Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup makemicromusic Seeing Twelve through Untwelvish Eyes

Well, the subject line is an exaggeration. I haven't been composing enough in non-twelve scales to really be seeing anything through untwelvish eyes.

That said, one of the interesting things about reaching beyond 12-TET recently has been the way it has broken some of the older ideas I had *about* 12-TET.

For instance, thinking about notes as more-or-less consonant ratios, and then trying to figure out how to command them inside a piece of music, leads to unusual sounds in 17-EDO, 19-EDO, and a whole bunch of other non-EDO scales. (I've only played with about six scales, and most of what I've produced isn't worth talking about.) Since I don't have untwelve instruments, and it's hard to find the time to actually compose on my laptop, my three main instruments are still guitar (which I was once okay at), mandolin (which I can really just play chords on), and piano (which I don't play so much as wander around on) -- all in 12-EDO, of course.

But if I stop thinking about 12-EDO as the standard Western scale, and instead think of it as a temperament of a bunch of more-or-less consonant notes, I stop worrying so much about things like major and minor. If my attitude isn't bluesy, a minor third is no more or less bluesy than a major third is, and I can use both of them in a melody, riff, or ornament while only worrying about the key so much as the character of the chords or intervals involved. The key I'm in, my tonal center, derives at least as much from the octaves, fifths, and fourths I'm using than from the thirds I'm using. Heck, I don't even need thirds if I don't feel like it: There's a lot of tonal color in seconds, fourths, and sevenths. I find that as I goof off I can use a lot more notes than I previously had without making things sound harsh, ugly, or weird. They sounds I'm making are more "chromatic" in the sense of having more color, but not in the sense of heavy, harsh, dark, or those other words that frequently get associated with chromaticism.

Additionally, I've found ways to think about the whole-tone scale that I didn't consider before. I never really played with it before because I don't like its triads, and I don't particularly care for Debussy when he uses it, either. So to heck with triads! I'm now noodling around in 6-EDO (it's easier to change my thinking if I don't call it the "whole-tone scale" -- words matter) in ways that aren't based on my usual ways of thinking. I've actually found a few "chord progressions" (mostly dyads, really, using the major third) that are really interesting and, dare I say it, likable.

Naturally, I don't expect MMM to focus on 12-EDO or 6-EDO compositions; however, I like the idea that there are compositions that I would consider posting here because they could be microtonal in character without being inaccessible from traditional 12-EDO instruments.

Regards,
Jake

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

Jake>"So to heck with triads! I'm now noodling around in 6-EDO (it's easier to change my thinking if I don't call it the "whole-tone scale" -- words matter) in ways that aren't based on my usual ways of thinking.

Nice...6EDO = macrotonal music! One thing cool with that is that worrying about critical band dissonance goes out the window (at least with regard to root-tone dissonance)...no worrying about stacked or nearby-placed semi-tones causing dissonance (as you would if using all 12 notes of 12EDO).
So just about the only remaining looming factor of dyadic tensity is the series of tritone dyads IE from C to F#. Like you said, also, traditional triads are eliminated by switching to 6TET. There is no C E G, only C E G#. Most interestingly, there is no pure fifth!...forcing you composition-wise to find other ways to achieve resolve. Plus the usual major seventh is replaced with a 16/9-ish minor seventh. The fact so many of the dyads have are on different parts of the harmonic series (IE 5/4 vs. 16/9) means making straight JI chords IE 4:5:7:9 or 4:5:6:8 often aren't an option.

To note...after switching to microtonal composition, I've had similar experiences with major vs. minor chords: I don't really care so much anymore. Often I just say "this chord has a strong contrast to the mood...I have to resolve it with something that has a less strong contrast...and all that seems to matter is the average tensity of the progression. Sometimes I will even use diminished chords as a resting point and the major chord will act as the "tense chord" because it sounds out of place.

I think you're right though...6EDO really seems to force you to think microtonally...many if not most of the little musical "crutches" used in the diatonic scale are simply not there and replaced with more exotic options.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

Hi Jake,

You may be interested in this:

http://alonetone.com/vaisvil/tracks/the-good-boundless

The Good Boundless is a rock / jazz fusion piece I've done in strict whole
tone scale. Even the vocals as I ran them through v-vocal to correct
anything out of the scale.

As I remember correctly it was a response to a person on the tuning (or this
list) list saying the whole tone scale couldn't be used for new music
because Debussy has done everything possible with the scale. I disagreed and
this was my response.

