Blues/Rob Johnson

Carl...was just listening to Johnson the last couple of days...have semi adapted his "Preachin' Blues" as an oud piece, we'll see how it turns out. As far as the blues beginning/ending with him...I would assume from that statement that you are not a blues afficionado...besides Robert, there are T Bone Walker, Johnny Otis, Esther Phillips, Jimi Hendrix, Charlie Patton, Muddy, Wolf, BB, Albert and Freddie King, John Lee Hooker, Bessie Smith, Eric Clapton, Blind Blake, Blind Lemon Jefferson, Blind Wille Johnson (and McTell), Bonnie Raitt, Count Basie, Cleanhead Vinson, Son House, Skip James, Charlie Parker (inventor of several blues forms), Stevie Ray Vaughan, Elmore James, Miles Davis, George Benson, Wes Montgomery, Kenny Burrell, Billie Holiday, Mississippi John Hurt, Roosevelt Sykes, John Hammond Jr, Ma Rainey, John Mayall, Duane Allman, Big Bill Broonzy, Buddy Guy, Willie Dixon, Earl Hooker, Robert Jr Lockwood, Sonny Boy Williamson, Little Walter, James Cotton, Otis Spann, Bob Lohr, Johnny Winter, Jimmie Smith, Bobby Bland, Albert Collins, Joe Houston, Jimmie Vaughan, Jimmy Reed, Little Milton, and so many more I could be here all day.

I have studied and copped ideas from many of those mentioned above. Blues, although a relatively young art form, is as deep as any music ever played in any culture in any time period. And it is indeed American, but with far reaching roots that extend to Africa and Islamic music...and microtonal as all getout. Where it goes in the future is wide open...but using other tunings to compose with is a very fruitful avenue...there's a lot yet to be done with this most beautiful of forms...best...Hstick www.microstick.net

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At 10:01 AM 1/26/2011, you wrote:
>
> Carl...was just listening to Johnson the last couple of days...have
>semi adapted his "Preachin' Blues" as an oud piece, we'll see how it
>turns out.

Hi Neil- this sounds like an excellent idea!

>As far as the blues beginning/ending with him...I would
>assume from that statement that you are not a blues
>afficionado...

That's very true, I know very little about it.

>besides Robert, there are T Bone Walker, Johnny Otis,
>Esther Phillips, Jimi Hendrix, Charlie Patton, Muddy, Wolf, BB, Albert
>and Freddie King, John Lee Hooker, Bessie Smith, Eric Clapton, Blind
>Blake, Blind Lemon Jefferson, Blind Wille Johnson (and McTell), Bonnie
>Raitt, Count Basie, Cleanhead Vinson, Son House, Skip James, Charlie
>Parker (inventor of several blues forms), Stevie Ray Vaughan, Elmore
>James, Miles Davis, George Benson, Wes Montgomery, Kenny Burrell,
>Billie Holiday, Mississippi John Hurt, Roosevelt Sykes, John Hammond
>Jr, Ma Rainey, John Mayall, Duane Allman, Big Bill Broonzy, Buddy Guy,
>Willie Dixon, Earl Hooker, Robert Jr Lockwood, Sonny Boy Williamson,
>Little Walter, James Cotton, Otis Spann, Bob Lohr, Johnny Winter,
>Jimmie Smith, Bobby Bland, Albert Collins, Joe Houston, Jimmie Vaughan,
>Jimmy Reed, Little Milton, and so many more I could be here all day.

I don't think of Hendrix, Basie, Miles, or Charlie Parker as blues
artists but I guess there's no hard line. I do think of early Dylan
as blues. Well, there's no point arguing about it. I just meant
that there seems to be a big jump between Delta and later styles.
Delta blues feels like a natural phenomenon, like an indigenous
traditional form. The offshoots seem more... I don't know how to
put it into words. What's the spark that I hear in traditional music
the world over, which is missing in Westernized forms? Not a bad
thing... but I guess once you polish something, you give something
up for the shine.

