11 equal, continued

Recently there were brief discussions about 11 equal divisions of the octave. George Secor posted a piece from decades ago, a remarkable accomplishment considering the technology of the time. Igliashon Jones has pieces in 11, may we have links to them again?

In the Lobawad folder here under "Files" you will find a piece in 11 equal, taken from a larger work, Raspberry Velvet.

About internet identity, I no longer think we should care. If a troop of Royal Canadian Mounted police passed by on horseback, and the droppings of their mounts spelled out by pure coincidence upon the tarmac something of value, would it be of any more or less value than if Ghandi or Jack the Ripper had penned it? Arguments from authority, or lack thereof, are fallacious.

no thanks.

On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 5:13 AM, lobawad <lobawad@...> wrote:

>
>
> Recently there were brief discussions about 11 equal divisions of the
> octave. George Secor posted a piece from decades ago, a remarkable
> accomplishment considering the technology of the time. Igliashon Jones has
> pieces in 11, may we have links to them again?
>
> In the Lobawad folder here under "Files" you will find a piece in 11 equal,
> taken from a larger work, Raspberry Velvet.
>
> About internet identity, I no longer think we should care. If a troop of
> Royal Canadian Mounted police passed by on horseback, and the droppings of
> their mounts spelled out by pure coincidence upon the tarmac something of
> value, would it be of any more or less value than if Ghandi or Jack the
> Ripper had penned it? Arguments from authority, or lack thereof, are
> fallacious.
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lobawad>"About internet identity, I no longer think we should care. If a troop of Royal Canadian Mounted police passed by on horseback, and the droppings of their mounts spelled out by pure coincidence upon the tarmac something of value, would it be of any more or less value than if Gandhi or Jack the Ripper had penned it? Arguments from authority, or lack thereof, are fallacious."

Exactly! And yet left and right we get comments akin to "If you knew anything about Erv Wilson's (or Paul Erlich or Harry Partch's, or Helmholtz's or Wendy Carlos's...) papers, you would think differently", followed by "I know more about Erv Wilson than you" and then "so my tunings and ultimately my music are automatically better than yours and you need to 'humble up' and listen to ME...oops...I mean ERV!". :-D

And yet, Carl has a very good point: there is an asymmetry in our
interactions here: we stand and speak as ourselves, you behind a mask. You
risk nothing in such interactions, feeling free to 'lob a wad' in any
direction.

AKJ

On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 4:13 AM, lobawad <lobawad@...> wrote:

>
> About internet identity, I no longer think we should care. If a troop of
> Royal Canadian Mounted police passed by on horseback, and the droppings of
> their mounts spelled out by pure coincidence upon the tarmac something of
> value, would it be of any more or less value than if Ghandi or Jack the
> Ripper had penned it? Arguments from authority, or lack thereof, are
> fallacious.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

--
Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.akjmusic.com
http://www.untwelve.org

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Oh for "Bob's" sake, I've been using a pseudonym here (and most other places on the internet) FOREVER and no one's called me out on it before. It wasn't until my UnTwelve entry that my real name hit the 'nets. What's the big deal, really?

And who's to say I'm not using another one for this "suspicious" Lobawad character? It certainly won't be beneath me to pull such an antic.

-Igs

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Krister Johnson <aaron@...> wrote:
>
> And yet, Carl has a very good point: there is an asymmetry in our
> interactions here: we stand and speak as ourselves, you behind a mask. You
> risk nothing in such interactions, feeling free to 'lob a wad' in any
> direction.
>
> AKJ
>
> On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 4:13 AM, lobawad <lobawad@...> wrote:
>
> >
> > About internet identity, I no longer think we should care. If a troop of
> > Royal Canadian Mounted police passed by on horseback, and the droppings of
> > their mounts spelled out by pure coincidence upon the tarmac something of
> > value, would it be of any more or less value than if Ghandi or Jack the
> > Ripper had penned it? Arguments from authority, or lack thereof, are
> > fallacious.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Aaron Krister Johnson
> http://www.akjmusic.com
> http://www.untwelve.org
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Igs wrote:

>Oh for "Bob's" sake, I've been using a pseudonym here (and most other
>places on the internet) FOREVER and no one's called me out on it
>before. It wasn't until my UnTwelve entry that my real name hit the
>'nets. What's the big deal, really?

