A new term for what we do?

So, what new term could we use to describe the usage of non-twelve equal
idiom?

But I answered my own question: Non-Twelve. Winking at AKJ for his
brilliant usage of UnTwelve.

Oz.

--

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

Daniel Forró wrote:
> I'm not quite satisfied with all of those terms.
>
> "Microtonality/macrotonality" evokes some "tonality", but music can
> be also atonal.
>
> And "xenharmonic" means "stranger, guest, host, foreign,
> external...", that reminds me something like "extraterrestrial", and
> that "harmonic" talks about "harmony", chords, but not all music is
> based on chords and harmony.
>
> Daniel Forro
>
>
> On 28 Feb 2011, at 11:48 PM, gdsecor wrote:
>
>> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Ozan Yarman<ozanyarman@...>
>> wrote:
>>> Wonderful, thanks!
>>>
>>> Would you say 11-EDO is a "macro-tonal" tuning? I have a good mind to
>>> revive the "macrotonality" concept in the case of<12 tuning schemes.
>>>
>>> Oz.
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> ✩ ✩ ✩
>>> www.ozanyarman.com
>> "Macrotonal" is a term I thought of using (many years ago), since
>> 11-EDO (and other smaller octave divisions) are not really
>> microtonal, in the strict sense of the word, and others on the
>> tuning lists have also brought this up.
>>
>> When Ivor Darreg considered this issue, he decided that, rather
>> than having two mutually exclusive terms, what he really needed was
>> a single term that would include all tunings significantly
>> different from 12-equal, both microtonal and macrotonal. For this
>> he coined the term "xenharmonic". It was so well accepted by
>> others working with alternative tunings at the time that it was
>> incorporated into the names of two different publications, John
>> Chalmers's _Xenharmonikon_ and Darreg's own _Xenharmonic Bulletin_.
>>
>> --George
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

"Comman practice".

Yeah, lousy, I know.

On 2/28/11, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...> wrote:
> So, what new term could we use to describe the usage of non-twelve equal
> idiom?
>
> But I answered my own question: Non-Twelve. Winking at AKJ for his
> brilliant usage of UnTwelve.
>
> Oz.
>
> --
>
> ✩ ✩ ✩
> www.ozanyarman.com
>
>
> Daniel Forró wrote:
>> I'm not quite satisfied with all of those terms.
>>
>> "Microtonality/macrotonality" evokes some "tonality", but music can
>> be also atonal.
>>
>> And "xenharmonic" means "stranger, guest, host, foreign,
>> external...", that reminds me something like "extraterrestrial", and
>> that "harmonic" talks about "harmony", chords, but not all music is
>> based on chords and harmony.
>>
>> Daniel Forro
>>
>>
>> On 28 Feb 2011, at 11:48 PM, gdsecor wrote:
>>
>>> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Ozan Yarman<ozanyarman@...>
>>> wrote:
>>>> Wonderful, thanks!
>>>>
>>>> Would you say 11-EDO is a "macro-tonal" tuning? I have a good mind to
>>>> revive the "macrotonality" concept in the case of<12 tuning schemes.
>>>>
>>>> Oz.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> ✩ ✩ ✩
>>>> www.ozanyarman.com
>>> "Macrotonal" is a term I thought of using (many years ago), since
>>> 11-EDO (and other smaller octave divisions) are not really
>>> microtonal, in the strict sense of the word, and others on the
>>> tuning lists have also brought this up.
>>>
>>> When Ivor Darreg considered this issue, he decided that, rather
>>> than having two mutually exclusive terms, what he really needed was
>>> a single term that would include all tunings significantly
>>> different from 12-equal, both microtonal and macrotonal. For this
>>> he coined the term "xenharmonic". It was so well accepted by
>>> others working with alternative tunings at the time that it was
>>> incorporated into the names of two different publications, John
>>> Chalmers's _Xenharmonikon_ and Darreg's own _Xenharmonic Bulletin_.
>>>
>>> --George
>>
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