-Carl

>"I have studied and copped ideas from many of those mentioned above. Blues,
>although a relatively young art form, is as deep as any music ever played in
>any culture in any time period."

From what (little?) I know about blues, the use of microtonality is by and
large limited to melody and not harmony. Don't get me wrong...I think the whole
African-derived blues idea using neutral 7ths and 3rds to branch between major
and minor key feel is a splendid idea...I just don't hear many musicians
actually doing that. I'm afraid...I see how it has deep roots...but hear very
few of those roots being used to do anything more than essentially copy the
first blues songs (which is why I can understand the statement about blues
starting and stopping with its first founder, Robert Johnson) and doing
different types of "remixes" of that concept, adding things like solos and such.

My favorite blues musicians IE BB King, Jimi Hendrix and Stevie Ray Vaughn
all have a thing for using those "neutral" bends in solos...with BB doing the
subtle soulful artsy stuff with slow bends in just the right-timed places...and
Jimi and Stevie pouring on the flashy solos. But, to me, interpretation of
those solos as counterpoint and not just a bunch of neighboring tones is one of
the few things truly fresh sounding to me about blues...and even then it seems
like any micro-tonality is often used as a supplemental effect (kind of the way
using a wah pedal and palm-muting for a funk-guitar sound is) than a harmonic
foundation.

What is harmonic foundation, sadly, seems to be largely limited to the
standard blues chord progression and to a certain extent, "soaring" vocals
(timbre-wise) which by and large just echo the chords...making it seem often
more like showmanship and skill in performance...than creative songwriting. It
gets its reputation as being "grumpy old man folk music" because, minus the
solos and exotic bends in them, a whole lot of it is just a guy strumming chords
on his guitar and singing largely by himself...the foundation seems very very
folk-music-esque. It seems largely a performer's artform.

>"And it is indeed American, but with far reaching roots that extend to Africa
>and Islamic music"

IMVHO, that's the part of it often least stressed...and also the part with
the most potential. Those neutral tones are considered very significant in
Islamic and African music and, to me, represent an emotion/tone-class between
major and minor missing from American music that's ultimately just as strong and
listenable as any other in the right contexts....it's microtonal without
sounding "weird" to the American ear.

But how many blues artists actually extend this practice to how they write
songs/chords beyond using the trick in portions of their guitar solos? Neil,
I'm sure you do but...who else?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To me, if the reference scale isn't exotic, pitch bending by itself doesn't make something microtonal..but that's just my, perhaps somewhat stricter, definition.
I think Jimmy Page deserves mention as a blues influenced artist.

I'd be much more intrigued by the blues if it left many of its cliches behind--in particular certain cheezy licks and the rather tired classic chord progression of 12 bars.

