Excluded by Peers

I have been reading and composing a review of The Mathematics of Music by John O'Sullivan.

Due to time constraints this will be a multi-part review and installment one can read here: http://chrisvaisvil.com/?p=317

At that site you can play online a piece of music written in his Blue JI tuning. Included are composition notes and scala text.

If you'd rather skip all of that here is a direct download link.

http://micro.soonlabel.com/blue-tuning/blue-ji-excluded-by-peers.mp3

I can see that this is a self mirroring tuning except for the 7/5. as far as certain chords being iffy, one can use these as dissonant point s that pushes one back to where one came from for instance.
It is often good to have places that supply some energy when we need it.

/^_,',',',_ //^/Kraig Grady_^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

a momentary antenna as i turn to water
this evaporates - an island once again

On 11/11/10 8:21 AM, christopherv wrote:
>
> I have been reading and composing a review of The Mathematics > of Music by John O'Sullivan.
>
> Due to time constraints this will be a multi-part review and > installment one can read here: http://chrisvaisvil.com/?p=317
>
> At that site you can play online a piece of music written in > his Blue JI tuning. Included are composition notes and scala text.
>
> If you'd rather skip all of that here is a direct download link.
>
> http://micro.soonlabel.com/blue-tuning/blue-ji-excluded-by-peers.mp3
>
>

> I can see that this is a self mirroring tuning except for the
> 7/5. as far as certain chords being iffy, one can use these as
> dissonant point s that pushes one back to where one came from
> for instance.
> It is often good to have places that supply some energy when we
> need it.
>

Yes, it's also the Ellis duodone (or what it's called, i forgot)
But with a 7/5 instead of the 45/32. Very common modification.

Anyhow, I don't like it one little bit.
It's the standard old way of thinking about JI, doesn't make sense and it
sounds out of tune to me.

-Marcel

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ellis also uses 16/15 and I was wrong in that it is self mirroring, typing while waiting for coffee to brew.
I don't expect anyone to grab the full sense of a tuning right off, that takes a while. Even if one can hear the pushes and pulls , one has to figure out the best places for them to go.
an unusual set in places will create novel solutions to this.
It is not what i would do, but often a person who comes up with a tuning does certain things musically that fits that tuning, so unless i have a real sense of that, i am reluctant to to judge, when it might be a situation to learn someones perspective.
while i might not use the 15/14 in this instance, i need to know why he did over say the 16/15 first.
i want to know that.
-------------------
I will say to understand a (just) tuning i always have to look at it in quite a few ways.
Probably my biggest problem on these list is having often nothing but cents thrown at one.
It tells me some things but not others.
besides low to high, with just tunings i lattice it out to see all the harmonic connections and see if they are optimal
then i like to take a scale and modulate it in a cycle of fifths only because that involves only changing one note at a time
and i can see what it does.
from there i think i have a pretty good understanding of it to start.
what i do here
http://anaphoria.com/centaur.html
is what i do with any scale

/^_,',',',_ //^/Kraig Grady_^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

a momentary antenna as i turn to water
this evaporates - an island once again

On 11/11/10 9:09 AM, Marcel de Velde wrote:
>
> > I can see that this is a self mirroring tuning except for the
> > 7/5. as far as certain chords being iffy, one can use these as
> > dissonant point s that pushes one back to where one came from
> > for instance.
> > It is often good to have places that supply some energy when we
> > need it.
> >
>
> Yes, it's also the Ellis duodone (or what it's called, i forgot)
> But with a 7/5 instead of the 45/32. Very common modification.
>
> Anyhow, I don't like it one little bit.
> It's the standard old way of thinking about JI, doesn't make > sense and it
> sounds out of tune to me.
>
> -Marcel
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

I'm sure I'm guilty of following the low hanging fruit with this tuning.
I've yet to go through John's list of additional beyond 5-limit chords
on the keyboard.

Though.... I'm not advocating or defending John's work - I'm just
evaluating the musical consequences from a very subjective point of
view.

Chris

> I don't expect anyone to grab the full sense of a tuning right
> off, that takes a while. Even if one can hear the pushes and
> pulls , one has to figure out the best places for them to go.
> an unusual set in places will create novel solutions to this.
> It is not what i would do, but often a person who comes up with
> a tuning does certain things musically that fits that tuning, so
> unless i have a real sense of that, i am reluctant to to judge,

Not a problem Marcel. I'd be interested in how you *would* think of a
piece like this.

