Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup makemicromusic Contests/competition

I haven't heard any of the recent competition pieces, but overall I think Michael has a point regarding the quality of a lot of microtonal compositions. For example, I just talked to an old micro hand, Jeff Stayton, a guitarist who McLaren turned me onto years ago. He did a number of pieces on a 22 tone guitar, interesting stuff. His comment was that tuning is just one component of a piece, and I couldn't agree more. There are many potential layers of any composition...the scale(s), chord progressions, arrangement, orchestration, technical difficulty, tones of the instruments, rhythms used...not to mention melody, which is often the most difficult of all musical arts. Then, of course, does the piece have emotional/spiritual depth? Does it have deep meaning, for now and the future? Overall, that's what I look for...when the piece is over, did it move me? Make me feel/experience something of merit? Will I be listening to it years from now? I've been listening to Bach, the Beatles, Hendrix, Debussy, Django, Miles, and many others for a long time now...and they never get old, I always find something worthwhile in the music, no matter how many times I listen to it. Not so easy, but I would like to hear composers try to attain those deeper levels. But, fair enough...if folks just want to write for a hobby, and to share with their friends online, that's certainly ok too...I just don't think many people outside of a very small community will care much...and that's allright as well...best....Hstick www.microstick.net

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

My question to you Neil would be to ask your thoughts on this question:

Did Bach, the Beatles, Hendrix, Debussy, Django, Miles, and many others
*try* write to those deeper levels, or did they just do it?

Chris

On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 5:02 PM, Neil Haverstick <microstick@...> wrote:

>
>
>
> I haven't heard any of the recent competition pieces, but overall I think
> Michael has a point regarding the quality of a lot of microtonal
> compositions. For example, I just talked to an old micro hand, Jeff Stayton,
> a guitarist who McLaren turned me onto years ago. He did a number of pieces
> on a 22 tone guitar, interesting stuff. His comment was that tuning is just
> one component of a piece, and I couldn't agree more. There are many
> potential layers of any composition...the scale(s), chord progressions,
> arrangement, orchestration, technical difficulty, tones of the instruments,
> rhythms used...not to mention melody, which is often the most difficult of
> all musical arts. Then, of course, does the piece have emotional/spiritual
> depth? Does it have deep meaning, for now and the future? Overall, that's
> what I look for...when the piece is over, did it move me? Make me
> feel/experience something of merit? Will I be listening to it years from
> now? I've been listening to Bach, the Beatles, Hendrix, Debussy, Django,
> Miles, and many others for a long time now...and they never get old, I
> always find something worthwhile in the music, no matter how many times I
> listen to it. Not so easy, but I would like to hear composers try to attain
> those deeper levels. But, fair enough...if folks just want to write for a
> hobby, and to share with their friends online, that's certainly ok too...I
> just don't think many people outside of a very small community will care
> much...and that's allright as well...best....Hstick www.microstick.net
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗cameron <misterbobro@...>

I heard a skinhead song- it was very successful at conveying the emotions of hate and misery. "Emotion" in music, and the ability to "express" it, doesn't mean squat, in and of itself.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Neil Haverstick <microstick@...> wrote:
>
>
> I haven't heard any of the recent competition pieces, but overall I think Michael has a point regarding the quality of a lot of microtonal compositions. For example, I just talked to an old micro hand, Jeff Stayton, a guitarist who McLaren turned me onto years ago. He did a number of pieces on a 22 tone guitar, interesting stuff. His comment was that tuning is just one component of a piece, and I couldn't agree more. There are many potential layers of any composition...the scale(s), chord progressions, arrangement, orchestration, technical difficulty, tones of the instruments, rhythms used...not to mention melody, which is often the most difficult of all musical arts. Then, of course, does the piece have emotional/spiritual depth? Does it have deep meaning, for now and the future? Overall, that's what I look for...when the piece is over, did it move me? Make me feel/experience something of merit? Will I be listening to it years from now? I've been listening to Bach, the Beatles, Hendrix, Debussy, Django, Miles, and many others for a long time now...and they never get old, I always find something worthwhile in the music, no matter how many times I listen to it. Not so easy, but I would like to hear composers try to attain those deeper levels. But, fair enough...if folks just want to write for a hobby, and to share with their friends online, that's certainly ok too...I just don't think many people outside of a very small community will care much...and that's allright as well...best....Hstick www.microstick.net
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗cameron <misterbobro@...>

