Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup makemicromusic A URL for moderators and other interested parties about dealing with Trolls

In the cases of Michael and Marcel, it's been tried and tried
and tried for 3+ years. The archives are there for examination.
I've been using the internet a long time and I've never seen
anything like it. As much as I'd like to believe that every one
of the world's 7 billion people is emotionally able to carry on
productive discussions on mailing lists, it just isn't so.
The solution, real solution, is moderation. That's why most
forums I use employ active moderation. If Mr Fish's approach
worked, why are they all doing that?

In fact, from Quora, Facebook, Reddit, and Slashdot to various
bulletin boards (one for flashlight fanatics, one for digital
cameras) to academic listservs (computational complexity, lojhan,
linguistics, salvia divinorum) I can't think of a single one that
doesn't have active moderation mechanisms -- sometimes multiple
levels of them.

So I'm going to ask again that Prent and Rick acknowledge and
weigh in on the issue. If indeed, they even read the list.

-Carl

Chris wrote:

>Dealing with Internet Trolls - the Cognitive Therapy Approach
>
> http://unarmed.shlomifish.org/909.html

🔗jonszanto <jszanto@...>

To the Mods, and the List in general:

If I didn't think there were people here who have passion and talent and creativity, I wouldn't bring this up, I'd just walk away. I *do* think MMM has a value, and it might be time to reconsider it.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
> So I'm going to ask again that Prent and Rick acknowledge and
> weigh in on the issue. If indeed, they even read the list.

This made me think a bit, about the last few months of reading the list and where it is, and how it has come here. MMM was opened for discussion on July 20, 2001, so we're approaching a 10-year anniversary. When myself and my two friends opened the place for business, it was originally called Creating Microtonal Music. I don't have much in the way of the supporting files from back then, so I used the Wayback Machine to pull up the earliest days of the forum. Here was the message on the Home page:

"Welcome to Creating Microtonal Music, a forum dedicated specifically to the act of making microtonal music based on, or departing from, a rich assortment of world traditions, styles, tuning systems, and theoretical approaches. As our name suggests, our special focus is on the creation of new music, with mutual encouragement and enthusiasm as we share passages, pieces, and bits of supportive criticism or lively dialog.

Two keynotes of our group are concreteness and civility: keeping discussions closely related to the actual creation of new music, and keeping them friendly.

Other forums provide for general discussions of philosophy, theory, and music history in various cultures; we strive to keep similar remarks reasonably related to actual new passages, pieces, or planned works. We also favor short, on-topic posts, in contrast to the longer or more "academic-style" articles welcomed in other forums.

Keeping it friendly doesn't exclude frank criticism, especially when sought, or even a free clash of ideas, so long as mutual respect between people is maintained (see our Forum Guidelines for more information). To sum up our general approach:

Respect people
Share music and enthusiasm
Exchange ideas
Create!"

*****

It is worth the time for everyone to think about what this forum should be focused on, because I think it has drifted, and in doing so, lessened the value of the place. We've become diluted with discussions that could easily take place more appropriately elsewhere, and lost the flavor of the creation of the music.

That's how I feel about it today, just shy of those 10 years.

Regards,
Jon

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

🔗jonszanto <jszanto@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

as one of the few people who regularly post music here I have to say it is
very disappointing to get either no reply - or find my thread was hijacked
for totally different subjects.
Some rational discussion of my music and how to improve it - get more
xentonal, other techniques to use etc. would be great. Only a small
percentage of posts here seem to be directly related to posted music. It is
a strange situation. I know people listen - I see the hits - but all of the
heated discussion that used to take place on the tuning list has migrated
here for the most part.

Its sad to see an artist the caliber of Carlo not get any response to a post
pointing to his new piece. And I *know* he doesn't have the quality /
consistency problems I have.