Chris

On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 5:09 PM, Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...> wrote:

>
> Anyhow, I don't like it one little bit.
> It's the standard old way of thinking about JI, doesn't make sense and it
> sounds out of tune to me.
>
> -Marcel
>

I didn't think you were going for the 'low flying' as you obviously went for the F# and were aware of some of the more strident points sat.

/^_,',',',_ //^/Kraig Grady_^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

a momentary antenna as i turn to water
this evaporates - an island once again

On 11/11/10 10:01 AM, Chris Vaisvil wrote:
>
> I'm sure I'm guilty of following the low hanging fruit with > this tuning.
> I've yet to go through John's list of additional beyond > 5-limit chords
> on the keyboard.
>
> Though.... I'm not advocating or defending John's work - I'm just
> evaluating the musical consequences from a very subjective > point of
> view.
>
> Chris
>
> > I don't expect anyone to grab the full sense of a tuning right
> > off, that takes a while. Even if one can hear the pushes and
> > pulls , one has to figure out the best places for them to go.
> > an unusual set in places will create novel solutions to this.
> > It is not what i would do, but often a person who comes up with
> > a tuning does certain things musically that fits that tuning, so
> > unless i have a real sense of that, i am reluctant to to judge,
>
>

> Ellis also uses 16/15 and I was wrong in that it is self
> mirroring, typing while waiting for coffee to brew.
>

Ah I didn't spot the 15/14.

> I don't expect anyone to grab the full sense of a tuning right
> off, that takes a while. Even if one can hear the pushes and
> pulls , one has to figure out the best places for them to go.
> an unusual set in places will create novel solutions to this.
> It is not what i would do, but often a person who comes up with
> a tuning does certain things musically that fits that tuning, so
> unless i have a real sense of that, i am reluctant to to judge,
> when it might be a situation to learn someones perspective.
> while i might not use the 15/14 in this instance, i need to know
> why he did over say the 16/15 first.
> i want to know that.
>

I think it's a good guess that the 15/14 was chosen because of the 15/8,
making a 7/4 instead of a 225/128.
Same with the 7/5.

But that's not the problem with this tuning.
The problem is that 6/5 doesn't belong to the same root as 5/4.
The combination is no good to my ears.

(btw all the respect for Chris his work, it's the tuning I don't like)

-Marcel

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Chris (from http://chrisvaisvil.com/?p=317) >"In using the tuning I noticed that
it was, in my experience, more flexible then many other JI tunings I had tried.
The only triads that sounded iffy to me were E major, F# major, and F# minor."

Highly agreed! John's scales under his tuning do indeed seem to excel in
strong triads.

The odd thing, as I understand it, is that John (at least from my
conversations with him) is
A) Based on optimizing dyads (he has a preset list of dyads he tries to attain
within about 7 cents) and not triads (unlike systems such a 1/4 comma meantone)
B) His system (ok maybe it isn't so odd) considers 9/8 to be the narrowest
chord-capable interval and thus any interval smaller than 9/8 is adjusted to fit
with the nearest interval > 9/8 away from it and not the "nearest note".

What this seems to translate to far a composition is a system very good at
re-tuning 12TET music while pushing a few of the not-so-consonant/"decent"
chords from 12TET into more musically usable territory. For those who have not
tried the tuning and especially those looking for "purer" tunings for common
practice theory music that are great for 12-tone modulation and yet are not the
"usual" 31TET, 1/4 comma meantone, 12-tone JI, or 53-TET, I would highly
recommend it.

Chris...my question to you, as a composer, is how did you find John's scale
far as non-major/minor triads (things like diminished and inverted triads)?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

here is a mapping of his scale in a harmonic lattice,
http://anaphoria.com/OsullivanBLUESjiscale.gif
for instance one can see the 1-3-5-7-9 pentad on the 8/5 quite easily

/^_,',',',_ //^/Kraig Grady_^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