It's slightly better in your case since you've used it from day 1.
You have a reputation, just a virtual one. However I still think
it registers about 0.5 on the douchometer.

>And who's to say I'm not using another one for this "suspicious"
>Lobawad character? It certainly won't be beneath me to pull such an antic.

Because Lobawad is obviously Cameron. Did no one download his
11-ET piece? (I thought it was really nice!)

-Carl

On 3/4/2011 5:13 AM, lobawad wrote:
> Recently there were brief discussions about 11 equal divisions of the
> octave. George Secor posted a piece from decades ago, a remarkable
> accomplishment considering the technology of the time. Igliashon
> Jones has pieces in 11, may we have links to them again?
>
> In the Lobawad folder here under "Files" you will find a piece in 11
> equal, taken from a larger work, Raspberry Velvet.

Around 2002-2003 I tried a little writing in 11-ET. I never finished anything, but I put up a few incomplete versions on my Google site (http://sites.google.com/site/teamouse/).

"It Can Be Done!"

http://sites.google.com/site/teamouse/it-can-be-done.mp3

The first two examples on the recording were rendered with the A. Walter (1790) piano in Pianoteq. The final version is done with sounds from Garritan Personal Orchestra, World Instruments, and Jazz & Big Band. It sounds a lot better than anything I had available in 2003!

Maybe I'll get back to it one of these days.

My original response has apparently vanished into some mystical dimension.

Briefly, your third example Teamouse is smooth and coherent, very nice, and I shall listen to it more times. The first two examples do not in my estimation succeed. They are structued on "blocks" of harmonic approximations (partials 7, 9 and 11, sounds like) which try to function as functional chords. This doesn't really work, as the identity and perceived root/fundamental/center of "chords" change greatly with voicing in 11-equal. It sounds like "forced rhyming".

The third example, by virtue of the snaking melody, has the effect of laying out harmonic fields in small pieces, with the edges perceived as blended, rather than stepping from one discrete unit to another, and works very nicely.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Herman Miller <hmiller@...> wrote:
>
> On 3/4/2011 5:13 AM, lobawad wrote:
> > Recently there were brief discussions about 11 equal divisions of the
> > octave. George Secor posted a piece from decades ago, a remarkable
> > accomplishment considering the technology of the time. Igliashon
> > Jones has pieces in 11, may we have links to them again?
> >
> > In the Lobawad folder here under "Files" you will find a piece in 11
> > equal, taken from a larger work, Raspberry Velvet.
>
> Around 2002-2003 I tried a little writing in 11-ET. I never finished
> anything, but I put up a few incomplete versions on my Google site
> (http://sites.google.com/site/teamouse/).
>
> "It Can Be Done!"
>
> http://sites.google.com/site/teamouse/it-can-be-done.mp3
>
> The first two examples on the recording were rendered with the A. Walter
> (1790) piano in Pianoteq. The final version is done with sounds from
> Garritan Personal Orchestra, World Instruments, and Jazz & Big Band. It
> sounds a lot better than anything I had available in 2003!
>
> Maybe I'll get back to it one of these days.
>

Cam, if you forward it to me I'll see if I can repost from here.
Yahoo's spam filter has issues with your ISP. -Carl

At 05:57 AM 3/5/2011, you wrote:
>My quite long and detailed post on 11-equal did not show up, let us
>see if this one does.
>

On Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 2:41 PM, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
>
> Cam, if you forward it to me I'll see if I can repost from here.
> Yahoo's spam filter has issues with your ISP. -Carl

Ding ding ding.

