Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup makemicromusic More blues

Wow...sensa humor here, folks...from the comments I just saw about blues, it seems obvious to me that most of you cats have very little, if any, real understanding/knowledge of what blues really is. But, not a big surprise...because, as with any field, there has to be a lot of hands on experience with a subject before one really knows what's going on. To say that Hendrix, Basie, Parker, and Miles were not blues artists is astonishing...cause they were. BB King gave Bird a ride to a gig once, and Parker told him that he was a bluesman at heart...and just reading Dizzy Gillespie's autobiography yesterday, and he too said that Bird had the deep blues feeling. Hendrix, who I have listened to/read about/analyzed extensively was, perhaps, the greatest blues guitarist of them all...he took what came before him, and recast it for his time and the future. When he went to England in 1966, he toasted every guitarist in the country in the first few weeks, changed their lives forever. And as a composer of modern blues, he was unparalled..."Hear My Train a Comin," "Voodoo Child," "Machine Gun," and many others...these are still, over 40 years later, state of the art modern blues.

Miles wrote one of the all time classic blues songs, "All Blues," and talks in his bio about getting that low down blues feeling in his music, how he dug that (as he put it) "two chord blues" feeling, and how he recalled hearing church music out in the sticks as a kid, and the deep effect it had on him. And Basie? Wow...some of the best big band blues ever played, with the legendary Freddie Greene on guitar...one of the great rhythm sections of all time. And if it sounds "boring," well, indeed, there is a lot of repetition in the genre...but, great art is in the details, and there are countless ways of interpreting a so called 3 chord progression...or a one chord progression. And don't forget the lyrics...blues speaks to deep emotional and spiritual experiences...when Rob Johnson sings "Me and the devil/were walkin' side by side," there's a lot going on for those that care to feel it.

But, again...I don't think most of the folks on this list have much, if any, real familiarity with blues, so no biggie...I think it's a great mode of expression, with a wide open future...best...Hstick

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

Of course Neil, it is not like IDM, hip-hop, trance, techno, or the
electronic genres have repetition to speak of.

:-)

On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 12:54 PM, Neil Haverstick <microstick@...>wrote:

>
>
>
> Wow...sensa humor here, folks...from the comments I just saw about blues,
> it seems obvious to me that most of you cats have very little, if any, real
> understanding/knowledge of what blues really is. But, not a big
> surprise...because, as with any field, there has to be a lot of hands on
> experience with a subject before one really knows what's going on. To say
> that Hendrix, Basie, Parker, and Miles were not blues artists is
> astonishing...cause they were. BB King gave Bird a ride to a gig once, and
> Parker told him that he was a bluesman at heart...and just reading Dizzy
> Gillespie's autobiography yesterday, and he too said that Bird had the deep
> blues feeling. Hendrix, who I have listened to/read about/analyzed
> extensively was, perhaps, the greatest blues guitarist of them all...he took
> what came before him, and recast it for his time and the future. When he
> went to England in 1966, he toasted every guitarist in the country in the
> first few weeks, changed their lives forever. And as a composer of modern
> blues, he was unparalled..."Hear My Train a Comin," "Voodoo Child," "Machine
> Gun," and many others...these are still, over 40 years later, state of the
> art modern blues.
>
> Miles wrote one of the all time classic blues songs, "All Blues," and talks
> in his bio about getting that low down blues feeling in his music, how he
> dug that (as he put it) "two chord blues" feeling, and how he recalled
> hearing church music out in the sticks as a kid, and the deep effect it had
> on him. And Basie? Wow...some of the best big band blues ever played, with
> the legendary Freddie Greene on guitar...one of the great rhythm sections of
> all time. And if it sounds "boring," well, indeed, there is a lot of
> repetition in the genre...but, great art is in the details, and there are
> countless ways of interpreting a so called 3 chord progression...or a one
> chord progression. And don't forget the lyrics...blues speaks to deep
> emotional and spiritual experiences...when Rob Johnson sings "Me and the
> devil/were walkin' side by side," there's a lot going on for those that care
> to feel it.
>
> But, again...I don't think most of the folks on this list have much, if
> any, real familiarity with blues, so no biggie...I think it's a great mode
> of expression, with a wide open future...best...Hstick
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

>"To say that Hendrix, Basie, Parker, and Miles were not blues artists is
>astonishing...cause they were."

Funny...most of said above artists are considered jazz with a touch of
blues...why would you consider them blues over jazz?
The real one that jumps out is Hendrix because his chord progressions sure
don't follow blues rules...though with his vocals I could see how someone could
still make a connection between him and blues. Same goes for artists like Dr.
John http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._John and Fats Domino....they have a lot of
blues influence, but lean more toward things like rock and roll and zydeco than
the original blues "formula". If we changed things from "great blues musician"
to "great musicians with a good share of blues influence", I'd nominate
guitarist Slash of Guns and Roses (lol)...nothing he does is technically blues
but his moods and use of slow smooth bends scream "bluesy".

>"Hendrix, who I have listened to/read about/analyzed extensively was, perhaps,
>the greatest blues guitarist of them all"

No doubt, he is awesome, though. But who's to say he wasn't more psychedelic
rock than blues? Stevie Ray, got to give him credit, is obviously blues...but
the way he handles rhythm seriously distorts from standard blues (in a
good/interesting way) and the way he shreds in solos borders on shred rock (and,
hence, Steve Vai, Joe Satriani, Eric Johnson, and co. often make dedicated songs
to him).

>"Miles wrote one of the all time classic blues songs, "All Blues," and talks in
>his bio about getting that low down blues feeling in his music, how he dug that
>(as he put it) "two chord blues" feeling"

Right, but country and a lot of the simpler house music around can make that
same "two chord live feeling" argument....I have a tough time believing that's
specific to blues.

>"And don't forget the lyrics...blues speaks to deep emotional and spiritual
>experiences...when Rob Johnson sings "Me and the devil/were walkin' side by
>side," there's a lot going on for those that care to feel it. "

It's a fair argument...that what makes blues, by and large, is the change in
lyrics from song to song and, as with Gospel and Soul...soulful singing and
lyrics are a must.