See http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/what+is+microtonal+music#Terms for this discussion.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...> wrote:
>
> So, what new term could we use to describe the usage of non-twelve
> equal idiom?
>
> But I answered my own question: Non-Twelve. Winking at AKJ for his
> brilliant usage of UnTwelve.
>
> Oz.
>
> --
>
> ✩ ✩ ✩
> www.ozanyarman.com
>
>
> Daniel Forró wrote:
> > I'm not quite satisfied with all of those terms.
> >
> > "Microtonality/macrotonality" evokes some "tonality", but music
> > can be also atonal.
> >
> > And "xenharmonic" means "stranger, guest, host, foreign,
> > external...", that reminds me something like "extraterrestrial",
> > and that "harmonic" talks about "harmony", chords, but not all
> > music is based on chords and harmony.
> >
> > Daniel Forro
> >

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, straub@... wrote:

> See http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/what+is+microtonal+music#Terms for this discussion.

That discussion, which seems to be by Mclaren, says that 12et and something which is off from it by over 13 cents "will sound for all practical purposes identical". I repeat my question of how I am supposed to deal with the erroneous rubbish in the Mclaren articles. Simply writing something on the comments page doesn't seem like much of a solution.

On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 4:26 AM, genewardsmith
<genewardsmith@...> wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, straub@... wrote:
>
> > See http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/what+is+microtonal+music#Terms for this discussion.
>
> That discussion, which seems to be by Mclaren, says that 12et and something which is off from it by over 13 cents "will sound for all practical purposes identical". I repeat my question of how I am supposed to deal with the erroneous rubbish in the Mclaren articles. Simply writing something on the comments page doesn't seem like much of a solution.

I will again say that the general gist of the "using science to deepen
our ability to create art" approach is replicating throughout almost
all forms of art. I'm seeing crazy stuff going on with modern
drumming, singers are delving really far into vocal physiology to
dispel old myths and come up with new techniques, and sooner or later
we're going to have 4-dimensional art too (I hope! :)). Is this
basically the characteristic art movement of the 21st century that
we're sitting in now? If so, what's the name for it?

Will it be followed up by some kind of ultra-primitive return to
basics, I wonder, as the world finally catches onto different tuning
systems and then the new hip thing is to go back to 12 around 2200 AD?
Maybe.

-Mike

I didn't like some statements in that article, too.

As for terms - I think Vyshnegradski's terms - "ultrachromatic" for microtonality, "infrachromatic" for macrotonality - are good enough and can be used.

Daniel Forro

On 1 Mar 2011, at 6:26 PM, genewardsmith wrote:

>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, straub@... wrote:
>
>> See http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/what+is+microtonal>> +music#Terms for this discussion.
>
> That discussion, which seems to be by Mclaren, says that 12et and > something which is off from it by over 13 cents "will sound for all > practical purposes identical". I repeat my question of how I am > supposed to deal with the erroneous rubbish in the Mclaren > articles. Simply writing something on the comments page doesn't > seem like much of a solution.
>

I'm kind of pragmatic anymore....I don't think inventing new terms, esp.
when there have been quite a few pushed around already, is going to do
anything to help the people who already understand and talk about this, and
it certainly is adding confusion to the minds of people who don't already
know what we're talking about.

Even though the organization I co-founded and now run is 'UnTwelve', which
has a nice ring to it, it's ultimately a bit obfuscatory, and the fine print
always uses the term 'microtonality' 90% of the time, because that the word
most likely to mean something to the general guy-on-the-street, along with
'tuning' or 'musical tuning'.

