Contest posts

No biggie, just some thoughts...I think contests are ok overall, and perhaps folks here are worrying a bit too much about results/judges, whatever. I won the Guitar Player Mag Ultimate Guitar Competition (Experimental Category) in 1992 (with a 19 tone piece)...for the 4 years previously I entered and received honorable mentions 3 times (which still got your name in the mag, nice press)...ah, but the year I won was the first year they had multiple categories; before that all entries were judged together. I doubt I would have ever won, but the addition of Experimental as a slot was a big help indeed. I won $5000 worth of gear, and they put out a cassette (remember those?) with all the winners on it...great press indeed, and many folks were exposed to 19 tone ideas who had doubtless never heard of it before. When I entered, I knew well that the editors of GP were the judges, and whatever they liked would win...simple, no muss or fuss.

Also won a Composition Fellowship in Denver in 1999...again, nice $$$ and real good press...and it too was for microtonal music, my "Acoustic Stick" CD (19 and 34 tone music)...and, as with GP, I knew the folks at the Arts Council were the judges, and whatever they liked would win...no surprise there. If I was judging a contest, what I thought was the best entry would win...which may be different from what someone else thinks should win, and what can you do about that? I could only try and be fair...but my concepts of music would ultimately figure in greatly.

The talk of a micro community is interesting...the online forums are wonderful (bickering aside)...but, I kind of see the whole world as a potential community. In fact, I just had an old friend (now in N Calif) tell me he put a fretless neck on a guitar because of my example...and I correspond with folks all over the planet who are getting interested in exploring other tunings; I'm always sending out books and CD's. The internet is a great way to reach folks...but playing gigs around the world is also good, as is getting CD reviews in well known mags. John Schneider has had a radio show in LA for many years, and he was just at a guitar convention in NY which got his pic (and a mention of his guitars) in Classical Guitar mag. Jon Catler's latest micro blues disc got 4 stars in Downbeat (not so easy), and that writer is very micro friendly. Dave Fiuczynski teaches a micro class at Berkleee, and also plays with Jack Dejohnette, as well as many others in the NY jazz scene. There's also an unfretted guitar forum (www.unfretted.com) that's very micro friendly, and a guy named Willem (damn, last name is gone from my old mind) in The Hague that is putting on a yearly fretless guitar fest, he's also very micro friendly. Ed Powell plays fretless guitar, a combination of Indian/Mid East sounds, and just did a seminar in the Czech Republic. And of course, Reinhard has had a long running micro fest in NY, as well as putting out high quality CD's.

While staying at Rahim Alhaj's home last year in Albuquerque, I met Bill Frisell, who played several of my guitars...maybe it planted a seed, who knows. If a cat like that gets aboard, it would be a gigantic boost to the scene overall. And fretless guitarist Ned Evett just did Joe Satriani's tour, opening shows for him (although Ned isn't really a micro guy...yet).
All of these things add up, I feel...the more the merrier. Keep doing the competition, it's a good thing...worrying about the small stuff ain't gonna help much though; just enter and let the chips fall wherever. Humans are gonna be human, nobody is perfect...but I think the competition gets folks to writing and coming up with new music, which is exactly what the scene needs...best from the Rockies...Hstick www.microstick.net

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I 2nd that motion.

I really have no time to do another contest [I have *so* many more family
commitments of a medical nature now] - but there is no reason someone else
can't do it. It takes work if you want wide exposure but surely is not
difficult. And I'm not saying there is a deficiency in the UnTwelve contest
- I'm saying there is room for more!!!

It can even be an informal thing - lets say Gene comes up with a tuning and
the goal is to wow Ozan or Carl or the tuning list. If it is kept friendly -
all participants realize its all just personal opinion and good fun we could
have a blast.

As Michael knows the music module community, especially on IRC channels,
often do "compos" - that is competitions - they hand out a sample pack and
give the composers an hour, hours or days, and then the submitters vote on
the complete set of entries (excluding their own). Here in our case, - hand
out a tuning and a time limit and see what people can come up with. It
shouldn't be a negative and might be good practice for next years UnTwelve
contest.

Chris

On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 7:06 PM, Neil Haverstick <microstick@...> wrote:

>
>
>
> All of these things add up, I feel...the more the merrier. Keep doing the
> competition, it's a good thing...worrying about the small stuff ain't gonna
> help much though; just enter and let the chips fall wherever. Humans are
> gonna be human, nobody is perfect...but I think the competition gets folks
> to writing and coming up with new music, which is exactly what the scene
> needs...best from the Rockies...Hstick www.microstick.net
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:

> lets say Gene comes up with a tuning and
> the goal is to wow Ozan or Carl or the tuning list. If it is kept friendly -
> all participants realize its all just personal opinion and good fun we could
> have a blast.