a momentary antenna as i turn to water
this evaporates - an island once again

On 11/11/10 2:28 PM, Michael wrote:
>
> Chris (from http://chrisvaisvil.com/?p=317) >"In using the > tuning I noticed that
> it was, in my experience, more flexible then many other JI > tunings I had tried.
> The only triads that sounded iffy to me were E major, F# > major, and F# minor."
>
> Highly agreed! John's scales under his tuning do indeed seem > to excel in
> strong triads.
>
> The odd thing, as I understand it, is that John (at least from my
> conversations with him) is
> A) Based on optimizing dyads (he has a preset list of dyads he > tries to attain
> within about 7 cents) and not triads (unlike systems such a > 1/4 comma meantone)
> B) His system (ok maybe it isn't so odd) considers 9/8 to be > the narrowest
> chord-capable interval and thus any interval smaller than 9/8 > is adjusted to fit
> with the nearest interval > 9/8 away from it and not the > "nearest note".
>
> What this seems to translate to far a composition is a system > very good at
> re-tuning 12TET music while pushing a few of the > not-so-consonant/"decent"
> chords from 12TET into more musically usable territory. For > those who have not
> tried the tuning and especially those looking for "purer" > tunings for common
> practice theory music that are great for 12-tone modulation > and yet are not the
> "usual" 31TET, 1/4 comma meantone, 12-tone JI, or 53-TET, I > would highly
> recommend it.
>
> Chris...my question to you, as a composer, is how did you find > John's scale
> far as non-major/minor triads (things like diminished and > inverted triads)?
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

Kraig>"http://anaphoria.com/OsullivanBLUESjiscale.gif for instance one can see
the 1-3-5-7-9 pentad on the 8/5 quite easily"

Interesting, I also see a strong 1/1 5/3 5/4 15/8 15/14 = 15/15 15/14 15/12
15/8 u-tonal pentad (not quite sure what the proper "Partch-ian" notation for
that is and a 1/1 3/2 9/8 5/4 15/8 = 8-9-10-12-15 pentad.
Again, harmonically, it seems like a fairly strong scale if you want many tall
chords available among many different modes.

Side note, if I'm reading this correctly, the lattice (a type of structure
which I have not read in detail before) makes finding chords using o-tonal and
u-tonal relationships fairly obvious..."simply" an excellent diagram of some of
the scale's musical possibilities. The only thing is, far as I can read the
lattice, I can only find major/minor chords quickly...and I'm not sure how to
find, say, diminished and other types of chords using a lattice...

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Interesting, I also see a strong 1/1 5/3 5/4 15/8 15/14 = 15/15 15/14 15/12
>
> 15/8 u-tonal pentad (not quite sure what the proper "Partch-ian" notation
> for
> that is and a 1/1 3/2 9/8 5/4 15/8 = 8-9-10-12-15 pentad.
> Again, harmonically, it seems like a fairly strong scale if you want many
> tall
> chords available among many different modes.
>
>

Why a fixed 12 tone scale if one is doing JI?
Surely music in JI doesn't work in a fixed 12 tone scale, not even for a
piece in one key or "tonic".
One can hit many many chords in one key / tonic, most of them are not
covered in this scale.

And the other objection I have is that this scale gives chords that have
roots that differ by 5/4.
Play 8/5 2/1, then 2/1 5/2, then 5/2 8/5 again? or should that be 5/2 25/8?
Sounds like crap. Play 1/1 5/4 25/16 125/128 for fun aswell.
Since this scale has chords with root 5/4 apart why not go on like this.
Well I don't think chords ever have a root 5/4 apart. It should be 128/81
2/1, 2/1 5/4, 5/4 256/81 (or 405/256 - 405/128 instead of the 128/81 etc)
(alternatively in the right progressions one can have a 5/4 on 128/81, 1/1
and 81/64)
True chord roots move in perfect fifths, not 5/4 thirds.

-Marcel

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

corrected this diagram and one can see it is indeed self mirroring.
a subharmonic pentad on 15/8 mirroring a harmonic one on 8/5

/^_,',',',_ //^/Kraig Grady_^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

a momentary antenna as i turn to water
this evaporates - an island once again

On 11/11/10 3:56 PM, Kraig Grady wrote:
> here is a mapping of his scale in a harmonic lattice,
> http://anaphoria.com/OsullivanBLUESjiscale.gif
> for instance one can see the 1-3-5-7-9 pentad on the 8/5 quite
> easily
>
>
>
> /^_,',',',_ //^/Kraig Grady_^_,',',',_
> Mesotonal Music from:
> _'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island<http://anaphoria.com/>
>
> _'''''''_^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
> Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria
> <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>
>
> ',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',
>
> a momentary antenna as i turn to water
> this evaporates - an island once again
>
> On 11/11/10 2:28 PM, Michael wrote:
>> Chris (from http://chrisvaisvil.com/?p=317)>"In using the
>> tuning I noticed that
>> it was, in my experience, more flexible then many other JI
>> tunings I had tried.
>> The only triads that sounded iffy to me were E major, F#
>> major, and F# minor."
>>
>> Highly agreed! John's scales under his tuning do indeed seem
>> to excel in
>> strong triads.
>>
>> The odd thing, as I understand it, is that John (at least from my
>> conversations with him) is
>> A) Based on optimizing dyads (he has a preset list of dyads he
>> tries to attain
>> within about 7 cents) and not triads (unlike systems such a
>> 1/4 comma meantone)
>> B) His system (ok maybe it isn't so odd) considers 9/8 to be
>> the narrowest
>> chord-capable interval and thus any interval smaller than 9/8
>> is adjusted to fit
>> with the nearest interval> 9/8 away from it and not the
>> "nearest note".
>>
>> What this seems to translate to far a composition is a system
>> very good at
>> re-tuning 12TET music while pushing a few of the
>> not-so-consonant/"decent"
>> chords from 12TET into more musically usable territory. For
>> those who have not
>> tried the tuning and especially those looking for "purer"
>> tunings for common
>> practice theory music that are great for 12-tone modulation
>> and yet are not the
>> "usual" 31TET, 1/4 comma meantone, 12-tone JI, or 53-TET, I
>> would highly
>> recommend it.
>>
>> Chris...my question to you, as a composer, is how did you find
>> John's scale
>> far as non-major/minor triads (things like diminished and
>> inverted triads)?
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