>"But, again...I don't think most of the folks on this list have much, if any,
>real familiarity with blues"

Believe me, I've heard a good deal of it. My father is a blues fanatic and
the first songs on the guitar he taught me were blues covers! :-0

My challenge to you, Neil, is rather than making the argument of "people
here don't like blues because they haven't heard enough of it"...why not give us
some specific, practical examples of musicians doing things with blues unique
from other genres (specifically, including creative use of microtones and such).
:-)

________________________________
From: Neil Haverstick <microstick@...>
To: makemicromusic@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, January 27, 2011 11:54:02 AM
Subject: [MMM] More blues

Wow...sensa humor here, folks...from the comments I just saw about blues, it
seems obvious to me that most of you cats have very little, if any, real
understanding/knowledge of what blues really is. But, not a big
surprise...because, as with any field, there has to be a lot of hands on
experience with a subject before one really knows what's going on. To say that
Hendrix, Basie, Parker, and Miles were not blues artists is astonishing...cause
they were. BB King gave Bird a ride to a gig once, and Parker told him that he
was a bluesman at heart...and just reading Dizzy Gillespie's autobiography
yesterday, and he too said that Bird had the deep blues feeling. Hendrix, who I
have listened to/read about/analyzed extensively was, perhaps, the greatest
blues guitarist of them all...he took what came before him, and recast it for
his time and the future. When he went to England in 1966, he toasted every
guitarist in the country in the first few weeks, changed their lives forever.
And as a composer of modern blues, he was unparalled..."Hear My Train a Comin,"
"Voodoo Child," "Machine Gun," and many others...these are still, over 40 years
later, state of the art modern blues.

Miles wrote one of the all time classic blues songs, "All Blues," and talks in
his bio about getting that low down blues feeling in his music, how he dug that
(as he put it) "two chord blues" feeling, and how he recalled hearing church
music out in the sticks as a kid, and the deep effect it had on him. And Basie?
Wow...some of the best big band blues ever played, with the legendary Freddie
Greene on guitar...one of the great rhythm sections of all time. And if it
sounds "boring," well, indeed, there is a lot of repetition in the genre...but,
great art is in the details, and there are countless ways of interpreting a so
called 3 chord progression...or a one chord progression. And don't forget the
lyrics...blues speaks to deep emotional and spiritual experiences...when Rob
Johnson sings "Me and the devil/were walkin' side by side," there's a lot going
on for those that care to feel it.

But, again...I don't think most of the folks on this list have much, if any,
real familiarity with blues, so no biggie...I think it's a great mode of
expression, with a wide open future...best...Hstick

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Dante Rosati <danterosati@...>

Neil is absolutely right. First of all, all of black american music is blues
based. jazz is simply blues with more complex chords and scales. Hendrix
plays straight blues in "Red House" if theres any doubt that he can, but
much of his soloing is basically overdriven blues. rock and roll was
invented by chuck berry and bo diddley. black musicians originated every
american musical style of any note, and they're all coming from the blues.
end of story.

On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 7:24 PM, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:

>
>
> >"To say that Hendrix, Basie, Parker, and Miles were not blues artists is
> >astonishing...cause they were."
>
> Funny...most of said above artists are considered jazz with a touch of
> blues...why would you consider them blues over jazz?
> The real one that jumps out is Hendrix because his chord progressions sure
> don't follow blues rules...though with his vocals I could see how someone
> could
> still make a connection between him and blues. Same goes for artists like
> Dr.
> John http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._John and Fats Domino....they have a
> lot of
> blues influence, but lean more toward things like rock and roll and zydeco
> than
> the original blues "formula". If we changed things from "great blues
> musician"
> to "great musicians with a good share of blues influence", I'd nominate
> guitarist Slash of Guns and Roses (lol)...nothing he does is technically
> blues
> but his moods and use of slow smooth bends scream "bluesy".
>
> >"Hendrix, who I have listened to/read about/analyzed extensively was,
> perhaps,
> >the greatest blues guitarist of them all"
>
> No doubt, he is awesome, though. But who's to say he wasn't more
> psychedelic
> rock than blues? Stevie Ray, got to give him credit, is obviously
> blues...but
> the way he handles rhythm seriously distorts from standard blues (in a
> good/interesting way) and the way he shreds in solos borders on shred rock
> (and,
> hence, Steve Vai, Joe Satriani, Eric Johnson, and co. often make dedicated
> songs
> to him).
>
> >"Miles wrote one of the all time classic blues songs, "All Blues," and
> talks in
> >his bio about getting that low down blues feeling in his music, how he dug
> that
> >(as he put it) "two chord blues" feeling"
>
> Right, but country and a lot of the simpler house music around can make
> that
> same "two chord live feeling" argument....I have a tough time believing
> that's
> specific to blues.
>
> >"And don't forget the lyrics...blues speaks to deep emotional and
> spiritual
> >experiences...when Rob Johnson sings "Me and the devil/were walkin' side
> by
> >side," there's a lot going on for those that care to feel it. "
>
> It's a fair argument...that what makes blues, by and large, is the change
> in
> lyrics from song to song and, as with Gospel and Soul...soulful singing and
>
> lyrics are a must.
>
> >"But, again...I don't think most of the folks on this list have much, if
> any,
> >real familiarity with blues"
>
> Believe me, I've heard a good deal of it. My father is a blues fanatic and
> the first songs on the guitar he taught me were blues covers! :-0
>
> My challenge to you, Neil, is rather than making the argument of "people
> here don't like blues because they haven't heard enough of it"...why not
> give us
> some specific, practical examples of musicians doing things with blues
> unique
> from other genres (specifically, including creative use of microtones and
> such).
> :-)
>
> ________________________________
> From: Neil Haverstick <microstick@... <microstick%40msn.com>>
> To: makemicromusic@yahoogroups.com <makemicromusic%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thu, January 27, 2011 11:54:02 AM
> Subject: [MMM] More blues
>
> Wow...sensa humor here, folks...from the comments I just saw about blues,
> it
> seems obvious to me that most of you cats have very little, if any, real
> understanding/knowledge of what blues really is. But, not a big
> surprise...because, as with any field, there has to be a lot of hands on
> experience with a subject before one really knows what's going on. To say
> that
> Hendrix, Basie, Parker, and Miles were not blues artists is
> astonishing...cause
> they were. BB King gave Bird a ride to a gig once, and Parker told him that
> he
> was a bluesman at heart...and just reading Dizzy Gillespie's autobiography
> yesterday, and he too said that Bird had the deep blues feeling. Hendrix,
> who I
> have listened to/read about/analyzed extensively was, perhaps, the greatest
>
> blues guitarist of them all...he took what came before him, and recast it
> for
> his time and the future. When he went to England in 1966, he toasted every
> guitarist in the country in the first few weeks, changed their lives
> forever.
> And as a composer of modern blues, he was unparalled..."Hear My Train a
> Comin,"
> "Voodoo Child," "Machine Gun," and many others...these are still, over 40
> years
> later, state of the art modern blues.
>
> Miles wrote one of the all time classic blues songs, "All Blues," and talks
> in
> his bio about getting that low down blues feeling in his music, how he dug
> that
> (as he put it) "two chord blues" feeling, and how he recalled hearing
> church
> music out in the sticks as a kid, and the deep effect it had on him. And
> Basie?
> Wow...some of the best big band blues ever played, with the legendary
> Freddie
> Greene on guitar...one of the great rhythm sections of all time. And if it
> sounds "boring," well, indeed, there is a lot of repetition in the
> genre...but,
> great art is in the details, and there are countless ways of interpreting a
> so
> called 3 chord progression...or a one chord progression. And don't forget
> the
> lyrics...blues speaks to deep emotional and spiritual experiences...when
> Rob
> Johnson sings "Me and the devil/were walkin' side by side," there's a lot
> going
> on for those that care to feel it.
>
> But, again...I don't think most of the folks on this list have much, if
> any,
> real familiarity with blues, so no biggie...I think it's a great mode of
> expression, with a wide open future...best...Hstick
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗Dante Rosati <danterosati@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

