Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup makemicromusic Only in Disneyland

Sweet sounding music, nice 17-tone chromatic touch at the end.

Oz.

christopherv wrote:
> Only in Disneyland is a 17 note per octave guitar solo. This was recorded direct in a Alesis multimix 8 into Sonar X1 with Lexicon reverb and Sonitus multiband EQ / compression.
>
> download
> http://micro.soonlabel.com/17-ET/daily20110205-17et-disneyland.mp3
>
> online play
> http://chrisvaisvil.com/?p=466
>
>
> Have a Good Day.
>
> Chris
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Herman Miller <hmiller@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

Thanks for the listen and comment Herman.

I agree with you - Even though I'm leaning hard on 4ths and 5ths which are
pretty pure I do have a lot of chords with sharp major 3rds everywhere.

I'm working my way towards getting some more xenharmonic sounding harmonies
and melodies - I've only found a few combinations so far that I like. I
assume this will change as I become more used to the tuning system.

Chris

On Sun, Feb 6, 2011 at 5:04 PM, Herman Miller <hmiller@...> wrote:

>
>
> On 2/5/2011 10:38 PM, christopherv wrote:
> > Only in Disneyland is a 17 note per octave guitar solo. This was recorded
> direct in a Alesis multimix 8 into Sonar X1 with Lexicon reverb and Sonitus
> multiband EQ / compression.
> >
> > download
> > http://micro.soonlabel.com/17-ET/daily20110205-17et-disneyland.mp3
> >
> > online play
> > http://chrisvaisvil.com/?p=466
>
> It's always interesting how "normal" 17-ET can sound, even though you
> can tell it's nothing like 12-ET. Like a more vivid form of the regular
> diatonic scale, with extra shades of tone.
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

Thanks for the listen and comment. I'm really enjoying my guitar :-)

On Sun, Feb 6, 2011 at 6:27 AM, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>wrote:

>
>
> Sweet sounding music, nice 17-tone chromatic touch at the end.
>
> Oz.
>
> --
>
> ✩ ✩ ✩
> www.ozanyarman.com
>
>
> christopherv wrote:
> > Only in Disneyland is a 17 note per octave guitar solo. This was recorded
> direct in a Alesis multimix 8 into Sonar X1 with Lexicon reverb and Sonitus
> multiband EQ / compression.
> >
> > download
> > http://micro.soonlabel.com/17-ET/daily20110205-17et-disneyland.mp3
> >
> > online play
> > http://chrisvaisvil.com/?p=466
> >
> >
> > Have a Good Day.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

Even more so than your own "no bad note" tunings?

Thanks for the listen and comment.

Of course one can do more in 17edo
http://chrisvaisvil.com/?p=422

Chris

On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 10:51 AM, Michael <djtrancendance@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
>
> > download
> > http://micro.soonlabel.com/17-ET/daily20110205-17et-disneyland.mp3
> >
> > online play
> > http://chrisvaisvil.com/?p=466
>
> Stunningly relaxing and very elegant. This and Sethares "Seventeen Dragon
> Dreams" seem to point to 17TET as an ideal starter tuning for those
> interested
> in microtonality.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

Chris>"Even more so than your own "no bad note" tunings?"

Can't say more or less it's just different, more fuzzy/distorted but also
more "soft" in emotional feel...a fair "comparison" would involve you making a
similar song in Dimension but, at "worst", it's close enough to make the cut as
"normal sounding" and I'd still certainly recommend it to first time microtonal
listeners. :-)
The important thing is that it seems (at least in your example) one can
simply jump into 17TET and make something that's undoubtedly musical (it seems
to say the tuning can sound as good as an optimized tuning even with a musician
who hasn't, say, spend his entire life studying it). Literally I'd feel
confident playing this to just about any sort of listener without them spitting
out the usual "oh,...that avant-garde BS" type statement.

>"http://chrisvaisvil.com/?p=422"
Indeed meanwhile...that sounds very intelligent but, on the other hand,
definitely off the deep end so far as what I'd expect the average listener to
take seriously...there the "fuzzy-ness" of 17TET seems to leave the music in a
state of "soft confusion" emotionally.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

Chris>"So, you are assuming I have worked in 17 edo only as long as I have had
this re-fretted guitar?"