So Marcel what's your solution for I-iii with a held third?

There's a very solution, but it requires you to reevaluate the concept of "roots". I'm just wondering what your solution is.

-Cameron Bobro

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...> wrote:
>
> > Interesting, I also see a strong 1/1 5/3 5/4 15/8 15/14 = 15/15 15/14 15/12
> >
> > 15/8 u-tonal pentad (not quite sure what the proper "Partch-ian" notation
> > for
> > that is and a 1/1 3/2 9/8 5/4 15/8 = 8-9-10-12-15 pentad.
> > Again, harmonically, it seems like a fairly strong scale if you want many
> > tall
> > chords available among many different modes.
> >
> >
>
> Why a fixed 12 tone scale if one is doing JI?
> Surely music in JI doesn't work in a fixed 12 tone scale, not even for a
> piece in one key or "tonic".
> One can hit many many chords in one key / tonic, most of them are not
> covered in this scale.
>
> And the other objection I have is that this scale gives chords that have
> roots that differ by 5/4.
> Play 8/5 2/1, then 2/1 5/2, then 5/2 8/5 again? or should that be 5/2 25/8?
> Sounds like crap. Play 1/1 5/4 25/16 125/128 for fun aswell.
> Since this scale has chords with root 5/4 apart why not go on like this.
> Well I don't think chords ever have a root 5/4 apart. It should be 128/81
> 2/1, 2/1 5/4, 5/4 256/81 (or 405/256 - 405/128 instead of the 128/81 etc)
> (alternatively in the right progressions one can have a 5/4 on 128/81, 1/1
> and 81/64)
> True chord roots move in perfect fifths, not 5/4 thirds.
>
> -Marcel
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

> So Marcel what's your solution for I-iii with a held third?
>
> There's a very solution, but it requires you to reevaluate the concept of
> "roots". I'm just wondering what your solution is.
>
> -Cameron Bobro
>

Well it depends on the situation / musical context, what other notes are
played, what's the full chord progression etc.
Most logical would be 1/1 5/4 3/2 -> 5/4 3/2 15/8
But it can also be 1/1 81/64 3/2 -> 81/64 3/2 243/128 for instance.

There is no problem with my concept of "roots" here at all.
I'm not saying every fifth has to be in the pythagorean plane or anything
like that.

-Marcel

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

What I ment with the root thing is the plane of JI.
I don't think 6/5 and 5/4 belong on the same plane for instance.

As an example, when you play 1/1 5/4 3/2 -> 1/1 6/5 3/2, that's wrong, out
of tune, not correct JI.
Or another example: 1/1 4/3 8/5 -> 1/1 5/4 3/2. Also wrong.

When I say out of tune, not correct JI, I mean our brain / ear won't
understand it.
It sounds out of tune.
The above examples I see as using the 25th harmonic, and in a very
nonsensical manner.
A correct tuning for the above examples could be this: (when the 1/1 5/4 3/2
is used as the resting point, other tunings are possible in certain musical
situations)
1/1 5/4 3/2 -> 1/1 32/27 3/2
1/1 4/3 128/81 -> 1/1 5/4 3/2 (405/256 may be possible instead of 128/81 as
well, not sure about this one yet)

I'm not saying 1/1 6/5 3/2 is a bad chord, but it doesn't have the same
Pythagorean plane as it's root as the 1/1 5/4 3/2 chord.
Take for instance Chopin's funeral march which uses the 1/1 6/5 3/2 chord:
5/4 3/2 15/8 -> 5/4 3/2 2/1 -> 5/4 3/2 15/8

What I've found with my research is that in JI the 3/2 fifth holds a role
somewhat similar to the octave, it created the plane.
Yet higher harmonics like the 5/4 do not have this role.
So the plane is endless 2/1 octaves chain, endless 3/2 fifths chain (though
harmony indicates and moves through only a subset of this at any one time).
And on every one of these points of this Pythagorean plane there is the
other harmonics, the 5/4, the 7/4 etc.
And I've found that in common practice period classical music, only the 5th
harmonic is used, not even the 7th harmonic.
So the 25th harmonic has absolutely no place whatsoever in JI in such simple
chords as described above..