I wasn't going to reply because this is all OT, but it is also BS.
Were you being sarcastic? Bebop isn't blues and the only sense in
which it could conceivably be said to come from blues is as a
contrasting alternative. Remembering musicians like Bird or Monk as
blues players is absurd, and calling all American music blues just
makes the term meaningless. Ragtime predates the blues, for starters.
Rock came out of R&B, which was a radio-commercialized, danceable
take on the blues, yes. It has about as much to do with Delta blues
as Y-Crew has to do with traditional Arabic music.

I have no idea what to make of the statement that black musicians
originated every American music style of significance... American
music is one of the greatest multicultural ollaborations in history
and to say that European or African influence predominates in any
form is absurd. From mostly-white Sacred Harp singing and Britpop
to mostly-black hip-hop, the influence of the contributing cultures
is impossible to separate. Next you'll be telling me Gershwin
was black. -Carl

At 04:42 PM 1/27/2011, Dante wrote:
>Neil is absolutely right. First of all, all of black american music is blues
>based. jazz is simply blues with more complex chords and scales. Hendrix
>plays straight blues in "Red House" if theres any doubt that he can, but
>much of his soloing is basically overdriven blues. rock and roll was
>invented by chuck berry and bo diddley. black musicians originated every
>american musical style of any note, and they're all coming from the blues.
>end of story.

🔗Dante Rosati <danterosati@...>

bebop isn't simply blues, but the vector from blues to bebop is clearly
audible to anyone whose ears are not full of wax. Bird and Monk both
absorbed the blues into their bones and it informed everything they did,
whatever the other influences were. I thought it was self evident, so I'm
also with Neil in his astonishment that anyone would even think of
questioning it.

On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 8:13 PM, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:

>
>
> I wasn't going to reply because this is all OT, but it is also BS.
> Were you being sarcastic? Bebop isn't blues and the only sense in
> which it could conceivably be said to come from blues is as a
> contrasting alternative. Remembering musicians like Bird or Monk as
> blues players is absurd, and calling all American music blues just
> makes the term meaningless. Ragtime predates the blues, for starters.
> Rock came out of R&B, which was a radio-commercialized, danceable
> take on the blues, yes. It has about as much to do with Delta blues
> as Y-Crew has to do with traditional Arabic music.
>
> I have no idea what to make of the statement that black musicians
> originated every American music style of significance... American
> music is one of the greatest multicultural ollaborations in history
> and to say that European or African influence predominates in any
> form is absurd. From mostly-white Sacred Harp singing and Britpop
> to mostly-black hip-hop, the influence of the contributing cultures
> is impossible to separate. Next you'll be telling me Gershwin
> was black. -Carl
>
>
> At 04:42 PM 1/27/2011, Dante wrote:
> >Neil is absolutely right. First of all, all of black american music is
> blues
> >based. jazz is simply blues with more complex chords and scales. Hendrix
> >plays straight blues in "Red House" if theres any doubt that he can, but
> >much of his soloing is basically overdriven blues. rock and roll was
> >invented by chuck berry and bo diddley. black musicians originated every
> >american musical style of any note, and they're all coming from the blues.
> >end of story.
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗Daniel Forró <dan.for@...>

Not quite true concerning roots and origin of jazz. And I don't think black musicians had SO big influence on American music. There's also European church music, folk music and art music , Latin music, later also Asian music coming with all those immigrants to the Wild West.

You are right about blues, but that's base only for melody and basic atmosphere. When we talk about jazz we have to count also liturgic stream starting somewhere at Protestant church Anthems and going to spirituals, Gospel and Soul (in synthesis with chants and shouts). Then European military marching and brassband music leading to Dixieland (originally performed by black musicians), European popular marches+dancing music of 19th century (like polka, quadrille, galop, Vienna waltz, French cancan etc.) where ragtime originated (also invention of black musicians), and later also influences of European art music (impressionism, expressionism, serial music, timbre music, aleatorics...), Latin music (Spanish, Brazilian, Cuban, Caribic...), American Country and much much later other world music.

Harmonic form of 12-bar blues was also base for boogie-woogie and rock'n'roll, so this tradition was kept really long. Blues is very flexible and open, that's why it's still living.

What about Mark Knopfler's Dire Straits, Animals, John Mayall, Johny Winter, Fleetwood Mac, Yardbirds, Eric Clapton's Cream, Pink Floyd, Rolling Stones, Rory Gallagher, Ry Cooder, Carlos Santana and many others? And art music was influenced by blues as well.

And Neil, don't be afraid, I'm sure there's a lot of people loving blues, listening to it and performing it, even in this group of experimental music. Count me, too, on piano, synthesizers and Hammond organ :-). For us musicians living long years behind the Iron Curtain blues was a connection to the Western culture, to American culture, tolerated by communistic government - they couldn't prohibit it despite all their effort as we had an excellent argument why to play it: it was a music of poor black American workers suppressed by evil white capitalistic Uncle Toms from Wall Street :-) Performing it we showed our solidarity with them and with liberation and emancipation movement. At least to the official structures and censors. The real reason was we just loved blues.

Daniel Forro

On 28 Jan 2011, at 9:42 AM, Dante Rosati wrote:

> Neil is absolutely right. First of all, all of black american music > is blues
> based. jazz is simply blues with more complex chords and scales. > Hendrix
> plays straight blues in "Red House" if theres any doubt that he > can, but
> much of his soloing is basically overdriven blues. rock and roll was
> invented by chuck berry and bo diddley. black musicians originated > every
> american musical style of any note, and they're all coming from the > blues.
> end of story.

🔗kalleaho@...

🔗Dante Rosati <danterosati@...>

ok so you're naming a bunch of found objects, but who do you think used
those objects to create styles of music that have gone global?