It's here

http://dl.kibla.org/dl.php?filename=ALittleRomance_CBobro.flac

for a few days. I guess most of my music is pretty emotional- at least it invokes rage in squares. :-) When I wrote this piece I was feeling some kind of nostalgia for something I couldn't put my finger on.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "cameron" <misterbobro@> wrote:
> >
> > I heard a skinhead song- it was very successful at conveying the emotions of hate and misery. "Emotion" in music, and the ability to "express" it, doesn't mean squat, in and of itself.
>
> Are you going to give a link to A Little Romance? Sounds like there might be emotion in there somewhere.
>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

This is a very quality production. I like it Cameron. It speaks to me. Very good!

Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

On Feb 2, 2011, at 1:40 AM, cameron wrote:

> It's here
>
> http://dl.kibla.org/dl.php?filename=ALittleRomance_CBobro.flac
>
> for a few days. I guess most of my music is pretty emotional- at least it invokes rage in squares. :-) When I wrote this piece I was feeling some kind of nostalgia for something I couldn't put my finger on.
>
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@...> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "cameron" <misterbobro@> wrote:
>>>
>>> I heard a skinhead song- it was very successful at conveying the emotions of hate and misery. "Emotion" in music, and the ability to "express" it, doesn't mean squat, in and of itself.
>>
>> Are you going to give a link to A Little Romance? Sounds like there might be emotion in there somewhere.
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗cameron <misterbobro@...>

Thanks Ozan! I'm very pleased you like it.

My clarinet playing has improved greatly since recording that- it is very interesting relearning all fingerings to get a 17-tone scale on a standard Bb Boehm. It's still far slower than with 12-tET fingerings, of course, because the cross-fingerings are pretty awkward, but I recently discovered that I get better tone and more microtonal lipping by taping the reed on with cellotape rather than use the metal ligature. Funky, but the odd fingerings have a fuller tone and there's places I can now bend from simpler fingerings.

Saxes are easy to bend into different tunings, but I can't afford one for a while.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...> wrote:
>
> This is a very quality production. I like it Cameron. It speaks to me. Very good!
>
> Oz.
>
> â© â© â©
> www.ozanyarman.com
>
> On Feb 2, 2011, at 1:40 AM, cameron wrote:
>
> > It's here
> >
> > http://dl.kibla.org/dl.php?filename=ALittleRomance_CBobro.flac
> >
> > for a few days. I guess most of my music is pretty emotional- at least it invokes rage in squares. :-) When I wrote this piece I was feeling some kind of nostalgia for something I couldn't put my finger on.
> >
> >
> > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "cameron" <misterbobro@> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I heard a skinhead song- it was very successful at conveying the emotions of hate and misery. "Emotion" in music, and the ability to "express" it, doesn't mean squat, in and of itself.
> >>
> >> Are you going to give a link to A Little Romance? Sounds like there might be emotion in there somewhere.
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗cameron <misterbobro@...>

🔗Daniel Forró <dan.for@...>

That's almost right. It is said (and written in one of the first Bach's biography): Count Kaiserling had insomnia, and his servant Goldberg performed these Bach's variations to make him sleep. But it's doubtful - Goldberg was only 14 in 1741 when this work was published...

What's true - these variations can have such musicotherapeutical effect because they are rather monotone, thanks to the same key and to the main principle of variations which is one theme only, differently shaped.

Daniel Forro

On 2 Feb 2011, at 9:15 AM, Carl Lumma wrote:

>>> Bach tried to write music which would put people to sleep, and ended
>>> up writing the Goldberg Variations.
>>
>> That is probably apocraphal. Or so I read. -C.
>
> At any rate, the story calls for Bach writing exercises for his
> pupil, who was the servant of a wealthy man, who found those
> exercises soothing. -C.