AKJ

On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 6:47 AM, Daniel Forró <dan.for@...> wrote:

> I didn't like some statements in that article, too.
>
> As for terms - I think Vyshnegradski's terms - "ultrachromatic" for
> microtonality, "infrachromatic" for macrotonality - are good enough
> and can be used.
>
> Daniel Forro
>
>
> On 1 Mar 2011, at 6:26 PM, genewardsmith wrote:
>
> >
> > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, straub@... wrote:
> >
> >> See http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/what+is+microtonal
> >> +music#Terms for this discussion.
> >
> > That discussion, which seems to be by Mclaren, says that 12et and
> > something which is off from it by over 13 cents "will sound for all
> > practical purposes identical". I repeat my question of how I am
> > supposed to deal with the erroneous rubbish in the Mclaren
> > articles. Simply writing something on the comments page doesn't
> > seem like much of a solution.
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

--
Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.akjmusic.com
http://www.untwelve.org

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

   I would perhaps over-summarize as "Unlimited Tuning"...referencing the way past Western systems have often tried to mimic 5-limit and what we do goes far beyond that.  "Deep Tuning" wouldn't be bad either.

    My only problem with terms like "Untwelve" is it seems to say "not like 12TET" rather than "more extensive than 12TET.  Microtonal seems to say "smaller than tonal" which can be easily interpreted as "less than tonal" and kind of feeds to the false stigma that microtonal music is less tonal than "normal" tonal music.  Not to mention it seems to reference only music with tones smaller than the semitone and ignores "macrotones", which are just as much a part of our art.
  
   The point, in my mind, is not to say
we're different than the people who focus on 12TET but, rather, we're looking at what they do, and beyond, on a deeper level.

Daniel>"As for terms - I think Vyshnegradski's terms - "ultrachromatic" for microtonality, "infrachromatic" for macrotonality - are good enough and can be used."

+10 for "ultra-chromatic", which also seems to hint at microtonality as a deeper art, rather than one that's less perfect than or ignorant of 12TET.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I think you need to look for another term.

Here's a 13-limit JI tuning I tried when I was first exploring alternative tunings:

1/1 13/12 9/8 7/6 5/4 4/3 11/8 3/2 13/8 5/3 7/4 11/6 2/1

It's definitely xenharmonic; however, it's not non-twelve.

It's not necessarily 'twelve' we're trying to escape from here, but rather 'twelve-equal'.

--George

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...> wrote:
>
> So, what new term could we use to describe the usage of non-twelve equal
> idiom?
>
> But I answered my own question: Non-Twelve. Winking at AKJ for his
> brilliant usage of UnTwelve.
>
> Oz.
>
> --
>
> ✩ ✩ ✩
> www.ozanyarman.com
>
>
> Daniel Forró wrote:
> > I'm not quite satisfied with all of those terms.
> >
> > "Microtonality/macrotonality" evokes some "tonality", but music can
> > be also atonal.
> >
> > And "xenharmonic" means "stranger, guest, host, foreign,
> > external...", that reminds me something like "extraterrestrial", and
> > that "harmonic" talks about "harmony", chords, but not all music is
> > based on chords and harmony.
> >
> > Daniel Forro
> >
> >
> > On 28 Feb 2011, at 11:48 PM, gdsecor wrote:
> >
> >> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Ozan Yarman<ozanyarman@>
> >> wrote:
> >>> Wonderful, thanks!
> >>>
> >>> Would you say 11-EDO is a "macro-tonal" tuning? I have a good mind to
> >>> revive the "macrotonality" concept in the case of<12 tuning schemes.
> >>>
> >>> Oz.
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>>
> >>> ✩ ✩ ✩
> >>> www.ozanyarman.com
> >> "Macrotonal" is a term I thought of using (many years ago), since
> >> 11-EDO (and other smaller octave divisions) are not really
> >> microtonal, in the strict sense of the word, and others on the
> >> tuning lists have also brought this up.
> >>
> >> When Ivor Darreg considered this issue, he decided that, rather
> >> than having two mutually exclusive terms, what he really needed was
> >> a single term that would include all tunings significantly
> >> different from 12-equal, both microtonal and macrotonal. For this
> >> he coined the term "xenharmonic". It was so well accepted by
> >> others working with alternative tunings at the time that it was
> >> incorporated into the names of two different publications, John
> >> Chalmers's _Xenharmonikon_ and Darreg's own _Xenharmonic Bulletin_.
> >>
> >> --George
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

I use "xentonal" to describe my own work, because my approach is almost always centered on unusual analogues to diatonic tonality. But generally speaking "microtonal" gets the point across better than anything else.