After the Dark Concert I was planning to post a new piece I've written (much faster than the time the UnTwelve thing took me) and issue a contrapuntal challenge.

I'd be game for that. It would be a huge challenge to put something
contrapuntal into a pop idiom. Western people are like 500 years out of
practice in doing that. Though I'd wimp out and do a fugue or something.

On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 7:51 PM, genewardsmith
<genewardsmith@...>wrote:

>
>
>
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com <MakeMicroMusic%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
>
> > lets say Gene comes up with a tuning and
> > the goal is to wow Ozan or Carl or the tuning list. If it is kept
> friendly -
> > all participants realize its all just personal opinion and good fun we
> could
> > have a blast.
>
> After the Dark Concert I was planning to post a new piece I've written
> (much faster than the time the UnTwelve thing took me) and issue a
> contrapuntal challenge.
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

500 years? It's still living tradition. Lot of composers after Bach have written contrapuntal music, until now. Try www.kunstderfuge.com, maybe you will be surprised... For me writing neo-Baroque or contemporary fugues is a great pleasure. It can be applied to the microtonal music as well.

Daniel Forro

On 25 Jan 2011, at 10:12 AM, Chris Vaisvil wrote:

> I'd be game for that. It would be a huge challenge to put something
> contrapuntal into a pop idiom. Western people are like 500 years > out of
> practice in doing that. Though I'd wimp out and do a fugue or > something.

Daniel.

These lists seem to be a fertile breeding ground for hyperbole.

Please point to the truly contrapuntal hit songs of The Rolling Stones,
Blondie, Madanna, Nirvana, or Daft Punk.

My point is that its been 500 years, give or take, since contrapuntal
popular music of the likes of John Dowland.

And I would still like to know if you are a member of ASCAP or similar
rights body.

Chris

On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 8:28 PM, Daniel Forr� <dan.for@...> wrote:

>
>
> 500 years? It's still living tradition. Lot of composers after Bach
> have written contrapuntal music, until now. Try www.kunstderfuge.com,
> maybe you will be surprised... For me writing neo-Baroque or
> contemporary fugues is a great pleasure. It can be applied to the
> microtonal music as well.
>
> Daniel Forro
>
>
> On 25 Jan 2011, at 10:12 AM, Chris Vaisvil wrote:
>
> > I'd be game for that. It would be a huge challenge to put something
> > contrapuntal into a pop idiom. Western people are like 500 years
> > out of
> > practice in doing that. Though I'd wimp out and do a fugue or
> > something.
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have demonstrated my skills in contrapuntal and fugal styles in some of my microtonal pieces.

Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

On Jan 25, 2011, at 3:28 AM, Daniel Forró wrote:

> 500 years? It's still living tradition. Lot of composers after Bach
> have written contrapuntal music, until now. Try www.kunstderfuge.com,
> maybe you will be surprised... For me writing neo-Baroque or
> contemporary fugues is a great pleasure. It can be applied to the
> microtonal music as well.
>
> Daniel Forro
>
> On 25 Jan 2011, at 10:12 AM, Chris Vaisvil wrote:
>
>> I'd be game for that. It would be a huge challenge to put something
>> contrapuntal into a pop idiom. Western people are like 500 years
>> out of
>> practice in doing that. Though I'd wimp out and do a fugue or
>> something.
>
>

On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 8:47 PM, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
> Daniel.
>
> These lists seem to be a fertile breeding ground for hyperbole.
>
> Please point to the truly contrapuntal hit songs of The Rolling Stones,
> Blondie, Madanna, Nirvana,  or Daft Punk.

Progressive rock had some pretty contrapuntal stuff, but I guess
that's an anomaly on an otherwise non-contrapuntal landscape.

-Mike

Good Point - prog rock had the aspiration to BE classical music - until
rock "went back to its roots" with punk.

On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 8:49 PM, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 8:47 PM, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...<chrisvaisvil%40gmail.com>>
> wrote:
> > Daniel.
> >
> > These lists seem to be a fertile breeding ground for hyperbole.
> >
> > Please point to the truly contrapuntal hit songs of The Rolling Stones,
> > Blondie, Madanna, Nirvana, or Daft Punk.
>
> Progressive rock had some pretty contrapuntal stuff, but I guess
> that's an anomaly on an otherwise non-contrapuntal landscape.
>
> -Mike
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

OK, but why some simple pop song should use countepoint at all? This style doesn/t need it, there's no space for such complex tricks. Maybe sometimes we can find some imitation between instruments, or canon, or little bit polyphony in voices, that's all. If somebody tries to do pop song based on counterpoint, we can't expect it will become hit. It would be too complex for average pop consumer.

