Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup makemicromusic ethnocentrism and pseudoscience theorizing

As I feared, labelling a certain age group of a certain class of the
Western population as "a fair range of people" is the kind of
ethnocentrism that microtonalist endeavours should at all costs avoid,
particularly since the greater portion of the world this day does and
historically always did practice "microtonality".

But then again, the very word "microtonality" boomerangs back at the
Western world, while simultaneously drawing from "ethnic world
resources" to feed its audiences with the "exotic" and "avant-garde".

This is the kind of culture-racist bias I would war to break as a
musicologist in Turkiye and abroad, particularly since I am all too well
aware of how this type of thinking leads to counter-nationalistic
prejudices in equal or worse measure to the detriment of native
performance traditions.

But let us brush aside my terminological/puritanist concerns for a
moment, and concentrate on Michael's aim.

Why is microtonalizing the general Western pop audience even a
desideratum? Why buckle under the demands of the market for pushing
forward a particular content with untwelve pitches as the ingredient?

I don't buy it. The type of music I produce, no matter how "small" an
audience it might captivate, has artistic worth in the field of
unconventional usage of pitch/texture/soundscape/setting as far as
talent and skill avails. Neither do I have a compositional alternative
to pseudosciences, nor do I need to come up with one.

Have you even listened to actual "microtonal" songs in the Eastern world
Michael? There are thousands. All this theorizing is moot without proper
research into them. My work so far has roots and is based on systematic
analysis of lengthy observations. These I have codified in the form of
academic materials. They might not amount to anything in the real world
perhaps, but I have incorporated these into working demonstrations and
into my music.

Your search for a scale or scales that will somehow sound "out-of-tune"
enough to be microtonal and yet "in-tune" enough to be mysteriously
accepted by the masses sounds like a fantasy - if not a contradiction in
terms - to me.

Cordially,
Oz.

P.S. By newbies, I meant not music-makers like Sevish or Igs, but
theory-rackers like Marcel, Mike and yourself.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

Michael wrote:
>> "For the second article, I do not even know who this "fair range of
> people" are."
>
> Let's start with "the general Western population" IE America and Europe.
> Not that they'll all love it, but that they'll respect it as music other people
> have good reason to like. IE I don't like Madonna's music, but I can hear
> enough in it that I won't consider anyone who likes it "needing elementary music
> lessons in tone and key".
>
>
>> "when these people have little interest in penetrating deeper into microtonality
>> despite our very own collective
>>
> efforts as senior peers?"
>> "So far, I have not seen any systematic analysis or discovery of anything
>> regarding acoustics from the newbie quarter. "
>
> You know...relative to people like yourself and Gene...even those like Igs
> are newbies. And people like Sevish even more so. And yet...I feel Sevish and
> Igs's work is on par with your own...not on "technical prowess"...but the
> greater purpose of emotional effect and balance.
> Also if musical influence were so simple as who was there the longest...half
> of today's leading musicians would never exist. My issue with the whole senior
> peers thing is not any lack of expertise...but rather that there seems to be a
> drive among them to pull the market to where they are rather than accommodate to
> what's actually there IE the skill is there but the direction...isn't quite
> there.
> I view myself as the opposite...I trust I have the direction...but not the
> skill....hence I'm trying to get those who do have the skill to listen IE
> compose with my tunings (and I mean starting songs from scratch, not retuning
> existing songs they've made, which often works horrifically do to non-standard
> non-even intervals my scales use.
>
>> "The proposed arguments just reek of pseudo-science wherever we turn... in
>> grandiloquent parlour at that."
>
> And your compositional alternative is? It would be easy to call their work
> pseudoscience...if it didn't mysteriously sound as or more amusing then your
> own.
>
>> "For the fourth article, the whole matter should finally boil down to what you
>> yourself aspire for your own enjoyment. Try to create something microtonal that
>> you really are satisfied with, without grandiose motives
>>
> to influence anybody out there."
>
> Good concept...only it seems to give birth to compositions with little
> longevity. I tried that concept for a couple of years and loved it...but then
> came back years later and found myself dismissing my own music due to technical
> reasons.
>
> For example...I can't even vaguely stand the bad production in my old works
> now that I know I need to do things like tune the drums on 5ths and 4ths or
> pieces with only 5 chords or melodies with an overly repeating pattern I didn't
> notice when composing it, but certainly did 1 month later.
> It seems having a "second ear" is key to a song's longevity. Otherwise it
> seems you end up with something only good if you have the exact mood you had on
> the day you wrote it. Heck, I'd love to know exactly what motifs repeat in my
> 14TET piece because, at least for now, it sounds like a solo to me (in a good
> way)...though as time goes on I figure it will become clearer to me where the
> repetition is after I get "un-used to it".
>
>> "Let others like Igs and Chris have a go at the scales to demonstrate your
>> points."
>
> Exactly... Hopefully this time around when I publish my Dimension^2 tuning
> I will have as good luck as when I published these "bad" tunings. It seems when
> I try to make a good scale, people ignore it...but when I try to make a "bad"
> scale, people are all over it... :-D
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Daniel Forró <dan.for@...>

If this is really his target, I think the same - it's contradiction. It's not possible to be avantguard composer experimenting with microtonality and in the same time be accepted and beloved by masses. It doesn't mean we microtonalists should give up and disappear from public or from concert programs. But we can't expect what's called mass success. I'd personally would be surprised and suspicious if such thing will happen.

By statistical research only 4% of music consumers listen to classical music. Huge amount of this is music of 18th and 19th century, and from this only few popular pieces of few popular composers. Thinking about this, how many percent can listen to and enjoy music of 20th century? And how many from it enjoy contemporary music? Avantguard and experimental music? And from this, how many will like microtonal music? There's a very long and winding road to get even 1/10000 of listeners to our side.

Daniel Forro

On 8 Jan 2011, at 1:12 PM, Ozan Yarman wrote:

>
> Your search for a scale or scales that will somehow sound "out-of-> tune"
> enough to be microtonal and yet "in-tune" enough to be mysteriously
> accepted by the masses sounds like a fantasy - if not a > contradiction in
> terms - to me.
>
> Cordially,
> Oz.

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

Ozan>"As I feared, labelling a certain age group of a certain class of the
Western population as "a fair range of people""

I'm not saying people outside that region count less...just that it's a more
easily accessible (realistic-to-reach) population in my case. For
example...good luck surveying people in China or Korea...where their governments
block all sorts of internet traffic..or Africa, where relatively few people even
have the internet.
Not to mention, agree with it or not, a huge degree of world countries are
under great influence from "the West" (including, for example, Japan where Anime
is modeled based on white characters following the American film industry...heck
even "Bollywood" in India copies and remakes Western movies constantly). Given
countries do follow the West that to a large extent...what would you like
countries like Bali, Iran, India to imitate from the West...things like hip-hop
(which they already do in many ways)...or something with a lot more tonal
flexibility?

>"Why is microtonalizing the general Western pop audience even a desideratum? Why
>buckle under the demands of the market for pushing forward a particular content
>with untwelve pitches as the ingredient?"

I see it like saying (hypocritically) "why learn to speak Japanese in
Japan...don't they 'know' English is the 'real' language of the world?" Doing
anything less than compromising with the people you are dealing with...is asking
for trouble IMVHO. And I figure we should deal with the West first...because
they have the most easily accessible influence on other countries (China may
have more people, for example, but it's anything but accessible).

>"The type of music I produce, no matter how "small" an audience it might
>captivate, has artistic worth in the field of unconventional usage of
>pitch/texture/soundscape/setting as far as talent and skill avails."

Fair enough...but are you basically saying if you and I both use, say, 11/9
and 22/15 intervals (both which I recall are favored in both Turkish scales and
my own)...yours becomes "a pure example of culture" while mine becomes
"psuedoscience" or "a deliberate and intolerant attempt to Westernize"? If
anything...I'm trying to open Westernized music to being less strictly,
well....Westernized. :-D

>"Have you even listened to actual "microtonal" songs in the Eastern world
>Michael?"
To be honest, I've been limited so far mostly to my exposure to your own
music. But why is this such a horrid crime?
Counter example: my guess is you probably know all of the intervals used in
Western blues music and/or at least intervals within a few cents of all of them,
but not by their formal American names. Now what if I asked you "have you
listened to American blues and know how/why it uses microtonality (or how it's
Afircan roots were derived?"
More than likely, you've worked mathematically with all the intervals involved
in blues, even composed with them...but don't know their formal names/purposes
in that culture. Does that suddenly make your efforts with such intervals in
music invalid, just because you missed the precise cultural context? Of course
not...in fact you've probably already composed something "bluesy" without even
recognizing it...

>"Your search for a scale or scales that will somehow sound "out-of-tune" enough
>to be microtonal and yet "in-tune" enough to be mysteriously accepted by the
>masses sounds like a fantasy - if not a contradiction in
>
terms - to me."