-Mike

Cameron wrote:
>My original response has apparently vanished into some mystical dimension.
>Briefly, your third example Teamouse is smooth and coherent,

I find the piquant fortepiano timbre pretty well excruciating
in this tuning. The 3rd example is a bit better because it has
the flute, but I still hear much dissonance.

I'm starting to wonder if Cool My Head, my favorite Untwelve
entry, is really in 11-ET
http://www.focalchords.com/audio/Cool_My_Head_11EDO.mp3

-Carl

Thanks for the offer Car'- I'll have to rewrite it though, as I foolishly failed to pen the thing in a text editor, and those goody-goody f**kers the Seeker and Kahlen put the kabosh on my practice of engraving my thoughts into the flesh of unfortunate prisoners.

Last night I got a commission for a very long piece of music, so I'll be lobbing my wads in gaps and gasps, according to the ragged rhythm of working. Posting from the studio doesn't seem to encounter the invisible barriers experienced at home.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
>
> Cam, if you forward it to me I'll see if I can repost from here.
> Yahoo's spam filter has issues with your ISP. -Carl
>
> At 05:57 AM 3/5/2011, you wrote:
> >My quite long and detailed post on 11-equal did not show up, let us
> >see if this one does.
> >
>

Given 0 on C, the "clarinet2 melody is steps 8, 10, 7, then 7, 8, 5 and so on, the vocals go 1, 2, 8 etc. It's in eleven. Big thumbs up to the singer, great job, and an excellent microtonal achievement altogether.

This should have won a prize.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
>
> Cameron wrote:
> >My original response has apparently vanished into some mystical dimension.
> >Briefly, your third example Teamouse is smooth and coherent,
>
> I find the piquant fortepiano timbre pretty well excruciating
> in this tuning. The 3rd example is a bit better because it has
> the flute, but I still hear much dissonance.
>
> I'm starting to wonder if Cool My Head, my favorite Untwelve
> entry, is really in 11-ET
> http://www.focalchords.com/audio/Cool_My_Head_11EDO.mp3
>
> -Carl
>

At 12:21 AM 3/6/2011, you wrote:
>Given 0 on C, the "clarinet2 melody is steps 8, 10, 7, then 7, 8, 5
>and so on, the vocals go 1, 2, 8 etc. It's in eleven. Big thumbs up to
>the singer, great job, and an excellent microtonal achievement altogether.
>
>This should have won a prize.

Like, yeah.

I assumed (or read that) the singer was tuned in Melodyne
but still. -Carl

I thought I heard some of "that sound", but there's a boo-boo on a 3-1-0 in the vocal, in which the ingrained intonation of a stereotyped figure from 12-tET peeks through, so I think the melodyning is mild compared to what's on the radio. As you say, but still. A serious microtonal accomlishment.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
>
> At 12:21 AM 3/6/2011, you wrote:
> >Given 0 on C, the "clarinet2 melody is steps 8, 10, 7, then 7, 8, 5
> >and so on, the vocals go 1, 2, 8 etc. It's in eleven. Big thumbs up to
> >the singer, great job, and an excellent microtonal achievement altogether.
> >
> >This should have won a prize.
>
> Like, yeah.
>
> I assumed (or read that) the singer was tuned in Melodyne
> but still. -Carl
>

It has a pink panthery swing to it, which I like.

Oz.

--

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

Herman Miller wrote:
> On 3/4/2011 5:13 AM, lobawad wrote:
>> Recently there were brief discussions about 11 equal divisions of the
>> octave. George Secor posted a piece from decades ago, a remarkable
>> accomplishment considering the technology of the time. Igliashon
>> Jones has pieces in 11, may we have links to them again?
>>
>> In the Lobawad folder here under "Files" you will find a piece in 11
>> equal, taken from a larger work, Raspberry Velvet.
>
> Around 2002-2003 I tried a little writing in 11-ET. I never finished
> anything, but I put up a few incomplete versions on my Google site
> (http://sites.google.com/site/teamouse/).
>
> "It Can Be Done!"
>
> http://sites.google.com/site/teamouse/it-can-be-done.mp3
>
> The first two examples on the recording were rendered with the A. Walter
> (1790) piano in Pianoteq. The final version is done with sounds from
> Garritan Personal Orchestra, World Instruments, and Jazz& Big Band. It
> sounds a lot better than anything I had available in 2003!
>
> Maybe I'll get back to it one of these days.
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Herman,