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

You're welcome. Having had my hands on the clarinet once or twice on occasion (succeeding to produce musical tones to boot), I can glimpse how you can achieve microtonal inflexions of pitch. Again, similar experiences can be derived from blowing the ney.

For those who may not yet know, here is a ney fingering chart interactive app by me and my Dutch colleague Paul de Haas:

http://www.ozanyarman.com/neypitchesflash.html

Once again, your composition is superb. I'm surprised it did not appear among the finalists. But I haven't listened to them all yet.

Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

On Feb 2, 2011, at 2:37 AM, cameron wrote:

> Thanks Ozan! I'm very pleased you like it.
>
> My clarinet playing has improved greatly since recording that- it is very interesting relearning all fingerings to get a 17-tone scale on a standard Bb Boehm. It's still far slower than with 12-tET fingerings, of course, because the cross-fingerings are pretty awkward, but I recently discovered that I get better tone and more microtonal lipping by taping the reed on with cellotape rather than use the metal ligature. Funky, but the odd fingerings have a fuller tone and there's places I can now bend from simpler fingerings.
>
> Saxes are easy to bend into different tunings, but I can't afford one for a while.
>
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...> wrote:
>>
>> This is a very quality production. I like it Cameron. It speaks to me. Very good!
>>
>> Oz.
>>
>> âœ© âœ© âœ©
>> www.ozanyarman.com
>>
>> On Feb 2, 2011, at 1:40 AM, cameron wrote:
>>
>>> It's here
>>>
>>> http://dl.kibla.org/dl.php?filename=ALittleRomance_CBobro.flac
>>>
>>> for a few days. I guess most of my music is pretty emotional- at least it invokes rage in squares. :-) When I wrote this piece I was feeling some kind of nostalgia for something I couldn't put my finger on.
>>>
>>>
>>> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "cameron" <misterbobro@> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I heard a skinhead song- it was very successful at conveying the emotions of hate and misery. "Emotion" in music, and the ability to "express" it, doesn't mean squat, in and of itself.
>>>>
>>>> Are you going to give a link to A Little Romance? Sounds like there might be emotion in there somewhere.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗straub@...

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

Hans,

Far as the quality (quality referring to emotional accessibility) of
pieces...hard to say but here are a few

On http://www.cityoftheasleep.com/music, try "Illegible red Ink" (from our 'own'
Igs!).

Also Sevish's song "enterprise" on http://split-notes.com/spnt005.php

And Jacky Ligon's song "Seven Diamonds" on
http://www.split-notes.com/spnt003.php

Or Sethares' Seventeen Dragon Dreams http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mck2PcsZ44

Or just about anything on Neil Haverstick's album "African Stick" or Marcus
Satellite's album "way above, way beyond".

Or many of Cameron's old orchestral songs on the Xing group (sadly the Xing
Xentonallity group is long gone and the songs no longer accessible) :-(

All of these songs have "playful", "flowing", and "instantly listenable"
pretty much written all over them.

I'd be hard pressed to find someone who would call say "weird, let's try
something else" (typical reaction when I try to show my friends microtonal
music)...they are all pretty much instantly accessible emotionally. And I
almost never hear a peep about such songs on this list, ever (minus a recent
peep from Igs about "Illegible Red Ink") saying how well the public respects
such "entertainment meets art" style songs.

Now compare those to virtually ANY song in the Untwelve competition
(especially vs. the winners) far as accessibility of emotions (not "talent" but
"accessibility") and I'm pretty sure you will hear a huge difference for the
most part...

________________________________
From: "straub@..." <straub@...>
To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, February 3, 2011 8:29:17 AM
Subject: [MMM] Re: Contests/competition

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Neil Haverstick <microstick@...> wrote:
>
>
> I haven't heard any of the recent competition pieces, but overall
> I think Michael has a point regarding the quality of a lot of
> microtonal compositions.

I would like you to hear the pieces. Your judgment would be welcome here.
I am currently listening...
--
Hans Straub

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗cameron <misterbobro@...>

Interesting, Michael- it would seem that I disagree radically with a lot of your general ideas about music, yet we come to very similar musical judgements (I'd definitely put Domina Catrina's piece in the top ten at least at the UnTwelve competition for example). So, I think that if we look under the hood we're going to find that we actually share a lot of basic ideas.

