A Case of Hijacking.

It appears that the tuning list has been hijacked by undesirable elements from the tuning-math group who are bent on foisting their nonsense on the minds of genuine musicians. If you have anything to say then please put your comments (or other) here with this thread (ie. unless agents of the hijacking committee have penetrated MakeMicroMusic).

On Sat, Nov 6, 2010 at 7:05 AM, robert <robertthomasmartin@...> wrote:
>
> It appears that the tuning list has been hijacked by undesirable elements from the tuning-math group who are bent on foisting their nonsense on the minds of genuine musicians. If you have anything to say then please put your comments (or other) here with this thread (ie. unless agents of the hijacking committee have penetrated MakeMicroMusic).

Agent M here... Do not adjust your television.

-Mike

Robert, I understand where you are coming from, but I really want you to understand why your "tactics" on this forum are not helping you achieve your desired outcome of more music-related discussion. To achieve your goal, you have to initiate discussion yourself on the desired topic, not merely complain about the fact that no one else is initiating that discussion. If your attempts to initiate your desired discussion do not meet with the desired level of interest, all I can say is that complaining about the lack of interest in the subject will do nothing to generate interest in it. Rather, it will generate lots of annoyed and defensive responses that will continue to push the discussion FURTHER from your desired topic. If people on the lists just aren't interested in discussing what you want to discuss, your only reasonable recourse is to find another forum, since complaints will not change the population nor the disposition of the population.

-Igliashon

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "robert" <robertthomasmartin@...> wrote:
>
> It appears that the tuning list has been hijacked by undesirable elements from the tuning-math group who are bent on foisting their nonsense on the minds of genuine musicians. If you have anything to say then please put your comments (or other) here with this thread (ie. unless agents of the hijacking committee have penetrated MakeMicroMusic).
>

Robert>"It appears that the tuning list has been hijacked by undesirable
elements from the tuning-math group who are bent on foisting their nonsense on
the minds of genuine musicians. If you have anything to say then please put
your comments (or other) here with this thread (ie. unless agents of the
hijacking committee have penetrated MakeMicroMusic)."

Not to say the Tuning Math material is non-sense...but, at the very least, I
agree that the Tuning List has become more about Tuning Math than much else.
Basically if you don't explain your discussion in terms of Tuning Math there, be
prepared to NOT be taken seriously. :-(

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear cityoftheasleep,
The argumentative defence of any proposition is inversely proportional to the truth contained.
Sincerely
Robert.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "cityoftheasleep" <igliashon@...> wrote:
>
> Robert, I understand where you are coming from, but I really want you to understand why your "tactics" on this forum are not helping you achieve your desired outcome of more music-related discussion. To achieve your goal, you have to initiate discussion yourself on the desired topic, not merely complain about the fact that no one else is initiating that discussion. If your attempts to initiate your desired discussion do not meet with the desired level of interest, all I can say is that complaining about the lack of interest in the subject will do nothing to generate interest in it. Rather, it will generate lots of annoyed and defensive responses that will continue to push the discussion FURTHER from your desired topic. If people on the lists just aren't interested in discussing what you want to discuss, your only reasonable recourse is to find another forum, since complaints will not change the population nor the disposition of the population.
>
> -Igliashon
>
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "robert" <robertthomasmartin@> wrote:
> >
> > It appears that the tuning list has been hijacked by undesirable elements from the tuning-math group who are bent on foisting their nonsense on the minds of genuine musicians. If you have anything to say then please put your comments (or other) here with this thread (ie. unless agents of the hijacking committee have penetrated MakeMicroMusic).
> >
>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "robert" <robertthomasmartin@...> wrote:
>
> Dear cityoftheasleep,
> The argumentative defence of any proposition is inversely proportional to the truth contained.
> Sincerely
> Robert.

The inappropriateness of any post on the Making Microtonal Music forum is inversely proportional to the amount of content related to ACTUALLY MAKING MICROTONAL MUSIC.

I'm getting really pissed off at this crap.

Dear Michael,
I agree with you wholeheartedly except for calling it nonsense. It is not only nonsense but mathematical mumb-jumbo with a suspect jargon to boot (and concocted by a handful of amateur mathematicians with nothing better to do than construct byzantine pathways to their inner sanctum of tomfoolery.
"When the blind lead the blind they all fall into the pit".

