Blue JI Psaltery

I'm finding pentatonic scales more and more in my work and this is no exception. In this case I followed through on my thought to use pianoteq and my midi controller to tune the psaltry by matching pitches. In this case I had by ear tuned close to what you hear here and then adjusted to the closest Blue JI pitch.

download 6 megs:

http://micro.soonlabel.com/blue-tuning/blue-ji-psaltry.mp3

Here are the pitches of my psaltry in pitch class notation where C3 = middle C - relative to the Blue JI scala file as interpreted by pianoteq.

G#3
E3
C#3
B2
G#2
F#2
E2
C#2

This is *not* a spectacular piece of music - more or less an exercise and follow through on a previous thought I posted. However I'm finding it interesting that the limited resources are not as limiting as I thought before making and using the psaltry.

Chris

> (Lou Harrison got me back onto pentatonics and the more i work > with them the more i think they are greatly misunderstood and > underestimated.
working with 20 basic ones in a scale that has unequal steps. that gives me 20 x12 plus the 5 inversions. that is 1200 scales in a 12 tone system. well 5 are the same so 1195
one would hope one could say what one wanted to with that.)

Reminds me of some of the sounds one hears on instruments in southern Philippines
> Wonderful. No reason to underestimate this simple and > beautiful. It is often the most profound.

>
>
> /^_,',',',_ //^/Kraig Grady_^_,',',',_
> Mesotonal Music from:
> _'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
>
> _'''''''_^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
> Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria > <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>
>
> ',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',
>
> a momentary antenna as i turn to water
> this evaporates - an island once again
>
> I'm finding pentatonic scales more and more in my work and > this is no exception. In this case I followed through on my > thought to use pianoteq and my midi controller to tune the > psaltry by matching pitches. In this case I had by ear tuned > close to what you hear here and then adjusted to the closest > Blue JI pitch.
>
> download 6 megs:
>
> http://micro.soonlabel.com/blue-tuning/blue-ji-psaltry.mp3
>
> Here are the pitches of my psaltry in pitch class notation > where C3 = middle C - relative to the Blue JI scala file as > interpreted by pianoteq.
>
> G#3
> E3
> C#3
> B2
> G#2
> F#2
> E2
> C#2
>
> This is *not* a spectacular piece of music - more or less an > exercise and follow through on a previous thought I posted. > However I'm finding it interesting that the limited resources > are not as limiting as I thought before making and using the > psaltry.
>
> Chris
>
>

It's been a pleasure to hear the developments of the psaltry,
Chris. It seems to sound better each time! And every time it
is soothing and refreshing. -Carl

At 08:16 AM 11/17/2010, you wrote:
>I'm finding pentatonic scales more and more in my work and this is no
>exception. In this case I followed through on my thought to use
>pianoteq and my midi controller to tune the psaltry by matching
>pitches. In this case I had by ear tuned close to what you hear here
>and then adjusted to the closest Blue JI pitch.
>
>download 6 megs:
>
>http://micro.soonlabel.com/blue-tuning/blue-ji-psaltry.mp3
>
>Here are the pitches of my psaltry in pitch class notation where C3 =
>middle C - relative to the Blue JI scala file as interpreted by pianoteq.
>
>G#3
>E3
>C#3
>B2
>G#2
>F#2
>E2
>C#2
>
>This is *not* a spectacular piece of music - more or less an exercise
>and follow through on a previous thought I posted. However I'm finding
>it interesting that the limited resources are not as limiting as I
>thought before making and using the psaltry.
>
>Chris
>
>

Thank you for sharing that. I enjoy the sound of your instrument. I particularly like the crisp wooden tone. I have made myself a couple of lyres (1 has 6 strings and is electric. I use that at gigs. The other has 7 strings and is acoustic, but needs work to give a better tone) and a 5 string kantele, but I don't have any recordings yet.