Chris

On Sun, Mar 6, 2011 at 10:11 PM, jonszanto <jszanto@...> wrote:

>
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>
> wrote:
> > Yeah, again, about that - I thought you were a moderator here? In
> > fact, I thought you were one of the list owners? But it doesn't seem
> > that way.
>
> Nope, sorry Mike. I handed over the list to Prent, what, 5 years ago or so?
> I probably just shoot my mouth off so often it seems like I must have a
> banhammer laying around somewhere... :)
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Jake Freivald <jdfreivald@...>

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

Chris>"Some rational discussion of my music and how to improve it - get more xentonal, other techniques to use etc. would be great. Only a small
percentage of posts here seem to be directly related to posted music."

Hats off to this! Getting on-topic or even non-in-flamatory responses to posted music is, sadly, very tough to do here as of late.

When I started being really active here about 5 months ago, I migrated here much as I had seen the Tuning list go sour. People there seemed more interesting in correcting each other on academic terms, if not flat out flaming each other over them for "getting them wrong". Often you'd have 3-4 experts fighting at once, calling each other ignorant.

The idea of MMM as a forum where I could post music and look for tips/reviews on music without having "Holy Armies" sent against me seemed refreshing.

So, early on in this list, I posted some songs with little response. And then I noticed, a lot of the people I'd conflicted with on the tuning list followed me.
And the mere mention of what scales I used (IE mine, the ones I mentioned on the tuning list) apparently got people very interested in picking on me for "pretending to be a great scale creator while not being 'academically correct' ".
Then all h--l broke loose... Ozan attacked me for not making music after I'd posted 4+ songs to this list...I posted a new song and he complained even more saying it had "no emotion whatsoever" and then forced me to either defend my songs as "scientifically sound" or not release them.

There was no peace to be had in posting music here...so I by and large stopped doing it. Every time I did post music, I was forced in a corner to defend theories instead of being able to discuss my music and reviews. One obvious example, I complimented Mike B on his post on Debussy PIECES only to receive a huge tirade about how wrong I was to call them "songs" (and so what if I was wrong...is it really worth completely knocking my music-review thread off to force me to defend an honest and not ill-intended-at-all mistake)? Someone just could have sent me a personal message "just for future notice...those Debussy pieces are not technically songs as they have no singing...please call them 'pieces' not 'songs'"...instead of flogging me in public and I would have listened.

I comment on a fair share Chris's and Igs's pieces...but have very little input on my own that doesn't chain back to "your scale is wrong" or "there is no variation at all" or some inflammatory thing like that. And I've noticed Chris gets little input on his songs as well before those threads spin off-topic to something academic like "what chords are in x tuning and how do the tuning's generators work".
The only person I've seen get consistent on-topic and respectful responses on a thread regarding their music is Igs...and granted he's excellent...but you shouldn't have to be freaking "Mozart" to earn honest on-topic reviews and suggestions of posted music here.

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

Jake,

I would be happy to talk about what equipment I used and how I used it to
create a piece.
Or discuss why I did this or that in a composition instead of the other
three alternatives.

When my composition is a pure sound recording improvisation it might get
tough to dig details out - but even then I remember what I did to a degree.

I think this is probably true of every other composer who still posts here.

Chris

On Sun, Mar 6, 2011 at 10:33 PM, Jake Freivald <jdfreivald@...> wrote:

>
>
> > as one of the few people who regularly post music here I have to say
> it is
> > very disappointing to get either no reply - or find my thread was
> hijacked
> > for totally different subjects.
>
> I find myself not wanting to get too chatty about posted music because
> people seem to want to talk about other things. Who wants the new guy to
> ask questions about pieces that nobody else is talking about, or to say
> "nice job" to someone without adding any particular value? But based on
> what Jon sent out, it appears that saying "nice job" (or "meh" or "wow,
> not for me") IS part of the value of the list.
>
> I note that I have a hard time telling the difference between this and
> the Tuning list, sometimes.
>
> Regards,
> Jake
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗jonszanto <jszanto@...>

Chris,

If I might offer my thoughts, and certainly from the heart:

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
>
> as one of the few people who regularly post music here I have to say it is
> very disappointing to get either no reply - or find my thread was hijacked
> for totally different subjects.