On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 8:33 PM, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:

>
>
> At 04:57 PM 1/27/2011, you wrote:
> >ragtime was developed by black musicians but it predated what we think of
> as
> >the blues by a couple of decades. listen to bessie smith's urban blues to
> >hear how the piano seques into blues from ragtime. gospel has its origins
> in
> >"negro spirituals", field hollers and the like: where do you think blues
> >came from? barbershop, like heavy metal and punk rock, shows what happens
> >when white people are given creative freedom. :-0
>
> Barbershop has its origins in black Jubilee choirs - college kids singing
> spirituals in a European style. Ragtime has origins in American civil war
> music, including military marches, and in vaudeville/circus music, all of
> which sound a bit like Strauss. The percussion and brass instruments first
> used in dixieland were likely often war leftovers, and the first dixieland
> jazz was probably heard on parade. Jazz owes as much to this line of
> development as it does to the blues. -Carl
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗kalleaho@...

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

>"Neil is absolutely right. First of all, all of black american music is blues
>based. jazz is simply blues with more complex chords and scales"
Well if jazz was blues...I'd agree many of the example players were blues
players. But it's not...jazz is something that developed from blues, but it's
not blues.

Carl>"Remembering musicians like Bird or Monk as blues players is absurd, and
calling all American music blues just makes the term meaningless. Ragtime
predates the blues, for starters.
Rock came out of R&B, which was a radio-commercialized, danceable take on the
blues, yes. It has about as much to do with Delta blues as Y-Crew has to do
with traditional Arabic music."

Point takes...there are TONS of styles and genres that DEVELOPED out of blues IE
it was highly inspirational...but far as having popular musicians playing it in
strict form...it has few champions. BB King, ok. Stevie Ray Vaughn, ok. John
Lee Hooker, ok. But all these others that are either jazz or did a blues cover
maybe once in their careers...I wouldn't consider blues. Heck, even Carlos
Santana (who does nothing like blues) did a duet with John Lee Hooker...not
because he's a blues player at all, but because he's honoring the fact rock was
originally borne out of blues.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Dante Rosati <danterosati@...>

ok, so how many non-black musicians were playing blues in the Delta during
its formative period? Who holds a candle to Louis Armstrong during the time
he was defining the jazz ethos with his recordings? How many non-black
musicians helped Charlie Parker, Dizzy Gillespie and Bud Powell invent
bebop? Did Vanilla Ice make any seminal contributions to the formation of
hip hop?

On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 10:50 AM, <kalleaho@...> wrote:

>
>
> Quoting "Dante Rosati" <danterosati@... <danterosati%40gmail.com>>:
>
> >>> black musicians originated every american musical style of any note,
> >>
> >> You seem to subscribe to a musical one-drop rule, think about that.
> >
> > why, how many great blues or jazz musicians were mixed race? and besides,
> > its not a racial thing, its a cultural thing. Blues came out of black
> > american culture not their genetics.
>
> You misunderstood. Musical one-drop rule would say that if there was any
> black influence in the origination of a musical style then it was
> originated
> by black musicians, simpliciter. How else could you believe that "black
> musicians originated every american musical style of any note"?
>
> Kalle
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

>"Did Vanilla Ice make any seminal contributions to the formation of hip hop?"

No, but he successfully made a hit by ripping off, oops, I mean "sampling" some
white guys (AKA "Queen") :-D

________________________________
From: Dante Rosati <danterosati@...>
To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, January 28, 2011 9:54:48 AM
Subject: Re: [MMM] More blues

On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 10:50 AM, <kalleaho@...> wrote:

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗kalleaho@...

So bluegrass, country or musical theatre (where do you think jazz standards
come from?) are not musical styles of any note?

Also, Africa Bambaataa sampled Kraftwerk in "Planet Rock".

Kalle

Quoting "Dante Rosati" <danterosati@...>:

> ok, so how many non-black musicians were playing blues in the Delta during
> its formative period? Who holds a candle to Louis Armstrong during the time
> he was defining the jazz ethos with his recordings? How many non-black
> musicians helped Charlie Parker, Dizzy Gillespie and Bud Powell invent
> bebop? Did Vanilla Ice make any seminal contributions to the formation of
> hip hop?
>
> On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 10:50 AM, <kalleaho@...> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Quoting "Dante Rosati" <danterosati@gmail.com <danterosati%40gmail.com>>:
>>
>> >>> black musicians originated every american musical style of any note,
>> >>
>> >> You seem to subscribe to a musical one-drop rule, think about that.
>> >
>> > why, how many great blues or jazz musicians were mixed race? and besides,
>> > its not a racial thing, its a cultural thing. Blues came out of black
>> > american culture not their genetics.
>>
>> You misunderstood. Musical one-drop rule would say that if there was any
>> black influence in the origination of a musical style then it was
>> originated
>> by black musicians, simpliciter. How else could you believe that "black
>> musicians originated every american musical style of any note"?
>>
>> Kalle
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

🔗chrisvaisvil@...

Blacks didn't have nearly the musical influence on americans as they did on british kids who then came to america with interpreted black music that made americans go wild crazy.

Akin to money laundering for the unfortunately racist american palate you could say.

Of course the is truth in the point that the original american rock was a marriage of country and blues. But most of the rock mentioned was influenced by european acceptance and interpretation of the original blues masters.

Chris
*

-----Original Message-----
From: Dante Rosati <danterosati@...>
Sender: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 10:39:29
To: <MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com>
Reply-To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MMM] More blues

> And I don't think black musicians had SO big influence on American music.

blinking incredulously at the screen.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Dante Rosati <danterosati@...>

bluegrass and country, like zydeco, are highly provincial. almost noone listens to that stuff north of the mason-dixon line, let alone in bangaladesh, where kids have michael jackson posters in their rooms, not hank williams.

and you answer your own question concerning showtunes when you mention "jazz standards". if these songs were not found objects for jazz musicians to transform into art, they would just be fodder for Rod Stewart.