Chris

On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Jake Freivald <jdfreivald@...>wrote:

> So to heck with triads! I'm now noodling around in
>
> 6-EDO (it's easier to change my thinking if I don't call it the
> "whole-tone scale" -- words matter) in ways that aren't based on my
> usual ways of thinking. I've actually found a few "chord progressions"
> (mostly dyads, really, using the major third) that are really
> interesting and, dare I say it, likable.
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗Jake Freivald <jdfreivald@...>

> > Hi Jake,
> >
> > You may be interested in this:
> >
> > http://alonetone.com/vaisvil/tracks/the-good-boundless
>

Chris, you're *killing* me with this. So funny to think that it came out
of an argument about Debussy!

What you're doing sounds a lot different from what I was playing around
with, and it's way not Debussy, which makes me want to dig into this
more. It's a good ditty, and I intend to put it into my Blackberry where
I can listen to it on my commute a little easier.

Thanks for the lead!

Regards,
Jake

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Jake Freivald <jdfreivald@...>

Michael said:

> Plus the usual major seventh is replaced with a 16/9-ish minor seventh.

I like that: Playing C E Bb has become a feature of my noodling around.

> The fact so many of the dyads have are on different parts of the harmonic
> series (IE 5/4 vs. 16/9) means making straight JI chords IE 4:5:7:9
or 4:5:6:8
> often aren't an option.

Right. I'm trying to see what options really are available, and I'm
finding I have to stretch beyond the octave to like certain sounds.

> Sometimes I will even use diminished chords as a resting point and
the major
> chord will act as the "tense chord" because it sounds out of place.

YEAH! I think that's pretty amazing. Similarly, I was playing around in
the Locrian mode (white notes starting on B, so no perfect fifth and not
very stable tonality), completely avoiding playing the C for several
minutes (because that has the potential to knock the tonality back into
C Major), and all of a sudden I used C -- and it sounded *weird*. I did
the same thing and ended on a full C Major chord, and it sounded like
aliens were landing on the planet. When you're playing all white keys
and C Major sounds weird, that's pretty cool.

> I think you're right though...6EDO really seems to force you to think
microtonally...
> many if not most of the little musical "crutches" used in the
diatonic scale are
> simply not there and replaced with more exotic options.

That's it. I'm not sure that I'll really like any of what I'm doing; it
may never turn into a "composition"; but it stretches the musical muscles.

Regards,
Jake

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

Thanks for the listen and comment. It turned out to be much easier to to do
than I imagined it would be when started.

Chris

On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 10:53 PM, Jake Freivald <jdfreivald@...>wrote:

>
>
>
> > > Hi Jake,
> > >
> > > You may be interested in this:
> > >
> > > http://alonetone.com/vaisvil/tracks/the-good-boundless
> >
>
> Chris, you're *killing* me with this. So funny to think that it came out
> of an argument about Debussy!
>
> What you're doing sounds a lot different from what I was playing around
> with, and it's way not Debussy, which makes me want to dig into this
> more. It's a good ditty, and I intend to put it into my Blackberry where
> I can listen to it on my commute a little easier.
>
> Thanks for the lead!
>
> Regards,
> Jake
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

I also recommend parallel major 9ths - i.e. C + D an octave above.
Or CGD - the simplest quintal chord (chord built on fifths)
or for that matter CFBb for the simplest quartal chord.

Chris

On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 11:04 PM, Jake Freivald <jdfreivald@...>wrote:

>
>
> Michael said:
>
> > Plus the usual major seventh is replaced with a 16/9-ish minor seventh.
>
> I like that: Playing C E Bb has become a feature of my noodling around.
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

yes, please do.

Thanks,

Chris

On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 1:11 PM, genewardsmith
<genewardsmith@...>wrote:

>
>
>
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Jake,
> >
> > You may be interested in this:
> >
> > http://alonetone.com/vaisvil/tracks/the-good-boundless
> >
> > The Good Boundless is a rock / jazz fusion piece I've done in strict
> whole
> > tone scale. Even the vocals as I ran them through v-vocal to correct
> > anything out of the scale.
>
> Can I stick in a link to this in the 6edo article?
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

hang on, let me give you a better link

On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 1:16 PM, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>wrote:

> yes, please do.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chris
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 1:11 PM, genewardsmith <
> genewardsmith@...> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi Jake,
>> >
>> > You may be interested in this:
>> >
>> > http://alonetone.com/vaisvil/tracks/the-good-boundless
>> >
>> > The Good Boundless is a rock / jazz fusion piece I've done in strict
>> whole
>> > tone scale. Even the vocals as I ran them through v-vocal to correct
>> > anything out of the scale.
>>
>> Can I stick in a link to this in the 6edo article?
>>
>>
>>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

here,

use this link http://micro.soonlabel.com/6edo/the-good-boundless-03.mp3

On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 1:17 PM, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>wrote:

> hang on, let me give you a better link
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 1:16 PM, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>wrote:
>
>> yes, please do.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Chris
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 1:11 PM, genewardsmith <
>> genewardsmith@...> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Hi Jake,
>>> >
>>> > You may be interested in this:
>>> >
>>> > http://alonetone.com/vaisvil/tracks/the-good-boundless
>>> >
>>> > The Good Boundless is a rock / jazz fusion piece I've done in strict
>>> whole
>>> > tone scale. Even the vocals as I ran them through v-vocal to correct
>>> > anything out of the scale.
>>>
>>> Can I stick in a link to this in the 6edo article?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗chrisvaisvil@...

Yes of course. The only stipulation is that I prefer to link the music from my personal web site. That should work out naturally in most cases.

Chris
-----Original Message-----
From: "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@...>
Sender: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 17:56:12
To: <MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com>
Reply-To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MMM] Seeing Twelve through Untwelvish Eyes

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
>
> yes, please do.
>
> Thanks,

Thanks. Can I get a carte blanche to put up links to your music?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗ixlramp <ixlramp@...>

🔗Jake Freivald <jdfreivald@...>

Hi Ixl,

I'm a little more interested in JI than 24 EDO, but I'd read about
guitar stuff just because it's for guitar. :)

For a few days, I retuned my classical to have a perfect 5/4 on the G
string and a perfect 7/4 on the B string, keeping an E on top.
Interesting experiment, but not something I stuck with.

Somewhere Chris has a blog post about wrapping his 12-EDO guitar with
wires to basically give himself removable 24-EDO frets. I don't know
if he ever recorded anything with that, though.

Regards,
Jake

On 3/30/11, ixlramp <ixlramp@...> wrote:
> Hi Jake, I know of a way to restring and retune a 12EDO guitar to play 24EDO
> and simple JI scales ... details coming soon.
> MatC
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Jake Freivald <jdfreivald@...> wrote:
>> Since I don't have
>> untwelve instruments, and it's hard to find the time to actually compose
>> on my laptop, my three main instruments are still guitar (which I was
>> once okay at), mandolin (which I can really just play chords on)
>
>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

here is the blog post - it didn't work out. The wire nibs were painful to
play.

On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 5:54 PM, Jake Freivald <jdfreivald@...> wrote:

>
>
> Hi Ixl,
>
> I'm a little more interested in JI than 24 EDO, but I'd read about
> guitar stuff just because it's for guitar. :)
>
> For a few days, I retuned my classical to have a perfect 5/4 on the G
> string and a perfect 7/4 on the B string, keeping an E on top.
> Interesting experiment, but not something I stuck with.
>
> Somewhere Chris has a blog post about wrapping his 12-EDO guitar with
> wires to basically give himself removable 24-EDO frets. I don't know
> if he ever recorded anything with that, though.
>
> Regards,
> Jake
>
>
> On 3/30/11, ixlramp <ixlramp@...> wrote:
> > Hi Jake, I know of a way to restring and retune a 12EDO guitar to play
> 24EDO
> > and simple JI scales ... details coming soon.
> > MatC
> >
> > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Jake Freivald <jdfreivald@...>
> wrote:
> >> Since I don't have
> >> untwelve instruments, and it's hard to find the time to actually compose
> >> on my laptop, my three main instruments are still guitar (which I was
> >> once okay at), mandolin (which I can really just play chords on)
> >
> >
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗ixlramp <ixlramp@...>

Hi Jake, I created a pdf guide to the 24EDO 'neutral thirds' tuning. For 5-limit JI the strings are retuned to alternating 385 cent JI major thirds and 315 cent minor thirds. Other simple JI systems are possible by micro-retuning every other string ...

http://micro.soonlabel.com/mat_cooper/Neutral%20thirds%20tuning%20for%20quartertones%20on%20conventionally%20fretted%20guitar.pdf

Thanks to Chris for hosting it ;)

MatC

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Jake Freivald <jdfreivald@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Ixl,
>
> I'm a little more interested in JI than 24 EDO, but I'd read about
> guitar stuff just because it's for guitar. :)

> > Hi Jake, I know of a way to restring and retune a 12EDO guitar to play 24EDO
> > and simple JI scales ... details coming soon.
> > MatC