I've said countless times...I don't believe in "in-tune" vs.
"out-of-tune"...I believe in different ways to moderate tension in music. My
"pseudo-scientific" assumption is that there may be, gasp, more than one way to
mediate tension in tunings beside using 12TET.
You seem to be arguing "it's considered fast in America because it's a
Corvette" while I'm arguing "the car is fast because of any combination of high
power, low weight, good aerodynamics, the incline of the surface it's rolling
on, the wind behind it...and perhaps even other factors that can occur in things
other than just Corvettes, cars, or even vehicles (IE light is fast)".

>"P.S. By newbies, I meant not music-makers like Sevish or Igs, but
>theory-rackers like Marcel, Mike and yourself."

Just because you don't like my music does NOT mean I don't make music...

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

>"It's not possible to be avantguard composer experimenting with microtonality
>and in the same time be accepted and beloved by masses."
Beloved is not the word...followed is: I'm not talking "Taylor Swift" here.
The closest real-world example of this in my mind of "mass-respected
microtonalist" is Neil Haverstick. A corollary in the non-microtonal world
would be Joe Satriani...he's mass respected as well...but he's (in general) no
multi-platinum artist.

Also, since when does microtonal absolutely have to be avant-garde? Neil
Haverstick's 19TET song "African Stick", for example, has a feel that's very
steady...anything but avant-garde in many ways.

>"By statistical research only 4% of music consumers listen to classical music.
>Huge amount of this is music of 18th and 19th century, and from this only few
>popular pieces of few popular composers."

Right...but this assumes everything microtonal falls under the umbrella of
classical music and that microtonal is essentially in the "avant garde neo
classical" sub-genre, correct? Sevish does microtonal drum and bass. Neil does
microtonal rock/blues. Marcus Satellite does microtonal dance. Chris does a lot
of microtonal ambient and some rock, not just classical. Now let's say
musicians like Neil gets the attention of 5% of rock musicians and the Rock
genre has 40% of the market, dance is 30% and musicians like Marcus gets 5% of
that...that's still a fair deal of people...enough to get musicians thinking
about buying their own microtonal gear.

>"There's a very long and winding road to get even 1/10000 of listeners to our
>side."

There sure is if we only go for avant-garde sub-genres of classical.
Now, say we get the microtonal equivalent of Susan Boyle singing an original
song on American Idol or Britain's Got Talent...even if it's, say, some sort of
microtonal Opera ditty (but something fairly hummable and catchy like the Les
Miserables "I Dreamed a Dream" theme was for Susan).

And say (fairly likely) she doesn't win and barely makes the top 10. Still,
due much to the fact what she's doing is so different, she'd be all over the
news and people would start to ask questions. Big time musicians...would even
likely start to ask questions. She would likely go gold (record) in the
industry on buzz alone and, if she did a good job...tons of Indie if not also
popular musicians would follow....people could go to local clubs and hear
microtonal cover bands, companies would start mass producing microtonal
instruments, etc. If we got out of this microtonal = avant garde funk and
stopped waiting for people to follow us "to our home base"...it could happen.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...> wrote:
>
> As I feared, labelling a certain age group of a certain class of the
> Western population as "a fair range of people" is the kind of
> ethnocentrism that microtonalist endeavours should at all costs avoid,
> particularly since the greater portion of the world this day does and
> historically always did practice "microtonality".

Oz, if you can believe it I actually could not agree with you more! Western ears are among the most sluggish, and Western minds as well when it comes to making meaningful distinctions between pitches. No matter how many studies are done that support things such as "harmonic entropy", I will remain somewhat of a skeptic until they are done on populations accustomed to making finer-grained distinctions in musical pitch.

> But then again, the very word "microtonality" boomerangs back at the
> Western world, while simultaneously drawing from "ethnic world
> resources" to feed its audiences with the "exotic" and "avant-garde".

Indeed, but I can assure you not one of us here is proud of this effect of our culture. We are all but forced to isolate and pigeon-hole ourselves because of the use of this word "microtonal". It is a great shame.

> Why is microtonalizing the general Western pop audience even a
> desideratum? Why buckle under the demands of the market for pushing
> forward a particular content with untwelve pitches as the ingredient?

I suppose the reason for desiring this is because of the objections you made above: some of us feel the desire to see our culture emancipated from a single tuning system, to make the word "microtonal" obsolete. Personally, I could care less about my "culture at large" and what they make of my music, but there was I time where I did have grander aspirations.

> I don't buy it. The type of music I produce, no matter how "small" an
> audience it might captivate, has artistic worth in the field of
> unconventional usage of pitch/texture/soundscape/setting as far as
> talent and skill avails. Neither do I have a compositional alternative
> to pseudosciences, nor do I need to come up with one.

What happened to your anti-"glorification of mediocrity" sentiments? I thought you were against the idea of resigning yourself to a small audience and lack of commercial success?

> Have you even listened to actual "microtonal" songs in the Eastern world
> Michael? There are thousands. All this theorizing is moot without proper
> research into them. My work so far has roots and is based on systematic
> analysis of lengthy observations. These I have codified in the form of
> academic materials. They might not amount to anything in the real world
> perhaps, but I have incorporated these into working demonstrations and
> into my music.

Indeed, you have a mighty cultural advantage in some ways. There was a time where I fooled myself into thinking that I might be able to acculturate myself to the music of another culture enough to become proficient...but after failed attempts at learning the cumbus, various instruments of the sundanese gamelan ensemble, the chinese guqin, and even an orchestral instrument of my (supposedly) "own" culture (the clarinet), I decided I lacked a certain empathic understanding necessary to truly make these unfamiliar musical traditions my own. What else is a man to do in such straits, but to resign himself to his "culture of one" and develop it as thoroughly as he can?

> Your search for a scale or scales that will somehow sound "out-of-tune"
> enough to be microtonal and yet "in-tune" enough to be mysteriously
> accepted by the masses sounds like a fantasy - if not a contradiction in
> terms - to me.

Fantasy it might be--and as much as I doubt Michael's scales are likely to catch on, I can't deny I've witnessed (in other areas of life) many people arrive at success on nothing but the strength of a dream and some gumption, in the face of many nay-sayers. It will be history that decides which of us were following the path to success and which others were following mere flights of fancy.

> P.S. By newbies, I meant not music-makers like Sevish or Igs, but
> theory-rackers like Marcel, Mike and yourself.

Ah, so by posting one piece of (what even I consider to be) mediocre music, I've somehow extricated myself from your group of undesirables? I should advise Mike B and Carl to do the same, so that we might have true civility between all list members once again (as I'm sure they are musicians equal to, if not better than, myself).

-Igs

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

Igs>"Of course, as Carl pointed out, they're also an audience ill-suited to
actually appreciate the alternative intonations, on account of the fact that
much electronic music disregards pitch almost entirely."

It's true...there's a lot of electronica out there that focuses on rhythm and
texture rather than intonation. But in genres like funk house, deep house, and
trip hop...jazz and funk influences (including focus on advanced chords and
intonations) are often there. Ditto for ambient D&B or anything that comes from
BT (who is classically trained, and sounds like it...but is also very popular).

In vocal and melodic trance, in fact, the melodies usually take precedence
over textures and are right up there in priority with rhythms (or even higher
valued than rhythms).

Take for example the extremely popular dance song (which borrows a
melodic-trance-friendly chord progression), Cascada - Everytime We Touch.
Listen to the chords carefully...they really are pretty developed and
progressive, not a four chord wonder at all.

Now listen to the "Candlelight Remix"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37tMe5K7vsI...it's almost unrecognizable as being
based on electronica and easily passable as a strong melodic ballad. Far as d&b
type mash ups...try the classic trance track "Finished Symphony" by Hybrid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ayn0Yg-TH4. Or Way Out West's the Gift
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSJTIv4ZNvI. Or Opus III's "It's a Fine Day"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjIPzyVlK60. On ATB's 9PM till I come
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ri6Efk1SPJc.

Don't get me wrong...a lot of top 40 electronica has no stress on
intonation. However if you want to talk about tracks that have survived the
test of time and remained classics, rather than just been fads for a short
period...a huge amount of classic electronica tracks, in fact, have huge melodic
and intonation elements.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

Igs>"Indeed, but I can assure you not one of us here is proud of this effect of
our culture. We are all but forced to isolate and pigeon-hole ourselves because
of the use of this word "microtonal". It is a great shame."
For the record, I'm not proud of it either. In fact, I think we need to
change things here first...by and large because
A) We have a bad problem with intolerance toward microtonallity. Why not fix
the problem at its source?
B) Much of the world imitates us...and, in turn, imitates our problem!
...I just believe...we have to push Western ears along slowly in the right
direction and compromise a lot in our presentation at first (though not our
ultimate goal)...otherwise they'll just dismiss us a lunatics and we'll be left
with virtually no influences. For the record, my new scales feature a whole lot
of 11 and even some 15-limit as extra intervals...they are hardly "Western
compliant" in a lot of ways.

>"Ah, so by posting one piece of (what even I consider to be) mediocre music,
>I've somehow extricated myself from your group of undesirables? I should advise
>Mike B and Carl to do the same, so that we might have true civility between all
>list members once again (as I'm sure they are musicians equal to, if not better
>than, myself)."