AKJ

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:
>
> >"I have studied and copped ideas from many of those mentioned above. Blues,
> >although a relatively young art form, is as deep as any music ever played in
> >any culture in any time period."
>
> From what (little?) I know about blues, the use of microtonality is by and
> large limited to melody and not harmony. Don't get me wrong...I think the whole
> African-derived blues idea using neutral 7ths and 3rds to branch between major
> and minor key feel is a splendid idea...I just don't hear many musicians
> actually doing that. I'm afraid...I see how it has deep roots...but hear very
> few of those roots being used to do anything more than essentially copy the
> first blues songs (which is why I can understand the statement about blues
> starting and stopping with its first founder, Robert Johnson) and doing
> different types of "remixes" of that concept, adding things like solos and such.
>
>
> My favorite blues musicians IE BB King, Jimi Hendrix and Stevie Ray Vaughn
> all have a thing for using those "neutral" bends in solos...with BB doing the
> subtle soulful artsy stuff with slow bends in just the right-timed places...and
> Jimi and Stevie pouring on the flashy solos. But, to me, interpretation of
> those solos as counterpoint and not just a bunch of neighboring tones is one of
> the few things truly fresh sounding to me about blues...and even then it seems
> like any micro-tonality is often used as a supplemental effect (kind of the way
> using a wah pedal and palm-muting for a funk-guitar sound is) than a harmonic
> foundation.
>
> What is harmonic foundation, sadly, seems to be largely limited to the
> standard blues chord progression and to a certain extent, "soaring" vocals
> (timbre-wise) which by and large just echo the chords...making it seem often
> more like showmanship and skill in performance...than creative songwriting. It
> gets its reputation as being "grumpy old man folk music" because, minus the
> solos and exotic bends in them, a whole lot of it is just a guy strumming chords
> on his guitar and singing largely by himself...the foundation seems very very
> folk-music-esque. It seems largely a performer's artform.
>
>
> >"And it is indeed American, but with far reaching roots that extend to Africa
> >and Islamic music"
>
> IMVHO, that's the part of it often least stressed...and also the part with
> the most potential. Those neutral tones are considered very significant in
> Islamic and African music and, to me, represent an emotion/tone-class between
> major and minor missing from American music that's ultimately just as strong and
> listenable as any other in the right contexts....it's microtonal without
> sounding "weird" to the American ear.
>
> But how many blues artists actually extend this practice to how they write
> songs/chords beyond using the trick in portions of their guitar solos? Neil,
> I'm sure you do but...who else?
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Check out Greg Koch's 'Your Blues (Give Me The Blues) on Radio Free Gristle. Kind of a musical summary of the republic of good blues/bad blues. 

Rich Duckworth

Lecturer in Music Technology

Department of Music

House 5

Trinity College

Dublin 2

Ireland

Tel 353 1 896 1500

It's the most devastating moment in a young mans life, when he quite reasonably says to himself, "I shall never play The Dane!"

--- On Wed, 26/1/11, akjmicro <aaron@...> wrote:

From: akjmicro <aaron@...>
Subject: Re: [MMM] Blues/Rob Johnson
To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 26 January, 2011, 19:26

To me, if the reference scale isn't exotic, pitch bending by itself doesn't make something microtonal..but that's just my, perhaps somewhat stricter, definition.

I think Jimmy Page deserves mention as a blues influenced artist.

I'd be much more intrigued by the blues if it left many of its cliches behind--in particular certain cheezy licks and the rather tired classic chord progression of 12 bars.

AKJ

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:

>

> >"I have studied and copped ideas from many of those mentioned above. Blues,

> >although a relatively young art form, is as deep as any music ever played in

> >any culture in any time period."

>

> From what (little?) I know about blues, the use of microtonality is by and

> large limited to melody and not harmony. Don't get me wrong...I think the whole

> African-derived blues idea using neutral 7ths and 3rds to branch between major

> and minor key feel is a splendid idea...I just don't hear many musicians

> actually doing that. I'm afraid...I see how it has deep roots...but hear very

> few of those roots being used to do anything more than essentially copy the

> first blues songs (which is why I can understand the statement about blues

> starting and stopping with its first founder, Robert Johnson) and doing

> different types of "remixes" of that concept, adding things like solos and such.

>

>

> My favorite blues musicians IE BB King, Jimi Hendrix and Stevie Ray Vaughn

> all have a thing for using those "neutral" bends in solos...with BB doing the

> subtle soulful artsy stuff with slow bends in just the right-timed places...and

> Jimi and Stevie pouring on the flashy solos. But, to me, interpretation of

> those solos as counterpoint and not just a bunch of neighboring tones is one of

> the few things truly fresh sounding to me about blues...and even then it seems

> like any micro-tonality is often used as a supplemental effect (kind of the way

> using a wah pedal and palm-muting for a funk-guitar sound is) than a harmonic

> foundation.

>

> What is harmonic foundation, sadly, seems to be largely limited to the

> standard blues chord progression and to a certain extent, "soaring" vocals

> (timbre-wise) which by and large just echo the chords...making it seem often

> more like showmanship and skill in performance...than creative songwriting. It

> gets its reputation as being "grumpy old man folk music" because, minus the

> solos and exotic bends in them, a whole lot of it is just a guy strumming chords

> on his guitar and singing largely by himself...the foundation seems very very

> folk-music-esque. It seems largely a performer's artform.