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:
>
> Robert>"It appears that the tuning list has been hijacked by undesirable
> elements from the tuning-math group who are bent on foisting their nonsense on
> the minds of genuine musicians. If you have anything to say then please put
> your comments (or other) here with this thread (ie. unless agents of the
> hijacking committee have penetrated MakeMicroMusic)."
>
>
> Not to say the Tuning Math material is non-sense...but, at the very least, I
> agree that the Tuning List has become more about Tuning Math than much else.
> Basically if you don't explain your discussion in terms of Tuning Math there, be
> prepared to NOT be taken seriously. :-(
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

This seems to be a call for all sides to ignore whatever this issue was, and
I agree.

Chris

On Sat, Nov 6, 2010 at 4:35 PM, robert <robertthomasmartin@...> wrote:

>
>
> Dear cityoftheasleep,
> The argumentative defence of any proposition is inversely proportional to
> the truth contained.
> Sincerely
> Robert.
>
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com <MakeMicroMusic%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "cityoftheasleep" <igliashon@...> wrote:
> >
> > Robert, I understand where you are coming from, but I really want you to
> understand why your "tactics" on this forum are not helping you achieve your
> desired outcome of more music-related discussion. To achieve your goal, you
> have to initiate discussion yourself on the desired topic, not merely
> complain about the fact that no one else is initiating that discussion. If
> your attempts to initiate your desired discussion do not meet with the
> desired level of interest, all I can say is that complaining about the lack
> of interest in the subject will do nothing to generate interest in it.
> Rather, it will generate lots of annoyed and defensive responses that will
> continue to push the discussion FURTHER from your desired topic. If people
> on the lists just aren't interested in discussing what you want to discuss,
> your only reasonable recourse is to find another forum, since complaints
> will not change the population nor the disposition of the population.
> >
> > -Igliashon
> >
> >
> > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com <MakeMicroMusic%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "robert" <robertthomasmartin@> wrote:
> > >
> > > It appears that the tuning list has been hijacked by undesirable
> elements from the tuning-math group who are bent on foisting their nonsense
> on the minds of genuine musicians. If you have anything to say then please
> put your comments (or other) here with this thread (ie. unless agents of the
> hijacking committee have penetrated MakeMicroMusic).
> > >
> >
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Jon.
I wondered when you'd wake up and chime in with your two bits worth. Good for you. I can make microtonal music whenever I choose. The fact that I don't post it to the internet is an indication of the high standards I place on beautiful music in general. And my ego is presently satisfied with helping others improve their music-making skills.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "jonszanto" <jszanto@...> wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "robert" <robertthomasmartin@> wrote:
> >
> > Dear cityoftheasleep,
> > The argumentative defence of any proposition is inversely proportional to the truth contained.
> > Sincerely
> > Robert.
>
> The inappropriateness of any post on the Making Microtonal Music forum is inversely proportional to the amount of content related to ACTUALLY MAKING MICROTONAL MUSIC.
>
> I'm getting really pissed off at this crap.
>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "robert" <robertthomasmartin@...> wrote:
> I wondered when you'd wake up and chime in with your two bits worth.

Ok, fine, my last post on the subject(s), along with a plea to Prent (at the end). Anything else I have to say will go directly to the correspondent.

STFU, Robert. Complaining about noise on *another* list here just makes noise *here*. You didn't even address my point, which is that this list has been woefully diluted from it's original intent by just this sort of bullshit. And I'm not going to apologize for colorful language this time, because it has really become a thorn in my side.

Dear Prent: I want to publicly urge you to consider a bit more hands-on approach, and specifically ask that people engaged in non-MMM topics take them off-list. The list "metatuning" still exists, and it's sole purpose was to have a place to take any threads or discussion that had gotten seriously off-topic, from any of the related tuning lists. This list has a good history of supporting people and projects involved in making this music we're all passionate about, and it is slowly devolving into a cartoon sideshow of the main tuning list. I know this isn't something you'd want, either.

Where is the tuning map group? I'd like to join

Rich Duckworth

Lecturer in Music Technology

Department of Music

House 5

Trinity College

Dublin 2

Ireland

Tel 353 1 896 1500

It's the most devastating moment in a young mans life, when he quite reasonably says to himself, "I shall never play The Dane!"

--- On Sat, 6/11/10, jonszanto <jszanto@...> wrote:

From: jonszanto <jszanto@...>
Subject: [MMM] Re: A Case of Hijacking.
To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 6 November, 2010, 21:38

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "robert" <robertthomasmartin@...> wrote:

> I wondered when you'd wake up and chime in with your two bits worth.

Ok, fine, my last post on the subject(s), along with a plea to Prent (at the end). Anything else I have to say will go directly to the correspondent.

STFU, Robert. Complaining about noise on *another* list here just makes noise *here*. You didn't even address my point, which is that this list has been woefully diluted from it's original intent by just this sort of bullshit. And I'm not going to apologize for colorful language this time, because it has really become a thorn in my side.