Funny thing is I've posted several pieces of music here (Melancholy and
Yellow, Sutra, and that 14TET piece) and yet Ozan still brands me as "a guy who
does not make music". Apparently posting music works for everyone but me. I
don't deserve this...what gives?! Just because I don't make music OZAN likes
does not mean I don't take the time or effort to make music!!!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

>Not all of us are making music in what would be considered the
>"classical" tradition. Not that I expect those of us that make
>electronic music or rock have better chances of hitting it "big" with
>something microtonal, but perhaps there is at least a slightly wider
>audience who might be likely to stumble upon us. Electronic music
>consumers are notorious for their ravenous appetites for new and
>obscure music. Of course, as Carl pointed out, they're also an
>audience ill-suited to actually appreciate the alternative
>intonations, on account of the fact that much electronic music
>disregards pitch almost entirely. Kind of a sad catch-22, I suppose.
>
>-Igs

The genre is a natural for microtonalism, and I've been suggesting
for years that microtonality is likely to get its biggest popular
start in electronica (and in fact, it has been more adopted there
than elsewhere), for several reasons

1. It is forgiving, in the way I mentioned with respect to pitch.
The relatively simple structures don't often have comma problems,
etc. etc. This makes it relatively easy to adopt microtonal
tunings. Yes, as you say, it also matters less, but you can't
have cake and eat it. The average electronic musician could
probably switch to something like 19 in an afternoon.

2. The audience is forgiving. While I criticized them for not
being able to do analytic listening, in the past I've praised them
for their openness. He who does not listen analytically hears
everything as a timbre. And that's also a lot less judgmental.
Many fans of electronica have very refined tastes in listening
to timbre -- they characterize the music in terms of "sound".
If it sounds cool, they will dig it. They will not balk that the
sixths sound wrong because they are not in 12-ET, as some
conservatory-trained musicians might.

Ok, two reasons. -C.

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

Ozan>"Stop this barrage of false attributions to my name."

Only if you start making false attributions to mine by (FINALLY) giving me
due credit for being a microtonal music composer

. And yes...that means EVEN if you don't like the music, that doesn't mean
you can go running around saying I'm a guy who makes tunings but not music (or
implying I'm a hypocrit and have no experience with actual/realistic
compositional use of my tunings)!

For those of you who actually believed Ozan that I'm a psuedoscientist and not
a composer or just wonder what my full-length songs sound like...here are 4 full
length songs I've made (with no help composing them whatsoever)...every single
one of them using my own tunings:

----------------------
1)
/makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/sutra128.mp3

(done in a combination 12TET and my Dimension-1 Tuning system...the first
version in 12TET, the other 2 in Infinity)
--------------------------
2)
/makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/SpectraFloor-LostInParadiseMastered112.mp3

(Done in my Infinity tuning system)
--------------------------
3)
/makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/smallmelancholic.mp3

(Done in 19TET)
-------------------
4)
http://www.archive.org/download/Split_Notes_-_Crack_My_Pitch_Up/04_Paragon_-_Coral_Garden.mp3

(Done in the Infinity tuning system and featured in Sevish's "Crack My Pitch
Up" musical compilation at
http://www.archive.org/details/Split_Notes_-_Crack_My_Pitch_Up)
----------------------------

How do you like them apples?!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

Hi Igs,

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

cityoftheasleep wrote:
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Ozan Yarman<ozanyarman@...> wrote:
>> As I feared, labelling a certain age group of a certain class of the
>> Western population as "a fair range of people" is the kind of
>> ethnocentrism that microtonalist endeavours should at all costs avoid,
>> particularly since the greater portion of the world this day does and
>> historically always did practice "microtonality".
>
> Oz, if you can believe it I actually could not agree with you more! Western ears are among the most sluggish, and Western minds as well when it comes to making meaningful distinctions between pitches. No matter how many studies are done that support things such as "harmonic entropy", I will remain somewhat of a skeptic until they are done on populations accustomed to making finer-grained distinctions in musical pitch.
>

Good to know you share my approach.

>> But then again, the very word "microtonality" boomerangs back at the
>> Western world, while simultaneously drawing from "ethnic world
>> resources" to feed its audiences with the "exotic" and "avant-garde".
>
> Indeed, but I can assure you not one of us here is proud of this effect of our culture. We are all but forced to isolate and pigeon-hole ourselves because of the use of this word "microtonal". It is a great shame.
>

Ditto. But are you being a tad sacrastic here?

>> Why is microtonalizing the general Western pop audience even a
>> desideratum? Why buckle under the demands of the market for pushing
>> forward a particular content with untwelve pitches as the ingredient?
>
> I suppose the reason for desiring this is because of the objections you made above: some of us feel the desire to see our culture emancipated from a single tuning system, to make the word "microtonal" obsolete. Personally, I could care less about my "culture at large" and what they make of my music, but there was I time where I did have grander aspirations.
>

Indeed?

>> I don't buy it. The type of music I produce, no matter how "small" an
>> audience it might captivate, has artistic worth in the field of
>> unconventional usage of pitch/texture/soundscape/setting as far as
>> talent and skill avails. Neither do I have a compositional alternative
>> to pseudosciences, nor do I need to come up with one.
>
> What happened to your anti-"glorification of mediocrity" sentiments? I thought you were against the idea of resigning yourself to a small audience and lack of commercial success?
>

I do aim for a large and varied, yet erudite, crowd, no matter how
"small" in the greater scheme of things. The mediocrity I try to evade
is consigning myself to musical production "devoid of luster" for those
self-imprisoned web niches whose taste for well-embroidered music is -
well - stagnating. This, due more to an unchecked fetish into
"out-of-tuneness" than anything else. Not that I brush away the niches
as this one, it's just that I don't necessarily prioritize them for the
consumption of my musics... at least I hope it won't stay that way when
I can get an album or two into the mass music market (for which I must
achieve a quality polish satifying my demands for perfectionism).

>> Have you even listened to actual "microtonal" songs in the Eastern world
>> Michael? There are thousands. All this theorizing is moot without proper
>> research into them. My work so far has roots and is based on systematic
>> analysis of lengthy observations. These I have codified in the form of
>> academic materials. They might not amount to anything in the real world
>> perhaps, but I have incorporated these into working demonstrations and
>> into my music.
>
> Indeed, you have a mighty cultural advantage in some ways. There was a time where I fooled myself into thinking that I might be able to acculturate myself to the music of another culture enough to become proficient...but after failed attempts at learning the cumbus, various instruments of the sundanese gamelan ensemble, the chinese guqin, and even an orchestral instrument of my (supposedly) "own" culture (the clarinet), I decided I lacked a certain empathic understanding necessary to truly make these unfamiliar musical traditions my own. What else is a man to do in such straits, but to resign himself to his "culture of one" and develop it as thoroughly as he can?
>

That does not necessarily entail a shortcoming. It can be turned into an
altogether distinct advantage. It would appear you are progressing well
in that direction.

>> Your search for a scale or scales that will somehow sound "out-of-tune"
>> enough to be microtonal and yet "in-tune" enough to be mysteriously
>> accepted by the masses sounds like a fantasy - if not a contradiction in
>> terms - to me.
>
> Fantasy it might be--and as much as I doubt Michael's scales are likely to catch on, I can't deny I've witnessed (in other areas of life) many people arrive at success on nothing but the strength of a dream and some gumption, in the face of many nay-sayers. It will be history that decides which of us were following the path to success and which others were following mere flights of fancy.
>

Ok. But I try to trust more in factuality and realism than daydreaming.

>> P.S. By newbies, I meant not music-makers like Sevish or Igs, but
>> theory-rackers like Marcel, Mike and yourself.
>
> Ah, so by posting one piece of (what even I consider to be) mediocre music, I've somehow extricated myself from your group of undesirables?

No, you have been systematic in evaluating diverse tunings (EDOs) and
have amassed an experience in their practice which is worthy of
recognition and study. Didn't I mention having listened to and
appreciated your CDs?

> I should advise Mike B and Carl to do the same, so that we might have true civility between all list members once again (as I'm sure they are musicians equal to, if not better than, myself).
>

I doubt everybody can be vigorous executants and experimenters in the
field of xentonality/microtonality like you and Chris.

> -Igs
>
>
>

Cordially,
Oz.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

Michael,

I read that you are biased about countries that you have not researched
or visited, but trust in their oppressiveness and total acclimitization
by Westernization based on hearsay and Euramerican media pollution. This
thing called the internet cannot be contained anymore within the
breaches of governments of any despotic sort. It's leaking everywhere
into the homes of billions. It will one day be the downfall of the
barrage of lies cast by every regime, including "democracies"
themselves. The founding father of Turkiye had once said: "The future is
in the skies". Not any longer. The future is the internet as far as the
eye can see. It's the greatest thing that ever happened to this planet.
Use it to your advantage. Therefore, restrict yourself not with the
mediocre aim of appeasing the bubblegum youth of Europe and Americas
with moderately bent pitches. Entertain grander notions if grander
notions is your game. Attempt to access China, India, Russia, Oceania
over the web... you'll be amazed... especially since you believe they
have surrendered to natively springing pop musics of Western persuasion
and that is your chosen field of priority. In fact, better fortunes
await in that direction more than anywhere else. Otherwise, that would
be an act of compromising.