I really didn't care for the beginning, perhaps because of the dullness of
the velocity expression (sounded very mechanically "all 96 velocity" played
instead of phrased by a human performer), but things became much nicer and
pleasing for my ears at around 50" when a more colorful ensemble entered.

In any event, it was intriguing work, and I'm curious to hear more of what
you'd do.

AKJ

On Mon, Mar 7, 2011 at 5:23 PM, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>wrote:

> It has a pink panthery swing to it, which I like.
>
> Oz.
>
> --
>
> ✩ ✩ ✩
> www.ozanyarman.com
>
>
> Herman Miller wrote:
> > On 3/4/2011 5:13 AM, lobawad wrote:
> >> Recently there were brief discussions about 11 equal divisions of the
> >> octave. George Secor posted a piece from decades ago, a remarkable
> >> accomplishment considering the technology of the time. Igliashon
> >> Jones has pieces in 11, may we have links to them again?
> >>
> >> In the Lobawad folder here under "Files" you will find a piece in 11
> >> equal, taken from a larger work, Raspberry Velvet.
> >
> > Around 2002-2003 I tried a little writing in 11-ET. I never finished
> > anything, but I put up a few incomplete versions on my Google site
> > (http://sites.google.com/site/teamouse/).
> >
> > "It Can Be Done!"
> >
> > http://sites.google.com/site/teamouse/it-can-be-done.mp3
> >
> > The first two examples on the recording were rendered with the A. Walter
> > (1790) piano in Pianoteq. The final version is done with sounds from
> > Garritan Personal Orchestra, World Instruments, and Jazz& Big Band. It
> > sounds a lot better than anything I had available in 2003!
> >
> > Maybe I'll get back to it one of these days.
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

--
Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.akjmusic.com
http://www.untwelve.org

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

One thing that always piqued my interest is how Herman's Mizarian
Porcupine themes are mot-a-mot present in Wendy Carlos' Beauty and the
Beast CD album. Or is it the other way around?

Oz.

--

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

Aaron Krister Johnson wrote:
> Herman,
>
> I really didn't care for the beginning, perhaps because of the dullness of
> the velocity expression (sounded very mechanically "all 96 velocity" played
> instead of phrased by a human performer), but things became much nicer and
> pleasing for my ears at around 50" when a more colorful ensemble entered.
>
> In any event, it was intriguing work, and I'm curious to hear more of what
> you'd do.
>
> AKJ
>
> On Mon, Mar 7, 2011 at 5:23 PM, Ozan Yarman<ozanyarman@...>wrote:
>
>> It has a pink panthery swing to it, which I like.
>>
>> Oz.
>>
>> --
>>
>> ✩ ✩ ✩
>> www.ozanyarman.com
>>
>>
>> Herman Miller wrote:
>>> On 3/4/2011 5:13 AM, lobawad wrote:
>>>> Recently there were brief discussions about 11 equal divisions of the
>>>> octave. George Secor posted a piece from decades ago, a remarkable
>>>> accomplishment considering the technology of the time. Igliashon
>>>> Jones has pieces in 11, may we have links to them again?
>>>>
>>>> In the Lobawad folder here under "Files" you will find a piece in 11
>>>> equal, taken from a larger work, Raspberry Velvet.
>>> Around 2002-2003 I tried a little writing in 11-ET. I never finished
>>> anything, but I put up a few incomplete versions on my Google site
>>> (http://sites.google.com/site/teamouse/).
>>>
>>> "It Can Be Done!"
>>>
>>> http://sites.google.com/site/teamouse/it-can-be-done.mp3
>>>
>>> The first two examples on the recording were rendered with the A. Walter
>>> (1790) piano in Pianoteq. The final version is done with sounds from
>>> Garritan Personal Orchestra, World Instruments, and Jazz& Big Band. It
>>> sounds a lot better than anything I had available in 2003!
>>>
>>> Maybe I'll get back to it one of these days.
>>>
>>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 3/7/2011 6:46 PM, Ozan Yarman wrote:
> One thing that always piqued my interest is how Herman's Mizarian
> Porcupine themes are mot-a-mot present in Wendy Carlos' Beauty and the
> Beast CD album. Or is it the other way around?
>
> Oz.
>