I hate the use of "alternative tunings" though, because to a guitarist that term is ubiquitously used to refer to different tunings of the open strings outside of the standard EADGBE--tunings like DADGAD, DGDGBD, DGCFAD, etc. It has no "non-12-TET" connotations what so ever, and using it to refer to microtonality confuses the heck out of people. I tend to refer to "alternative intonations" which isn't great but it's marginally less confusing to guitar players than "alternative tunings".

-Igs

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Krister Johnson <aaron@...> wrote:
>
> I'm kind of pragmatic anymore....I don't think inventing new terms, esp.
> when there have been quite a few pushed around already, is going to do
> anything to help the people who already understand and talk about this, and
> it certainly is adding confusion to the minds of people who don't already
> know what we're talking about.
>
> Even though the organization I co-founded and now run is 'UnTwelve', which
> has a nice ring to it, it's ultimately a bit obfuscatory, and the fine print
> always uses the term 'microtonality' 90% of the time, because that the word
> most likely to mean something to the general guy-on-the-street, along with
> 'tuning' or 'musical tuning'.
>
> AKJ
>
> On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 6:47 AM, Daniel Forró <dan.for@...> wrote:
>
> > I didn't like some statements in that article, too.
> >
> > As for terms - I think Vyshnegradski's terms - "ultrachromatic" for
> > microtonality, "infrachromatic" for macrotonality - are good enough
> > and can be used.
> >
> > Daniel Forro
> >
> >
> > On 1 Mar 2011, at 6:26 PM, genewardsmith wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, straub@ wrote:
> > >
> > >> See http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/what+is+microtonal
> > >> +music#Terms for this discussion.
> > >
> > > That discussion, which seems to be by Mclaren, says that 12et and
> > > something which is off from it by over 13 cents "will sound for all
> > > practical purposes identical". I repeat my question of how I am
> > > supposed to deal with the erroneous rubbish in the Mclaren
> > > articles. Simply writing something on the comments page doesn't
> > > seem like much of a solution.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Aaron Krister Johnson
> http://www.akjmusic.com
> http://www.untwelve.org
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "gdsecor" <gdsecor@...> wrote:
>
> I think you need to look for another term.
>
> Here's a 13-limit JI tuning I tried when I was first exploring alternative tunings:
>
> 1/1 13/12 9/8 7/6 5/4 4/3 11/8 3/2 13/8 5/3 7/4 11/6 2/1

Scala doesn't list it. Do you have a name for it, and an approximate date?

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@...> wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "gdsecor" <gdsecor@> wrote:
> >
> > I think you need to look for another term.
> >
> > Here's a 13-limit JI tuning I tried when I was first exploring alternative tunings:
> >
> > 1/1 13/12 9/8 7/6 5/4 4/3 11/8 3/2 13/8 5/3 7/4 11/6 2/1
>
> Scala doesn't list it.

I find that very difficult to believe. It's simply the union of two heptatonic scales consisting of tones corresponding to consecutive harmonics (7 thru 13) in the keys (taking tonic = 8) of C (1/1) and F (4/3). I think I've seen somebody else come up with this on one these lists, which didn't surprise me, because I thought it was rather obvious.

> Do you have a name for it, and an approximate date?

How about "13-limit harmonic bicycle", 1963. 8>}

I've called scales having constant structure and consisting of harmonics of a single fundamental "harmonic cycles"; e.g., this is a decatonic harmonic cycle (17 prime limit):

1/1 17/16 9/8 5/4 21/16 11/8 3/2 13/8 7/4 15/8 2/1

BTW, I wrote a paper about my first 6 months of investigation into microtonality and alternative tunings in the spring of 1964, which I just looked at a few minutes ago to see if I had yet thought of the idea of using 11- or 13-EDO for atonal music. Sure enough, there it was in a single sentence in my concluding remarks. I didn't try it for another 6 years, until I had access to a StroboConn tuner; before that, I had no easy way to tune it.