Cordially,
Oz.

P.S. 1. In my theoretical pursuits, I have never attempted to formulate
a standard consonance model for a fair population. There is none AFAIC.
I had merely sought to describe an existing phenomenon using diverse
approaches. Thereby is the division between historicity of pitch and
pseudoscience.

P.S. 2. If I was attempting to mass market "hands-on microtonality" to a
sizable portion of the world, it would have been a grave shortcoming in
me not to have studied practical and traditional examples in other parts
of the world like Blues. I do not, you do. As for "Horrid crime", you
said it, not me! Why not spend some time researching available materials
instead of so much time typing on the keyboard?

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

Michael wrote:
> Ozan>"As I feared, labelling a certain age group of a certain class of the
> Western population as "a fair range of people""
>
> I'm not saying people outside that region count less...just that it's a more
> easily accessible (realistic-to-reach) population in my case. For
> example...good luck surveying people in China or Korea...where their governments
> block all sorts of internet traffic..or Africa, where relatively few people even
> have the internet.
> Not to mention, agree with it or not, a huge degree of world countries are
> under great influence from "the West" (including, for example, Japan where Anime
> is modeled based on white characters following the American film industry...heck
> even "Bollywood" in India copies and remakes Western movies constantly). Given
> countries do follow the West that to a large extent...what would you like
> countries like Bali, Iran, India to imitate from the West...things like hip-hop
> (which they already do in many ways)...or something with a lot more tonal
> flexibility?
>
>> "Why is microtonalizing the general Western pop audience even a desideratum? Why
>> buckle under the demands of the market for pushing forward a particular content
>> with untwelve pitches as the ingredient?"
>
> I see it like saying (hypocritically) "why learn to speak Japanese in
> Japan...don't they 'know' English is the 'real' language of the world?" Doing
> anything less than compromising with the people you are dealing with...is asking
> for trouble IMVHO. And I figure we should deal with the West first...because
> they have the most easily accessible influence on other countries (China may
> have more people, for example, but it's anything but accessible).
>
>> "The type of music I produce, no matter how "small" an audience it might
>> captivate, has artistic worth in the field of unconventional usage of
>> pitch/texture/soundscape/setting as far as talent and skill avails."
>
> Fair enough...but are you basically saying if you and I both use, say, 11/9
> and 22/15 intervals (both which I recall are favored in both Turkish scales and
> my own)...yours becomes "a pure example of culture" while mine becomes
> "psuedoscience" or "a deliberate and intolerant attempt to Westernize"? If
> anything...I'm trying to open Westernized music to being less strictly,
> well....Westernized. :-D
>
>> "Have you even listened to actual "microtonal" songs in the Eastern world
>> Michael?"
> To be honest, I've been limited so far mostly to my exposure to your own
> music. But why is this such a horrid crime?
> Counter example: my guess is you probably know all of the intervals used in
> Western blues music and/or at least intervals within a few cents of all of them,
> but not by their formal American names. Now what if I asked you "have you
> listened to American blues and know how/why it uses microtonality (or how it's
> Afircan roots were derived?"
> More than likely, you've worked mathematically with all the intervals involved
> in blues, even composed with them...but don't know their formal names/purposes
> in that culture. Does that suddenly make your efforts with such intervals in
> music invalid, just because you missed the precise cultural context? Of course
> not...in fact you've probably already composed something "bluesy" without even
> recognizing it...
>
>> "Your search for a scale or scales that will somehow sound "out-of-tune" enough
>> to be microtonal and yet "in-tune" enough to be mysteriously accepted by the
>> masses sounds like a fantasy - if not a contradiction in
>>
> terms - to me."
>
> I've said countless times...I don't believe in "in-tune" vs.
> "out-of-tune"...I believe in different ways to moderate tension in music. My
> "pseudo-scientific" assumption is that there may be, gasp, more than one way to
> mediate tension in tunings beside using 12TET.
> You seem to be arguing "it's considered fast in America because it's a
> Corvette" while I'm arguing "the car is fast because of any combination of high
> power, low weight, good aerodynamics, the incline of the surface it's rolling
> on, the wind behind it...and perhaps even other factors that can occur in things
> other than just Corvettes, cars, or even vehicles (IE light is fast)".
>
>
>> "P.S. By newbies, I meant not music-makers like Sevish or Igs, but
>> theory-rackers like Marcel, Mike and yourself."
>
> Just because you don't like my music does NOT mean I don't make music...
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

I never said anywhere that you weren't a microtonal music composer. I
only criticized the examples you produced from a musical perspective.
And is saying that even a requisite for you not to speak falsely in my name?

Oz.

> --
>
> ✩ ✩ ✩
> www.ozanyarman.com
> Ozan>"Stop this barrage of false attributions to my name."
>
> Only if you start making false attributions to mine by (FINALLY) giving me
> due credit for being a microtonal music composer
>
> . And yes...that means EVEN if you don't like the music, that doesn't mean
> you can go running around saying I'm a guy who makes tunings but not music (or
> implying I'm a hypocrit and have no experience with actual/realistic
> compositional use of my tunings)!
>
>
>
> For those of you who actually believed Ozan that I'm a psuedoscientist and not
> a composer or just wonder what my full-length songs sound like...here are 4 full
> length songs I've made (with no help composing them whatsoever)...every single
> one of them using my own tunings:
>
> ----------------------
> 1)
> /makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/sutra128.mp3
>
> (done in a combination 12TET and my Dimension-1 Tuning system...the first
> version in 12TET, the other 2 in Infinity)
> --------------------------
> 2)
> /makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/SpectraFloor-LostInParadiseMastered112.mp3
>
> (Done in my Infinity tuning system)
> --------------------------
> 3)
> /makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/smallmelancholic.mp3
>
> (Done in 19TET)
> -------------------
> 4)
> http://www.archive.org/download/Split_Notes_-_Crack_My_Pitch_Up/04_Paragon_-_Coral_Garden.mp3
>
> (Done in the Infinity tuning system and featured in Sevish's "Crack My Pitch
> Up" musical compilation at
> http://www.archive.org/details/Split_Notes_-_Crack_My_Pitch_Up)
> ----------------------------
>
>
> How do you like them apples?!
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

🔗john777music <jfos777@...>

Well Michael,

your detractors can eat their words. Sutra128 is one of the best dance tracks I have heard for years. I'm amazed how good it is, the tuning is excellent and clearly xenharmonic. More of this please.

John.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:
>
> Ozan>"Stop this barrage of false attributions to my name."
>
> Only if you start making false attributions to mine by (FINALLY) giving me
> due credit for being a microtonal music composer
>
> . And yes...that means EVEN if you don't like the music, that doesn't mean
> you can go running around saying I'm a guy who makes tunings but not music (or
> implying I'm a hypocrit and have no experience with actual/realistic
> compositional use of my tunings)!
>
>
>
> For those of you who actually believed Ozan that I'm a psuedoscientist and not
> a composer or just wonder what my full-length songs sound like...here are 4 full
> length songs I've made (with no help composing them whatsoever)...every single
> one of them using my own tunings:
>
> ----------------------
> 1)
> /makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/sutra128.mp3
>
> (done in a combination 12TET and my Dimension-1 Tuning system...the first
> version in 12TET, the other 2 in Infinity)
> --------------------------
> 2)
> /makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/SpectraFloor-LostInParadiseMastered112.mp3
>
> (Done in my Infinity tuning system)
> --------------------------
> 3)
> /makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/smallmelancholic.mp3
>
> (Done in 19TET)
> -------------------
> 4)
> http://www.archive.org/download/Split_Notes_-_Crack_My_Pitch_Up/04_Paragon_-_Coral_Garden.mp3
>
> (Done in the Infinity tuning system and featured in Sevish's "Crack My Pitch
> Up" musical compilation at
> http://www.archive.org/details/Split_Notes_-_Crack_My_Pitch_Up)
> ----------------------------
>
>
> How do you like them apples?!
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

Why have you been holding back on us? This is the kind of thing that we
want to hear. You have uttered such misleading words as "I stink at
composing" and lead us on, but that is evidently not true. I like 'em
apples. Very good musics! Keep them coming.

But really, it's not about the theory (pseudoscience still), it's about
what you make with the scales you have.

Ok, you is microtonal music composer. Happy?

Oz.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

On Sat, Jan 8, 2011 at 8:13 PM, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:
>> Ah, so by posting one piece of (what even I consider to be) mediocre music, I've somehow extricated myself from your group of undesirables? I should advise Mike B and Carl to do the same, so that we might have true civility between all list members once again (as I'm sure they are musicians equal to, if not better than, myself).
>
> You already know that I have plans to write plenty of music, but right
> now's not the time for it. Let's see what happens when I move to NYC
> to start my musical career in a few months. Let's see what happens
> when I can finally improvise on a generalized keyboard, as all of my
> songwriting has generally stemmed from improvisations.
>
> I don't really feel any burning need to add another thing on my plate
> right now for the sake of "earning Ozan's respect."