Here's what I think is going on: the distinction between intellect and emotion is bogus. For example, laughing is the epitome of emotional experience, yet you don't need to be tickeled with a feather in order to laugh, you can laugh at a witty joke, even an obscure joke very few people would even understand (specific to your professional field for example). You can think of countless examples, and even quote science on things like depression lowering your math skills or whatever.

And, just as intellect and emotion are not seperate, neither is the "technical" and "emotional" in music. What you call "confidence" and "flow" and so on can also be described as in blunt terms as "technical proficiency". And I agree- most listeners do seem to want to hear command of the material. Whether it's three campfire chords or a 5-voice fugue, there's a fundamental difference between command of the material and fudging to avoid or obscure the material.

The problem with microtonality is not microtonality- it's the lack of microtonality, too much of not taking the bull by the horns.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:
>
> Hans,
>
> Far as the quality (quality referring to emotional accessibility) of
> pieces...hard to say but here are a few
>
>
> On http://www.cityoftheasleep.com/music, try "Illegible red Ink" (from our 'own'
> Igs!).
>
>
> Also Sevish's song "enterprise" on http://split-notes.com/spnt005.php
>
> And Jacky Ligon's song "Seven Diamonds" on
> http://www.split-notes.com/spnt003.php
>
> Or Sethares' Seventeen Dragon Dreams http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mck2PcsZ44
>
> Or just about anything on Neil Haverstick's album "African Stick" or Marcus
> Satellite's album "way above, way beyond".
>
> Or many of Cameron's old orchestral songs on the Xing group (sadly the Xing
> Xentonallity group is long gone and the songs no longer accessible) :-(
>
>
>
> All of these songs have "playful", "flowing", and "instantly listenable"
> pretty much written all over them.
>
> I'd be hard pressed to find someone who would call say "weird, let's try
> something else" (typical reaction when I try to show my friends microtonal
> music)...they are all pretty much instantly accessible emotionally. And I
> almost never hear a peep about such songs on this list, ever (minus a recent
> peep from Igs about "Illegible Red Ink") saying how well the public respects
> such "entertainment meets art" style songs.
>
> Now compare those to virtually ANY song in the Untwelve competition
> (especially vs. the winners) far as accessibility of emotions (not "talent" but
> "accessibility") and I'm pretty sure you will hear a huge difference for the
> most part...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: "straub@..." <straub@...>
> To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thu, February 3, 2011 8:29:17 AM
> Subject: [MMM] Re: Contests/competition
>
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Neil Haverstick <microstick@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > I haven't heard any of the recent competition pieces, but overall
> > I think Michael has a point regarding the quality of a lot of
> > microtonal compositions.
>
> I would like you to hear the pieces. Your judgment would be welcome here.
> I am currently listening...
> --
> Hans Straub
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗Daniel Forró <dan.for@...>

I can't agree. There's a technical, craftmanship aspect in music -
everything what we can study and master as composers (theory) and
performers (playing the instrument or sing). This is independent on
music style and culture. Study can be based on just copying your
teacher (in Eastern tradition) or from books, scores or records
(West), the way is not so important.

And all this science is then used to express emotions. But it's
impossible to learn this part. Emotions can differ and depend on the
listener what /s/he will find in the music.

Unbalanced music can be:
- too technical, constructive, less emotional, or in the case of
performers too much perfect and virtuosic (empty virtuosity). But
even so it will still communicate some emotions - coolness is also
emotion...
- too emotional, free form, improvised, without rules, amorph

Both extremes will be boring. Good music work must be intellectually
and emotionally balanced. IMHO this was always the main target of all
composers. Such art is called "classical". And there are many proofs
for my opinion. Music is not only emotional. That's the reason for
existence of music theory and all great achievements done by
generations of great music thinkers and creators.

What's wrong with this understanding?