In the times of Dowland (which means 400 years ago) popular music didn't exist. Only secular and church. Secular was for entertainment, church for spirituality. (BTW I'm now laying in Dowland's works analyzing it, he was a great composer, and not so successful during his life as he would deserve.)

Dividing secular music into "artistic" and "entertaining" started maybe in the end of 18th century, when Mozart wrote some dances, piano concertos, operas and divertimenti for entertainment, and big symphonies like Jupiter, or some string quartets as deep art.

Daniel Forro

On 25 Jan 2011, at 10:47 AM, Chris Vaisvil wrote:

> Daniel.
>
> These lists seem to be a fertile breeding ground for hyperbole.
>
> Please point to the truly contrapuntal hit songs of The Rolling > Stones,
> Blondie, Madanna, Nirvana, or Daft Punk.
>
> My point is that its been 500 years, give or take, since contrapuntal
> popular music of the likes of John Dowland.
>
> And I would still like to know if you are a member of ASCAP or similar
> rights body.
>
> Chris

maybe not a hit, but contrapuntal none the less:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6WSLG5r-wE

On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 8:47 PM, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
> Daniel.
>
> These lists seem to be a fertile breeding ground for hyperbole.
>
> Please point to the truly contrapuntal hit songs of The Rolling Stones,
> Blondie, Madanna, Nirvana,  or Daft Punk.
>
> My point is that its been 500 years, give or take, since contrapuntal
> popular music of the likes of John Dowland.
>
> And I would still like to know if you are a member of ASCAP or similar
> rights body.
>
> Chris
>
> On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 8:28 PM, Daniel Forró <dan.for@...> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> 500 years? It's still living tradition. Lot of composers after Bach
>> have written contrapuntal music, until now. Try www.kunstderfuge.com,
>> maybe you will be surprised... For me writing neo-Baroque or
>> contemporary fugues is a great pleasure. It can be applied to the
>> microtonal music as well.
>>
>> Daniel Forro
>>
>>
>> On 25 Jan 2011, at 10:12 AM, Chris Vaisvil wrote:
>>
>> > I'd be game for that. It would be a huge challenge to put something
>> > contrapuntal into a pop idiom. Western people are like 500 years
>> > out of
>> > practice in doing that. Though I'd wimp out and do a fugue or
>> > something.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Don't forget Phish.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wK1FQC0Q-zY
(among other examples in their stuff... I do consider them prog
though they aren't usually classified that way)

And counterpoint doesn't have to be all eighth notes. In a
lot of jazz and rock, the bass is doing something interesting
while the guitar/piano and vocals are independent. In some
sense jazz and rock did revive the chamber ensemble, and that
lends itself readily to a touch of counterpoint.

-Carl

At 05:49 PM 1/24/2011, you wrote:
>On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 8:47 PM, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
>> Daniel.
>>
>> These lists seem to be a fertile breeding ground for hyperbole.
>>
>> Please point to the truly contrapuntal hit songs of The Rolling Stones,
>> Blondie, Madanna, Nirvana, or Daft Punk.
>
>Progressive rock had some pretty contrapuntal stuff, but I guess
>that's an anomaly on an otherwise non-contrapuntal landscape.
>
>-Mike
>

On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 10:36 PM, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
>
> Don't forget Phish.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wK1FQC0Q-zY
> (among other examples in their stuff... I do consider them prog
> though they aren't usually classified that way)

Or the Beach Boys:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swQ1h_As22Q

> And counterpoint doesn't have to be all eighth notes. In a
> lot of jazz and rock, the bass is doing something interesting
> while the guitar/piano and vocals are independent. In some
> sense jazz and rock did revive the chamber ensemble, and that
> lends itself readily to a touch of counterpoint.

That's a good point. Sax/drums/bass trios basically thrive on counterpoint.

-Mike

It seems that you didn't read my original post

"I'd be game for that. It would be a huge challenge to put something
contrapuntal into a pop idiom. Western people are like 500 years out of
practice in doing that. Though I'd wimp out and do a fugue or something."

And - there has always been "popular" music - that is the music Bartok and
others went out into the fields to capture before it as gone.