Not at all....I just meant to say that (I'm guessing) for you 17EDO is "just
another tuning" and not one you've focused on over all else...which seems to
hint the tuning likely isn't that hard to learn to play well (for any
tuning...I'd say that's definitely a good thing).

________________________________
From: Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>
To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, February 7, 2011 10:34:50 AM
Subject: Re: [MMM] Only in Disneyland

So, you are assuming I have worked in 17 edo only as long as I have
had this re-fretted guitar?

Chris

On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 11:25 AM, Michael <djtrancendance@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>

> The important thing is that it seems (at least in your example) one can
> simply jump into 17TET and make something that's undoubtedly musical (it seems
> to say the tuning can sound as good as an optimized tuning even with a
musician
> who hasn't, say, spend his entire life studying it)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

If I'm following you this is the answer you are looking for:

I find 17 notes enough to be different and still a manageable number. My
Un12 entry Godzareh Depression was in a 17 note semimarvelous dwarf by
Gene.
With keyboard playing 22 seems to be my limit on a "normal" keyboard. I've
not tried too many tunings below 12 notes but I'm finding keyboard mapping
to be a great aid in doing this.

My Axis 49 and midi guitar makes higher number of notes easier but right now
I've not used either much since I received the re-fretted guitar.

Chris

On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 12:32 PM, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:

>
>
> Chris>"So, you are assuming I have worked in 17 edo only as long as I have
> had
> this re-fretted guitar?"
>
> Not at all....I just meant to say that (I'm guessing) for you 17EDO is
> "just
> another tuning" and not one you've focused on over all else...which seems
> to
> hint the tuning likely isn't that hard to learn to play well (for any
> tuning...I'd say that's definitely a good thing).
>
> ________________________________
> From: Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>
> To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Mon, February 7, 2011 10:34:50 AM
> Subject: Re: [MMM] Only in Disneyland
>
>
> So, you are assuming I have worked in 17 edo only as long as I have
> had this re-fretted guitar?
>
> Chris
>
> On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 11:25 AM, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:
> >
> >
>
> > The important thing is that it seems (at least in your example) one can
> > simply jump into 17TET and make something that's undoubtedly musical (it
> seems
> > to say the tuning can sound as good as an optimized tuning even with a
> musician
> > who hasn't, say, spend his entire life studying it)
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

Chris>"I find 17 notes enough to be different and still a manageable number. "

17 is indeed IMVHO a very manageable number, even for an instrument like a
guitar.

>"With keyboard playing 22 seems to be my limit on a "normal" keyboard."

I recall Igs said something similar about any acoustic instrument over 22
notes in size feeling awkward. Also, to me, 17TET has a few very amusing
features including two fairly near just 11/9 and 9/7 thirds, a pretty much
dead-on 13/9 fourth, an 11/7 fifth (or is that a very low sixth?), a strong
16/9, and 11/6-ish seventh...all very strong interval none of which sound
"12TET" at all to me. Yes, vs. 19TET, you lose the strong minor 3rd (note: the
17TET neutral third can do a pretty good substitution for it)...but so what?
I'd still argue 17TET sounds a fair deal more unique than 19TET in
practice....though 19TET can also be quite unique.

>"My Axis 49 and midi guitar makes higher number of notes easier but right now
>I've not used either much since I received the re-fretted guitar."

Refretting an old guitar of mine to 17TET does sound rather tempting about
now... :-D

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

Not to say it's the only good alternative...but I'm really starting to like
it. Plus it's probably more realistic to push and put in acoustic instruments
than, say, my 12 tone Dimension scale system.
Like 19TET, 17TET has lots of odd intervals but, unlike it, it has few enough
of them you can't easily just resort to making something that sounds like
12TET. It also has a host of higher limit intervals, but many with a very soft
and balanced feel to them that very much counters the shaky, tense, slightly
chaotic feel so many tunings seem to have. Plus with 17 notes, it's
significantly more realistic to easily map to a guitar than something like 31TET
or 53TET.