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 28, 2011, at 11:09 AM, kalleaho@... wrote:

> So bluegrass, country or musical theatre (where do you think jazz standards
> come from?) are not musical styles of any note?
>
> Also, Africa Bambaataa sampled Kraftwerk in "Planet Rock".
>
> Kalle
>
> Quoting "Dante Rosati" <danterosati@...>:
>
> > ok, so how many non-black musicians were playing blues in the Delta during
> > its formative period? Who holds a candle to Louis Armstrong during the time
> > he was defining the jazz ethos with his recordings? How many non-black
> > musicians helped Charlie Parker, Dizzy Gillespie and Bud Powell invent
> > bebop? Did Vanilla Ice make any seminal contributions to the formation of
> > hip hop?
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 10:50 AM, <kalleaho@...> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Quoting "Dante Rosati" <danterosati@... <danterosati%40gmail.com>>:
> >>
> >> >>> black musicians originated every american musical style of any note,
> >> >>
> >> >> You seem to subscribe to a musical one-drop rule, think about that.
> >> >
> >> > why, how many great blues or jazz musicians were mixed race? and besides,
> >> > its not a racial thing, its a cultural thing. Blues came out of black
> >> > american culture not their genetics.
> >>
> >> You misunderstood. Musical one-drop rule would say that if there was any
> >> black influence in the origination of a musical style then it was
> >> originated
> >> by black musicians, simpliciter. How else could you believe that "black
> >> musicians originated every american musical style of any note"?
> >>
> >> Kalle
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗kalleaho@...

Quoting "Dante Rosati" <danterosati@...>:

> bluegrass and country, like zydeco, are highly provincial. almost
> noone listens to that stuff north of the mason-dixon line, let alone
> in bangaladesh, where kids have michael jackson posters in their
> rooms, not hank williams.

Country is an internationally well-recognized style of music and it is
actually
quite popular here in Finland, we have our own country singers and bands. My
father listens to zydeco. Bebop wasn't popular in Bangladesh either
and I doubt
it ever was more popular than country in any country. Anyway, I don't see your
point, is notability just popularity?

> and you answer your own question concerning showtunes when you
> mention "jazz standards". if these songs were not found objects for
> jazz musicians to transform into art, they would just be fodder for
> Rod Stewart.

Oh, and an artless whitey like Frank Sinatra just ruins them. :/

You have just a priori decided that if an american style is notable
then it was
wholly originated by blacks. Any white influence is not really that, it's
just "found objects".

Kalle

> On Jan 28, 2011, at 11:09 AM, kalleaho@... wrote:
>
>> So bluegrass, country or musical theatre (where do you think jazz standards
>> come from?) are not musical styles of any note?
>>
>> Also, Africa Bambaataa sampled Kraftwerk in "Planet Rock".
>>
>> Kalle
>>
>> Quoting "Dante Rosati" <danterosati@...>:
>>
>> > ok, so how many non-black musicians were playing blues in the Delta during
>> > its formative period? Who holds a candle to Louis Armstrong
>> during the time
>> > he was defining the jazz ethos with his recordings? How many non-black
>> > musicians helped Charlie Parker, Dizzy Gillespie and Bud Powell invent
>> > bebop? Did Vanilla Ice make any seminal contributions to the formation of
>> > hip hop?
>> >
>> > On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 10:50 AM, <kalleaho@...> wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Quoting "Dante Rosati" <danterosati@... <danterosati%40gmail.com>>:
>> >>
>> >> >>> black musicians originated every american musical style of any note,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> You seem to subscribe to a musical one-drop rule, think about that.
>> >> >
>> >> > why, how many great blues or jazz musicians were mixed race?
>> and besides,
>> >> > its not a racial thing, its a cultural thing. Blues came out of black
>> >> > american culture not their genetics.
>> >>
>> >> You misunderstood. Musical one-drop rule would say that if there was any
>> >> black influence in the origination of a musical style then it was
>> >> originated
>> >> by black musicians, simpliciter. How else could you believe that "black
>> >> musicians originated every american musical style of any note"?
>> >>
>> >> Kalle
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------
>> >
>> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

Dante wrote:

Please. Bebop has more in common with the trio sonata than
the 12-bar blues.

>Did Vanilla Ice make any seminal contributions to the formation of
>hip hop?

Eminem is the best rapper of all time.

The Beatles are the greatest rock band of all time.

I already mentioned Gershwin. Dave Brubeck was also extremely
influential.

Oscar Peterson, arguably the best jazz pianist of all time,
was black. The rest of his band was white.

Eldar, unarguably the best Tatum-style pianist of all time,
is from Kyrgyzstan.

Stephen Foster has been called the "father of American music".

Sousa was writing much the same music as Joplin, arguably
slightly earlier.

But these games are stupid. What's the point? Black people
were poor and musicians are poor. It was the only opportunity
they had. Of course there were more of them. They used
European instruments and their embodied music theory, as well
as some whole cloth of European music, to create blues and jazz.
Otherwise they could have been doing it in Africa.

-Carl

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗Dante Rosati <danterosati@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗richard duckworth <richduckworth@...>

This complete balderdash! Everybody knows that the greatest rapper is Sir Mixalot. The greatest rock group is either Nile, Carcass or Entombed depending on which way you swing.

Bet you guys didn't listen to Greg Koch yet...........

Rich Duckworth

Lecturer in Music Technology

Department of Music

House 5

Trinity College

Dublin 2

Ireland

Tel 353 1 896 1500

It's the most devastating moment in a young mans life, when he quite reasonably says to himself, "I shall never play The Dane!"

--- On Fri, 28/1/11, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:

From: Carl Lumma <carl@...>
Subject: Re: [MMM] More blues
To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 28 January, 2011, 18:26

Dante wrote:

>ok, so how many non-black musicians were playing blues in the Delta during

>its formative period? Who holds a candle to Louis Armstrong during the time

>he was defining the jazz ethos with his recordings? How many non-black

>musicians helped Charlie Parker, Dizzy Gillespie and Bud Powell invent

>bebop?

Please. Bebop has more in common with the trio sonata than

the 12-bar blues.

>Did Vanilla Ice make any seminal contributions to the formation of

>hip hop?

Eminem is the best rapper of all time.

The Beatles are the greatest rock band of all time.

I already mentioned Gershwin. Dave Brubeck was also extremely

influential.

Oscar Peterson, arguably the best jazz pianist of all time,

was black. The rest of his band was white.

Eldar, unarguably the best Tatum-style pianist of all time,

is from Kyrgyzstan.

Stephen Foster has been called the "father of American music".

Sousa was writing much the same music as Joplin, arguably

slightly earlier.

But these games are stupid. What's the point? Black people

were poor and musicians are poor. It was the only opportunity

they had. Of course there were more of them. They used

European instruments and their embodied music theory, as well

as some whole cloth of European music, to create blues and jazz.

Otherwise they could have been doing it in Africa.

-Carl

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Daniel Forró <dan.for@...>

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

🔗Daniel Forró <dan.for@...>

🔗Graham Breed <gbreed@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

Mike wrote:

>> Eldar, unarguably the best Tatum-style pianist of all time,
>> is from Kyrgyzstan.
>
>You're saying that Eldar is unarguably better than Tatum himself?

The term "Tatum-style" is really kind of stupid, because Tatum was
an absolutely unique artist. Nobody sounds like him. I won't
compare these two giants on a such a broad basis.

