Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup makemicromusic John's worst scale

The novelty of the 'worst scale' is probably wearing off a bit now but I thought I would have a crack at it out of curiosity.

I listed all 20 notes that (I consider) go with 1/1 in harmony. These are: 9/8, 8/7, 7/6, 6/5, 5/4, 9/7, 4/3, 11/8, 7/5, 10/7, 3/2, 11/7, 8/5, 5/3, 12/7, 7/4, 9/5, 11/6, 13/7 and 2/1.

Next I identified all notes that are exactly midway between each successive pair of good notes so that the 'bad' notes have the maximum deviation from the nearest good note below them and the nearest good note above them.

Then I chose 12 notes out of 20 that have the maximum deviation from a good note. Here's what I got...

0.0 cents
102.0 cents
217.6 c
291.3 c
351.0
466.6
524.7
659.8
742.3
849.1
993.2
1135.9
1200.0

So Chris, Igs and Michael, wanna have a go at this scale?

John.

🔗cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

Igs>"I'll tune it up ASAP and see what comes out. Man, pretty soon I'll have a
whole album of "worst scale" songs. Anyone else want to throw a log on the fire?

Here are two. One is made by alternating between 5ths of 1.4566 and
1.486...nearing my least favorite 5ths of about 16/11 and 49/33. It does have a
not-so-bad flat major 3rd about 10 cents flat...but the rest is pretty "safely"
anti-harmonic. :-D

! E:\fortheloveofa5th.scl
!
for the love of a 5th
9
!
137.32199
274.16863
411.01527
547.86191
651.12570
788.44769
925.29433
1062.14097
1200.00000

As for the second "bad" tuning suggestion, taking more-or-less my un-favorite
5th of 49/33^X IE making it into an ET gives 14TET.
14TET, guess what...also seems to give a lot of nasty looking dyads and
neither a decent major 3rd or 5th. Though (Igs) you seem to be a TET-buff so,
I'm guessing you've already tackled the challenge of 14TET (and, if so, what
does it sound like)?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

I expect to be smoked by Igs again - but sure - I'll give it a go.

Like any good parent my ugliest children are my favorites. And man do I have
some musical Frankensteins!! :-)

Chris

On Thu, Jan 6, 2011 at 5:20 PM, john777music <jfos777@...> wrote:

>
>
> The novelty of the 'worst scale' is probably wearing off a bit now but I
> thought I would have a crack at it out of curiosity.
>
> I listed all 20 notes that (I consider) go with 1/1 in harmony. These are:
> 9/8, 8/7, 7/6, 6/5, 5/4, 9/7, 4/3, 11/8, 7/5, 10/7, 3/2, 11/7, 8/5, 5/3,
> 12/7, 7/4, 9/5, 11/6, 13/7 and 2/1.
>
> Next I identified all notes that are exactly midway between each successive
> pair of good notes so that the 'bad' notes have the maximum deviation from
> the nearest good note below them and the nearest good note above them.
>
> Then I chose 12 notes out of 20 that have the maximum deviation from a good
> note. Here's what I got...
>
> 0.0 cents
> 102.0 cents
> 217.6 c
> 291.3 c
> 351.0
> 466.6
> 524.7
> 659.8
> 742.3
> 849.1
> 993.2
> 1135.9
> 1200.0
>
> So Chris, Igs and Michael, wanna have a go at this scale?
>
> John.
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

Ok,

This is an improvisational piece that uses a modified pianoteq preset that I
placed deep in a concert hall reverb. It is *meant* to be ambient with a
chewy melodic nugget.
So, I offer a smaller file for the impatient that gets you to the melodic
part 3 minutes quicker. I personally love the chords ringing out. If I had
more time I'd orchestrate this one. I'll provide a score upon request.

the scala file I used
http://micro.soonlabel.com/bad/bad-john.scl

Full version
http://micro.soonlabel.com/bad/bad-bad-john.mp3

Abbreviated version
http://micro.soonlabel.com/bad/impatient-bad-bad-john.mp3

Its kinda weird - the tuning is in F. It took a bit to find the melodic
portion - I found it by piecing together the chords. 2 harmonic aids evident
when performing the composition - minor 7ths were generally good, F had many
acceptable dyads partners. PLEASE NOTE - I don't always go for consonance -
I like variety - some of the dissonance is truly what I wanted - I changed
the notes of 1 chord only - and adjusted 1 melodic note and adjust the
length for a few other chords.