I also discovered the following mode under 17TET I really like:
0,3,6,7,10,14,15,(octave at 17)...is there a formal name for it?

And...anyone else for trying to popularize 17TET as an "intro to
microtonality" tuning?

What would really rock, IMVHO, is if we could get a campaign going, perhaps
through Untwelve and a few people who already design guitars, to get 17TET
guitars and bass guitars made and distributed to, say, Guitar Center...and
eventually get major companies like Fender to make them.
For the record, even my girlfriend, who says most of what she hears on this
list is chaotic (and, yes, even some of my older self-made tunings as well),
thinks the 17TET songs I've showed her so far sound beautiful.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

________________________________
Not to say it's the only good alternative...but I'm really starting to
like

it. Plus it's probably more realistic to push and put in acoustic instruments
than, say, my 12 tone Dimension scale system.
Like 19TET, 17TET has lots of odd intervals but, unlike it, it has few enough
of them you can't easily just resort to making something that sounds like
12TET. It also has a host of higher limit intervals, but many with a very soft

and balanced feel to them that very much counters the shaky, tense, slightly
chaotic feel so many tunings seem to have. Plus with 17 notes, it's
significantly more realistic to easily map to a guitar than something like 31TET

or 53TET.

I also discovered the following mode under 17TET I really like:
0,3,6,7,10,14,15,(octave at 17)...is there a formal name for it?

Far as sound examples of 17TET:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mck2PcsZ44
http://micro.soonlabel.com/17-ET/daily20110205-17et-disneyland.mp3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tWnIjENhf4&playnext=1&list=PLA46D22AC799CFCD7
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25sC3_uheyA (just added by Chris V.) :-D
...and each one sounds, to my g/f and I at least, very relaxed, balanced, and
easy to understand.
...anyone got more?

And...anyone else for trying to popularize 17TET as an "intro to
microtonality" tuning?

________________________________
From: Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@gmail.com>
To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, February 7, 2011 2:10:57 PM
Subject: Re: [MMM] 17TET as good "intro to microtonality" tuning

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25sC3_uheyA

this of course.

On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 3:07 PM, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:
>

> ...anyone got more?
>
> And...anyone else for trying to popularize 17TET as an "intro to
> microtonality" tuning?
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 3:07 PM, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:
>
> Like 19TET, 17TET has lots of odd intervals but, unlike it, it has few enough
> of them you can't easily just resort to making something that sounds like
> 12TET. It also has a host of higher limit intervals, but many with a very soft
> and balanced feel to them that very much counters the shaky, tense, slightly
> chaotic feel so many tunings seem to have.

What do you think about 22TET? Compared to 17-equal, it gives up 13
but gains 5, and has a more accurate 11.

> I also discovered the following mode under 17TET I really like:
> 0,3,6,7,10,14,15,(octave at 17)...is there a formal name for it?

I'm not sure... it's not an MOS.

> And...anyone else for trying to popularize 17TET as an "intro to
> microtonality" tuning?

It's a good thought. I'm really not sure if it's The One, but it's a
good one. Sometimes I think that The One might be 24-TET,
unfortunately. Although 24's really not that bad if you treat it as a
2.3.5.11 subgroup temperament, or maybe 2.3.5.11.13.17.19.

> What would really rock, IMVHO, is if we could get a campaign going, perhaps
> through Untwelve and a few people who already design guitars, to get 17TET
> guitars and bass guitars made and distributed to, say, Guitar Center...and
> eventually get major companies like Fender to make them.
> For the record, even my girlfriend, who says most of what she hears on this
> list is chaotic (and, yes, even some of my older self-made tunings as well),
> thinks the 17TET songs I've showed her so far sound beautiful.

It's a good one for starters. I think that The One Alternative Tuning
that catches on first will probably be either 15, 17, 19, or 22.
Unless people go the other direction and start exploring something
like 7, or 14. Ron Sword is really trying to popularize 16 so maybe
that'll be successful too, if people somehow manage to bite the bullet
and give up on 3/2.