Eldar is in some important sense the most technically capable jazz
pianist of all time. Aside from Hamelin he might be the best pianist
living today. He is also showing himself to be a very deep musician,
refining his art over the years. He can play and he can write.
His compositions take inspiration both from the post-bop world of
Radiohead covers, and the older roots of standards done up with crazy
left-hand technique and sweet right-hand voicing. Personally, at the
end of the day I prefer Mehldau or Iverson because of their more
abstract and 'intellectual' style (or my personal fav of favs,
Art Lande). I've had the pleasure of seeing all of them play live,
but I got to sit right next to Eldar as he ripped on a 10' Fazioli...
that was earthshaking.

-Carl

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 1:45 AM, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
>
> Eldar is in some important sense the most technically capable jazz
> pianist of all time. Aside from Hamelin he might be the best pianist
> living today. He is also showing himself to be a very deep musician,
> refining his art over the years.

When I first got to UM, Eldar was this kid my age who was really
showy, caught up in endless amounts of little pianistic "tricks," and
generally not a very mature-sounding artist. We always respected him
because he had his chops together, and we figured that as he got older
he'd start to develop some kind of coherent artistic statement. There
weren't a lot of Eldar fans, I don't think, it was more like "keep
your eye on this guy, he's going to explode in a few years."

Then I was talking to a buddy of mine a year ago and he was telling me
about how Eldar is on an entirely different level these days, has
matured and sounds amazing, etc. I guess I need to catch up. But it's
going to really surprise me if he's more technically capable than,
say, Mehldau, who can improvise 4-part counterpoint over Martha my
Dear and such.

I tend to like keyboard players more based on what kind of interesting
stuff they can do with the harmony for some song, e.g. how well they
can play "out." I never heard Eldar doing much there.

> He can play and he can write.
> His compositions take inspiration both from the post-bop world of
> Radiohead covers, and the older roots of standards done up with crazy
> left-hand technique and sweet right-hand voicing. Personally, at the
> end of the day I prefer Mehldau or Iverson because of their more
> abstract and 'intellectual' style (or my personal fav of favs,
> Art Lande). I've had the pleasure of seeing all of them play live,
> but I got to sit right next to Eldar as he ripped on a 10' Fazioli...
> that was earthshaking.

Mehldau is awesome, Iverson I can't handle. Haven't listened to much
of Art Lande.

-Mike

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

>> >Tangentially, from a theory standpoint, you might be interested in the
>> >relationship between "oh my god wtf did he just do" substitute chord
>> >progressions and unison vectors tempered out in 12-tet.
>>
>> Yes, I've looked into that.
>
>What did you figure out? It seems to correspond sometimes but not others.

If a song has chord A followed by chord B, then I think chord C
can be substituted for B if the progression strengths of A->B and
A->C are similar.

http://lumma.org/music/theory/ProgressionStrength.txt

It's not always clear to me how to apply this to extended chords
in 12, because their JI interpretations aren't always clear.

As far as UVs... you can see that common tones are important in
my progression strength formula. UVs increase common tones, for
instance 50/49 in the case of tritone substitution (it's impossible
in JI for two 4:5:6:7 chords to share a common dyad).

>> >He's lame. I used to hate the Bad Plus, now I kind of like them, but I
>> >still really hate them.
>>
>> OMFG
>
>It's true. I only like physical cities and that's it.

Their first two albums are insanely great. Suspicious Activity
began their later phase, which isn't nearly as deep. Still, the
Empire Strikes Backward really gets me going. Prog is their
weakest by far and I don't like any of the cuts on it very much.
And I suspect it is basically their last album. Iverson's
Violet Caverns (with Mark Morris) is my favorite dancey thing
ever, by a mile.

-Carl

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 9:52 PM, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
>
> If a song has chord A followed by chord B, then I think chord C
> can be substituted for B if the progression strengths of A->B and
> A->C are similar.
>
> http://lumma.org/music/theory/ProgressionStrength.txt

This looks awesome. I'm going to respond more later on tuning.

> >It's true. I only like physical cities and that's it.
>
> Their first two albums are insanely great. Suspicious Activity
> began their later phase, which isn't nearly as deep. Still, the
> Empire Strikes Backward really gets me going. Prog is their
> weakest by far and I don't like any of the cuts on it very much.
> And I suspect it is basically their last album. Iverson's
> Violet Caverns (with Mark Morris) is my favorite dancey thing
> ever, by a mile.

All I know of them are a few songs which are decent, like Physical
Cities, and a bunch of covers of grunge bands that some of my friends
liked because they were too elitist to actually like Nirvana directly,
and which to be honest didn't do it much for me. Maybe I'll check out
their earlier stuff and see how that goes.

-Mike

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

Mike wrote:
>All I know of them are a few songs which are decent, like Physical
>Cities, and a bunch of covers of grunge bands that some of my friends
>liked because they were too elitist to actually like Nirvana directly,
>and which to be honest didn't do it much for me. Maybe I'll check out
>their earlier stuff and see how that goes.

Their covers are fun. They got a great acoustic sound, thanks in
part to legendary producer Tchad Blake. It's their originals that
I consider deep. Get These Are the Vistas and Give straight away

http://www.amazon.com/These-Are-Vistas-Bad-Plus/dp/B000087N0V/

http://www.amazon.com/Give-Bad-Plus/dp/B0001AP0PY/

and get the track Empire Strikes Backwards
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0013ATPKM/
Oh carp- I guess they don't sell it separately.

I wrote:
>> Prog is their
>> weakest by far and I don't like any of the cuts on it very much.
>> And I suspect it is basically their last album.

Looks like I was wrong about that. Boy am I salty
http://www.amazon.com/Never-Stop-Bad-Plus/dp/B003W5QIZ6
Now to see if it's any good. After prog they did For All I Care,
which was all covers and really disappointing. This is all
originals.

-Carl

🔗Daniel Forró <dan.for@...>

Maybe I don't understand what's the point in your article. What do
you mean by progression strength? How can you measure it without
musical context?

In my opinion there's nothing like exactly measurable absolute
progression strength. It would be very bad for music as an art if
this is truth. It always depends on melodic-harmonic context in the
music work. E7 chord has different role and feeling in C major, when
the following chord is C, G, Bb, F, Ab, Db, Dmi, Fmi, Ami, Bmi... If
we want to use "proper" chord substitutions, we have to consider
harmonic functions of chords and use a chord from the same functional
group. Which is rather limited in diatonic functional harmony.