Completely understandable. One of the things we've always bumped up against is *how* to give good feedback, along with the crappy situation of this being an older-style mail list, and little of the modern conveniences like inline players for the files. Two thoughts:

1. Maybe it would be possible to - yourself - be a tad selective in what you post? You may be one of the more prolific people I've seen/heard, and even if they aren't lengthy pieces, it is sometimes hard to keep up.

2. When you do, might you have certain areas that you are looking for feedback? I sometimes get frustrated with simply falling back to the "like/dislike" duality, and it may be that you are doing a piece for a specific purpose.

> Its sad to see an artist the caliber of Carlo not get any response to a post
> pointing to his new piece. And I *know* he doesn't have the quality /
> consistency problems I have.

As I mentioned before, when people post in multiple places, they may be getting feedback on another platform. This was the case for Carlo and I.

🔗jonszanto <jszanto@...>

Jake,

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Jake Freivald <jdfreivald@...> wrote:
> But based on
> what Jon sent out, it appears that saying "nice job" (or "meh" or "wow,
> not for me") IS part of the value of the list.

Certainly, in part. You can reference my recent reply to Chris.

> I note that I have a hard time telling the difference between this and
> the Tuning list, sometimes.

Yeah, well, it wasn't always that way. There are times when it is a fine line, but reasonable people can read that basic "preamble" I posted and get a pretty good idea of what does, and doesn't, belong here. Lately I've been getting pretty pissed off.

Usual suspects, of course.

🔗Rick McGowan <rick@...>

Jon asked,

> > So I'm going to ask again that Prent and Rick acknowledge and
> > weigh in on the issue. If indeed, they even read the list.

OK, OK. I'll weigh in. Prent is around, I'm sure, probably just busy!

There's been a lot of odd conversation happening here of late and it's starting to get a little boring to hear people sniping at one another so much. This place is about music. So post music and stop sniping. If you don't like the music someone posts, just ignore it. I don't know about Prent's opinion, but I'm not going to ban anyone here any time soon. Nobody here has *that* many demerits in my book.

Frankly, I haven't really understood what all the recent fuss is about. OK, yeah, I thought it would die down sooner.

I would have thought that if people don't want to read about what someone is posting -- like Marcel who seems to be getting the brunt of unkind comments but who actually seems to be posting things that are on-topic for the list, like pointers to music -- they would just ignore it. Eventually, it would die down. Instead, people seem to be going on and on getting more and more unpleasant. The history of tuning is full of people who think they have the one single right answer. If you think they don't, then why not just ignore them?

Anyway, on other notes... I haven't had a lot of time for *doing* music myself lately, like the last couple of years, because of involvement in some other non-musical epic projects, but... I do read the list here, and listen to some music here, even if I don't comment on it. Sorry. I know it's a bummer to post a piece of music and then get no response, but my impression is that people -- everybody -- are just waaaaaaay too busy and way too stressed. Damn modern life keeps people on the treadmill too much and nobody has time to just enjoy anything.

Cheers,

Rick

🔗jonszanto <jszanto@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

As for selectivity - what would you like to see? I write music in 12 also
and generally no one here knows about it. :-)

Jokes aside I do know what you mean - there is a guy on alonetone who is
creating and posting at twice or 3 times the rate I am. I've lost track of
his work.

Don't misunderstand my complaint - my point is the MMM members would rather
bicker then acknowledge music being posted - no matter who the composer.

Chris

as for #2 - I am usually trying out techniques and I'd like to gather
general impressions - "does what I intended get across"? Though like anyone
else I like to talk shop.

On Sun, Mar 6, 2011 at 10:45 PM, jonszanto <jszanto@...> wrote:

>
>
> 1. Maybe it would be possible to - yourself - be a tad selective in what
> you post? You may be one of the more prolific people I've seen/heard, and
> even if they aren't lengthy pieces, it is sometimes hard to keep up.
>
> 2. When you do, might you have certain areas that you are looking for
> feedback? I sometimes get frustrated with simply falling back to the
> "like/dislike" duality, and it may be that you are doing a piece for a
> specific purpose.
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗prentrodgers <prentrodgers@...>

Prent here. I agree with Rick. Personal attacks are not encouraged.