Chris

On Thu, Jan 6, 2011 at 8:29 PM, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>wrote:

> I expect to be smoked by Igs again - but sure - I'll give it a go.
>
> Like any good parent my ugliest children are my favorites. And man do I
> have some musical Frankensteins!! :-)
>
> Chris
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 6, 2011 at 5:20 PM, john777music <jfos777@...> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> The novelty of the 'worst scale' is probably wearing off a bit now but I
>> thought I would have a crack at it out of curiosity.
>>
>> I listed all 20 notes that (I consider) go with 1/1 in harmony. These are:
>> 9/8, 8/7, 7/6, 6/5, 5/4, 9/7, 4/3, 11/8, 7/5, 10/7, 3/2, 11/7, 8/5, 5/3,
>> 12/7, 7/4, 9/5, 11/6, 13/7 and 2/1.
>>
>> Next I identified all notes that are exactly midway between each
>> successive pair of good notes so that the 'bad' notes have the maximum
>> deviation from the nearest good note below them and the nearest good note
>> above them.
>>
>> Then I chose 12 notes out of 20 that have the maximum deviation from a
>> good note. Here's what I got...
>>
>> 0.0 cents
>> 102.0 cents
>> 217.6 c
>> 291.3 c
>> 351.0
>> 466.6
>> 524.7
>> 659.8
>> 742.3
>> 849.1
>> 993.2
>> 1135.9
>> 1200.0
>>
>> So Chris, Igs and Michael, wanna have a go at this scale?
>>
>> John.
>>
>>
>>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

Well, I am curious as to how this was received. - Especially your opinion
John.

Chris

On Thu, Jan 6, 2011 at 10:26 PM, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@gmail.com>wrote:

> Ok,
>
> This is an improvisational piece that uses a modified pianoteq preset that
> I placed deep in a concert hall reverb. It is *meant* to be ambient with a
> chewy melodic nugget.
> So, I offer a smaller file for the impatient that gets you to the melodic
> part 3 minutes quicker. I personally love the chords ringing out. If I had
> more time I'd orchestrate this one. I'll provide a score upon request.
>
> the scala file I used
> http://micro.soonlabel.com/bad/bad-john.scl
>
> Full version
> http://micro.soonlabel.com/bad/bad-bad-john.mp3
>
> Abbreviated version
> http://micro.soonlabel.com/bad/impatient-bad-bad-john.mp3
>
> Its kinda weird - the tuning is in F. It took a bit to find the melodic
> portion - I found it by piecing together the chords. 2 harmonic aids evident
> when performing the composition - minor 7ths were generally good, F had many
> acceptable dyads partners. PLEASE NOTE - I don't always go for consonance -
> I like variety - some of the dissonance is truly what I wanted - I changed
> the notes of 1 chord only - and adjusted 1 melodic note and adjust the
> length for a few other chords.
>
> Chris
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 6, 2011 at 8:29 PM, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>wrote:
>
>> I expect to be smoked by Igs again - but sure - I'll give it a go.
>>
>> Like any good parent my ugliest children are my favorites. And man do I
>> have some musical Frankensteins!! :-)
>>
>> Chris
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 6, 2011 at 5:20 PM, john777music <jfos777@...> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The novelty of the 'worst scale' is probably wearing off a bit now but I
>>> thought I would have a crack at it out of curiosity.
>>>
>>> I listed all 20 notes that (I consider) go with 1/1 in harmony. These
>>> are: 9/8, 8/7, 7/6, 6/5, 5/4, 9/7, 4/3, 11/8, 7/5, 10/7, 3/2, 11/7, 8/5,
>>> 5/3, 12/7, 7/4, 9/5, 11/6, 13/7 and 2/1.
>>>
>>> Next I identified all notes that are exactly midway between each
>>> successive pair of good notes so that the 'bad' notes have the maximum
>>> deviation from the nearest good note below them and the nearest good note
>>> above them.
>>>
>>> Then I chose 12 notes out of 20 that have the maximum deviation from a
>>> good note. Here's what I got...
>>>
>>> 0.0 cents
>>> 102.0 cents
>>> 217.6 c
>>> 291.3 c
>>> 351.0
>>> 466.6
>>> 524.7
>>> 659.8
>>> 742.3
>>> 849.1
>>> 993.2
>>> 1135.9
>>> 1200.0
>>>
>>> So Chris, Igs and Michael, wanna have a go at this scale?
>>>
>>> John.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗john777music <jfos777@...>

Well, sweet it ain't, which was the point. I listened to the long version twice, it's a bit slow. I kept thinking "c'mon, c'mon, c'mon, play the next note". I would like to hear a piece with more chords (more often) with three or four or more notes. There's a VERY jarring chord about one third of the way through the piece.
The melody (apart from a few small "runs" if that's the right word) definitely sounded unresolved with notes that didn't quite sit well with the others.
Fancy having another go? A bit faster with more chords?