Dear Prent: I want to publicly urge you to consider a bit more hands-on approach, and specifically ask that people engaged in non-MMM topics take them off-list. The list "metatuning" still exists, and it's sole purpose was to have a place to take any threads or discussion that had gotten seriously off-topic, from any of the related tuning lists. This list has a good history of supporting people and projects involved in making this music we're all passionate about, and it is slowly devolving into a cartoon sideshow of the main tuning list. I know this isn't something you'd want, either.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

i wonder if people complained to Pythagoras, Archytas, Aristoxenus, Euclid,
Ptolomy, Chu Tsai-Yu, Mersenne, Zarlino, Bharata etc etc etc that they just
had their heads up their asses doing tuning theory? WTF is it with tuning
theory haters, especially since noone fucking invited them to any of the
tuning lists, as far as I know.

it reminds me of people who scream and complain about gay people wanting to
get married: makes you wonder what their issues are that makes them so
concerned about what other people do?

speaking of tuning theory. i just put up a new page at the Xenharmonic wiki
and i'd love to get some feedback, ideas, etc:

http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/The+Prime+Harmonic+Series

i realize its probably off topic for this list, but most of the people i
want to correspond with frequent this list, as opposed to the hell-realm
also known as the "main tuning list". and, the theory on that page does end
up making music.

repressed closet theorist-haters need not apply

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rich,

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, richard duckworth <richduckworth@...> wrote:
>
> Where is the tuning map group?

Hmmm... At the risk of being the butt of the joke, did you actually mean the "tuning math" group?

/tuning-math/

If you meant an actual "map" group, there isn't one. If it was a joke, you got me!

(And I'm so sorry this didn't come about a year ago, before I spent about a week in Dublin - would have been fun!)

Cheers,
Jon

You've got it backwards, Robert. People from the tuning list
started tuning-math, and this list. And you just recently posted
math papers having far less to do with music than the stuff you are
flagellating yourself over (neither of which you understand, by
your own admission). And you snapped and your personality changed
180 degrees over the course of 24 hours without any provocation.
Now we're back to the old Robert we started with. I must say
I liked the middle Robert much better.

-Carl

Dear Jon.
Telling the teacher on me has moved me to contrition. So I concede your point of making more music and less talking. The last time that I got into trouble with the teacher he gave me a severe thrashing along with a general paddy-whacking on the drumsticks.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "jonszanto" <jszanto@...> wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "robert" <robertthomasmartin@> wrote:
> > I wondered when you'd wake up and chime in with your two bits worth.
>
> Ok, fine, my last post on the subject(s), along with a plea to Prent (at the end). Anything else I have to say will go directly to the correspondent.
>
> STFU, Robert. Complaining about noise on *another* list here just makes noise *here*. You didn't even address my point, which is that this list has been woefully diluted from it's original intent by just this sort of bullshit. And I'm not going to apologize for colorful language this time, because it has really become a thorn in my side.
>
> Dear Prent: I want to publicly urge you to consider a bit more hands-on approach, and specifically ask that people engaged in non-MMM topics take them off-list. The list "metatuning" still exists, and it's sole purpose was to have a place to take any threads or discussion that had gotten seriously off-topic, from any of the related tuning lists. This list has a good history of supporting people and projects involved in making this music we're all passionate about, and it is slowly devolving into a cartoon sideshow of the main tuning list. I know this isn't something you'd want, either.
>

While there are many that share a similar view on the "tone" of any of the list.
the situation might be when the visual arts first discovered perspective. I would not be surprised if there were not those thought that painting might be moving in the wrong direction.
Both Cris and Ozan comments on the existence and/role of the soul I found a breath of air in the midst of it all. And Music does this also and I thank all for sharing it.

/^_,',',',_ //^/Kraig Grady_^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

a momentary antenna as i turn to water
this evaporates - an island once again

I offered to delete the papers if they were considered inappropriate.
These papers and many more can be found at the free gfax library at:
http://gfax.ch/files/Literature/music/
More papers will be forthcoming as I slowly wade through the contents of my hard drive. Anyone can access this library. No membership is required.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
>
> You've got it backwards, Robert. People from the tuning list
> started tuning-math, and this list. And you just recently posted
> math papers having far less to do with music than the stuff you are
> flagellating yourself over (neither of which you understand, by
> your own admission). And you snapped and your personality changed
> 180 degrees over the course of 24 hours without any provocation.
> Now we're back to the old Robert we started with. I must say
> I liked the middle Robert much better.
>
> -Carl
>

Robert wrote:

>I offered to delete the papers if they were considered inappropriate.
>These papers and many more can be found at the free gfax library at:
> http://gfax.ch/files/Literature/music/
>More papers will be forthcoming as I slowly wade through the contents
>of my hard drive. Anyone can access this library. No membership is required.