>

>

> >"And it is indeed American, but with far reaching roots that extend to Africa

> >and Islamic music"

>

> IMVHO, that's the part of it often least stressed...and also the part with

> the most potential. Those neutral tones are considered very significant in

> Islamic and African music and, to me, represent an emotion/tone-class between

> major and minor missing from American music that's ultimately just as strong and

> listenable as any other in the right contexts....it's microtonal without

> sounding "weird" to the American ear.

>

> But how many blues artists actually extend this practice to how they write

> songs/chords beyond using the trick in portions of their guitar solos? Neil,

> I'm sure you do but...who else?

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

akjmicro <aaron@...>:

> To me, if the reference scale isn't exotic, pitch bending by itself > doesn't make something microtonal..but that's just my, perhaps > somewhat stricter, definition.
> I think Jimmy Page deserves mention as a blues influenced artist.
>
> I'd be much more intrigued by the blues if it left many of its > cliches behind--in particular certain cheezy licks and the rather > tired classic chord progression of 12 bars.

Yep, I tend to like blues influences in rock but I hate the 12-bar
blues! It's like hearing the same song over and over again just with
a different name and slightly different lyrics.

Kalle

Aaron- Otis Spann playing blues on piano can be pretty awesome at times,
especially when he was shitfaced.

On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 2:26 PM, akjmicro <aaron@...> wrote:

>
>
> To me, if the reference scale isn't exotic, pitch bending by itself doesn't
> make something microtonal..but that's just my, perhaps somewhat stricter,
> definition.
> I think Jimmy Page deserves mention as a blues influenced artist.
>
> I'd be much more intrigued by the blues if it left many of its cliches
> behind--in particular certain cheezy licks and the rather tired classic
> chord progression of 12 bars.
>
> AKJ
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com <MakeMicroMusic%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:
> >
> > >"I have studied and copped ideas from many of those mentioned above.
> Blues,
> > >although a relatively young art form, is as deep as any music ever
> played in
> > >any culture in any time period."
> >
> > From what (little?) I know about blues, the use of microtonality is by
> and
> > large limited to melody and not harmony. Don't get me wrong...I think the
> whole
> > African-derived blues idea using neutral 7ths and 3rds to branch between
> major
> > and minor key feel is a splendid idea...I just don't hear many musicians
> > actually doing that. I'm afraid...I see how it has deep roots...but hear
> very
> > few of those roots being used to do anything more than essentially copy
> the
> > first blues songs (which is why I can understand the statement about
> blues
> > starting and stopping with its first founder, Robert Johnson) and doing
> > different types of "remixes" of that concept, adding things like solos
> and such.
> >
> >
> > My favorite blues musicians IE BB King, Jimi Hendrix and Stevie Ray
> Vaughn
> > all have a thing for using those "neutral" bends in solos...with BB doing
> the
> > subtle soulful artsy stuff with slow bends in just the right-timed
> places...and
> > Jimi and Stevie pouring on the flashy solos. But, to me, interpretation
> of
> > those solos as counterpoint and not just a bunch of neighboring tones is
> one of
> > the few things truly fresh sounding to me about blues...and even then it
> seems
> > like any micro-tonality is often used as a supplemental effect (kind of
> the way
> > using a wah pedal and palm-muting for a funk-guitar sound is) than a
> harmonic
> > foundation.
> >
> > What is harmonic foundation, sadly, seems to be largely limited to the
> > standard blues chord progression and to a certain extent, "soaring"
> vocals
> > (timbre-wise) which by and large just echo the chords...making it seem
> often
> > more like showmanship and skill in performance...than creative
> songwriting. It
> > gets its reputation as being "grumpy old man folk music" because, minus
> the
> > solos and exotic bends in them, a whole lot of it is just a guy strumming
> chords
> > on his guitar and singing largely by himself...the foundation seems very
> very
> > folk-music-esque. It seems largely a performer's artform.
> >
> >
> > >"And it is indeed American, but with far reaching roots that extend to
> Africa
> > >and Islamic music"
> >
> > IMVHO, that's the part of it often least stressed...and also the part
> with
> > the most potential. Those neutral tones are considered very significant
> in
> > Islamic and African music and, to me, represent an emotion/tone-class
> between
> > major and minor missing from American music that's ultimately just as
> strong and
> > listenable as any other in the right contexts....it's microtonal without
> > sounding "weird" to the American ear.
> >
> > But how many blues artists actually extend this practice to how they
> write
> > songs/chords beyond using the trick in portions of their guitar solos?
> Neil,
> > I'm sure you do but...who else?
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

