Blues again

Here's a quote from Miles Davis's autobiography: "I always liked the blues and always loved to play it, so around this time I was listening to Muddy Waters and BB King and trying to find a way to get that voicing into my music." (p288)...and..."See, when I used to listen to Muddy Waters in Chicago down on 33rd and Michigan every Monday when he played there and I would be in town, I knew I had to get some of what he was doing up in my music." (same page)...And from Diz's autobiography, talking about blues feeling..."I know the blues, but Hot Lips Page is a blues man. When he plays trumpet, he plays it like a blues player would play. My music is not that deep-not as deep as his-not as deep as Hot Lips Page or Charlie Parker, because Yard knew the blues." and..." Johnny Hodges is a blues player...He could moan a while." (p310). Hodges was Duke Ellington's long time sax man...and Duke's blues album "Blues in Orbit" is a masterpiece...looks like there's some deep blues in Ellington's music too...and Bird wrote many great blues standards, including "Billie's Bounce," "Au Privave," and "Blues for Alice," which is a masterful reworking of the traditional 12 bar form.
And Carl...you are absolutely incorrect in your assessment that rock has nothing to do with Delta blues...Rob Johnson's songs and guitar playing had a vast influence on rock players; the shuffle rhythm that is so ubiquitous in rock music ("Smokin' in the Boys Room," by Motley Crew is a great example) comes straight from Rob's playing...listen to him sometime and you'll see what I mean. And "Crossroads," "Love in Vain," Sweet Home Chicago," and many more of his tunes were taken by groups such as Cream and the Stones and turned into rock standards. And since Johnson was heavily influenced by Son House and other older Delta cats, guess some of their spirit is in rock, too. And again...I'm betting most folks here have little knowledge of Hendrix's early roots, playing blues and R&B on the chitlin' circuit...when he played the Monterey Pop Fest in 1967, he started out with "Killin' Floor," by Wolf, and also included "Rock me, Baby," by BB King in his set....I don't mind a discussion about this subject, but a more informed discussion would be better.

And Carl again...when you say silly things like we'll be telling you that Gershwin was black, you add nothing but nonsense to the chat. You have a long history of saying crap like that, and you seem to have a real knack for starting a ruckus...in my opinion, this list would be a more peaceful place if you were not on it.

And...of course there are many influences in American music, from all sorts of places...but, this thread started by Lumma saying the blues began and ended with Johnson, which is very far removed from reality...the blues, and the deep feeling it contains, are an essential ingredient of jazz, R&B, gospel, soul, and R&R, and folks like Gershwin as well...best...Hstick

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>"And again...I'm betting most folks here have little knowledge of Hendrix's
>early roots, playing blues and R&B on the chitlin' circuit...when he played the
>Monterey Pop Fest in 1967, he started out with "Killin' Floor," by Wolf, and
>also included "Rock me, Baby," by BB King in his set....I don't mind a
>discussion about this subject, but a more informed discussion would be better."

Yet it seems...you have to go pretty far off the beaten path (and before his
fame) to find Hendrix playing straight blues.

>"but, this thread started by Lumma saying the blues began and ended with
>Johnson"

Well, of course it didn't, there were so many great blues artists after
Johnson. On the other hand, did blues ever evolve into something very evolved
what Johnson did? I'd still vote no...you get artists like Stevie Ray Vaughn
who were of another level...but what they did was IMVHO very much famous because
it added new, very different, elements to the blues formula (in his case, almost
shred-rock-like solos). And if you argue Carlos Santana kept blues fresh for a
while, well...I'd argue he did so by adding more and more Latin
influences...otherwise, go figure his new stuff would sound a lot more like
straight blues...

>"the deep feeling it contains, are an essential ingredient of jazz, R&B,
>gospel, soul, and R&R, and folks like Gershwin as well...best "

Not arguing with that...I too am all for the idea that virtually all genres
nowadays, either related to hip-hop styles (and R&B), funk, jazz, and any type
of big-band or rock music are very much influenced by blues. But how many
famous current artists do you see following the 3-or-so chord blues formula in
all of their songs making huge waves? I'm hard pressed to name even one...maybe
if SRV was still alive..ok, maybe Eric Clapton (who still does straight blues
every now and then)...but that's about it. What other straight blues artists
are still around?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

there seems to be some confusion between "playing music that you would call
traditional blues" and "music that grew from, or incorporates, blues
influences". The point is not that everybody is playing the traditional
blues, but rather that traditional blues is a major starting point for all
these other styles, they are all unthinkable without the blues behind them
and within them.

Stevie Ray Vaughn and Eric Clapton are, in my opinion, good examples of lame
derivative music and playing. All the white english guitarists in the 60s
were desperate to try and emulate the delta blues players (this is
documented, so if anyone starts objecting i will not reply), none moreso
than clapton, who is just a particularly lame version. The more you imitate,
the lamer you are. Stevie Ray is just warmed over Hendrix, whose sandal he
is not fit to untie.