-Marcel

So Marcel what's your solution for I-iii with a held third?
>>
>> There's a very solution, but it requires you to reevaluate the concept of
>> "roots". I'm just wondering what your solution is.
>>
>> -Cameron Bobro
>>
>
> Well it depends on the situation / musical context, what other notes are
> played, what's the full chord progression etc.
> Most logical would be 1/1 5/4 3/2 -> 5/4 3/2 15/8
> But it can also be 1/1 81/64 3/2 -> 81/64 3/2 243/128 for instance.
>
> There is no problem with my concept of "roots" here at all.
> I'm not saying every fifth has to be in the pythagorean plane or anything
> like that.
>
> -Marcel

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...> wrote:
>
> > So Marcel what's your solution for I-iii with a held third?
> >
> > There's a very solution, but it requires you to reevaluate the concept of
> > "roots". I'm just wondering what your solution is.
> >
> > -Cameron Bobro
> >
>
> Well it depends on the situation / musical context, what other notes are
> played, what's the full chord progression etc.
> Most logical would be 1/1 5/4 3/2 -> 5/4 3/2 15/8

But that most logical is, in traditional theory, a root movement by 5/4. And you said no root movements by 5/4, right? Do you consider that 5/4 not to be the root of the iii?

This one exhibits Maqamish leading-tones and diatonics featuring apotome intervals. Very good new-agey savour too!

Oz.

--

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

christopherv wrote:
> I have been reading and composing a review of The Mathematics of Music by John O'Sullivan.
>
> Due to time constraints this will be a multi-part review and installment one can read here: http://chrisvaisvil.com/?p=317
>
>
> At that site you can play online a piece of music written in his Blue JI tuning. Included are composition notes and scala text.
>
> If you'd rather skip all of that here is a direct download link.
>
> http://micro.soonlabel.com/blue-tuning/blue-ji-excluded-by-peers.mp3
>
>
>

This lattice is normally referred to as a generalized lattice.
the 1-3-5-7(-9) and the inversion and possibly the 15 and subset there of.
More complex chords would have the same shape where ever they are found
a diminish chord would be 3-5-7 without the 1 but you could have one which is the diagonal that one finds between the the 1/1 and the 6/5

/^_,',',',_ //^/Kraig Grady_^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

a momentary antenna as i turn to water
this evaporates - an island once again

On 12/11/10 1:19 AM, Michael wrote:
>
> Kraig>"http://anaphoria.com/OsullivanBLUESjiscale.gif for > instance one can see
> the 1-3-5-7-9 pentad on the 8/5 quite easily"
>
> Interesting, I also see a strong 1/1 5/3 5/4 15/8 15/14 = > 15/15 15/14 15/12
> 15/8 u-tonal pentad (not quite sure what the proper > "Partch-ian" notation for
> that is and a 1/1 3/2 9/8 5/4 15/8 = 8-9-10-12-15 pentad.
> Again, harmonically, it seems like a fairly strong scale if > you want many tall
> chords available among many different modes.
>
> Side note, if I'm reading this correctly, the lattice (a type > of structure
> which I have not read in detail before) makes finding chords > using o-tonal and
> u-tonal relationships fairly obvious..."simply" an excellent > diagram of some of
> the scale's musical possibilities. The only thing is, far as I > can read the
> lattice, I can only find major/minor chords quickly...and I'm > not sure how to
> find, say, diminished and other types of chords using a lattice...
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

In a temperment, one goes from one 'out of tune' chord to another.
i think if one is going to use JI one need not restrict oneself to such strict practices.
This is not to say that each movement will not have it own character, but even some of the more unorthodox has musical use and expression.
painting had it s period where only certain colors could be used in combination.
We are long past that and can't concern ourselves with imposing such stifling limitations.
If we can accept 7,11,13 ETs there is nothing here we can't and should not explore.