But when we harmonize melody (for example traditional jazz standard)
we can reharmonize it with quite unusual and surprising
substitutions. Not only done by chromatic chords (from another keys)
but also more complex chords of second, triadic or quartal structure
(or their combinations). Such allienization will change whole
context, can reverse original tension-relax relations, and in
connection with density of chord changes in bar can go very far from
original.

Daniel Forro

On 30 Jan 2011, at 11:52 AM, Carl Lumma wrote:
>
> If a song has chord A followed by chord B, then I think chord C
> can be substituted for B if the progression strengths of A->B and
> A->C are similar.
>
> http://lumma.org/music/theory/ProgressionStrength.txt
>
> It's not always clear to me how to apply this to extended chords
> in 12, because their JI interpretations aren't always clear.
>
> As far as UVs... you can see that common tones are important in
> my progression strength formula. UVs increase common tones, for
> instance 50/49 in the case of tritone substitution (it's impossible
> in JI for two 4:5:6:7 chords to share a common dyad).

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

Daniel wrote:

>Maybe I don't understand what's the point in your article. What do
>you mean by progression strength? How can you measure it without
>musical context?

There are psychophysical absolutes in music. We can deal with
them apart from musical context.

>In my opinion there's nothing like exactly measurable absolute
>progression strength. It would be very bad for music as an art if
>this is truth.

Obviously this doesn't try to say everything about a progression.

>It always depends on melodic-harmonic context in the
>music work.

In the unwritten FAQ of the tuning list, such things are assumed
from the start. There is no need to point them out every time
someone posts a bit of tuning theory.

>E7 chord has different role and feeling in C major, when
>the following chord is C, G, Bb, F, Ab, Db, Dmi, Fmi, Ami, Bmi...

Terms such as these are not absolutes either. They are part of
the 12-ET world - only one possible musical universe. So we can't
fall back on them when talking about progressions either. That's
why the proposal I posted works in any tuning system that
approximates just intonation.

-Carl

🔗Daniel Forró <dan.for@...>

OK, thanks for explanation.

On 30 Jan 2011, at 2:32 PM, Carl Lumma wrote:

> Daniel wrote:
>
>> Maybe I don't understand what's the point in your article. What do
>> you mean by progression strength? How can you measure it without
>> musical context?
>
> There are psychophysical absolutes in music. We can deal with
> them apart from musical context.
>
>> In my opinion there's nothing like exactly measurable absolute
>> progression strength. It would be very bad for music as an art if
>> this is truth.
>
> Obviously this doesn't try to say everything about a progression.
>
>> It always depends on melodic-harmonic context in the
>> music work.
>
> In the unwritten FAQ of the tuning list, such things are assumed
> from the start. There is no need to point them out every time
> someone posts a bit of tuning theory.
>
>> E7 chord has different role and feeling in C major, when
>> the following chord is C, G, Bb, F, Ab, Db, Dmi, Fmi, Ami, Bmi...
>
> Terms such as these are not absolutes either. They are part of
> the 12-ET world - only one possible musical universe. So we can't
> fall back on them when talking about progressions either. That's
> why the proposal I posted works in any tuning system that
> approximates just intonation.
>
> -Carl

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 12:32 AM, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
>
> >Maybe I don't understand what's the point in your article. What do
> >you mean by progression strength? How can you measure it without
> >musical context?
>
> There are psychophysical absolutes in music. We can deal with
> them apart from musical context.

The work you're doing with chord progressions is, in a sense, a way of
turning musical context into another psychophysical absolute. Or at
least it's a step in that direction.

> >It always depends on melodic-harmonic context in the
> >music work.
>
> In the unwritten FAQ of the tuning list, such things are assumed
> from the start. There is no need to point them out every time
> someone posts a bit of tuning theory.

You could probably take what you're doing with chord progressions and
generalize it into what a "harmonic context" means anyway. All of the
modal stuff that I always talk about is a half-assed way to do that,
and it explains why sometimes major chords sound "happy" in some
contexts and why they sound "sad" in others. I've often wondered how
we could expand this outside of the 12-tet based structure and I think
what you're doing is a step in the right direction.

-Mike

🔗Neil Haverstick <microstick@...>

🔗Dante Rosati <danterosati@...>

I like to think of how Hendrix and Stockhausen were both doing some
interesting exploration of amplified sound and feedback at around the same
time.

On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 5:39 PM, Neil Haverstick <microstick@...> wrote:

>
>
>
> Well...betcha most classical musicians cannot play blues...and whether or
> not one likes it or not is not the point. It's much much more than a
> pentatonic scale, and it's much much more than guitar playing. And whether
> or not one thinks it's on the level of Stravinsky or not is a matter of
> opinion...I think blues is one of the most profound expressions in the
> history of music. In fact, Larry Coryell has been quoted as saying Hendrix
> was on the level of Stravinsky or Berg...which he in fact was.
> This is not a subject that can be proved or disproved, of course. Howlin
> Wolf sends chills up my back after 40 years; and The Firebird is one of my
> favorite pieces of music (I have listened to much classical music, and have
> played classical guitar for 35 years). But...point is...if you think blues
> is easy, nonsense, and you don't have a clue as to what the deep blues is
> all about...pretty simple...best from sunny Denver...Stickman
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

Neil,

On facebook you constantly talk about how people should be tolerant and nice
to each other. Here I feel that you are trying your best to insinuate I am
an ignorant person instead of being tolerant of what you perceive my opinion
of the blues to be. And, judging from this post and the email you sent me
you seem to be very intolerant of any musical opinion that is *possibly*
different from your own. Wow, I'm blown away. Besides recognizing this fact
I'm at a loss for words.

Chris

On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 5:39 PM, Neil Haverstick <microstick@...> wrote:

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>

What the blues *is* and what the blues *can be* at its best are two different things. The fact is today most blues is watered-down "blues rock", slick macho suburban bar-band drivel that has nothing to do with what the blues used to be/can be...patterned more after George Thorogood than any of the old greats like Muddy Waters, Robert Johnson, Howlin' Wolf, etc. At least out here in the San Francisco Bay Area, the blues is about the cleanest/yuppiest style of music you can find--any time you go to a big outdoor festival, there's ALWAYS some kinda slick yuppie blues band playing the same ol' shit, all polished up neat and slick. Every single one of them plays "Mustang Sally". No matter what the blues used to be, or can be at its best, what it *is* these days--on the stages, in the bars, wherever--is crap. For every one decent blues musician out there who really feels and breathes the stuff, there's 400 wankers just out to cash in on the local food and art festival circuits. So the yuppies can have something to "boogie" to between wine-tastings. Hate to say it, but that's the same vibe I get from Catler's band. Microtonal it may be, but cutting edge it ain't. "Willie McBlind"? Crikey, can he be more cliche?