I think there's some kind of microtonal equivalent of the concept of
the "uncanny valley" in robotics. If a tuning sounds like what people
are used to and extends it in an interesting way, like 19 or 31, it
might catch on. And if a tuning is completely and utterly different
from 12, something like 7 maybe, I could see it catching on just
because it's so novel and interesting. But if a tuning sounds enough
like 12, but certain things "just don't work" like you'd expect, the
tuning might be really frustrating for beginners. 22 fits into the
latter category, I think.

-Mike

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

For me 22TET has too much close to the major/minor triads and tetrads of
12TET that it can easily be used in a way similar to 12TET...and that, I'm
afraid, may well cause musicians to use it like 12TET and for it to lose its
"freshness" appeal. Plus, to my ears, 22TET just doesn't sound as relaxed as
17TET...at least to far as the music I've heard written in it (do you have any
links of 22TET music you think is comparable in being easy-to-listen-to as the
17TET pieces I posted). Same goes for 17TET vs. 16TET and especially 7TET and
14TET...don't get me wrong, I love Knowsur's 7TET/14TET music: but it's still
much tenser than anything I'd expect the average listener or musician to take
seriously.

MikeB>"Ron Sword is really trying to popularize 16 so maybe that'll be
successful too, if people somehow manage to bite the bullet and give up on 3/2."

Far as giving up the 3/2...my ears point to 22/15 as the obvious alternative
(just about the most relaxed sounding thing in that tonal area)...and thus
Mohajira and such scales seem to be a strong alternative. Then again, this is
up against that I've heard more easily listenable music in 17TET than
Mohajira...but maybe it's just that few too people have composed in Mohajira
and/or released it somewhere I have been able to find it?

>"I think there's some kind of microtonal equivalent of the concept of the
>"uncanny valley" in robotics. If a tuning
>
A) sounds like what people are used to and extends it in an interesting way,
like 19 or 31, it might catch on. And if a tuning

B) is completely and utterly different from 12, something like 7 maybe, I could
see it catching on just because it's so novel and interesting.

C) But if a tuning sounds enough like 12, but certain things "just don't work"
like you'd expect, the tuning might be really frustrating for beginners. 22 fits
into the latter category, I think.

I like 17TET because it seems to fall into both A and B because even though
it sounds different, the overall feel of tension/release is often similar so it
feels both "known but unknown". 22TET, as you seem to imply, seems to invite
people to use it like 12TET but then "bites" beginning players by having some
things work differently in random places. 17TET seems more honest: it starts
and ends differently but, at the same time, seems to provide a familiar sense of
tension/release balance.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗straub@...

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:
>
> For me 22TET has too much close to the major/minor triads and
> tetrads of 12TET that it can easily be used in a way similar to
> 12TET...and that, I'm afraid, may well cause musicians to use it
> like 12TET and for it to lose its "freshness" appeal. Plus, to my
> ears, 22TET just doesn't sound as relaxed as 17TET...at least to
> far as the music I've heard written in it (do you have any
> links of 22TET music you think is comparable in being easy-to-
> listen-to as the 17TET pieces I posted).

22TET was the "intro into microtonality" tuning in my case, and the music examples that lead me were "Tibia" by Paul Erlich
(http://music.columbia.edu/%7Echris/sounds/TIBIA.mp3) and several beautiful guitar pieces by Alison Monteith. IMHO, the latter easily beat the "Seventeen dragons dream" piece you mentioned - unfortunately, they seem, once more, not to be available nowadays. Does anybody happen to know?