Daniel Forro

On 4 Feb 2011, at 8:20 AM, cameron wrote:
>
> And, just as intellect and emotion are not seperate, neither is the
> "technical" and "emotional" in music. What you call "confidence"
> and "flow" and so on can also be described as in blunt terms as
> "technical proficiency". And I agree- most listeners do seem to
> want to hear command of the material. Whether it's three campfire
> chords or a 5-voice fugue, there's a fundamental difference between
> command of the material and fudging to avoid or obscure the material.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗cameron <misterbobro@...>

What's wrong with this understanding is that emotion and intellect are not distinct entities.

Have you never laughed at a witticism, or do you only laugh at slapstick, or being tickled? Have you never been turned on by a woman's intelligence, or does it have to be T+A or appropriate groping out in the canebrake? Have you never seen the passion of a mathmetician or experienced the clarity of thought and understanding that can come in moments of overwhelming emotion?

The distinction between intellect and emotion is patently bogus. It is so glaringly false that you've got to wonder why it persists. We can fly to the moon but we can't acknowledge the obvious implications of the fact that it is not necessary to hit someone to make them cry? I suggest looking at where the idea is most obviously perpetuated, which is in ideas of race, gender and class. "The soulful black man, the intellectual white man" and that kind of thing, see?

The distinction is sewage, plain and simple. And treating the technical and emotional in music as if they were two distinct things is just building on that stinking shit concept.

Even when we grant a large degree of provisional independence to the concepts, which of course we often do even when we realize that they are not really seperate concepts, a little reflection will reveal what boloney all that stuff we learned about the technical and the emotional is.

For example the point of Pop is product and sales, and being part of the Zeitgeist. We have pretty concrete standards by which to judge technical excellence in Pop music. This means that when a guy laborioulsy picks out a simple riff with one thumb and it appears as a ringtone on a million cell phones, the music and his compositional skills are technically superb. A lightning fret-spanker or brilliant fuguist who are tradtionally percieved of as "technically great" are in fact, in Pop, technically complete incompetents.

Once you realize the fraudulence of the basic concepts, great big chunks of musical and artisic "knowledge" come crashing down.

It's a hard thing face.

-Cameron Bobro

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Forró <dan.for@...> wrote:
>
> I can't agree. There's a technical, craftmanship aspect in music -
> everything what we can study and master as composers (theory) and
> performers (playing the instrument or sing). This is independent on
> music style and culture. Study can be based on just copying your
> teacher (in Eastern tradition) or from books, scores or records
> (West), the way is not so important.
>
> And all this science is then used to express emotions. But it's
> impossible to learn this part. Emotions can differ and depend on the
> listener what /s/he will find in the music.
>
> Unbalanced music can be:
> - too technical, constructive, less emotional, or in the case of
> performers too much perfect and virtuosic (empty virtuosity). But
> even so it will still communicate some emotions - coolness is also
> emotion...
> - too emotional, free form, improvised, without rules, amorph
>
> Both extremes will be boring. Good music work must be intellectually
> and emotionally balanced. IMHO this was always the main target of all
> composers. Such art is called "classical". And there are many proofs
> for my opinion. Music is not only emotional. That's the reason for
> existence of music theory and all great achievements done by
> generations of great music thinkers and creators.
>
> What's wrong with this understanding?
>
> Daniel Forro
>
>
> On 4 Feb 2011, at 8:20 AM, cameron wrote:
> >
> > And, just as intellect and emotion are not seperate, neither is the
> > "technical" and "emotional" in music. What you call "confidence"
> > and "flow" and so on can also be described as in blunt terms as
> > "technical proficiency". And I agree- most listeners do seem to
> > want to hear command of the material. Whether it's three campfire
> > chords or a 5-voice fugue, there's a fundamental difference between
> > command of the material and fudging to avoid or obscure the material.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Contests/competition

🔗Neil Haverstick <microstick@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗cameron <misterbobro@...>

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗cameron <misterbobro@...>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗cameron <misterbobro@...>

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗cameron <misterbobro@...>

🔗Daniel Forró <dan.for@...>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗straub@...

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

🔗cameron <misterbobro@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗Daniel Forró <dan.for@...>

🔗cameron <misterbobro@...>