Someone (I think it was Michael) posted a 14 TET piece which sounded to me a lot worse (which I think was the intention).

John.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
>
> Well, I am curious as to how this was received. - Especially your opinion
> John.
>
> Chris
>
> On Thu, Jan 6, 2011 at 10:26 PM, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>wrote:
>
> > Ok,
> >
> > This is an improvisational piece that uses a modified pianoteq preset that
> > I placed deep in a concert hall reverb. It is *meant* to be ambient with a
> > chewy melodic nugget.
> > So, I offer a smaller file for the impatient that gets you to the melodic
> > part 3 minutes quicker. I personally love the chords ringing out. If I had
> > more time I'd orchestrate this one. I'll provide a score upon request.
> >
> > the scala file I used
> > http://micro.soonlabel.com/bad/bad-john.scl
> >
> > Full version
> > http://micro.soonlabel.com/bad/bad-bad-john.mp3
> >
> > Abbreviated version
> > http://micro.soonlabel.com/bad/impatient-bad-bad-john.mp3
> >
> > Its kinda weird - the tuning is in F. It took a bit to find the melodic
> > portion - I found it by piecing together the chords. 2 harmonic aids evident
> > when performing the composition - minor 7ths were generally good, F had many
> > acceptable dyads partners. PLEASE NOTE - I don't always go for consonance -
> > I like variety - some of the dissonance is truly what I wanted - I changed
> > the notes of 1 chord only - and adjusted 1 melodic note and adjust the
> > length for a few other chords.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 6, 2011 at 8:29 PM, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>wrote:
> >
> >> I expect to be smoked by Igs again - but sure - I'll give it a go.
> >>
> >> Like any good parent my ugliest children are my favorites. And man do I
> >> have some musical Frankensteins!! :-)
> >>
> >> Chris
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, Jan 6, 2011 at 5:20 PM, john777music <jfos777@...> wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> The novelty of the 'worst scale' is probably wearing off a bit now but I
> >>> thought I would have a crack at it out of curiosity.
> >>>
> >>> I listed all 20 notes that (I consider) go with 1/1 in harmony. These
> >>> are: 9/8, 8/7, 7/6, 6/5, 5/4, 9/7, 4/3, 11/8, 7/5, 10/7, 3/2, 11/7, 8/5,
> >>> 5/3, 12/7, 7/4, 9/5, 11/6, 13/7 and 2/1.
> >>>
> >>> Next I identified all notes that are exactly midway between each
> >>> successive pair of good notes so that the 'bad' notes have the maximum
> >>> deviation from the nearest good note below them and the nearest good note
> >>> above them.
> >>>
> >>> Then I chose 12 notes out of 20 that have the maximum deviation from a
> >>> good note. Here's what I got...
> >>>
> >>> 0.0 cents
> >>> 102.0 cents
> >>> 217.6 c
> >>> 291.3 c
> >>> 351.0
> >>> 466.6
> >>> 524.7
> >>> 659.8
> >>> 742.3
> >>> 849.1
> >>> 993.2
> >>> 1135.9
> >>> 1200.0
> >>>
> >>> So Chris, Igs and Michael, wanna have a go at this scale?
> >>>
> >>> John.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

John>"Someone (I think it was Michael) posted a 14 TET piece which sounded to me
a lot worse (which I think was the intention)."

Actually, my 14TET piece was designed to see what was the best level of
consonance I could get WHILE forcing myself make 4 (and no less) note chords
through the entire piece (2 note chords + 2 notes droning from the melodies = 4
notes total droning).