Link to pictures of electric lyre and kantele:
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=329079&id=536589255&l=05acffcc71

I have mostly been tuning to 5 limit just intonation because I can do that by ear fairly easily. Occasionally I have tuned with intervals like 8/7 and sometimes got good result, but I haven't tried that on stage yet. I find it difficult enough tuning to 5 limit JI by ear in a noisy environment. I recently had to tune to 1, 16/15, 5/4, 4/3, 3/2, 8/5 while someone was playing bagpipes full blast into a microphone right next to me. To make tuning easier, I try to make the instrument isolated from the sounds in the air and use a stethoscope.

Chris:
> I'm finding pentatonic scales more and more in my work and this is no exception. In this case I followed through on my thought to use pianoteq and my midi controller to tune the psaltry by matching pitches. In this case I had by ear tuned close to what you hear here and then adjusted to the closest Blue JI pitch.
>
> download 6 megs:
>
> http://micro.soonlabel.com/blue-tuning/blue-ji-psaltry.mp3
>
Mark: I have also tried pentatonic scales on my lyres and I was quite impressed with the results. I also tried tuning to a 7 note scale devised by Michael (DJ Trance Dance) by playing the notes with Scala and tuning the lyre to them by ear, but that was on the acoustic lyre (because it's the only one with 7 strings) and I think I need to improve the timbre and make the tuning more stable to properly appreciate the subtleties of that scale (It's an irregularly tempered Dorian mode with some just intervals. It is devised to minimise the maximum deviation from the pure dyads 6/5, 5/4, 4/3, 7/5, 16/9 and 9/5 whilst keep the octave at exactly 2 and without concern for the size of semitones or major 7ths).

Chris: > This is *not* a spectacular piece of music - more or less an exercise and follow through on a previous thought I posted. However I'm finding it interesting that the limited resources are not as limiting as I thought before making and using the psaltry.

Mark: I still enjoyed listening to your piece. I also was surprised by how little I felt limitted by the paucity of notes availlable. Of course, variations on the instrument include string bending, the use of a slide (like the cosmolyres featured on this mailing list by another poster), levers to change the pitch of strings by a set amount and the adding of more strings.

Thank you for the listen and comment. I hope I don't appear rude - I
have been busy attending stuff with my family and will be for a while
which cuts into my composing and internet time.

How does it work out to be 1195 pentatonic scales Kraig? Are each of
these built vertically from a point on a JI lattice?

Thank you for your time,

Chris

On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 12:57 PM, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...> wrote:
>> (Lou Harrison got me back onto pentatonics and the more i work
>> with them the more i think they are greatly misunderstood and
>> underestimated.
> working with 20 basic ones in a scale that has unequal steps.
> that gives me 20 x12 plus the 5 inversions. that is 1200 scales
> in a 12 tone system. well 5 are the same so 1195
> one would hope one could say what one wanted to with that.)
>
> Reminds me of some of the sounds one hears on instruments in
> southern Philippines
>> Wonderful. No reason to underestimate this simple and
>> beautiful. It is often the most profound.

Thank you for the listen and comment Carl.

Chris

On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 1:34 PM, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> It's been a pleasure to hear the developments of the psaltry,
> Chris. It seems to sound better each time! And every time it
> is soothing and refreshing. -Carl
>

>
> Mark: I still enjoyed listening to your piece. I also was surprised by how little I felt limitted by the paucity of notes availlable. Of course, variations on the instrument include string bending, the use of a slide (like the cosmolyres featured on this mailing list by another poster), levers to change the pitch of strings by a set amount and the adding of more strings.

Thank you for the listen, tip, pictures and ideas!! One of the things
on my list is to mark the harmonic points on the psaltry to make it a
bit easier to find. I did buy some 30 zither tuning pegs and a chunk
of hardwood to mount them in. Unfortunately like finding time to
re-string the hammer dulcimer I've not found it yet. Way too easy to
fire up Sonar and a VSTi (or 2 or 3) with my keyboard or midi guitar
instead of the drugery of stringing. And - wow - playing hammer
dulcimer is *alot* harder then I ever imagined.