If you'd like, here's an excerpt from a live improvisation I performed
two years ago for my senior recital in 24-tet, which was the only
tuning I had available to use at the time. It isn't really indicative
of my modern knowledge of tuning theory, just something I did for fun.

http://www.mikebattagliamusic.com/dartmouthapp/ObliqueMotion.mp3

Maybe this will hold you over until I get EWQL set up with the Kontakt
microtuner.

-Mike

🔗jonszanto <jszanto@...>

🔗john777music <jfos777@...>

Hang on a second, the first 20 seconds of Sutra128, is this 12TET or Dimension-1?

John.

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

ditto

well done!

I think your short demos have placed you at a disadvantage. This
sounds much more developed and mature.

Chris

On Sat, Jan 8, 2011 at 8:16 PM, john777music <jfos777@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Well Michael,
>
> your detractors can eat their words. Sutra128 is one of the best dance tracks I have heard for years. I'm amazed how good it is, the tuning is excellent and clearly xenharmonic. More of this please.
>
> John.
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:
> >
> > Ozan>"Stop this barrage of false attributions to my name."
> >
> > Only if you start making false attributions to mine by (FINALLY) giving me
> > due credit for being a microtonal music composer
> >
> > . And yes...that means EVEN if you don't like the music, that doesn't mean
> > you can go running around saying I'm a guy who makes tunings but not music (or
> > implying I'm a hypocrit and have no experience with actual/realistic
> > compositional use of my tunings)!
> >
> >
> >
> > For those of you who actually believed Ozan that I'm a psuedoscientist and not
> > a composer or just wonder what my full-length songs sound like...here are 4 full
> > length songs I've made (with no help composing them whatsoever)...every single
> > one of them using my own tunings:
> >
> > ----------------------
> > 1)
> > /makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/sutra128.mp3
> >
> > (done in a combination 12TET and my Dimension-1 Tuning system...the first
> > version in 12TET, the other 2 in Infinity)
> > --------------------------
> > 2)
> > /makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/SpectraFloor-LostInParadiseMastered112.mp3
> >
> > (Done in my Infinity tuning system)
> > --------------------------
> > 3)
> > /makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/smallmelancholic.mp3
> >
> > (Done in 19TET)
> > -------------------
> > 4)
> > http://www.archive.org/download/Split_Notes_-_Crack_My_Pitch_Up/04_Paragon_-_Coral_Garden.mp3
> >
> > (Done in the Infinity tuning system and featured in Sevish's "Crack My Pitch
> > Up" musical compilation at
> > http://www.archive.org/details/Split_Notes_-_Crack_My_Pitch_Up)
> > ----------------------------
> >
> >
> > How do you like them apples?!
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

Ozan>"Why have you been holding back on us? This is the kind of thing that we
want to hear. You have uttered such misleading words as "I stink at composing"
and lead us on"

To be honest...I think my composing skills with my microtonal scale are
"middle of the road amateur"...in other words very little compared to what my
scales could do in the right hands. Compared to what could be done with such
scales...I stink. And my real world reviews have never gotten above 3 stars of
5 in the long term...
What to call myself...a decent amateur musician, nothing special but nothing
less than very dedicated to his cause...that would work. :-D

It does confuse me when people say "this music needs more variation"...then
come back to something I've wrote in the past made with far less variation and
say it is good... I guess that's why I'm confused.

Far as why I've been "holding back"...personally I think I compose not-so-hot
music when I'm not inspired. I'm not like Chris or Igs...who can apparently
just make themselves inspired on the spot. Yet I felt forced by you (Ozan) and
others to either compose or be held to the torch as a lazy hypocrit who makes
un-usable scales....so I composed uninspired anyhow as a testament to my hard
work ethic and, as expected, my works composed when I wasn't expired didn't
sound nearly as passionate.

Funny fact...EVERY SINGLE SONG I JUST POSTED HAS BEEN POSTED TO THIS LIST OR
THE TUNING LIST AT LEAST ONCE! However...it seems many people were so busy
bashing me and my theories, they forgot to actually give me a fair chance to
show my music and examples of said theories in action.... That's the scary
thing...I never really held back...but apparently I had to go this far to get a
whole lot of people to "see the light", so to speak.

>"But really, it's not about the theory (pseudoscience still), it's about what
>you make with the scales you have."
Oh man...so there we go into "the scale is a pipe dream...but the music made
with it is not".

Call me stubborn, but I'm still of the opinion that if the music is decent,
chances are the "bricks it is made of" are also decent. My music made with my
own scales...so far...does constantly better than anything written in other
people's scales.

You can say the songs made with my seem to do better because they "match my
personality better" or "are easier to compose with for me because I made them"
what not...but I'm still betting it has something to do with this so called
"psuedoscience" lending itself to easy composing. And not just for me, I
believe...but for others as well. The only real way to know though, of
course...is to have people try composing in my scales and do so for enjoyment,
and not in the scope of some personal agenda for or against me.

I'm going to die still trying to better my scales and their exposure...so
don't hope for me to quit any time soon! If 1 million people hold a protest to
say may scales are pseudoscience...tough...I'm still going to be up late at
night polishing them!

>"Ok, you is microtonal music composer. Happy?"
Indeed, that definitely works...thank you! :-)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

Let's agree to disagree in this one last round, Michael.

Your presentation of your ideas and material for a whole year was
anything but organized. If I could not follow your expositions
straightly, find only half the fault in me!

For one thing, I didn't know Paragon was your nickname in Crack my pitch
up. My excuse for losing track of your worthwhile pieces is my being
short-term memory handicapped when reading e-mails. A consistent
presentation in a single message featuring the rudiments, idiom and
methods of the music file as well as the scale employed would help
readers a lot.

As for your scales... well, I insist still that you should not pursue to
reach anything universal. Probably no such thing exists as far as the
diversity/cultures/tastes of the human mind across continents is a
Kantian reality. Expect not to hit paydirt in scientific breakthroughs
here. Create and utilize whatever inspires you thus. Don't force
yourself up the river, and foremost of all, do not follow dogmatic
agendas in music-making! Anybody can make beautiful music using
anything. That includes the tuning.

Cordially,
Oz.

> --
>
> ✩ ✩ ✩
> www.ozanyarman.com
> Ozan>"Why have you been holding back on us? This is the kind of thing that we
> want to hear. You have uttered such misleading words as "I stink at composing"
> and lead us on"
>
> To be honest...I think my composing skills with my microtonal scale are
> "middle of the road amateur"...in other words very little compared to what my
> scales could do in the right hands. Compared to what could be done with such
> scales...I stink. And my real world reviews have never gotten above 3 stars of
> 5 in the long term...
> What to call myself...a decent amateur musician, nothing special but nothing
> less than very dedicated to his cause...that would work. :-D
>
> It does confuse me when people say "this music needs more variation"...then
> come back to something I've wrote in the past made with far less variation and
> say it is good... I guess that's why I'm confused.
>
>
>
> Far as why I've been "holding back"...personally I think I compose not-so-hot
> music when I'm not inspired. I'm not like Chris or Igs...who can apparently
> just make themselves inspired on the spot. Yet I felt forced by you (Ozan) and
> others to either compose or be held to the torch as a lazy hypocrit who makes
> un-usable scales....so I composed uninspired anyhow as a testament to my hard
> work ethic and, as expected, my works composed when I wasn't expired didn't
> sound nearly as passionate.
>
> Funny fact...EVERY SINGLE SONG I JUST POSTED HAS BEEN POSTED TO THIS LIST OR
> THE TUNING LIST AT LEAST ONCE! However...it seems many people were so busy
> bashing me and my theories, they forgot to actually give me a fair chance to
> show my music and examples of said theories in action.... That's the scary
> thing...I never really held back...but apparently I had to go this far to get a
> whole lot of people to "see the light", so to speak.
>
>
>> "But really, it's not about the theory (pseudoscience still), it's about what
>> you make with the scales you have."
> Oh man...so there we go into "the scale is a pipe dream...but the music made
> with it is not".
>
> Call me stubborn, but I'm still of the opinion that if the music is decent,
> chances are the "bricks it is made of" are also decent. My music made with my
> own scales...so far...does constantly better than anything written in other
> people's scales.
>
> You can say the songs made with my seem to do better because they "match my
> personality better" or "are easier to compose with for me because I made them"
> what not...but I'm still betting it has something to do with this so called
> "psuedoscience" lending itself to easy composing. And not just for me, I
> believe...but for others as well. The only real way to know though, of
> course...is to have people try composing in my scales and do so for enjoyment,
> and not in the scope of some personal agenda for or against me.
>
> I'm going to die still trying to better my scales and their exposure...so
> don't hope for me to quit any time soon! If 1 million people hold a protest to
> say may scales are pseudoscience...tough...I'm still going to be up late at
> night polishing them!
>
>> "Ok, you is microtonal music composer. Happy?"
> Indeed, that definitely works...thank you! :-)
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

John>"
Well Michael,
your detractors can eat their words. Sutra128 is one of the best dance tracks I
have heard for years. I'm amazed how good it is, the tuning is excellent and
clearly xenharmonic. More of this please."