/^_,',',',_ //^/Kraig Grady_^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

a momentary antenna as i turn to water
this evaporates - an island once again

On 12/11/10 4:40 AM, Marcel de Velde wrote:
>
> What I ment with the root thing is the plane of JI.
> I don't think 6/5 and 5/4 belong on the same plane for instance.
>
> As an example, when you play 1/1 5/4 3/2 -> 1/1 6/5 3/2, > that's wrong, out
> of tune, not correct JI.
> Or another example: 1/1 4/3 8/5 -> 1/1 5/4 3/2. Also wrong.
>
> When I say out of tune, not correct JI, I mean our brain / ear > won't
> understand it.
> It sounds out of tune.
> The above examples I see as using the 25th harmonic, and in a very
> nonsensical manner.
> A correct tuning for the above examples could be this: (when > the 1/1 5/4 3/2
> is used as the resting point, other tunings are possible in > certain musical
> situations)
> 1/1 5/4 3/2 -> 1/1 32/27 3/2
> 1/1 4/3 128/81 -> 1/1 5/4 3/2 (405/256 may be possible instead > of 128/81 as
> well, not sure about this one yet)
>
> I'm not saying 1/1 6/5 3/2 is a bad chord, but it doesn't have > the same
> Pythagorean plane as it's root as the 1/1 5/4 3/2 chord.
> Take for instance Chopin's funeral march which uses the 1/1 > 6/5 3/2 chord:
> 5/4 3/2 15/8 -> 5/4 3/2 2/1 -> 5/4 3/2 15/8
>
> What I've found with my research is that in JI the 3/2 fifth > holds a role
> somewhat similar to the octave, it created the plane.
> Yet higher harmonics like the 5/4 do not have this role.
> So the plane is endless 2/1 octaves chain, endless 3/2 fifths > chain (though
> harmony indicates and moves through only a subset of this at > any one time).
> And on every one of these points of this Pythagorean plane > there is the
> other harmonics, the 5/4, the 7/4 etc.
> And I've found that in common practice period classical music, > only the 5th
> harmonic is used, not even the 7th harmonic.
> So the 25th harmonic has absolutely no place whatsoever in JI > in such simple
> chords as described above..
>
> -Marcel
>
> So Marcel what's your solution for I-iii with a held third?
> >>
> >> There's a very solution, but it requires you to reevaluate > the concept of
> >> "roots". I'm just wondering what your solution is.
> >>
> >> -Cameron Bobro
> >>
> >
> > Well it depends on the situation / musical context, what > other notes are
> > played, what's the full chord progression etc.
> > Most logical would be 1/1 5/4 3/2 -> 5/4 3/2 15/8
> > But it can also be 1/1 81/64 3/2 -> 81/64 3/2 243/128 for > instance.
> >
> > There is no problem with my concept of "roots" here at all.
> > I'm not saying every fifth has to be in the pythagorean > plane or anything
> > like that.
> >
> > -Marcel
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

ha! - I had to look up apotome :-)

I would have not thought this was maqamish - but that is based on a sense of
the entire melody.

On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 6:37 PM, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>wrote:

>
>
> This one exhibits Maqamish leading-tones and diatonics featuring apotome
> intervals. Very good new-agey savour too!
>
> Oz.
>
> --
>
> ✩ ✩ ✩
> www.ozanyarman.com
>
>
> christopherv wrote:
> > I have been reading and composing a review of The Mathematics of Music by
> John O'Sullivan.
> >
> > Due to time constraints this will be a multi-part review and installment
> one can read here: http://chrisvaisvil.com/?p=317
> >
> >
> > At that site you can play online a piece of music written in his Blue JI
> tuning. Included are composition notes and scala text.
> >
> > If you'd rather skip all of that here is a direct download link.
> >
> > http://micro.soonlabel.com/blue-tuning/blue-ji-excluded-by-peers.mp3
> >
> >
> >
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> > Well it depends on the situation / musical context, what other notes are
> > played, what's the full chord progression etc.
> > Most logical would be 1/1 5/4 3/2 -> 5/4 3/2 15/8
>
> But that most logical is, in traditional theory, a root movement by 5/4.
> And you said no root movements by 5/4, right? Do you consider that 5/4 not
> to be the root of the iii?