--George

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "gdsecor" <gdsecor@...> wrote:

> How about "13-limit harmonic bicycle", 1963. 8>}

I've added it to the Gallery of 12-note JI scales on the Wikipedia.

! bicycle.scl
!
13-limit harmonic bicycle, George Secor, 1963
12
!
13/12
9/8
7/6
5/4
4/3
11/8
3/2
13/8
5/3
7/4
11/6
2/1

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@...> wrote:

> I've added it to the Gallery of 12-note JI scales on the Wikipedia.

Sorry, the Xenwiki. Need that first cup of coffee!

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "gdsecor" <gdsecor@...> wrote:

> > Scala doesn't list it.
>
> I find that very difficult to believe.

Apparently I made some sort of mistake running Scala. It's a transposition of Wilson's Helix Song, see David Rosenthal, Helix Song, XH 7&8, 1979. Also Andrew Heathwaite's Rodan. But you seem to have priority.

I meant twelve as in twelve-equal or its siblings, George. But of
course, it could stand some improvement.

Oz.

--

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

gdsecor wrote:
> I think you need to look for another term.
>
> Here's a 13-limit JI tuning I tried when I was first exploring alternative tunings:
>
> 1/1 13/12 9/8 7/6 5/4 4/3 11/8 3/2 13/8 5/3 7/4 11/6 2/1
>
> It's definitely xenharmonic; however, it's not non-twelve.
>
> It's not necessarily 'twelve' we're trying to escape from here, but rather 'twelve-equal'.
>
> --George
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Ozan Yarman<ozanyarman@...> wrote:
>> So, what new term could we use to describe the usage of non-twelve equal
>> idiom?
>>
>> But I answered my own question: Non-Twelve. Winking at AKJ for his
>> brilliant usage of UnTwelve.
>>
>> Oz.
>>
>> --
>>
>> ✩ ✩ ✩
>> www.ozanyarman.com
>>
>>
>> Daniel Forró wrote:
>>> I'm not quite satisfied with all of those terms.
>>>
>>> "Microtonality/macrotonality" evokes some "tonality", but music can
>>> be also atonal.
>>>
>>> And "xenharmonic" means "stranger, guest, host, foreign,
>>> external...", that reminds me something like "extraterrestrial", and
>>> that "harmonic" talks about "harmony", chords, but not all music is
>>> based on chords and harmony.
>>>
>>> Daniel Forro
>>>
>>>
>>> On 28 Feb 2011, at 11:48 PM, gdsecor wrote:
>>>
>>>> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Ozan Yarman<ozanyarman@>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Wonderful, thanks!
>>>>>
>>>>> Would you say 11-EDO is a "macro-tonal" tuning? I have a good mind to
>>>>> revive the "macrotonality" concept in the case of<12 tuning schemes.
>>>>>
>>>>> Oz.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> ✩ ✩ ✩
>>>>> www.ozanyarman.com
>>>> "Macrotonal" is a term I thought of using (many years ago), since
>>>> 11-EDO (and other smaller octave divisions) are not really
>>>> microtonal, in the strict sense of the word, and others on the
>>>> tuning lists have also brought this up.
>>>>
>>>> When Ivor Darreg considered this issue, he decided that, rather
>>>> than having two mutually exclusive terms, what he really needed was
>>>> a single term that would include all tunings significantly
>>>> different from 12-equal, both microtonal and macrotonal. For this
>>>> he coined the term "xenharmonic". It was so well accepted by
>>>> others working with alternative tunings at the time that it was
>>>> incorporated into the names of two different publications, John
>>>> Chalmers's _Xenharmonikon_ and Darreg's own _Xenharmonic Bulletin_.
>>>>
>>>> --George
>>>
>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]