Carlos Alpha and 15-ET have some similarities in the harmonic and melodic properties, but I don't know of any conscious borrowings from "Beauty in the Beast" in my Mizarian Porcupine Overture. You could find general similarities -- they both have quiet, harmonious parts and loud, dissonant parts in an odd meter (7/8 vs. 11/8), but not anything more specific. Or you could be thinking of "Poem for Bali" from the same album, as I've been known to take ideas from Balinese music....

Mizarian Porcupine is an example of a piece that is strongly "in" a regular temperament. You can hear the chord progessions "turning back in upon" themselves, as a ii-V-I does in meantone for example. It is a great example, and an "underground classic" as a piece of music.

Gene's pieces, using microtemperaments, are too subtle and advanced in this way to demonstrate what's going on, except to the hardcore listener. That leaves, to my knowledge, only Mizarian Porcupine and a couple of pieces by Petr Parizek (Run the Whistle Down being one) as easily audible examples of what the "regular temperament paradigm" is about.

Herman, you harm the "regular temperament paradigm" by talking about the "harmonic and melodic properties of 15-et" here. Harmonic and melodic properties of any tuning are mostly dependent on modality for one thing, and for another thing, 15 equal divisions of the octave is really pretty much only "coincidentally" related to Porcupine temperament.

The sixth root of 7:4, the specific mapping of primes in the temperament, and the commas tempered out are the key elements of Porcupine. It is nice that 15 equal divisions of the octave approximates these elements very well, but "15-et" and "Porcupine" do NOT equate.

Obviously you know this, you created the temperament, but as I keep saying (for years now), if you want non-acolytes to dig what you're doing, you have to speak in a way that does not cloud fundamental concepts.

lobawad wrote:

>Hopefully this example will help demonstrate how radically different
>Godzilla temperament actually is from "19tET", more later if anyone is
>interested.

Nice ditty, but I don't see how it demonstrates this.

[snip]
>Gene's pieces, using microtemperaments, are too subtle and advanced in
>this way to demonstrate what's going on, except to the hardcore
>listener. That leaves, to my knowledge, only Mizarian Porcupine and a
>couple of pieces by Petr Parizek (Run the Whistle Down being one) as
>easily audible examples of what the "regular temperament paradigm"
>is about.

The regular mapping paradigm is about more than just the extreme
puns, but as those go don't forget Easley Blackwood, several other
examples by Herman and Petr, and Paul Erlich, and Igs. And for
that matter, the many thousands of compositions in 12-ET that make
use of its commas.

>The sixth root of 7:4, the specific mapping of primes in the
>temperament, and the commas tempered out are the key elements of
>Porcupine. It is nice that 15 equal divisions of the octave
>approximates these elements very well, but "15-et" and "Porcupine" do
>NOT equate.
>Obviously you know this, you created the temperament, but as I keep
>saying (for years now), if you want non-acolytes to dig what you're
>doing, you have to speak in a way that does not cloud fundamental
>concepts.

I don't get it. What did Herman ever say that clouds the
fundamental concepts?