Yes you're right.
I'm using the word "root" in a wrong/confusing way.
I said it right in the other post. There is no 1/1 5/4 3/2 and 1/1 6/5 3/2
rooted on the same Pythagorean plane in correct JI.
There is also not 1/1 5/4 3/2 -> 5/4 25/16 15/8 or something like that
(which is the same story just different chords)

-Marcel

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> In a temperment, one goes from one 'out of tune' chord to another.
> i think if one is going to use JI one need not restrict oneself
> to such strict practices.
> This is not to say that each movement will not have it own
> character, but even some of the more unorthodox has musical use
> and expression.
> painting had it s period where only certain colors could be used
> in combination.
> We are long past that and can't concern ourselves with imposing
> such stifling limitations.
> If we can accept 7,11,13 ETs there is nothing here we can't and
> should not explore.
>

Well I think one can do whatever one like in rational intonation, or in a
temperament.
But this doesn't deserve the name Just intonation.
Not all rational chord progressions sound correct to the ear / brain, nor
make sense upon close inspection.
Furthermore, I belief that Just intonation will reveal a universal theory of
harmony. "Do whatever you like rational intonation" offers no such thing.

-Marcel

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I just want to chime in that, after having some large amount of correspondence with him over on Tuning-Research, I think I can explain the purpose of Marcel's project in a more impartial way than the man himself.

Basically, he is interpreting the concept of JI from the stand-point of functional harmony, where the most desirable selection of ratios for a chord is not necessarily always the lowest-limit or simplest. So the basic premise is not to have all the chords in a piece as relaxed as possible, but that tension and relaxation occur as they are functionally called for. I don't always grasp the particulars of what he's trying to do, and I don't always cotton to his critiques of other people's rational-intonation music, but I do think his "functional" approach to JI makes a lot of sense. I rarely see JI composers treating functionality with such a level of sensitivity, and I do agree with him that functional harmony completely falls apart if one insists on always tuning chords to the simplest ratios possible (as in adaptive JI).

That said, I'm quite fond of both of Chris's recent pieces. Sometimes, texturality is more important than functionality, though I think Chris is very good at balancing the two.

-Igs

--- In MakeMicroMusic@...m, Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...> wrote:
>
> > In a temperment, one goes from one 'out of tune' chord to another.
> > i think if one is going to use JI one need not restrict oneself
> > to such strict practices.
> > This is not to say that each movement will not have it own
> > character, but even some of the more unorthodox has musical use
> > and expression.
> > painting had it s period where only certain colors could be used
> > in combination.
> > We are long past that and can't concern ourselves with imposing
> > such stifling limitations.
> > If we can accept 7,11,13 ETs there is nothing here we can't and
> > should not explore.
> >
>
>
> Well I think one can do whatever one like in rational intonation, or in a
> temperament.
> But this doesn't deserve the name Just intonation.
> Not all rational chord progressions sound correct to the ear / brain, nor
> make sense upon close inspection.
> Furthermore, I belief that Just intonation will reveal a universal theory of
> harmony. "Do whatever you like rational intonation" offers no such thing.
>
> -Marcel
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

I too take Marcel seriously and agree he is sensitive to intonational practice.
He is concerned with "common practice" and look forward to those ideas as they develop and see in it as a desire to return this music to its archetypal roots that lie underneath.
one fruitful direction on this would be Boomliter and Creel idea of "extended reference" in tonality, showing how modulation is implied sometimes in the most simple melodies.
The same concept might possibly apply in much mideast music where modes and scales are exchanged or temporarily touched upon.
I assume there might be a practice known or done without recognition that certain scales and move to other scales.
Even in the performances of Ragas such things come about through comma shifts. Hence tension and resolution are not always limited to the use of dominant and more dissonant chord formations.

Possibly where a difference with him is that within a tuning, each chord is useable in someway and it is a 'functional' way, yet this might not be anything that has any counterpart in common practice. for instance a modulation to a key where one might have 9/7 as a major third can give quite a bit of energy to and propel the music to move more than if i am playing a bunch of acoustically calm chords. The sensitivity is in hearing what the chords and scales tell one and to follow or maybe allow it to be recognized as to what it is offering even if we put brakes on it.
This type of tension is also useful.

Certain ETs if high enough in number also allow these type of sensitive approaches.
In 31 ET one has a a great variety of thirds to choose from and one can add over say if one feels that roots be in a chain of fifths as Marcel suggest.