On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 10:34 PM, Daniel Forr� <dan.for@...> wrote:

>
>
> OK, but why some simple pop song should use countepoint at all? This
> style doesn/t need it, there's no space for such complex tricks.
> Maybe sometimes we can find some imitation between instruments, or
> canon, or little bit polyphony in voices, that's all. If somebody
> tries to do pop song based on counterpoint, we can't expect it will
> become hit. It would be too complex for average pop consumer.
>
> In the times of Dowland (which means 400 years ago) popular music
> didn't exist. Only secular and church. Secular was for entertainment,
> church for spirituality. (BTW I'm now laying in Dowland's works
> analyzing it, he was a great composer, and not so successful during
> his life as he would deserve.)
>
> Dividing secular music into "artistic" and "entertaining" started
> maybe in the end of 18th century, when Mozart wrote some dances,
> piano concertos, operas and divertimenti for entertainment, and big
> symphonies like Jupiter, or some string quartets as deep art.
>
> Daniel Forro
>
>
> On 25 Jan 2011, at 10:47 AM, Chris Vaisvil wrote:
>
> > Daniel.
> >
> > These lists seem to be a fertile breeding ground for hyperbole.
> >
> > Please point to the truly contrapuntal hit songs of The Rolling
> > Stones,
> > Blondie, Madanna, Nirvana, or Daft Punk.
> >
> > My point is that its been 500 years, give or take, since contrapuntal
> > popular music of the likes of John Dowland.
> >
> > And I would still like to know if you are a member of ASCAP or similar
> > rights body.
> >
> > Chris
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yes, Beach Boy's use of contrapuntal vocals was reminiscent of
Palestrina....

On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 10:45 PM, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 10:36 PM, Carl Lumma <carl@...<carl%40lumma.org>>
> wrote:
> >
> > Don't forget Phish.
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wK1FQC0Q-zY
> > (among other examples in their stuff... I do consider them prog
> > though they aren't usually classified that way)
>
> Or the Beach Boys:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swQ1h_As22Q
>
>
> > And counterpoint doesn't have to be all eighth notes. In a
> > lot of jazz and rock, the bass is doing something interesting
> > while the guitar/piano and vocals are independent. In some
> > sense jazz and rock did revive the chamber ensemble, and that
> > lends itself readily to a touch of counterpoint.
>
> That's a good point. Sax/drums/bass trios basically thrive on counterpoint.
>
> -Mike
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

So you are saying Phish is as accomplished at contrapuntal writing as
Dowland?

On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 10:36 PM, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:

>
>
> Don't forget Phish.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wK1FQC0Q-zY
> (among other examples in their stuff... I do consider them prog
> though they aren't usually classified that way)
>
> And counterpoint doesn't have to be all eighth notes. In a
> lot of jazz and rock, the bass is doing something interesting
> while the guitar/piano and vocals are independent. In some
> sense jazz and rock did revive the chamber ensemble, and that
> lends itself readily to a touch of counterpoint.
>
> -Carl
>
>
> At 05:49 PM 1/24/2011, you wrote:
> >On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 8:47 PM, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...<chrisvaisvil%40gmail.com>>
> wrote:
> >> Daniel.
> >>
> >> These lists seem to be a fertile breeding ground for hyperbole.
> >>
> >> Please point to the truly contrapuntal hit songs of The Rolling Stones,
> >> Blondie, Madanna, Nirvana, or Daft Punk.
> >
> >Progressive rock had some pretty contrapuntal stuff, but I guess
> >that's an anomaly on an otherwise non-contrapuntal landscape.
> >
> >-Mike
> >
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Of course, "popular" was derived from Latin "populus", but nowadays we use this term in slightly shifted meaning - like "light", entertaining, "non-artificial", U-Musik, ... not in the meaning "folk". This doesn't mean some of achievements and aspirations of pop music can't be artistic.
Also it doesn't mean "art" music can't be entertaining :-)
And there's a lot of pop and art music inspired by folklore and ethnic music, and many style synthesis as well.

Daniel Forro

On 25 Jan 2011, at 8:23 PM, Chris Vaisvil wrote:

> And - there has always been "popular" music - that is the music > Bartok and
> others went out into the fields to capture before it as gone.

well, my point, a joking jab at the homophony of modern pop music (prog
rock excluded) turned in something bizarre.

Nonetheless I'd still like to hear what an Aphex Twin fugue would sound
like. No doubt it would be interesting.

And I still think a contest along the lines of Gene's suggestion could be
cool.

Chris

On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 7:48 AM, Daniel Forr� <dan.for@...> wrote:

>
>
> Of course, "popular" was derived from Latin "populus", but nowadays
> we use this term in slightly shifted meaning - like "light",
> entertaining, "non-artificial", U-Musik, ... not in the meaning
> "folk". This doesn't mean some of achievements and aspirations of pop
> music can't be artistic.
> Also it doesn't mean "art" music can't be entertaining :-)
> And there's a lot of pop and art music inspired by folklore and
> ethnic music, and many style synthesis as well.
>
> Daniel Forro
>
>
> On 25 Jan 2011, at 8:23 PM, Chris Vaisvil wrote:
>
> > And - there has always been "popular" music - that is the music
> > Bartok and
> > others went out into the fields to capture before it as gone.
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

As a composer since 1983. Why would you like to know?