-Carl

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
>
> lobawad wrote:
>
> >Hopefully this example will help demonstrate how radically >different
> >Godzilla temperament actually is from "19tET", more later if >anyone is
> >interested.
>
> Nice ditty, but I don't see how it demonstrates this.

"19-tET" with further qualification refers to the 1/3-comma meantone modality of 19 equal divisions of the octave. Has for centuries, mainstream stuff really.

In the example, using a 9-tone moment of symmetry and the "godzilla temperament", the "major thirds" of the "tertian chords" are 442 cents wide and step sizes alternate between the mean tone and 253 cents. This is simply NOT 1/3 comma meantone. Just because you can line up false relations and wrong notes to match points on the grid laid out by 1/3 comma meantone doesn't make it "19tET" at all.

Xenharmonic, but the harmonic movement is smooth, and durable when it comes to voicing, so it must have a rhyme and reason to it other than 1/3 comma meantone (in terms of which it is a pile of false relations and wrong notes).

That internal logic of the tuning is "godzilla", not "19tET".

>
> [snip]
> >Gene's pieces, using microtemperaments, are too subtle and >advanced in
> >this way to demonstrate what's going on, except to the hardcore
> >listener. That leaves, to my knowledge, only Mizarian Porcupine >and a
> >couple of pieces by Petr Parizek (Run the Whistle Down being one) as
> >easily audible examples of what the "regular temperament paradigm"
> >is about.
>
> The regular mapping paradigm is about more than just the extreme
> puns, but as those go don't forget Easley Blackwood, several other
> examples by Herman and Petr, and Paul Erlich, and Igs. And for
> that matter, the many thousands of compositions in 12-ET that make
> use of its commas.

I didn't say that the RTP was only about extreme puns, in fact I said something quite contrary- Gene's works are full of micro puns. What the RTP is about is surely a great variety of fundamentally different internal structures, with their own logic.

>
> I don't get it. What did Herman ever say that clouds the
> fundamental concepts?

See this exchange:
On 3/7/2011 6:46 PM, Ozan Yarman wrote:
> One thing that always piqued my interest is how Herman's Mizarian
> Porcupine themes are mot-a-mot present in Wendy Carlos' Beauty and
> the Beast CD album. Or is it the other way around?
>
> Oz.
>

To which Herman replied:

"Carlos Alpha and 15-ET have some similarities in the harmonic and
melodic properties, but I don't know of any conscious borrowings from
"Beauty in the Beast" in my Mizarian Porcupine Overture."

To which I said, A: "harmonic and melodic properties" of 15-et (or any other equal division or tuning) depend on modality, and B: Mizarian Porcupine is in Porupine temperament, not 15-et.

No, I'm positive, there is an unmistakable thematic similarity with your
work.

Oz.

--

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

Herman Miller wrote:
> On 3/7/2011 6:46 PM, Ozan Yarman wrote:
>> One thing that always piqued my interest is how Herman's Mizarian
>> Porcupine themes are mot-a-mot present in Wendy Carlos' Beauty and the
>> Beast CD album. Or is it the other way around?
>>
>> Oz.
>>
>
> Carlos Alpha and 15-ET have some similarities in the harmonic and
> melodic properties, but I don't know of any conscious borrowings from
> "Beauty in the Beast" in my Mizarian Porcupine Overture. You could find
> general similarities -- they both have quiet, harmonious parts and loud,
> dissonant parts in an odd meter (7/8 vs. 11/8), but not anything more
> specific. Or you could be thinking of "Poem for Bali" from the same
> album, as I've been known to take ideas from Balinese music....
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

lobawad wrote:

>>> Hopefully this example will help demonstrate how radically different
>>> Godzilla temperament actually is from "19tET", more later if anyone
>>> is interested.
>>
>> Nice ditty, but I don't see how it demonstrates this.
>
>"19-tET" with further qualification refers to the 1/3-comma meantone
>modality of 19 equal divisions of the octave. Has for centuries,
>mainstream stuff really.