Chris

Chris: One of the things
> on my list is to mark the harmonic points on the psaltry to make it a
> bit easier to find. I did buy some 30 zither tuning pegs and a chunk
> of hardwood to mount them in. Unfortunately like finding time to
> re-string the hammer dulcimer I've not found it yet. Way too easy to
> fire up Sonar and a VSTi (or 2 or 3) with my keyboard or midi guitar
> instead of the drugery of stringing. And - wow - playing hammer
> dulcimer is *alot* harder then I ever imagined.
>
> Chris
>
Mark: I think that marking the harmonic points is a very good idea. I've been tempted to do that on some of my related instruments. Aswell as giving more notes with a different timbre, harmonics can make it easy to accurately tune to just intonation up to a limit of 7 (And higher limit if you have the skill to play higher harmonics).

Last night I experimented with my seven string lyre, putting more bridges on it and moving the bridges to tune the notes, so that (like a hammered dulcimer), each string gives more than one note. Specifically, I set it up so that each string gives 3 notes: The base note, a note an octave above the base note and a note 2 octaves above the base note.

I really really like the sound of it. All though it isn't the way I intended to solve the problem, this gives an instrument with 3 octaves, each with 7 notes in and allows immediate retuning to other 7 note an octave modes simply by retuning the 7 strings. More notes can be added to the octave by adding more strings of the right gauge. Strings can be bent to get notes in between the main notes of the mode. Bending one string raises the pitch of all 3 notes on that string by the same interval.

I will want to refine the instrument a bit, with more easily adjusted bridges (separate bridge position adjustment for each string like the bridge of an electric guitar) that stay put and add pick ups (3 bridge position Precision Bass Guitar style pickups will do for up to 8 strings. 5 would be enough for 12 notes in an octave).

Further variations could include positioning the bridges for non octave tunings, using curved bridges to allow the bowing of separate strings, having large tuning levers instead of machine heads so that you can quickly tune to another mode in the middle of a song or instrumental piece and having more than 3 notes on each string.

This is exactly the kind of instrument where marking harmonic positions would be a really good idea.

You can also play it with a slide like a cosmo lyre or bow chords, or bow single notes on the highest or lowest string (but not the strings in between because the bridges are flat at the moment). To bow chords I bow all the strings and damp the ones I don't want to hear. To bow single notes I hold my finger to the string (or hold the string between my fingers) while bowing only that string.

sorry for the length of this

The scale is a recurrent sequence so while many intervals are close none quite duplicate.
I actually use a smaller sets of pentatonics than say a 'schillinger like math number crunch might give you.
You can actually use these with any 12 tone system.

The first 19 i use are from those found within these 7 tone scales
http://anaphoria.com/modal12.pdf
these are the basic of most your north Indian scales and so i consider them without question
[in the diagrams the underline below a note signifies flattening.]

now 11 of these are also those formed if you look at the five note left out from the 7.
So this lead me to investigate all the 7 tones scales that are formed from the 19 pentatonics.
and so i west to investigate all the pentatonic available in this set of 19 heptatonics.
No only one more pentatonic was possible so i included that .
at this point i ended up with a closed set.

So each of these 20 has 5 notes , each could be the tonic so even in 12 ET one could get 100 pentatonics.
Now if each of these will sound different on a different step of a scale that has unequal size steps you get 1200.
The 20th group though is a simple whole tone of only 5 instead of 6 tones so you can see these would be duplicated.

Now i only used the L ssls pattern in the 7 tone scales.
i have figured out the s s s sl pentatonic buy haven't used them.
i have noticed that certain South Indian Heptatonics are the Reciprocal of some of these.
But i haven't exhausted the first set yet as far as exploring modulations in between.
often restricting to how one pentatonic goes to another with a heptatonic. depending on which heptatonic one has one often has many option of where one can modulate to with what i think more of a a organic set over a mathematical set.