Daniel Forro

On 25 Jan 2011, at 10:47 AM, Chris Vaisvil wrote:

> And I would still like to know if you are a member of ASCAP or similar
> rights body.

Is being a member of an organization like ASCAP a necessity or a good idea if you wish to sell sheet music and/or recordings? Are there dues involved? What needs to be done to be a member?

My intention is to sell music - either scores or recordings - to film, special use (commercial jingles and sacred) and maybe games. The goal is to generate a modest supplemental income.

Your advice and experience would be very helpful.

Thanks,

Chris
*

-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel Forr� <dan.for@...>
Sender: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 22:33:39
To: <MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com>
Reply-To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MMM] Contest posts

As a composer since 1983. Why would you like to know?

Daniel Forro

On 25 Jan 2011, at 10:47 AM, Chris Vaisvil wrote:

> And I would still like to know if you are a member of ASCAP or similar
> rights body.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Chris,

they just take care about royalties when my music is somewhere published or performed, and I'm afraid this service is far from quite perfect, just because they can't know about each of public use. They didn't offer me anything other during years. So I have to arrange everything concerning publishing my music (which is of course tough job and everyday fight, rather unsuccessful) and they take care for collecting and paying royalties. As my music is not performed often, and records I have published were done by myself, not by official publisher, still I didn't become rich from royalties :-)
Then I had another income from incidental music for theatre which I did a lot in the past, that's another agency.
And another agency takes care for using my records as a performer...

Nevertheless I think it's good to be a member of such agencies, or at least "protected author". Especially when there's a chance for publishing and using your music. For sure there can be some additional income without additional effort, so you can be paid twice in ideal case. But there are also some duties from my side, I'm not quite free concerning public use of my music, and all eventual contracts must go through these agencies.

Dues - in my country was not necessary to pay for entering, and they take 10% from my income all the time.

I also never understood their system of points evaluating the works, but I think there's some tendency to support art music against pop music. Symphony or opera has more points than pop song. So composer can get maybe same money from 5 performances of contemporary opera as let's say 5000 performances of pop song. Like this. So pop music is somehow sponsor for art music.

How to become member - their condition was to have published and recorded pieces, I think 5 was enough. It was different for composer of art music or for pop music author. But maybe now it's different in my country, and each agency can have different rules, I really don't know. You should find some information about ASCAP conditions, probably directly on their web pages? Or ask somebody in your country.

What's good - copyright and paying royalties is international, as national author's organizations cooperate and change information about author's and their works. I don't think this is quite perfect, especially recently with all this Internet, pirate copies etc. etc., but they try their best.

I'm sorry not to be able to write more info as conditions are different in different countries. Besides I'm quite hopeless as for financial things or laws, and my knowledge in this field is rather poor... I really don't like to deal with it and have to force myself to take care a little bit.

Daniel Forro

On 25 Jan 2011, at 10:52 PM, chrisvaisvil@... wrote:

> Is being a member of an organization like ASCAP a necessity or a > good idea if you wish to sell sheet music and/or recordings? Are > there dues involved? What needs to be done to be a member?
>
> My intention is to sell music - either scores or recordings - to > film, special use (commercial jingles and sacred) and maybe games. > The goal is to generate a modest supplemental income.
>
> Your advice and experience would be very helpful.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chris

Chris wrote:

>> >Progressive rock had some pretty contrapuntal stuff, but I guess
>> >that's an anomaly on an otherwise non-contrapuntal landscape.
>>
>> Don't forget Phish.
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wK1FQC0Q-zY
>> (among other examples in their stuff... I do consider them prog
>> though they aren't usually classified that way)
>>
>> And counterpoint doesn't have to be all eighth notes. In a
>> lot of jazz and rock, the bass is doing something interesting
>> while the guitar/piano and vocals are independent. In some
>> sense jazz and rock did revive the chamber ensemble, and that
>> lends itself readily to a touch of counterpoint.
>
>So you are saying Phish is as accomplished at contrapuntal writing as
>Dowland?

I just said that Phish was popular, and used counterpoint.

-Carl

On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 7:07 AM, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
> Yes, Beach Boy's use of contrapuntal vocals was reminiscent of
> Palestrina....

They sure were in the example I posted. :)

-Mike