It is odd that on March 3 two people joined the list, and both immediately started posting articles defending Marcel, acting as if they were independent scholars. I don't have proof, but it is very odd.

I recommend that Marcel, lobawad, and "purest_intonation" take a breather and stop posting for a while. Get a blog. If your ideas are so wonderful, you will have a large audience for your writings. If not, too bad.

The Making Microtonal Music forum as a stated purpose:

"Making Microtonal Music, a forum dedicated to composers, performers, and listeners of microtonal music. Microtonality explores tuning systems that are different from the 12-tone to the octave equal temperament that has dominated Western music for the last 150 years. This forum welcomes participation from all interested parties at any level of exploration."

That's pretty wide open. But in the past it has been used to encourage making of microtonal music, as opposed to long theoretical descriptions of one tuning idea or another. And it doesn't say anything about sniping.

Prent Rodgers

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Rick McGowan <rick@...> wrote:
>
> Jon asked,
>
> > > So I'm going to ask again that Prent and Rick acknowledge and
> > > weigh in on the issue. If indeed, they even read the list.
>
> OK, OK. I'll weigh in. Prent is around, I'm sure, probably just busy!
>
> There's been a lot of odd conversation happening here of late and it's
> starting to get a little boring to hear people sniping at one another so
> much. This place is about music. So post music and stop sniping. If you
> don't like the music someone posts, just ignore it. I don't know about

🔗Aaron Krister Johnson <aaron@...>

Why can't we simply take the initiative to give these three (presumably,
'pure_intonation' may be Marcel himself) a warning, and if they don't shape
up, ban them? There are plenty of opportunities for those interested in
Marcel's "work", or for those interested in forming JI cults to do so
elsewhere, after all. The only reason for them to stick around is because
they enjoy pissing everyone else off and wasting their time with their
annoying noise.

I say they've already worn out their welcome, and I don't think anyone here
who regularly reads and posts is anything but fed up over their behavior and
spamming.

Anyway, I find the horrible signal to noise ratio here completely
discouraging. I can't remember another time where the quantity of posts has
been so high while the quality of the content was so low. I've all but given
up on this group. If nothing is done by the moderators soon, I would like to
propose starting a new groups with a small group of interested folks who are
serious about discussing *music*, not whining endlessly, not engaging in
abusive trolling, etc. Certainly banning Marcel and 'pure_intonation', his
doppelganger, for eternity would be the logical first step of such a group.

AKJ

On Mon, Mar 7, 2011 at 10:06 AM, prentrodgers <prentrodgers@...>wrote:

> Prent here. I agree with Rick. Personal attacks are not encouraged.
>
> It is odd that on March 3 two people joined the list, and both immediately
> started posting articles defending Marcel, acting as if they were
> independent scholars. I don't have proof, but it is very odd.
>
> I recommend that Marcel, lobawad, and "purest_intonation" take a breather
> and stop posting for a while. Get a blog. If your ideas are so wonderful,
> you will have a large audience for your writings. If not, too bad.
>
> The Making Microtonal Music forum as a stated purpose:
>
> "Making Microtonal Music, a forum dedicated to composers, performers, and
> listeners of microtonal music. Microtonality explores tuning systems that
> are different from the 12-tone to the octave equal temperament that has
> dominated Western music for the last 150 years. This forum welcomes
> participation from all interested parties at any level of exploration."
>
> That's pretty wide open. But in the past it has been used to encourage
> making of microtonal music, as opposed to long theoretical descriptions of
> one tuning idea or another. And it doesn't say anything about sniping.
>
> Prent Rodgers
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Rick McGowan <rick@...> wrote:
> >
> > Jon asked,
> >
> > > > So I'm going to ask again that Prent and Rick acknowledge and
> > > > weigh in on the issue. If indeed, they even read the list.
> >
> > OK, OK. I'll weigh in. Prent is around, I'm sure, probably just busy!
> >
> > There's been a lot of odd conversation happening here of late and it's
> > starting to get a little boring to hear people sniping at one another so
> > much. This place is about music. So post music and stop sniping. If you
> > don't like the music someone posts, just ignore it. I don't know about
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

--
Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.akjmusic.com
http://www.untwelve.org

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗prentrodgers <prentrodgers@...>

I have sent off-list messages to the sock puppets to cut it out. I'll try to monitor the list more aggressively to keep the fires out. Don't go just yet, please.