I was "trying" to prove I could make 14TET sound "not much worse than
12TET"...but also trying to prove the mood chord/range under which I could do so
is rather narrow (IE basically proving there are limited mood ranges accessible
under "bad" scales, even if they can be partly made to "work"). So my point
was...there are virtues in "good" scales...but the virtue is more possible moods
with good scales...and not that "bad" scales can't work smoothly at all (they
can, just in narrow mood ranges).

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

That is extremely interesting to me.

I really felt the runs fell into a blues mode. And I felt many of the
chords, especially the very last one, was consonant.
I'm not sure if it is good or dangerous to adapt to a tuning as much as I
seem to do.

I'll be glad to give it another go. Perhaps a different timbre would help.

Chris

On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 4:45 PM, john777music <jfos777@...> wrote:

>
>
> Well, sweet it ain't, which was the point. I listened to the long version
> twice, it's a bit slow. I kept thinking "c'mon, c'mon, c'mon, play the next
> note". I would like to hear a piece with more chords (more often) with three
> or four or more notes. There's a VERY jarring chord about one third of the
> way through the piece.
> The melody (apart from a few small "runs" if that's the right word)
> definitely sounded unresolved with notes that didn't quite sit well with the
> others.
> Fancy having another go? A bit faster with more chords?
>
> Someone (I think it was Michael) posted a 14 TET piece which sounded to me
> a lot worse (which I think was the intention).
>
> John.
>
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com <MakeMicroMusic%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
> >
> > Well, I am curious as to how this was received. - Especially your opinion
> > John.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 6, 2011 at 10:26 PM, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>wrote:
>
> >
> > > Ok,
> > >
> > > This is an improvisational piece that uses a modified pianoteq preset
> that
> > > I placed deep in a concert hall reverb. It is *meant* to be ambient
> with a
> > > chewy melodic nugget.
> > > So, I offer a smaller file for the impatient that gets you to the
> melodic
> > > part 3 minutes quicker. I personally love the chords ringing out. If I
> had
> > > more time I'd orchestrate this one. I'll provide a score upon request.
> > >
> > > the scala file I used
> > > http://micro.soonlabel.com/bad/bad-john.scl
> > >
> > > Full version
> > > http://micro.soonlabel.com/bad/bad-bad-john.mp3
> > >
> > > Abbreviated version
> > > http://micro.soonlabel.com/bad/impatient-bad-bad-john.mp3
> > >
> > > Its kinda weird - the tuning is in F. It took a bit to find the melodic
> > > portion - I found it by piecing together the chords. 2 harmonic aids
> evident
> > > when performing the composition - minor 7ths were generally good, F had
> many
> > > acceptable dyads partners. PLEASE NOTE - I don't always go for
> consonance -
> > > I like variety - some of the dissonance is truly what I wanted - I
> changed
> > > the notes of 1 chord only - and adjusted 1 melodic note and adjust the
> > > length for a few other chords.
> > >
> > > Chris
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jan 6, 2011 at 8:29 PM, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>wrote:
>
> > >
> > >> I expect to be smoked by Igs again - but sure - I'll give it a go.
> > >>
> > >> Like any good parent my ugliest children are my favorites. And man do
> I
> > >> have some musical Frankensteins!! :-)
> > >>
> > >> Chris
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Thu, Jan 6, 2011 at 5:20 PM, john777music <jfos777@...> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> The novelty of the 'worst scale' is probably wearing off a bit now
> but I
> > >>> thought I would have a crack at it out of curiosity.
> > >>>
> > >>> I listed all 20 notes that (I consider) go with 1/1 in harmony. These
> > >>> are: 9/8, 8/7, 7/6, 6/5, 5/4, 9/7, 4/3, 11/8, 7/5, 10/7, 3/2, 11/7,
> 8/5,
> > >>> 5/3, 12/7, 7/4, 9/5, 11/6, 13/7 and 2/1.
> > >>>
> > >>> Next I identified all notes that are exactly midway between each
> > >>> successive pair of good notes so that the 'bad' notes have the
> maximum
> > >>> deviation from the nearest good note below them and the nearest good
> note
> > >>> above them.
> > >>>
> > >>> Then I chose 12 notes out of 20 that have the maximum deviation from
> a
> > >>> good note. Here's what I got...
> > >>>
> > >>> 0.0 cents
> > >>> 102.0 cents
> > >>> 217.6 c
> > >>> 291.3 c
> > >>> 351.0
> > >>> 466.6
> > >>> 524.7
> > >>> 659.8
> > >>> 742.3
> > >>> 849.1
> > >>> 993.2
> > >>> 1135.9
> > >>> 1200.0
> > >>>
> > >>> So Chris, Igs and Michael, wanna have a go at this scale?
> > >>>
> > >>> John.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗john777music <jfos777@...>

Michael, these are your very words...(msg#24283)...