/^_,',',',_ //^/Kraig Grady_^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

a momentary antenna as i turn to water
this evaporates - an island once again

On 20/11/10 10:09 AM, Chris Vaisvil wrote:
>
> Thank you for the listen and comment. I hope I don't appear > rude - I
> have been busy attending stuff with my family and will be for > a while
> which cuts into my composing and internet time.
>
> How does it work out to be 1195 pentatonic scales Kraig? Are > each of
> these built vertically from a point on a JI lattice?
>
> Thank you for your time,
>
> Chris
>
> On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 12:57 PM, Kraig Grady > <kraiggrady@... <mailto:kraiggrady%40anaphoria.com>> > wrote:
> >> (Lou Harrison got me back onto pentatonics and the more i work
> >> with them the more i think they are greatly misunderstood and
> >> underestimated.
> > working with 20 basic ones in a scale that has unequal steps.
> > that gives me 20 x12 plus the 5 inversions. that is 1200 scales
> > in a 12 tone system. well 5 are the same so 1195
> > one would hope one could say what one wanted to with that.)
> >
> > Reminds me of some of the sounds one hears on instruments in
> > southern Philippines
> >> Wonderful. No reason to underestimate this simple and
> >> beautiful. It is often the most profound.
>
>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...> wrote:

> The first 19 i use are from those found within these 7 tone scales
> http://anaphoria.com/modal12.pdf

I can't figure out from this what scales you are referring to. Can you define them without the use of any diagrams?

the ones that are written out on the first page
are the 7 tone scales that i take all the pentatonics from.

I will spell them out in intervals
0. 3 2 3 2 2
1. 3 3 2 2 2
2. 3 3 2 3 1
3. 4 2 2 3 1
4. 4 2 3 2 1
5. 3 2 3 3 1
6. 4 1 3 3 1
7. 4 1 4 2 1
8. 4 1 3 2 2
9. 4 1 4 2 1
10. 3 2 4 1 2
11. 4 2 3 1 2
12. 4 2 1 3 2
13. 3 3 3 1 2
14. 3 3 3 2 1
15. 4 1 1 4 2
16. 5 1 3 2 1
17. 5 1 1 4 1
18. 5 1 4 1 1
19. 5 1 2 3 1
20. 4 2 2 2 2

/^_,',',',_ //^/Kraig Grady_^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

a momentary antenna as i turn to water
this evaporates - an island once again

On 21/11/10 8:16 PM, genewardsmith wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:MakeMicroMusic%40yahoogroups.com>, Kraig Grady > <kraiggrady@...> wrote:
>
> > The first 19 i use are from those found within these 7 tone > scales
> > http://anaphoria.com/modal12.pdf
>
> I can't figure out from this what scales you are referring to. > Can you define them without the use of any diagrams?
>
>

This was quite helpful!!

Now - modulation - in common harmonic practice modulation usually enlists a
pivot of some type - something that is the same but with different meanings
in the two contexts you are modulating between.

What is the meaning melodically - and I'm assuming you are talking about a
melodic modulation between pentatonic scales.

Thanks,

Chris

On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 5:45 AM, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>wrote:

> the ones that are written out on the first page
> are the 7 tone scales that i take all the pentatonics from.
>
> I will spell them out in intervals
> 0. 3 2 3 2 2
> 1. 3 3 2 2 2
> 2. 3 3 2 3 1
> 3. 4 2 2 3 1
> 4. 4 2 3 2 1
> 5. 3 2 3 3 1
> 6. 4 1 3 3 1
> 7. 4 1 4 2 1
> 8. 4 1 3 2 2
> 9. 4 1 4 2 1
> 10. 3 2 4 1 2
> 11. 4 2 3 1 2
> 12. 4 2 1 3 2
> 13. 3 3 3 1 2
> 14. 3 3 3 2 1
> 15. 4 1 1 4 2
> 16. 5 1 3 2 1
> 17. 5 1 1 4 1
> 18. 5 1 4 1 1
> 19. 5 1 2 3 1
> 20. 4 2 2 2 2
>
>
>
>
> /^_,',',',_ //^/Kraig Grady_^_,',',',_
> Mesotonal Music from:
> _'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
>
> _'''''''_^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
> Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria
> <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>
>
> ',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',
>
> a momentary antenna as i turn to water
> this evaporates - an island once again
>
> On 21/11/10 8:16 PM, genewardsmith wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:MakeMicroMusic%40yahoogroups.com<MakeMicroMusic%2540yahoogroups.com>>,
> Kraig Grady
> > <kraiggrady@...> wrote:
> >
> > > The first 19 i use are from those found within these 7 tone
> > scales
> > > http://anaphoria.com/modal12.pdf
> >
> > I can't figure out from this what scales you are referring to.
> > Can you define them without the use of any diagrams?
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

