or attention is a form of "halo effect" (perhaps better described as
"pitchfork effect") cognitive bias (IMO).

Of course, like I said earlier, we all have to allocate our time and resources. 
Actually, I don't object in the least to you directing your time and attention
wherever you think it will be best rewarded. 

But I do object to the public verbal flogging of someone because they had the
audacity to admit that they have not developed an appreciation for any era,
style, or composer.  Even if shaming a person resulted in outward conformity, it
would have accomplished very little in the way of inspiring true appreciation. 
Pragmatically speaking, it is far more likely to make the persone more defensive
and entrenched than ever.

<You may be a nice guy on a personal level, and I'd be polite to you in an
elevator, etc.....<

And that is cool.  Musical passion runs deep in our blood here - and some of
us have such different backgrounds, tastes and perspectives... 
Mangaing to retain our basic human courtesy, that actually does count for
something IMO.
Mark Stephens
ProgPositivity - The Best Prog and Fusion - Positively!
http://www.progpositivity.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mark>"Besides, I wonder how many people are likely to ever become more open-minded or

to develop a sense of genuine curiosity for classical music as a result

of being criticized in public as a philistine?  "

    Thank you...my point exactly.  That is what I mean by the type of attitude that may well drive would-be fans of microtonal music away from our art.

>"But I do object to the public verbal flogging of someone because they had the  audacity to admit that they have not developed an appreciation for any era,  style, or composer. "

   I get the point as positive but, on the other hand, I have developed an appreciation for a whole lot of different composers and genres often far in the past time-wise...it's just that appreciation and enjoyment are not the same thing.. 
    I appreciate the efforts of classical musicians in general, just not any particular era or composer.  In the same way, I appreciate the efforts of Robert Johnson and Howling Wolf from early blues as inventing what in many ways became the basis for the rock music I love...but would not listen to either of them for personal enjoyment.
   I also appreciate Thomas Alva Edison for inventing the incandescent lightbulb but, in reality, only buy fluorescent bulbs...for example.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hey,

Point(s) taken, Mark, thanks. I hope I didn't appear to be too hard on
Michael, and I'm sorry if I was, Michael.

Ironic for me, this conversation as a whole. I had a college theory
professor (who shall remain nameless), a monster musician, totally disown me
a few months ago for what he perceived to be my less than pure taste in good
music. My crime? Liking certain things that were beyond the pale to him---I
wanted him to admit that certain rock music was high quality, that someone
like Aphex Twin had a genius for sound in a way that he possibly would be
unable to even grant or recognize....and that there were other great
composers in the classical canon than the 3 B's that mattered (like Federico
Mompou). To him, it was Bach, Beethoven, Brahms, Mozart, Haydn, etc., etc.
and 2nd tier things like Saint-Saens, Faure, Debussy, Vierne....a very
arch-conservative classical diet. Getting him to admit that Stravinsky was
an unparalled genius was hard enough. Then of course, I barely broached the
subject of microtonality---I knew to him, it was all "pure garbage" that was
a waste of my, or anyone's time.

And here I am, making an appeal to folks who don't know Bach to become
familiar with Bach. BACH! Of all things!

The universe is howling with laughter at me. :D

AKJ

On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 6:35 PM, Mark Stephens <musicoptimist@...>wrote:

> <I did make a judgement about what I perceive to be you narrow-mindedness,
> and
> you admit to it, so I don't see the problem.>
>
> It seems evident to me that he doesn't agree at all with the value
> judgements
> you have so publically assigned to his lack of interest in "classical
> music".
> It is quite natural that someone with such a perspective to see a bit of a
> "problem".
>
>
> <...I find it unbelievable that anyone serious about music in any genre
> would
> for instance actively ignore absorbing as much of the music of J.S. Bach
> (at the
> very least) as they can in this lifetime>
>
> I'm not trying to say that Bach's works are anything short of amazing. I
> particularly love his inventive polyphony of (seemingly) independently
> moving voices. Mind blowing. And yes, some of those bass lines approach
> "perfection".
>
>
> But we all have to allocate our time and resources. To actively absorb "as
> much
> of the music of J.S. Bach as I can in my lifetime" would preclude me from
> enjoying and absorbing a lot of other music.
>
>
> Wait... we *are* talking about PDQ Bach, right? ;-)
>
> Bottom line... People enjoy and create music for many different reasons.
> I'm
> not all that bothered by someone else not being particularly interested in
> Bach
> at this point in their life (even if they never get around to it). Bach
> isn't
> suffering any serious lack of love and adoration after all!
>
>
> Besides, I wonder how many people are likely to ever become more
> open-minded or
> to develop a sense of genuine curiosity for classical music as a result
> of being criticized in public as a philistine?
>
>
> <I basically, at the outset, wouldn't respect a musician (beyond basic
> human
> courtesy) anyone who ignored something so vastly great as Bach's music, not
> for
> being ignorant of it---no, because we are all ignorant about lots of
> things---but for knowing it's there, knowing that just about every great
> musician in history has bowed to Bach's genius, and deciding that it was
> not
> worth their time. For not even being *curious* to investigate. I just can't
> respect that, period, and to me, this makes you not worth *my* time, at
> least on a musical level.<
>
> Does not this statement about lack of respect and unworthiness of your time
> belie a certain amount of inherent confirmation bias whenever you listen to
> and
> assess Michael's music?
>
>
> Someone may be disinterested in classical music for any number of reasons,
> valid
> or invalid. Perhaps they got "turned off" by some classical snobs telling
> them
> that their favorite music was crap and that classical was the only "good"
> music. The list of possible reasons could go on and on... But to jump to
> the
> conclusion that such a person must be incapable of creating anything worthy
> of
> time or attention is a form of "halo effect" (perhaps better described as
> "pitchfork effect") cognitive bias (IMO).
>
> Of course, like I said earlier, we all have to allocate our time and
> resources.
> Actually, I don't object in the least to you directing your time and
> attention
> wherever you think it will be best rewarded.
>
>
> But I do object to the public verbal flogging of someone because they had
> the
> audacity to admit that they have not developed an appreciation for any era,
> style, or composer. Even if shaming a person resulted in outward
> conformity, it
> would have accomplished very little in the way of inspiring true
> appreciation.
> Pragmatically speaking, it is far more likely to make the persone
> more defensive
> and entrenched than ever.
>
> <You may be a nice guy on a personal level, and I'd be polite to you in an
> elevator, etc.....<
>
> And that is cool. Musical passion runs deep in our blood here - and some
> of
> us have such different backgrounds, tastes and perspectives...
> Mangaing to retain our basic human courtesy, that actually does count for
> something IMO.
> Mark Stephens
> ProgPositivity - The Best Prog and Fusion - Positively!
> http://www.progpositivity.com
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

--
Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.akjmusic.com
http://www.untwelve.org

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 8:41 PM, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:

>
> I also appreciate Thomas Alva Edison for inventing the incandescent
> lightbulb but, in reality, only buy fluorescent bulbs...for example.
>
>
We just got rid of a prison-ugly fluorescent light in our kitchen, and are
re-doing most of the lights in our house. I can't stand the antiseptic,
depressing quality of fluorescent lighting. Makes me feel like I'm in a
McDonald's. My wife at least agrees.

I know, way way off topic. If you want to talk lighting, let's take it to
meta-tuning. :)

AKJ

--
Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.akjmusic.com
http://www.untwelve.org

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>"Point(s) taken, Mark, thanks. I hope I didn't appear to be too hard on Michael, and I'm sorry if I was, Michael."

     For the record, I don't like holding grudges any more than any one else does... and thank you; we're good. :-)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> And here I am, making an appeal to folks who don't know Bach to become
> familiar with Bach. BACH! Of all things!
>
> The universe is howling with laughter at me. :D

That's pretty funny.

It's nice to see the flames die down. For what it's worth, I played a fair amount of Bach when I was learning classical guitar in my teens, and I learned the Bach chorale style in high school (and I've been thinking about how to apply that, or its principles, to microtonal scales), but I haven't been able to deal Bach very well -- or with baroque music in general -- for a long time.

I love ealier stuff like Dowland and Palestrina. (I just discovered Palestrina two years ago. And me a good Catholic boy, too. Who knew my life had such a gap?) I love a lot of late Classical music, and I love a lot of Romantic and Modern music. I could place the pillars of my musical psyche (in the classical arena, at least) at Palestrina, Beethoven, and Mahler. But Vivaldi and Handel tire me, and with few exceptions Bach quickly starts grating on my nerves. I could more easily sit through Schoenberg's Gurrelieder -- not the easiest piece to listen to, even though it's not in the 12-tone style -- than JS Bach's St Matthew Passion.

So, I appreciate the fact that Beethoven and the Schumanns and Mendelssohn loved Bach and studied him deeply, but better them than me.

Another one I'm supposed to love? Mozart. Sorry, just doesn't reach me much. I've tried.

With respect to people who are like Igs and Michael, I think it's not worth arguing about their Bachiness or non-Bachiness. You don't need to study Hesiod to write Star Wars, even if it could, theoretically, help.

Regards,
Jake