/^_,',',',_ //^/Kraig Grady_^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

a momentary antenna as i turn to water
this evaporates - an island once again

On 12/11/10 2:08 PM, cityoftheasleep wrote:
>
> I just want to chime in that, after having some large amount > of correspondence with him over on Tuning-Research, I think I > can explain the purpose of Marcel's project in a more > impartial way than the man himself.
>
> Basically, he is interpreting the concept of JI from the > stand-point of functional harmony, where the most desirable > selection of ratios for a chord is not necessarily always the > lowest-limit or simplest. So the basic premise is not to have > all the chords in a piece as relaxed as possible, but that > tension and relaxation occur as they are functionally called > for. I don't always grasp the particulars of what he's trying > to do, and I don't always cotton to his critiques of other > people's rational-intonation music, but I do think his > "functional" approach to JI makes a lot of sense. I rarely see > JI composers treating functionality with such a level of > sensitivity, and I do agree with him that functional harmony > completely falls apart if one insists on always tuning chords > to the simplest ratios possible (as in adaptive JI).
>
> That said, I'm quite fond of both of Chris's recent pieces. > Sometimes, texturality is more important than functionality, > though I think Chris is very good at balancing the two.
>
> -Igs
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:MakeMicroMusic%40yahoogroups.com>, Marcel de Velde > <m.develde@...> wrote:
> >
> > > In a temperment, one goes from one 'out of tune' chord to > another.
> > > i think if one is going to use JI one need not restrict > oneself
> > > to such strict practices.
> > > This is not to say that each movement will not have it own
> > > character, but even some of the more unorthodox has > musical use
> > > and expression.
> > > painting had it s period where only certain colors could > be used
> > > in combination.
> > > We are long past that and can't concern ourselves with > imposing
> > > such stifling limitations.
> > > If we can accept 7,11,13 ETs there is nothing here we > can't and
> > > should not explore.
> > >
> >
> >
> > Well I think one can do whatever one like in rational > intonation, or in a
> > temperament.
> > But this doesn't deserve the name Just intonation.
> > Not all rational chord progressions sound correct to the ear > / brain, nor
> > make sense upon close inspection.
> > Furthermore, I belief that Just intonation will reveal a > universal theory of
> > harmony. "Do whatever you like rational intonation" offers > no such thing.
> >
> > -Marcel
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>

Considering those users who are now apart of the western opus,use of Just intonation to define what they do, it is impossible to impose this.
Partch, Young, Harrison, Johnston not to mention of all ones on the various list.

There was such an argument on the tuning list that anything besides 5 limit should not be called JI even though in fact there is no historical music in 5 limit JI (in the west)

History are filled with things that others have labeled wrong only to continue and add and expand music.
Shall we demand that Debussy not call what he plays "chords" because he used them as parallel colors without any functional purpose??

/^_,',',',_ //^/Kraig Grady_^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

a momentary antenna as i turn to water
this evaporates - an island once again

On 12/11/10 1:34 PM, Marcel de Velde wrote:
>
> > In a temperment, one goes from one 'out of tune' chord to > another.
> > i think if one is going to use JI one need not restrict oneself
> > to such strict practices.
> > This is not to say that each movement will not have it own
> > character, but even some of the more unorthodox has musical use
> > and expression.
> > painting had it s period where only certain colors could be used
> > in combination.
> > We are long past that and can't concern ourselves with imposing
> > such stifling limitations.
> > If we can accept 7,11,13 ETs there is nothing here we can't and
> > should not explore.
> >
>
> Well I think one can do whatever one like in rational > intonation, or in a
> temperament.
> But this doesn't deserve the name Just intonation.
> Not all rational chord progressions sound correct to the ear / > brain, nor
> make sense upon close inspection.
> Furthermore, I belief that Just intonation will reveal a > universal theory of
> harmony. "Do whatever you like rational intonation" offers no > such thing.
>
> -Marcel
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

Thank you for the listen and comment! I am not sure I understand the
distinction you are making - could you elaborate?

Chris

On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 10:08 PM, cityoftheasleep
<igliashon@...> wrote:
>
>

>
> That said, I'm quite fond of both of Chris's recent pieces. Sometimes, texturality is more important than functionality, though I think Chris is very good at balancing the two.
>
> -Igs
>

Well, to be clear, it's a distinction but not necessarily a dichotomy. But as I see it, "functional" music is sort of strict and rule-bound, and plays with predictability and expectation, whereas "textural" music is more concerned with "pure sound" and mood. It's kind of like the distinction between "realism" and "impressionism" in the visual realm, if that makes any sense.

-Igs

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
>
> Thank you for the listen and comment! I am not sure I understand the
> distinction you are making - could you elaborate?
>
> Chris
>
> On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 10:08 PM, cityoftheasleep
> <igliashon@...> wrote:
> >
> >
>
> >
> > That said, I'm quite fond of both of Chris's recent pieces. Sometimes, texturality is more important than functionality, though I think Chris is very good at balancing the two.
> >
> > -Igs
> >
>