> Same goes for 17TET vs.
> 16TET and especially 7TET and 14TET...don't get me wrong, I love
> Knowsur's 7TET/14TET music: but it's still much tenser than
> anything I'd expect the average listener or musician to take
> seriously.
>
> >"I think there's some kind of microtonal equivalent of the concept
> > of the "uncanny valley" in robotics. If a tuning
> >
> A) sounds like what people are used to and extends it in an
> interesting way,
> like 19 or 31, it might catch on. And if a tuning
>
> B) is completely and utterly different from 12, something like 7
> maybe, I could see it catching on just because it's so novel and
> interesting.
>
> C) But if a tuning sounds enough like 12, but certain things "just
> don't work" like you'd expect, the tuning might be really
> frustrating for beginners. 22 fits into the latter category, I
> think.
>
> I like 17TET because it seems to fall into both A and B because
> even though it sounds different, the overall feel of
> tension/release is often similar so it feels both "known but
> unknown". 22TET, as you seem to imply, seems to invite people to
> use it like 12TET but then "bites" beginning players by having some
> things work differently in random places. 17TET seems more honest:
> it starts and ends differently but, at the same time, seems to
> provide a familiar sense of tension/release balance.
>

I think C) basically holds for any tuning that is not a multiple of 12. It sure does not just for 22TET, but for 17TET (e.g. dissonant major third...) as well as for 19TET (e.g. major third too small, semitone too large...). But I don't think this is a problem. Sooner or later, something will "bite" in any case, and that exactly is the interesting part, IMHO. Otherwise people could just stay in 12TET. The most important thing IMHO is the availability of music, preferably great music, that shows the possibilities of the tuning. If there are shining examples, there is a good reason to overcome any "biting". So the first and most important advice must be: MAKE MORE MUSIC!

As for "intro to microtonality" tuning, I think that any tuning with property A) and not too many notes can work well. 16TET, 17TET, 19TET, 22TET and 24TET all qualify undoubtedly. I don't think it would be wise to name one of these as "the" intro tuning. They all have their pros and contras, and tastes differ.

A well-written introductory primer is valuable, too. Good existing examples (without too much math) are Paul Erlich's article on 22TET (http://lumma.org/tuning/erlich/erlich-decatonic.pdf), the introduction for 16TET on the Armodue site (english version on http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/Armodue+armonia), and Igliashon's article on 5n-TET temperaments.
--
Hans Straub

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

Hi Hans,

>22TET was the "intro into microtonality" tuning in my case, and the
>music examples that lead me were "Tibia" by Paul Erlich
>(http://music.columbia.edu/%7Echris/sounds/TIBIA.mp3) and several
>beautiful guitar pieces by Alison Monteith. IMHO, the latter easily
>beat the "Seventeen dragons dream" piece you mentioned -
>unfortunately, they seem, once more, not to be available nowadays.
>Does anybody happen to know?

Try James Wyness' website

http://www.wyness.org/home.html

(Alison Montheith was a pseudonym)

-Carl

🔗straub@...

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Hans,
>
> >22TET was the "intro into microtonality" tuning in my case, and
> >the music examples that lead me were "Tibia" by Paul Erlich
> >(http://music.columbia.edu/%7Echris/sounds/TIBIA.mp3) and several
> >beautiful guitar pieces by Alison Monteith. IMHO, the latter
> >easily beat the "Seventeen dragons dream" piece you mentioned -
> >unfortunately, they seem, once more, not to be available nowadays.
> >Does anybody happen to know?
>
> Try James Wyness' website
>
> http://www.wyness.org/home.html
>
> (Alison Montheith was a pseudonym)
>

I have already been there, but could not find the pieces (Satyrical, for example).
It would not have been for me, BTW (I have the pieces already), but for Michael who asked for outstanding examples serving as, so-to-say, gateway drugs into microtonality.
--
Hans Straub

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗Graham Breed <gbreed@...>

"genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@...> wrote:

> Has anyone ever made a 29edo guitar? 29 can do Barbados
> temperament among other things.

I had a Mystery (29&58) tuning for my ZTar, which amounted
to 29edo on each "string". A 29edo guitar could do Mystery
if you tuned it in neutral thirds. That's a promising way
of getting 15-limit harmony on a guitar but may need
different strings to the standard tuning.

I didn't get anything presentable with this tuning. It's
complex to navigate. A real guitar might make that easier
because the frets would be closer together.

Graham

Only in Disneyland

🔗christopherv <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

🔗Herman Miller <hmiller@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

🔗straub@...

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗straub@...

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗Graham Breed <gbreed@...>