Prent Rodgers

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Krister Johnson <aaron@...> wrote:
>
> Why can't we simply take the initiative to give these three (presumably,
> 'pure_intonation' may be Marcel himself) a warning, and if they don't shape
> up, ban them? There are plenty of opportunities for those interested in
> Marcel's "work", or for those interested in forming JI cults to do so
> elsewhere, after all. The only reason for them to stick around is because
> they enjoy pissing everyone else off and wasting their time with their
> annoying noise.
>
> I say they've already worn out their welcome, and I don't think anyone here
> who regularly reads and posts is anything but fed up over their behavior and
> spamming.
>
> Anyway, I find the horrible signal to noise ratio here completely
> discouraging. I can't remember another time where the quantity of posts has
> been so high while the quality of the content was so low. I've all but given
> up on this group. If nothing is done by the moderators soon, I would like to
> propose starting a new groups with a small group of interested folks who are
> serious about discussing *music*, not whining endlessly, not engaging in
> abusive trolling, etc. Certainly banning Marcel and 'pure_intonation', his
> doppelganger, for eternity would be the logical first step of such a group.
>
> AKJ
>
> On Mon, Mar 7, 2011 at 10:06 AM, prentrodgers <prentrodgers@...>wrote:
>
> > Prent here. I agree with Rick. Personal attacks are not encouraged.
> >
> > It is odd that on March 3 two people joined the list, and both immediately
> > started posting articles defending Marcel, acting as if they were
> > independent scholars. I don't have proof, but it is very odd.
> >
> > I recommend that Marcel, lobawad, and "purest_intonation" take a breather
> > and stop posting for a while. Get a blog. If your ideas are so wonderful,
> > you will have a large audience for your writings. If not, too bad.
> >
> > The Making Microtonal Music forum as a stated purpose:
> >
> > "Making Microtonal Music, a forum dedicated to composers, performers, and
> > listeners of microtonal music. Microtonality explores tuning systems that
> > are different from the 12-tone to the octave equal temperament that has
> > dominated Western music for the last 150 years. This forum welcomes
> > participation from all interested parties at any level of exploration."
> >
> > That's pretty wide open. But in the past it has been used to encourage
> > making of microtonal music, as opposed to long theoretical descriptions of
> > one tuning idea or another. And it doesn't say anything about sniping.
> >
> > Prent Rodgers
> >
> > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Rick McGowan <rick@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Jon asked,
> > >
> > > > > So I'm going to ask again that Prent and Rick acknowledge and
> > > > > weigh in on the issue. If indeed, they even read the list.
> > >
> > > OK, OK. I'll weigh in. Prent is around, I'm sure, probably just busy!
> > >
> > > There's been a lot of odd conversation happening here of late and it's
> > > starting to get a little boring to hear people sniping at one another so
> > > much. This place is about music. So post music and stop sniping. If you
> > > don't like the music someone posts, just ignore it. I don't know about
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Aaron Krister Johnson
> http://www.akjmusic.com
> http://www.untwelve.org
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

🔗Rick McGowan <rick@...>

🔗Marcel <m.develde@...>

Hi Prent,

> Prent here. I agree with Rick. Personal attacks are not encouraged.
>

Good.
I hope that you see that I do not start such attacks and flames, and have even stopped responding / defending myself to them all together.

> It is odd that on March 3 two people joined the list, and both immediately started posting articles defending Marcel, acting as if they were independent scholars. I don't have proof, but it is very odd.
>

I hereby swear that they are not me.
Nor do I have any knowledge of who they are, nor have I had any off-list contact with any.