Glad you enjoyed it.
My entry to the Untwelve competition is very similar to that song...and,
actually, in my opinion, a fair deal better (slower, but with similar momentum
and a whole lot more melodic variation and the same focus on both energy and
smoothness/clarity). So as soon as the compilation is released...you'll hear
it. :-)

And of course...I'll work on more stuff like this. Mind you making "liquid
beats" like that (I make all my beats from scratch) can take a week...and that's
before adding any of the other parts! :-D
------------
Another note, specifically about how I composed "Sutra". My little message
on "beat generators" on this list (which it seems virtually everyone ignored)
describes how I make my beats and rotate my drums.
I'm pretty sure I'm on to something there (far as rhythm) even if my
production quality certainly isn't pro...IE I break all sorts of rules with how
I rotate my drums onto offbeats, eliminate the need for snares or claps or kicks
re-occur every couple of 8th notes...yet I have received very few complaints my
drums either "sound off" or "lack momentum of having drums on-beat".

And not to brag about the Dimension tuning but, at least to me...composition
has become much quicker and more natural when I use it. Of course it could be
just a personal preference that makes it work so well for me but..I wish people
would try it....at least once...I bet a fair number of them would find it quite
efficient for composing.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

Hi Michael.

Just had a listen, and Sutra sounds good!
Great work!

I think I find Lost in Paradise more interesting even compositionally, but
it doesn't sound nearly as good on my system as Sutra (not mixed as well)
But I like it as well.

Small Melancholic I didn't really get into. Don't like the tuning, and the
piano sound doesn't sound good to me.

Crack my Pitch up is kinda nice to my ears, but the mix isn't very clear.

Thanks for the music, and hope you find this feedback usefull somehow :)

-Marcel

> 1)
>
> /makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/sutra128.mp3
>
> (done in a combination 12TET and my Dimension-1 Tuning system...the first
> version in 12TET, the other 2 in Infinity)
> --------------------------
> 2)
>
> /makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/SpectraFloor-LostInParadiseMastered112.mp3
>
> (Done in my Infinity tuning system)
> --------------------------
> 3)
>
> /makemicromusic/files/djtrancendance/smallmelancholic.mp3
>
> (Done in 19TET)
> -------------------
> 4)
>
> http://www.archive.org/download/Split_Notes_-_Crack_My_Pitch_Up/04_Paragon_-_Coral_Garden.mp3
>
> (Done in the Infinity tuning system and featured in Sevish's "Crack My
> Pitch
> Up" musical compilation at
> http://www.archive.org/details/Split_Notes_-_Crack_My_Pitch_Up)
> ----------------------------
>
> How do you like them apples?!
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗Daniel Forró <dan.for@...>

Japan has its own old traditions from 18th and 19th century - Ukiyoe. There are also old horror stories (kaidan), ninja stories and still living tradition of folk story tellers (rakugo). Enough sources for comics, manga and anime - first cartoon films were produced about 1917. From later probably everybody knows turtle ninjas, or different huge creatures destroying cities (Gojira & company). or sci-fi and robot series...

But it's true there's a lot of influences from American pop culture, especially after WWW 2. (Unfortunately also Japanese language is terribly polluted from English, despite the fact that English knowledge is rather poor here.) Good example is Japanese Superman for children called Anpanman - who looks more like antihero or caricature (anpan is type of Japanese donut or bread with sweet soya paste filling)...

Lot of anime or manga also found inspiration in European culture and steal many motifs from old myths, or only superficially just some names, and combine them freely which is often rather funny (Phoenix, Laputa etc.).

Concerning J-pop, it's greatly influenced by all styles of contemporary Western pop/rock/jazz/fusion/folk/country... Western influence on Japanese music started in Meiji era since 70ies in 19th century, when composers were sent to the West to study Western music. Lot of school educational, nationalist or propaganda artificial songs - shoka - in Western style from those times are still well known here and serve as a kind of folklore. There are German, Italian, English, French, Mediterranean and Russian music influences. Some of them are more original, and use Japanese or Chinese pentatonics for melody with Western harmonization. Later enka style is deeply influenced by Russian and Greek music as well as French chanson.

Japanese TV NHK has a tradition of broadcasting few long concerts during New year season. This year I have mentioned some new trends and tendencies - big groups using playback accompaniment and dancing, usually only female (some even very young) or male, up to 30 or so members. Generally artistic quality of music itself was very poor in comparison with older styles (one of those programs was a big retrospective of older winning songs from last 50 years). Totally boring. And nothing interesting or original, all only poor copies of American music. It's a pity Japanese are ashamed to use elements of their own rich culture. It's a pity that we foreigners living here in Japan must remind them about their own history and music, or even show them how to use it or combine with contemporary art.

Sometimes some people try to protest against Westernization, Americanization or globalisation. But nothing can be done. Problem is not that there is strong impact of this culture. I see the main problem in the fact, that local people don't care about their own culture, and just passively accept what is offered. They don't mind. They want to be westernized. They want to be uniform. They don't want to be unique, original, interesting. Same in India, China... Strange world.

Daniel Forro

On 8 Jan 2011, at 3:12 PM, genewardsmith wrote:

>
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Michael <djtrancendance@...> > wrote:
>
>> Not to mention, agree with it or not, a huge degree of world >> countries are
>> under great influence from "the West" (including, for example, >> Japan where Anime
>> is modeled based on white characters following the American film >> industry...
>
> No, it's modeled on early cartoons. Betty Boop was a big influence. > And anime characters don't look white to the Japanese, unless they > are white, of course, which can happen. But the point for us should > be music--J-Pop. Influenced by rockabilly and the Beatles, etc., > but not to the exclusion of indigenous influences.
>
> heck
>> even "Bollywood" in India copies and remakes Western movies >> constantly).
>
> Bollywood does things the Bollywood way.
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

🔗Daniel Forró <dan.for@...>

Such public can accept electronic sounds, noises without pitch, even
some unusual rhythms, or even aleatorics, but I don't think they will
accept strange out-of-tune melodies, chords or harmonic progressions.
In certain sense they are very conservative, closed in their own
world and refusing anything what differs from their beloved music
style. What we need are tolerant unbiased listeners opened to new
ideas, accepting and enjoying them. This need some education. We
can't expect this type of education from recent education system in
any country, or radio or TV broadcast, or published CD's.

Daniel Forro

On 9 Jan 2011, at 2:34 AM, cityoftheasleep wrote:

> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Forró <dan.for@...>> wrote:
>> By statistical research only 4% of music consumers listen to
>> classical music. Huge amount of this is music of 18th and 19th
>> century, and from this only few popular pieces of few popular
>> composers. Thinking about this, how many percent can listen to and
>> enjoy music of 20th century? And how many from it enjoy contemporary
>> music? Avantguard and experimental music? And from this, how many
>> will like microtonal music? There's a very long and winding road to
>> get even 1/10000 of listeners to our side.
>
> Not all of us are making music in what would be considered the
> "classical" tradition. Not that I expect those of us that make
> electronic music or rock have better chances of hitting it "big"
> with something microtonal, but perhaps there is at least a slightly
> wider audience who might be likely to stumble upon us. Electronic
> music consumers are notorious for their ravenous appetites for new
> and obscure music. Of course, as Carl pointed out, they're also an
> audience ill-suited to actually appreciate the alternative
> intonations, on account of the fact that much electronic music
> disregards pitch almost entirely. Kind of a sad catch-22, I suppose.
>
> -Igs

🔗Daniel Forró <dan.for@...>

On 9 Jan 2011, at 3:12 AM, Michael wrote:

> Igs>"Of course, as Carl pointed out, they're also an audience ill-> suited to
> actually appreciate the alternative intonations, on account of the > fact that
> much electronic music disregards pitch almost entirely."
>
> It's true...there's a lot of electronica out there that focuses > on rhythm and
> texture rather than intonation. But in genres like funk house, > deep house, and
> trip hop...jazz and funk influences (including focus on advanced > chords and
> intonations) are often there. Ditto for ambient D&B or anything > that comes from
> BT (who is classically trained, and sounds like it...but is also > very popular).
>
> In vocal and melodic trance, in fact, the melodies usually take > precedence
> over textures and are right up there in priority with rhythms (or > even higher
> valued than rhythms).
>
> Take for example the extremely popular dance song (which borrows a
> melodic-trance-friendly chord progression), Cascada - Everytime We > Touch.
> Listen to the chords carefully...they really are pretty developed and
> progressive, not a four chord wonder at all.
>
> Now listen to the "Candlelight Remix"
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37tMe5K7vsI...it's almost > unrecognizable as being
> based on electronica and easily passable as a strong melodic > ballad. Far as d&b
> type mash ups...try the classic trance track "Finished Symphony" by > Hybrid
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ayn0Yg-TH4. Or Way Out West's the > Gift
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSJTIv4ZNvI. Or Opus III's "It's a > Fine Day"
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjIPzyVlK60. On ATB's 9PM till I come
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ri6Efk1SPJc.
>
> Don't get me wrong...a lot of top 40 electronica has no stress on
> intonation. However if you want to talk about tracks that have > survived the
> test of time and remained classics, rather than just been fads for > a short
> period...a huge amount of classic electronica tracks, in fact, have > huge melodic
> and intonation elements.