try Buddy Guy's album Sweet Tea.
For at senior citizen he can lay down some mean guitar that breaks the molds
you all are talking about.
Speaking of which - haven't any of you heard of Muddy Waters?

There is a lot more to blues than the 12 bar cliche riff (which is in tons
of early rock too) that is being complained about.

Chris

On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 3:09 PM, <kalleaho@...> wrote:

>
>
> akjmicro <aaron@... <aaron%40akjmusic.com>>:
>
>
> > To me, if the reference scale isn't exotic, pitch bending by itself
> > doesn't make something microtonal..but that's just my, perhaps
> > somewhat stricter, definition.
> > I think Jimmy Page deserves mention as a blues influenced artist.
> >
> > I'd be much more intrigued by the blues if it left many of its
> > cliches behind--in particular certain cheezy licks and the rather
> > tired classic chord progression of 12 bars.
>
> Yep, I tend to like blues influences in rock but I hate the 12-bar
> blues! It's like hearing the same song over and over again just with
> a different name and slightly different lyrics.
>
> Kalle
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 1:26 PM, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
>
> I don't think of Hendrix, Basie, Miles, or Charlie Parker as blues
> artists but I guess there's no hard line.

They're definitely not blues, but the point of my original email was
that the novel musical innovation of the blues was to use higher-limit
harmonies in a "tonal" context, which is something Debussy and the
French school had only explored more in a "modal" context. Jazz took
the approach of blending this with traditional meantone tonality, as
well as exploring some novel musical territory. Hendrix, on the other
hand, could not get enough of the 96/95 unison vector. That is,
assuming that C,,,-C,,-C,-C-E-Bb-Eb in 12-tet is in the field of
attraction for 1:2:4:8:10:14:19, which seems like a reasonable guess
to me.

Whether this characteristic is enough of a genre-defining
characteristic to still keep calling music using these harmonic
features "the blues" is a very valid debate, but not what I was
originally getting at.

Lots of people also took influences from "the blues," one of which is
that they started exploring whatever limited glimpse into higher-limit
harmonies that 12-tet afforded them, and in a functional and tonal
context. I've often wondered if there's a way to generalize what the
blues is doing, in a similar way that the blues extended 5-limit
tonality, for 11-limit and 13-limit harmonies.

-Mike

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:

> Hendrix, on the other
> hand, could not get enough of the 96/95 unison vector. That is,
> assuming that C,,,-C,,-C,-C-E-Bb-Eb in 12-tet is in the field of
> attraction for 1:2:4:8:10:14:19, which seems like a reasonable guess
> to me.

The hendrixma? The jimi? Anyway, a natural addition to 1/6 meantone.

On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 7:47 PM, genewardsmith
<genewardsmith@...> wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:
>
> > Hendrix, on the other
> > hand, could not get enough of the 96/95 unison vector. That is,
> > assuming that C,,,-C,,-C,-C-E-Bb-Eb in 12-tet is in the field of
> > attraction for 1:2:4:8:10:14:19, which seems like a reasonable guess
> > to me.
>
> The hendrixma? The jimi? Anyway, a natural addition to 1/6 meantone.

The jimisma? The jimma? (The rza, the gza, the ghostface killa?)

-Mike