I can speculate that recent circumstances have brought people to start replying, and in the case of lobawad do so under an alias (which is an ok thing to do in my book, this is the Internet, it's common practice)

> I recommend that Marcel, lobawad, and "purest_intonation" take a breather and stop posting for a while. Get a blog. If your ideas are so wonderful, you will have a large audience for your writings. If not, too bad.
>

I take you (and Rick) to be a sensible and good person usually.
One of the reasons I like this list.

But now I feel singled out, and that you're influenced by unfair pressure from several very (negatively) outspoken people on this list.
This list has always been used for theory discussion as well.
The countless theories I see coming by here. With many more replies / posts than my thread.
At the same time as my thread was started, Michael also had a thread "wreckless" something. And several other threads are going on that are not about posted music.

My thread is actually the most on topic thread going on right now?
I have posted 2 microtonal (Just Intonation) midi and audio files, and we're discussing the tuning technique and the why and how.
More files will be posted soon, including original compositions.

Meanwhile there is endless social chatter and fighting etc etc going on by a select group of people on this list. Carl, AKJ, Oz, Mike, John, Michael, etc.
Their message count is way higher than mine, and they're way more often off topic.
It's just that most of these people I just names have taken a disliking in me in some ways, and they're screaming (more messages than I post actually) to have me removed.

I hope your vision changes.
If not, feel free to let me know as the list owner that I'm not welcome here anymore and I will of course leave.

> The Making Microtonal Music forum as a stated purpose:
>
> "Making Microtonal Music, a forum dedicated to composers, performers, and listeners of microtonal music. Microtonality explores tuning systems that are different from the 12-tone to the octave equal temperament that has dominated Western music for the last 150 years. This forum welcomes participation from all interested parties at any level of exploration."
>
> That's pretty wide open. But in the past it has been used to encourage making of microtonal music, as opposed to long theoretical descriptions of one tuning idea or another. And it doesn't say anything about sniping.
>

As I described above already.
My theoretical discussions here about tuning are a mere drop in the pond of theoretical discussion here. (not to mention the enormous amount of off topic discussions here where music isn't even named)
Furthermore, my theories are to help people tune and compose music.
I'm sure several people are silently reading with interest.

-Marcel

> Prent Rodgers
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Rick McGowan <rick@> wrote:
> >
> > Jon asked,
> >
> > > > So I'm going to ask again that Prent and Rick acknowledge and
> > > > weigh in on the issue. If indeed, they even read the list.
> >
> > OK, OK. I'll weigh in. Prent is around, I'm sure, probably just busy!
> >
> > There's been a lot of odd conversation happening here of late and it's
> > starting to get a little boring to hear people sniping at one another so
> > much. This place is about music. So post music and stop sniping. If you
> > don't like the music someone posts, just ignore it. I don't know about
>

🔗jonszanto <jszanto@...>

Marcel,

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Marcel" <m.develde@...> wrote:
> This list has always been used for theory discussion as well.

The above is a factually incorrect statement. In point of fact, this list was *created* as an alternative to a theory-oriented list - that was, in fact, what the original "tuning" list was, as started at Mills College. MMM came into existence to open a forum for information and discussion of the active creation of music, with less of a focus on the internals of the tuning schema, and more of a focus on using those tunings in a musical vehicle.

The list maintained that focus for many of it's years of existence, and only in the last couple of years has it drifted from the original intention. Much of the discussion, and much of the disgruntlement, stems from this variation from the intended goals.

Feel free to read the original post in this thread. You'll see, very clearly spelled out, what this mailing list is supposed to be about, not what you are helping cause it to veer into. The current talk, a fair amount of it from me, is in an effort to steer this place back onto it's originally intended course. Unless you are planning on being active in creating new pieces, as opposed to endlessly retuning the same three, centuries old works, this is probably not the best place for you to be posting.

That would be the main tuning list.

A URL for moderators and other interested parties about dealing with Trolls

🔗christopherv <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗jonszanto <jszanto@...>

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

🔗jonszanto <jszanto@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗Jake Freivald <jdfreivald@...>

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗jonszanto <jszanto@...>

🔗jonszanto <jszanto@...>

🔗Rick McGowan <rick@...>

🔗jonszanto <jszanto@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

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