On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 2:44 PM, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:

>
>
> >"And again...I'm betting most folks here have little knowledge of
> Hendrix's
> >early roots, playing blues and R&B on the chitlin' circuit...when he
> played the
> >Monterey Pop Fest in 1967, he started out with "Killin' Floor," by Wolf,
> and
> >also included "Rock me, Baby," by BB King in his set....I don't mind a
> >discussion about this subject, but a more informed discussion would be
> better."
>
> Yet it seems...you have to go pretty far off the beaten path (and before
> his
> fame) to find Hendrix playing straight blues.
>
> >"but, this thread started by Lumma saying the blues began and ended with
> >Johnson"
>
> Well, of course it didn't, there were so many great blues artists after
> Johnson. On the other hand, did blues ever evolve into something very
> evolved
> what Johnson did? I'd still vote no...you get artists like Stevie Ray
> Vaughn
> who were of another level...but what they did was IMVHO very much famous
> because
> it added new, very different, elements to the blues formula (in his case,
> almost
> shred-rock-like solos). And if you argue Carlos Santana kept blues fresh
> for a
> while, well...I'd argue he did so by adding more and more Latin
> influences...otherwise, go figure his new stuff would sound a lot more like
>
> straight blues...
>
>
> >"the deep feeling it contains, are an essential ingredient of jazz, R&B,
> >gospel, soul, and R&R, and folks like Gershwin as well...best "
>
> Not arguing with that...I too am all for the idea that virtually all genres
>
> nowadays, either related to hip-hop styles (and R&B), funk, jazz, and any
> type
> of big-band or rock music are very much influenced by blues. But how many
> famous current artists do you see following the 3-or-so chord blues formula
> in
> all of their songs making huge waves? I'm hard pressed to name even
> one...maybe
> if SRV was still alive..ok, maybe Eric Clapton (who still does straight
> blues
> every now and then)...but that's about it. What other straight blues
> artists
> are still around?
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dante>"The point is not that everybody is playing the traditional blues, but
rather that traditional blues is a major starting point for all
these other styles, they are all unthinkable without the blues behind them and
within them."

Agreed...it all comes down to influence.

>"Stevie Ray Vaughn and Eric Clapton are, in my opinion, good examples of lame
>derivative music and playing....none moreso
than Clapton"

Clapton I have to agree about (adds little new technique or style and soft
ballad-like voicing in place of original soul-like blues voicing)...SRV not so
much... Yes, SRV's backing was cheesy/derivative, but what he did with solos
was legendary (note, articles also tend to mention his solos and not his
not-so-hot songwriting skills outside of his improv solos...go figure).

>"The more you imitate, the lamer you are. Stevie Ray is just warmed over
>Hendrix, whose sandal he is not fit to untie."

He's like Hendrix in that he plays shred solos with blues-like tones and
bends...but give me any solo and I can tell you very quickly which of the two
showmen did it. In a word, I don't believe SRV was ever, by any means, ripping
off Hendrix or trying to. Same goes with Van Halen vs. Steve Vai vs. Joe
Satriani: all shred guitarists doing hard rock (and not metal) type music...but
all with noticeably different tone and motifs.

Just curious, what specifically do you think is derivative/copied between SRV
and Hendrix...or between Hendrix and straight blues? IMVHO, SRV is actually a
lot closer to straight blues than Hendrix...and even the way he does solos is
more bluesy (slow bends, progressive wails after fairly shortly held bends, very
smooth) than Hendrix (fast bends, then long holds...low note palm muting in
between the wails, lots of rough portamentos...a lot more hard rock-like, even
almost metal-like at time). Compare Hendrix's "Purple Haze" to SRV's "Pride and
Joy", for example...

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Michael-

Hendrix playing songs like "Red House" or "Killing Floor" is nutin' but the
blues, and how. SRV always claimed that Hendrix was god, and his playing
shows that he thought so.

On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 3:24 PM, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:

>
>
> Dante>"The point is not that everybody is playing the traditional blues,
> but
> rather that traditional blues is a major starting point for all
> these other styles, they are all unthinkable without the blues behind them
> and
> within them."
>
> Agreed...it all comes down to influence.
>
>
> >"Stevie Ray Vaughn and Eric Clapton are, in my opinion, good examples of
> lame
> >derivative music and playing....none moreso
> than Clapton"
>
> Clapton I have to agree about (adds little new technique or style and soft
> ballad-like voicing in place of original soul-like blues voicing)...SRV not
> so
> much... Yes, SRV's backing was cheesy/derivative, but what he did with
> solos
> was legendary (note, articles also tend to mention his solos and not his
> not-so-hot songwriting skills outside of his improv solos...go figure).
>
> >"The more you imitate, the lamer you are. Stevie Ray is just warmed over
> >Hendrix, whose sandal he is not fit to untie."
>
> He's like Hendrix in that he plays shred solos with blues-like tones and
> bends...but give me any solo and I can tell you very quickly which of the
> two
> showmen did it. In a word, I don't believe SRV was ever, by any means,
> ripping
> off Hendrix or trying to. Same goes with Van Halen vs. Steve Vai vs. Joe
> Satriani: all shred guitarists doing hard rock (and not metal) type
> music...but
> all with noticeably different tone and motifs.
>
> Just curious, what specifically do you think is derivative/copied between
> SRV
> and Hendrix...or between Hendrix and straight blues? IMVHO, SRV is actually
> a
> lot closer to straight blues than Hendrix...and even the way he does solos
> is
> more bluesy (slow bends, progressive wails after fairly shortly held bends,
> very
> smooth) than Hendrix (fast bends, then long holds...low note palm muting in
>
> between the wails, lots of rough portamentos...a lot more hard rock-like,
> even
> almost metal-like at time). Compare Hendrix's "Purple Haze" to SRV's "Pride
> and
> Joy", for example...
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Surprised I haven't seen the Black Keys mentioned yet, probably the most popular living blues musicians

Check out their first 3-4 CDs , really raw and great stuff