So far i have been exploring pentatonic that share a common heptatonic. One thus will always have ones that have three tones in common. Once i move i don't look back and look what is available from that point.
Certain pairs of pentatonic are found in a few different heptatonics spaced differently apart which enables one to create cycles.
I am not going to spell those out now as better one figures them out although in the future i might write out everything i have done in this regard.

While i have avoided the merely mechanical ones based on the numbers only as far as using common tones, One can look at these as also being "organic" in the sense of them just being "modal" changes.

There is no reason one could not apply this to any numbered scale.
the original set of heptatonics can also be found here
http://anaphoria.com/xen9mar.PDF
1-10 can be found in fig 1e with 0. in fig 1d.
so one could find an analogous cycle in any tuning and proceed from there.
Instead of a strict chain one allows certain deviations which are balanced latter.

/^_,',',',_ //^/Kraig Grady_^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

a momentary antenna as i turn to water
this evaporates - an island once again

On 22/11/10 9:41 AM, Chris Vaisvil wrote:
>
> This was quite helpful!!
>
> Now - modulation - in common harmonic practice modulation > usually enlists a
> pivot of some type - something that is the same but with > different meanings
> in the two contexts you are modulating between.
>
> What is the meaning melodically - and I'm assuming you are > talking about a
> melodic modulation between pentatonic scales.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chris
>
> On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 5:45 AM, Kraig Grady > <kraiggrady@... > <mailto:kraiggrady%40anaphoria.com>>wrote:
>
> > the ones that are written out on the first page
> > are the 7 tone scales that i take all the pentatonics from.
> >
> > I will spell them out in intervals
> > 0. 3 2 3 2 2
> > 1. 3 3 2 2 2
> > 2. 3 3 2 3 1
> > 3. 4 2 2 3 1
> > 4. 4 2 3 2 1
> > 5. 3 2 3 3 1
> > 6. 4 1 3 3 1
> > 7. 4 1 4 2 1
> > 8. 4 1 3 2 2
> > 9. 4 1 4 2 1
> > 10. 3 2 4 1 2
> > 11. 4 2 3 1 2
> > 12. 4 2 1 3 2
> > 13. 3 3 3 1 2
> > 14. 3 3 3 2 1
> > 15. 4 1 1 4 2
> > 16. 5 1 3 2 1
> > 17. 5 1 1 4 1
> > 18. 5 1 4 1 1
> > 19. 5 1 2 3 1
> > 20. 4 2 2 2 2
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > /^_,',',',_ //^/Kraig Grady_^_,',',',_
> > Mesotonal Music from:
> > _'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
> > North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island > <http://anaphoria.com/>
> >
> > _'''''''_^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
> > Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria
> > <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>
> >
> > ',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',
> >
> > a momentary antenna as i turn to water
> > this evaporates - an island once again
> >
> > On 21/11/10 8:16 PM, genewardsmith wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:MakeMicroMusic%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > <mailto:MakeMicroMusic%40yahoogroups.com<MakeMicroMusic%2540yahoogroups.com>>,
> > Kraig Grady
> > > <kraiggrady@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > > The first 19 i use are from those found within these 7 tone
> > > scales
> > > > http://anaphoria.com/modal12.pdf
> > >
> > > I can't figure out from this what scales you are referring to.
> > > Can you define them without the use of any diagrams?
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>