And never mind all the shred guys out there who do token "blues" tunes on every album, that shit's even worse! Joe Satriani plays the blues...yeah right!

Neil, I'm sad to say it, but the blues has been knocked off, robbed, sissified, watered-down, kicked around, and smoothed-over so many times that the original article is in gone. To the people of my generation--born in the '80s or early '90s--there just ain't nothing left of it but cliche. And sadly that makes even the good stuff hard to appreciate.

-Igs

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Neil Haverstick <microstick@...> wrote:
>
>
> Well...betcha most classical musicians cannot play blues...and whether or not one likes it or not is not the point. It's much much more than a pentatonic scale, and it's much much more than guitar playing. And whether or not one thinks it's on the level of Stravinsky or not is a matter of opinion...I think blues is one of the most profound expressions in the history of music. In fact, Larry Coryell has been quoted as saying Hendrix was on the level of Stravinsky or Berg...which he in fact was.
> This is not a subject that can be proved or disproved, of course. Howlin Wolf sends chills up my back after 40 years; and The Firebird is one of my favorite pieces of music (I have listened to much classical music, and have played classical guitar for 35 years). But...point is...if you think blues is easy, nonsense, and you don't have a clue as to what the deep blues is all about...pretty simple...best from sunny Denver...Stickman
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

🔗Dante Rosati <danterosati@...>

i dunno about this line of reasoning: most of anything is shit, or at least
mediocre. that in itself is neither here nor there. the blues is the bedrock
foundation of so many styles of music that its ubiquity makes it practically
invisible. Its like Hendrix again: everybody has played like him ever since,
so its hard to realize how unique he was at the time. Every style of
american music has the blues in it, so its possible to take it for granted.

having said that, there are some kinds of music that are, in their authentic
versions, so tied to a particular ethnic group, or a particular time and
place, that anyone or anything that does not belong to this group, time or
place is just gonna be a pale imitation. Eric Clapton plays the blues? yeah,
right. how many crackers really play the blues? theres Johnny Winter for
sure, Duane Allman. then theres.....

how many authentic american flamenco guitarists are there? 0

some music becomes more inclusive: there are alot more authentic white jazz
musicians, even though 95% of the real stuff was at least initiated by
brothers.

Beethoven is so remote now that all bets are off and the halls of Juilliard
teem with Koreans and Chinese who play that stuff just as good as any german
now.

but blues as an authentic expression only happened in the delta chicago and
a few other places early in the 20th c and then settled down into a style
that could be produced and reproduced by anyone who at least came from a
similar culture. bb king and all the other kings for example. but a white
boy from the suburbs? sure he can copy the licks, like Stevie Ray and
multitudes of others, but that aint it.

but as a musical influence, blues is everywhere. i always tell students when
i teach them the 12 bar blues and the minor pentatonic that they can go
anywhere in the world, Tokyo whatever, and jam with other musicians just
knowing this one thing. It really is the lingua franca now, if there is one
at all.

On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 8:19 PM, cityoftheasleep <igliashon@sbcglobal.net>wrote:

>
>
> What the blues *is* and what the blues *can be* at its best are two
> different things. The fact is today most blues is watered-down "blues rock",
> slick macho suburban bar-band drivel that has nothing to do with what the
> blues used to be/can be...patterned more after George Thorogood than any of
> the old greats like Muddy Waters, Robert Johnson, Howlin' Wolf, etc. At
> least out here in the San Francisco Bay Area, the blues is about the
> cleanest/yuppiest style of music you can find--any time you go to a big
> outdoor festival, there's ALWAYS some kinda slick yuppie blues band playing
> the same ol' shit, all polished up neat and slick. Every single one of them
> plays "Mustang Sally". No matter what the blues used to be, or can be at its
> best, what it *is* these days--on the stages, in the bars, wherever--is
> crap. For every one decent blues musician out there who really feels and
> breathes the stuff, there's 400 wankers just out to cash in on the local
> food and art festival circuits. So the yuppies can have something to
> "boogie" to between wine-tastings. Hate to say it, but that's the same vibe
> I get from Catler's band. Microtonal it may be, but cutting edge it ain't.
> "Willie McBlind"? Crikey, can he be more cliche?
>
> And never mind all the shred guys out there who do token "blues" tunes on
> every album, that shit's even worse! Joe Satriani plays the blues...yeah
> right!
>
> Neil, I'm sad to say it, but the blues has been knocked off, robbed,
> sissified, watered-down, kicked around, and smoothed-over so many times that
> the original article is in gone. To the people of my generation--born in the
> '80s or early '90s--there just ain't nothing left of it but cliche. And
> sadly that makes even the good stuff hard to appreciate.
>
> -Igs
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Neil Haverstick <microstick@...>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Well...betcha most classical musicians cannot play blues...and whether or
> not one likes it or not is not the point. It's much much more than a
> pentatonic scale, and it's much much more than guitar playing. And whether
> or not one thinks it's on the level of Stravinsky or not is a matter of
> opinion...I think blues is one of the most profound expressions in the
> history of music. In fact, Larry Coryell has been quoted as saying Hendrix
> was on the level of Stravinsky or Berg...which he in fact was.
> > This is not a subject that can be proved or disproved, of course. Howlin
> Wolf sends chills up my back after 40 years; and The Firebird is one of my
> favorite pieces of music (I have listened to much classical music, and have
> played classical guitar for 35 years). But...point is...if you think blues
> is easy, nonsense, and you don't have a clue as to what the deep blues is
> all about...pretty simple...best from sunny Denver...Stickman
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

Igs>"Joe Satriani plays the blues...yeah right!"

Funny thing...I'm a huge Satriani fan but even I agree: Satch is no patron of the blues. People completely unrelated to blues who play rock realize rock was originally born of blues often make a blues song just because they feel if they don't...they are hypocrits. Dare I say it, whenever someone like Neil seems to claim everything is "born of blues"...yet another guitarist feels obliged to do a blues tribute...even if they don't really "feel" blues. Same goes, dare I say it, with Steve Vai...an excellent guitarist in his own right but not one with a heart and soul feel for the blues.

>"The fact is today most blues is watered-down "blues rock", slick macho
suburban bar-band drivel that has nothing to do with what the blues used
to be/can be...patterned more after George Thorogood than any of the
old greats like Muddy Waters, Robert Johnson, Howlin' Wolf, etc"

Exactly. Real blues was made by people way back working through real tough times playing their hearts out...and you could tell. Even Steve Ray Vaughn, though an excellent guitarist, you could argue was not an authentic blues player, for example, often putting in flash and compositional tricks to substitute for authenticity in feel. Blues, IMVHO, was a very strong era for music, but is now an era come and gone.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]