..... which are style dependent and style creating. Change them for microtonal and you destroy them. Result: they will be not accepted by fans of that style.

Daniel Forro

🔗Daniel Forró <dan.for@...>

On 9 Jan 2011, at 3:22 AM, Michael wrote:

> Igs>"Indeed, but I can assure you not one of us here is proud of > this effect of
> our culture. We are all but forced to isolate and pigeon-hole > ourselves because
> of the use of this word "microtonal". It is a great shame."
> For the record, I'm not proud of it either. In fact, I think we > need to
> change things here first...by and large because
> A) We have a bad problem with intolerance toward microtonallity. > Why not fix
> the problem at its source?
> B) Much of the world imitates us...and, in turn, imitates our problem!
> ...I just believe...we have to push Western ears along slowly in > the right
> direction and compromise a lot in our presentation at first (though > not our
> ultimate goal)...otherwise they'll just dismiss us a lunatics and > we'll be left
> with virtually no influences. For the record, my new scales > feature a whole lot
> of 11 and even some 15-limit as extra intervals...they are hardly > "Western
> compliant" in a lot of ways.

Funny attitude. First: why microtonality should be "the right direction". It's just one of possibility in huge ocean of music.

Second: why we musician should care about public, or something like success. This is the last thing artist should do. Public must follow us composers. If the composition is good, they will follow us, and it's not important if such work is microtonal or not.

Daniel Forro

🔗Daniel Forró <dan.for@...>

On 9 Jan 2011, at 5:55 AM, Carl Lumma wrote:

>> Not all of us are making music in what would be considered the
>> "classical" tradition. Not that I expect those of us that make
>> electronic music or rock have better chances of hitting it "big" with
>> something microtonal, but perhaps there is at least a slightly wider
>> audience who might be likely to stumble upon us. Electronic music
>> consumers are notorious for their ravenous appetites for new and
>> obscure music. Of course, as Carl pointed out, they're also an
>> audience ill-suited to actually appreciate the alternative
>> intonations, on account of the fact that much electronic music
>> disregards pitch almost entirely. Kind of a sad catch-22, I suppose.
>>
>> -Igs
>
> The genre is a natural for microtonalism, and I've been suggesting
> for years that microtonality is likely to get its biggest popular
> start in electronica (and in fact, it has been more adopted there
> than elsewhere), for several reasons
>
> 1. It is forgiving, in the way I mentioned with respect to pitch.
> The relatively simple structures don't often have comma problems,
> etc. etc. This makes it relatively easy to adopt microtonal
> tunings. Yes, as you say, it also matters less, but you can't
> have cake and eat it. The average electronic musician could
> probably switch to something like 19 in an afternoon.

But they will not do this.

>
> 2. The audience is forgiving. While I criticized them for not
> being able to do analytic listening, in the past I've praised them
> for their openness. He who does not listen analytically hears
> everything as a timbre. And that's also a lot less judgmental.
> Many fans of electronica have very refined tastes in listening
> to timbre -- they characterize the music in terms of "sound".
> If it sounds cool, they will dig it. They will not balk that the
> sixths sound wrong because they are not in 12-ET, as some
> conservatory-trained musicians might.
>
> Ok, two reasons. -C.

I don't think. There's same type of style segregacy, snobbery, non-tolerancy and closeness as well among Italian opera or Bach lovers as among hip-hop listeners.

Daniel Forro

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

Daniel wrote:

>..... which are style dependent and style creating. Change them for
>microtonal and you destroy them. Result: they will be not accepted by
>fans of that style.
[snip]
>but I don't think they will accept strange out-of-tune melodies,
>chords or harmonic progressions.

Put Marcus Satellite on at any rave and I promise no one will
complain.
http://www.cdbaby.com/Artist/MarcusSatellite

It is filled with strange melodies and chord progressions.

>Funny attitude. First: why microtonality should be "the right
>direction". It's just one of possibility in huge ocean of music.

Microtonality is just the idea of individual artists (rather
than entire cultures) exploring the possibilities of intonation.
Before, the resources available to the composer did not include
intonation in any rich sense. With microtonality they do.
I do not know if it is the "right" direction, but it is certainly
an empowering direction and a direction that sets the stage for
more variety in music, and more subtly in harmony and melody.

>Second: why we musician should care about public, or something
>like success. This is the last thing artist should do.

Here I completely agree.

-Carl

🔗Daniel Forró <dan.for@...>

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

Carl>"Put Marcus Satellite on at any rave and I promise no one will
complain.
http://www.cdbaby.com/Artist/MarcusSatellite"

+100 on the Marcus Satellite suggestion.
Even though I'm constantly under the gun for being to too critical of what can
qualify as publically-accessible microtonal music...agree.
Obvious Marcus is a very smooth composer and a whole lot of the production,
mixing, arrangement really is pro quality as are the melodies/counterpoint/etc.

Marcus also seems to pick some very good (IMVHO) scales IE Wilson's Hexanies
6-tone scale...with lots of strong chords available...and yet still fits in
those token "weird" chords that make his work sound so fresh and xenharmonic.
For his tracks...and I do think it helps him a lot even if it's not the whole
deal.

You all on the list may want to try this song from
Marcus...http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/marcussatellite2. Silky smooth, bright,
playful, intelligent, and full of high energy breakbeats....you could almost
convince someone trance titan/rave scene hero BT wrote it. :-D

Daniel>"Second: why we musician should care about public, or something
>like success. This is the last thing artist should do."

The flip-side argument is "why should we just sit here saying everything is OK
when much of the music world is ignoring our hard work and we're pretty sure
this stuff has potential?".

You know...Marcus is not really successful either, far as being rich and
famous. And neither is (even) Neil Haverstick. But I dare you to show their
records to non-microtonal musicians without having a good few of them say "now
that is nifty!" or at least show some form of respect for them and say "it's a
bit off the deep end...but they really do seem to know what they are doing".

Far too often musicians I've run into think microtonalists have their heads up
theirs and need to get a clue IE that microtonalism is what happens to people
who don't/can't succeed at "real" music. And such is a reputation I really wish
us microtonalists will aim to avoid...not that we aim to be "famous" at all
(which in many ways is contrary to the nature of our art), but that we aim to
make our art at least "respectable" as an art.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

Gene>"To me, this is like people used to writing poems in Basic English
wondering if using the full English vocabulary is the right way to go."

Exactly!

I also see microtonality as an extension of existing tonality (in the same way
advanced English is an extension of Basic English), rather than some sort of
creepy "anti-tonality".
It's really sad if people on here actually believe microtonallity is
actually a sort of "art of chaos" similar to what all too many musicians who
hear it for the first time impulsively decide it is...it's like we actually have
come to believe our worst skeptics and given up.

>"Jeez, fellas, you've kind of exhausted Basic English after all these
>centuries, haven't you?"
In the same way...I find I have a much tougher time composing under 12TET
then in my new scales...which are in many ways extensions of 12TET and even have
at least one mode within a few cents of the quarter comma meantone diatonic
scale.

I feel much the same way a 12TET musician would feel if he could only, say,
use 5 notes of the seven in each key IE pentatonic scale.

Sure you could say "oh but in the 7 note version you can make sour/wrong
chords, unlike the pentatonic version, and the possibility of dissonance there
is demonic and...." That's typically the kind of argument I hear against
microtonallity...that there are too many ways to "go wrong" for composers and
too likely such "mistakes" in songs will make it to listeners.
But the flip side is "how many original ideas can you get with the missing
notes...before you end up with something sounding largely copied and barely
original? Thank the Lord we aren't still stuck in something so simple as
pentatonics or, perhaps even "worse", Gregorian Chant.

I think the advantages of convincing musicians to go beyond 12TET....are
similar in magnitude to the advantages of the diatonic scale over the
pentatonic...and the increasing difficulties also similar. But would it be
worth it and would most musicians, given the chance, ultimately welcome the
change once they've seen what it can do? I have virtually no doubt...

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗Daniel Forró <dan.for@...>

On 13 Jan 2011, at 3:41 AM, Michael wrote:
>
> Exactly!
>
> I also see microtonality as an extension of existing tonality (in
> the same way
> advanced English is an extension of Basic English), rather than
> some sort of
> creepy "anti-tonality".

Rather conservative approach. Tonal music in fact reached its peak
with Richard Wagner... But of course it's still used, and it's still
usable. And can even improved or shifted to new level using
microtonality. See my last sentence...

> It's really sad if people on here actually believe
> microtonallity is
> actually a sort of "art of chaos" similar to what all too many
> musicians who
> hear it for the first time impulsively decide it is...it's like we
> actually have
> come to believe our worst skeptics and given up.

I don't think microtonality is art of chaos, main task of composer
is to "organize" tones, to bring some order into chaos. But chaos and
randomness can be part of order if used intentionally.

>
>> "Jeez, fellas, you've kind of exhausted Basic English after all these
>> centuries, haven't you?"
> In the same way...I find I have a much tougher time composing
> under 12TET
> then in my new scales...which are in many ways extensions of 12TET
> and even have
> at least one mode within a few cents of the quarter comma meantone
> diatonic
> scale.