"19-tET" may refer to many things. One of them is a rank 1
regular temperament with the 5-limit val <19 30 44|.

>In the example, using a 9-tone moment of symmetry and the "godzilla
>temperament", the "major thirds" of the "tertian chords" are 442 cents
>wide and step sizes alternate between the mean tone and 253 cents.
>This is simply NOT 1/3 comma meantone.

No argument here.

>Just because you can line up
>false relations and wrong notes to match points on the grid laid out
>by 1/3 comma meantone doesn't make it "19tET" at all.

Godzilla can also generate 19-ET.

>> I don't get it. What did Herman ever say that clouds the
>> fundamental concepts?
>
>See this exchange:
[snip]
>"Carlos Alpha and 15-ET have some similarities in the harmonic and
>melodic properties, but I don't know of any conscious borrowings from
>"Beauty in the Beast" in my Mizarian Porcupine Overture."
>
>To which I said, A: "harmonic and melodic properties" of 15-et (or any
>other equal division or tuning) depend on modality, and B: Mizarian
>Porcupine is in Porupine temperament, not 15-et.

Yeah, I have no idea how you got any of that from what
Herman said.

-Carl

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "lobawad" <lobawad@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@> wrote:
> >
> > lobawad wrote:
> >
> > >Hopefully this example will help demonstrate how radically >different

> I didn't say that the RTP was only about extreme puns, in fact I said something quite contrary- Gene's works are full of micro puns. What the RTP is about is surely a great variety of fundamentally different internal structures, with their own logic.

The thing about micro puns is that you don't need a big comma to get the dynamic effect--the effect of movement beyond what strict JI would allow, which imparts an extra impetus to the music. The 81/80 pun effect, IMHO, is what makes the Meantone[7] diatonic scale so much more dynamic than the Ptolemy "5-limit just diatonic" scale. It's far more than just an extra chord. And even a tiny interval like 2401/2400 can impart a dynamic effect, though to be sure here one can simply accept the comma drift if the pileup of large numerators and denominators is not a concern.

It's funny, Gene, I know (and agree) with what you mean by 'dynamic' in the
case of meantone[7] vs. diatonic 5-limit JI, but I'm not sure it's easy to
break down and explain.

Not meaning to start a flame war, but just thinking out loud: I find more
and more I have less interest in JI for most purposes, although I think it's
really unsurpassed for ambient/meditative things, and in certain melodic
applications (I'm thinking here specifically of things like ancient
tatrachords). That said, I have enormous fondness and respect for the work
of Kraig Grady, Toby Twining, Kyle Gann, Prent Rogers, etc. (interesting how
Kraig seems to have moved to temperament with things like meta-meantone,
etc. anyway...).

Another realization is that synthesizer sounds that are 'dynamic' in nature
often are so for the reason that the oscillators (assuming more than one)
beat with slight detuning. Not always, but usually, I find this beating more
pleasant that absolutely straight 'static' tone, but I guess it's contextual
after all. In any event, I would probably go for non-detuned oscillators
when using JI and slightly detuned oscillators when using a temperament.

Speaking of ambient---since there is a lot of focus around here lately on
really anti-JI edos like 11 and 13, I often wonder what an ambient 11-edo or
13-edo piece would be like. I'm itching to experiment in this area. I just
heard a John Luther Adams piece ("Dark Waves" for orchestral/electronics) on
the radio (CSO broadcast:
https://www.cso.org/ListenAndWatch/Details.aspx?id=15513) on Sunday that I
was quite fond of: it was a giant ambient texture, painting the enormous
Alaskan white landscape in sound, and it really had ZERO counterpoint in any
traditional sense---it was a drifting cloud of texture. I loved it, but
maybe some around here who seemingly measure things by Bachian counterpoint
might have missed the point.... :)

AKJ

On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 12:08 PM, genewardsmith
<genewardsmith@...>wrote:

>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "lobawad" <lobawad@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@> wrote:
> > >
> > > lobawad wrote:
> > >
> > > >Hopefully this example will help demonstrate how radically >different
>
> > I didn't say that the RTP was only about extreme puns, in fact I said
> something quite contrary- Gene's works are full of micro puns. What the RTP
> is about is surely a great variety of fundamentally different internal
> structures, with their own logic.
>
> The thing about micro puns is that you don't need a big comma to get the
> dynamic effect--the effect of movement beyond what strict JI would allow,
> which imparts an extra impetus to the music. The 81/80 pun effect, IMHO, is
> what makes the Meantone[7] diatonic scale so much more dynamic than the
> Ptolemy "5-limit just diatonic" scale. It's far more than just an extra
> chord. And even a tiny interval like 2401/2400 can impart a dynamic effect,
> though to be sure here one can simply accept the comma drift if the pileup
> of large numerators and denominators is not a concern.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

--
Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.akjmusic.com
http://www.untwelve.org

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 3/8/2011 5:44 AM, lobawad wrote:
> Mizarian Porcupine is an example of a piece that is strongly "in" a
> regular temperament. You can hear the chord progessions "turning back
> in upon" themselves, as a ii-V-I does in meantone for example. It is
> a great example, and an "underground classic" as a piece of music.
>
> Gene's pieces, using microtemperaments, are too subtle and advanced
> in this way to demonstrate what's going on, except to the hardcore
> listener. That leaves, to my knowledge, only Mizarian Porcupine and a
> couple of pieces by Petr Parizek (Run the Whistle Down being one) as
> easily audible examples of what the "regular temperament paradigm" is
> about.
>
> Herman, you harm the "regular temperament paradigm" by talking about
> the "harmonic and melodic properties of 15-et" here. Harmonic and
> melodic properties of any tuning are mostly dependent on modality for
> one thing, and for another thing, 15 equal divisions of the octave is
> really pretty much only "coincidentally" related to Porcupine
> temperament.
>
> The sixth root of 7:4, the specific mapping of primes in the
> temperament, and the commas tempered out are the key elements of
> Porcupine. It is nice that 15 equal divisions of the octave
> approximates these elements very well, but "15-et" and "Porcupine" do
> NOT equate.
>
> Obviously you know this, you created the temperament, but as I keep
> saying (for years now), if you want non-acolytes to dig what you're
> doing, you have to speak in a way that does not cloud fundamental
> concepts.

I did create the chord progression that led to the discovery of porcupine temperament, but in fact Mizarian Porcupine Overture as a whole is written in 15-ET. I do say 15-ET and not 15-EDO, because I was using it as what these days we'd call a rank 1 temperament. The chords and chord progressions possible in 15-ET, as well as the sizes of the melodic intervals (e.g., splitting the minor third into two equal parts) are similar to those in Carlos Alpha, but only up to a point (e.g., 15-ET allows for inversions of triads, while Alpha doesn't).

15-ET as I was using it can be represented as <15, 24, 35, 42, 52]; this is the so-called "patent val" of 15-ET, or "nearest prime mapping" as a slightly more friendly term.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@...> wrote:

>
> The thing about micro puns is that you don't need a big comma to get the dynamic effect--the effect of movement beyond what strict JI would allow, which imparts an extra impetus to the music. The 81/80 pun effect, IMHO, is what makes the Meantone[7] diatonic scale so much more dynamic than the Ptolemy "5-limit just diatonic" scale. It's far more than just an extra chord. And even a tiny interval like 2401/2400 can impart a dynamic effect, though to be sure here one can simply accept the comma drift if the pileup of large numerators and denominators is not a concern.
>

I feel sorry for people who think tuning is about "math". The math simply describes components; it is a tool. The goals are things like "dynamic effect", as you say.

The septimal tempering found in the "marvel" temperament modality of 41-edo is something that does for me, for reasons I doubt I could explain, what you describe here. Maybe this "septimin" or something, I can't keep up the names. The comma in question is 225:224 at any rate.