"14TET, IMVHO, has about the worst dyads of any small-to-mid-sized TET tuning...and I could feel it when composing...finding strong chords is a real chore and very few I found were usable. And, even with them, the song has a ghastly feel..."

I agree.

You also said "I was "trying" to prove I could make 14TET sound "not much worse than 12TET".

I don't think 14TET could ever be as good as 12TET. As I said in an earlier post I think that 12TET works so well because a Perfect Fourth and a Perfect Fifth are available in all keys within 2 cents accuracy. The 4th and 5th are clearly the strongest intervals over a one octave range (excluding the unison and octave). There are no good 4ths or 5ths in 14TET.

John.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:
>
> John>"Someone (I think it was Michael) posted a 14 TET piece which sounded to me
> a lot worse (which I think was the intention)."
>
> Actually, my 14TET piece was designed to see what was the best level of
> consonance I could get WHILE forcing myself make 4 (and no less) note chords
> through the entire piece (2 note chords + 2 notes droning from the melodies = 4
> notes total droning).
>
> I was "trying" to prove I could make 14TET sound "not much worse than
> 12TET"...but also trying to prove the mood chord/range under which I could do so
> is rather narrow (IE basically proving there are limited mood ranges accessible
> under "bad" scales, even if they can be partly made to "work"). So my point
> was...there are virtues in "good" scales...but the virtue is more possible moods
> with good scales...and not that "bad" scales can't work smoothly at all (they
> can, just in narrow mood ranges).
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

Me>"14TET, IMVHO, has about the worst dyads of any small-to-mid-sized TET
tuning...and I could feel it when composing...finding strong chords is a real
chore and very few I found were usable. And, even with them, the song has a
ghastly feel..."
John>"I agree."

Me>"You also said "I was "trying" to prove I could make 14TET sound "not much
worse than 12TET"."
I meant ALA the way Igs makes listenable songs out of terrible tunings. I
wanted to see if I could do "as good a job at achieving stability using 4-tone
drones in 14TET as Igs would have done". I think you're right though...maybe it
can't be so good as 12TET...but I at least wanted to try and approach that
goal...

The overall goal, again, was also to see what range of mood was capable with
14TET...my result was "very narrow"...but perhaps that has to do with my lack of
compositional skill.
-----------------------------

Perhaps this is a good time for a challenge...Igs...would you like to take a
crack at composing a song in 14TET full of relatively stable-sounding 4-note
tetrads? It should be fascinating to see how far you get...

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:
> Perhaps this is a good time for a challenge...Igs...would you like to take a
> crack at composing a song in 14TET full of relatively stable-sounding 4-note
> tetrads? It should be fascinating to see how far you get...

Tetrads, you say? Well, I'll throw it on the pile. I'll get to it after John's tuning, and your "bad fifths" tuning, and then I'll take a crack at 11.

But I have to say: whatever success I have with these tunings has nothing to do with compositional skill. Everything I've done so far has been improvisational, and each part done in usually no more than 3 takes. I've got no formal compositional training at all, it's just that I've spent my entire adult life "jamming" with as many people as I can, and I continue to be amazed at how well the improv skills I've learned in 12-tET carry over into other tunings.

In fact, typically when I compose things, they come out a lot "boxier" than my improvs, lacking a bit in dynamics and flow, subject to many of the same criticisms as your own works. This is why, at age 28, I've gone back to taking guitar lessons and learning some classical pieces, to get a better idea of how "real" compositions work.

But anyway, I'll give 14 a try. I quite liked the one piece I've so far written in it, on "Map of an Internal Landscape." It's called "Today the Wind Brought Regret" if you want to give it a listen.

-Igs

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

Another point

I just *love* the bell-like chordal sonorities in this "bad" tuning. Steve
Layton over at ImprovFriday used it in a "mash-up" with other composer
contributions and I think it works rather well.
http://improvfriday.ning.com/xn/detail/4162021:Comment:22898

A goal of mine is to hear these sonorities with brass. I think that will
rock.

Chris

On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 4:45 PM, john777music <jfos777@...> wrote:

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]