Yes, it's more difficult to compose and find something new in 12TET
because lot of possibilities and combinations were used before.

On the other side unable people without knowledge of music can hide
in the world of microtonality and pretend some ability. For sure not
for money, just because it became fashionable.

>
> I feel much the same way a 12TET musician would feel if he could
> only, say,
> use 5 notes of the seven in each key IE pentatonic scale.

Intentional limitations are good for inspiration and stimulating
creativity, I use this attitude in composition. Stravinski would
agree with me :-)

>
> Sure you could say "oh but in the 7 note version you can make
> sour/wrong
> chords, unlike the pentatonic version, and the possibility of
> dissonance there
> is demonic and...." That's typically the kind of argument I hear
> against
> microtonallity...that there are too many ways to "go wrong" for
> composers and
> too likely such "mistakes" in songs will make it to listeners.

Never heard such complains. People interested in microtonality are
happy to have a lot more possibilities as composers or listeners.
There's nothing like mistake in music composition concerning used
material, and mistakes in compositional process can be even used
intentionally.

It's funny to suppose that many common listeners who are unable to
distinguish major third from minor will complain about commatic
"mistakes".

> But the flip side is "how many original ideas can you get with
> the missing
> notes...before you end up with something sounding largely copied
> and barely
> original? Thank the Lord we aren't still stuck in something so
> simple as
> pentatonics or, perhaps even "worse", Gregorian Chant.
>

I'm sorry, but you are wrong, because evidently you have no knowledge
about Gregorian Chant. After some deeper study you will be surprised
how complex and rich music it is. I have studied few years and it's a
great base even for contemporary composition.

Same with pentatonics, there are many things good composer can do
with it.

BTW development of music was not linear (like development of
language), so it's not possible to argument that earlier, older music
is worse because it's underdevelopped, or more simple than later
music. We can find very complex, interesting and inspirative things
in some historical periods or made by some experimental composers.
Those people found very original things and used them to their
limits, which could lead them to very typical closed style and cul-de-
sac. They were always ahead of their times. And later some of main-
stream composers of synthetic type used some of their principles in
synthesis with lot of other ideas.

I personally consider those experimental composers to be my living
contemporary colleagues.

> I think the advantages of convincing musicians to go beyond
> 12TET....are
> similar in magnitude to the advantages of the diatonic scale over the
> pentatonic...and the increasing difficulties also similar. But
> would it be
> worth it and would most musicians, given the chance, ultimately
> welcome the
> change once they've seen what it can do? I have virtually no doubt...

In music everything is usable. Microtonality, chromatics, diatonics
and pentatonics coexist together. We can't say pentatonics is dead
and unusable because it's older than diatonics which offered more
possibilities, or diatonics is dead because "better" chromatics came,
and now all this is dead and unusable old junk because almighty
microtonality came...

Daniel Forro

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Daniel Forró <dan.for@...>

On 13 Jan 2011, at 2:35 AM, genewardsmith wrote:

>
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Forró <dan.for@...>
> wrote:
>> But I would hesitate to call it "right direction".
>
> I wouldn't for me. It fills my head with ideas; I could not work in
> any other way (I tried 12et, so I know.) To me, this is like people
> used to writing poems in Basic English wondering if using the full
> English vocabulary is the right way to go. Jeez, fellas, you've
> kind of exhausted Basic English after all these centuries, haven't
> you?

I don't think we can compare development of English with development
of music. Language progress and changes are more linear than music
development which was more in jumps, and older music styles coexisted
together. Older language goes out of use and looks funny when used.
But there's nothing wrong with Gregorian chant, or music 600 or 300
years old. It's not considered old junk. Even today we listen to such
music, enjoy it and composers can use that old principles and rules
as they are or in some modernized way.

Besides we can find lot of very complex things in some early music.
Try Ars subtilior, Machaut, Gesualdo, Dowland, Purcell, Scarlatti,
Rejcha..., not to mention people like Debussy, Skriabin, Schönberg,
Varese, Partch, Ligeti... It's not dead music just because it's old.

Daniel Forro

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

>"On the other side unable people without knowledge of music can hide in the
>world of microtonality and pretend some ability. For sure not for money, just
>because it became fashionable."

But you see...that's the sad fact. That people often frame the "standards"
for microtonality in such a way people can get away with that. We all too often
seem to say "microtonal = good" and leave the standards at that.

Personally...I'm very critical. Granted, I rate songs largely by the
ability to balance tension (definitely not the only way to encourage
"quality")...
But the good side of this (IMVHO) is that to do that one either has to know
theory by ear or say by just intonation or by recurrent sequences (where often
the tension stays relatively constant...neither very consonant nor dissonant):
it can't be faked!

Even with songs like Igs's, which are composition-ally very well done and
usually within JI theory, I will point out anything that feels shaky vis-a-vis a
12TET piece done by someone who genuinely knows what they are doing
theory-wise. So for example...even some of Igs's melodically and phrase-wise
very well composed songs I'll still admit I'm scratching my head due to certain
aspects of the tuning he selected.

So you'd better bet when I hear something that feels unstable IE someone
jamming on random keys in 19TET after they heard it was a "popular" tuning
saying they are "trying to create an alternative world of tension" I'm going to
say "well...you met your goal...but it doesn't sound like you are doing anything
well-planned far as music theory".

Me>"I feel much the same way a 12TET musician would feel if he could only,
say, use 5 notes of the seven in each key IE pentatonic scale."
Daniel>"Intentional limitations are good for inspiration and stimulating
creativity, I use this attitude in composition. Stravinski would agree with me
:-)
For inspiring short parts of a song (IE basing a "complex sounding" part of a
tetrachord and inversions of it), sure, but for a limitation for the whole
song?! I seriously have my doubts... I have yet to hear a Stravinski song that
doesn't ultimately cover a plethora of chords...not to mention (usually) keys IE
bi-tonality.

Daniel>"Never heard such complains. People interested in microtonality are happy
to have a lot more possibilities as composers or listeners. "
Of course the ones "on board" are...but the counter-question is...how many
people "jumped overboard" before they could become a part of said group soon as
they realized how much more complexity they "might" have to deal with?

>"It's funny to suppose that many common listeners who are unable to distinguish
>major third from minor will complain about commatic "mistakes"."
The flip side is major and minor both use relatively simple dyads...and the
dissonance difference between those sets of dyads, at least to my ears, is very
minor to, say, that of a wolf fifth (IE one 20 cents or so too low).

>"I'm sorry, but you are wrong, because evidently you have no knowledge about
>Gregorian Chant. After some deeper study you will be surprised how complex and
>rich music it is. "
Maybe I just haven't heard enough of it? From the few examples I heard it was
just some very simple, very pure sounding chords and I heard its use of
intervals used was limited to only the purest few IE 2/1,3/2,4/3...

>"BTW development of music was not linear (like development of language), so
>it's not possible to argument that earlier, older music is worse because it's
>underdevelopped, or more simple than later music."

From what I've heard...after the 1900's or so the general state of music
actually began to get simpler on the average. I'm no music history buff...but
isn't it true that at some time in the past (I think medieval?!) there were
actually many people who believed tri-tones and wolf fifths were actually
created by the devil and thus completely avoided them in songs thus making for
scales with only very simple intervals?

Then again, I know some of the scales and forms the Greeks invented far before
that were anything but simple...and often had 7+ tone scales and hints they used
polyphony and/or full chords.

>"In music everything is usable. Microtonality, chromatics, diatonics and
>pentatonics coexist together. We can't say pentatonics is dead and unusable..."
Agreed, but I'm saying I don't believe EXCLUSIVELY limiting oneself to a
certain limited style, scale...actually helps one be as productive musically as
they could be. Pentatonics, for example, I agree can be very useful for
inspiration or individual parts...but saying all things must be limited to
pentatonics I believe can only hurt. And same goes for 12TET vs. microtonal IE
12TET may be useful for inspiration but saying something like "there's no reason
for popular musicians to go beyond it for inspiration or adding to what they
found in 12TET" does not make any sense to me as to how it can help musicians.

>"We can't say pentatonics is dead and unusable because it's older than diatonics
>which offered more
>
possibilities, or diatonics is dead because "better" chromatics came, and now
all this is dead and unusable old junk because almighty microtonality came..."

Of course not, but would you honestly tell a musician "stick to only
pentatonics for all your songs...you'll produce better music that way?" or
"stick to 12TET...because microtonality's extra tones can only help you make
mistakes vs. what people expect/want to hear vs. 12TET?"

And of course, as mentioned before, microtonal music IE 31TET was commonly
used before 12TET took over...like you said older does not always mean less
advanced. I don't think the battle is about newer vs. older...but rather that
the way to stay "safe" far as making more publically well received music is
A) To stick with only systems popularly used in the present...after all if it's
not broke don't fix it
OR
B) To say that any system, including microtonality and from the past, present,
or cutting edge IE new-microtonal scales...can lead to more compositional
freedom
......and that the obstacle is.........
C) People may give up on microtonality thinking "No thanks, 12TET is hard
enough..." My brother even said this...and he's a professional jazz guitarist
(not exactly the easiest technical genre).

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