I thought it was a great, and I spent a couple hours purusing it.
But surely you realize the contents of many of those papers are
highly mathematical. The library even contains a few papers on the
same stuff we discuss on tuning-math, written by founding members
of tuning-math! So I don't understand why you are providing them
and complaining about tuning-math at the same time.

-Carl

I just like providing and complaining. That's my job as a rambling librarian, minstrel and clever arithmetician.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
>
> Robert wrote:
>
> >I offered to delete the papers if they were considered inappropriate.
> >These papers and many more can be found at the free gfax library at:
> > http://gfax.ch/files/Literature/music/
> >More papers will be forthcoming as I slowly wade through the contents
> >of my hard drive. Anyone can access this library. No membership is required.
>
> I thought it was a great, and I spent a couple hours purusing it.
> But surely you realize the contents of many of those papers are
> highly mathematical. The library even contains a few papers on the
> same stuff we discuss on tuning-math, written by founding members
> of tuning-math! So I don't understand why you are providing them
> and complaining about tuning-math at the same time.
>
> -Carl
>

Here's the rub as I see it.
First of all, as I see it, math can be heavily related making music, but is
certain not always related to making music. So people who say math is always
related or virtually never related, IMVHO, are equally close minded.

Back to "how this affects actually making music". Most of the discussion on
the tuning list recently has been about Harmonic Entropy. Harmonic Entropy
typically assumes most everything consonant/"clear" is heard on the basis of
5-limit dyads (at least within the octave).

What I'm pushing for is a system that encompasses 11-limit and even 15-limit
dyads as having their own "albeit with less slack for frequency range and a bit
less consonance" musical identities. You may ask, how did I come up with the
idea that things like 11/9 and 22/15 could be used in music (despite that most
mathematical consonance theories say otherwise)? Well, my ears and experience
in composing in large TET's and simply choosing what ratios sounded best to me
without thinking about the math.

What's seems to be at stake far as the point of this list IE producing
micro-tonal music?

The whole idea is higher-limit ratios (and ultimately microtonality) should
be given justice as having a larger purpose in music. Not only does the include
types of ratios include the rich Middle Eastern (and some Medieval) heritage,
but IMVHO by and large the difference between 12TET and micro-tonality (12TET is
a not-at-all-far-from-ideal (to the average musician's ear) 5-limit system). So
getting a theory to work on things like 11-limit dyad would likely convince a
lot of professors to start using them and going the next step and making
theories about 3 and 4 note chords and what can be used as "relaxed" and "tense"
chords, neighboring vs. chord tones...in actual composition theories. Then I
figure they can (finally!) push for the development of instruments, deeper
composition theories, and more that make much more (and much easier) options for
musicians concerning microtonality.

That seems to be a goal: to prove microtonality is not a random,
pie-in-the-sky idea...and that its theory has every bit as much foundation as
traditional music theory and deserves a similar level of support for composers.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks Jon :) I meant math! Don't know how I typed 'map'. 

Rich Duckworth

Lecturer in Music Technology

Department of Music

House 5

Trinity College

Dublin 2

Ireland

Tel 353 1 896 1500

It's the most devastating moment in a young mans life, when he quite reasonably says to himself, "I shall never play The Dane!"

--- On Sat, 6/11/10, jonszanto <jszanto@cox.net> wrote:

From: jonszanto <jszanto@...>
Subject: [MMM] Re: A Case of Hijacking.
To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 6 November, 2010, 21:52

Rich,

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, richard duckworth <richduckworth@...> wrote:

>

> Where is the tuning map group?

Hmmm... At the risk of being the butt of the joke, did you actually mean the "tuning math" group?

/tuning-math/

If you meant an actual "map" group, there isn't one. If it was a joke, you got me!

(And I'm so sorry this didn't come about a year ago, before I spent about a week in Dublin - would have been fun!)

Cheers,

Jon

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm jumping in because it looks like fun, but it's already taken longer than I hoped, so I won't be here all day.

Anytime you are dissatisfied with the talk happening around microtonality, take great care! Remember, talking *is* an action, and to exclude it from the domain of actions you care deeply about would be...would be almost violent.

Metaphoric leap: What you're actually frustrated with is the use of *12-equal language*, the language we're all still unfortunately stuck with as long as we put up with it. It's a language of universal truths, indiscriminate categorization of people, false dichotomies, competition, and boredom at so few alternatives.

To make our languaging as microtonal as our music-ing would turn language into a microtonal composition project. Which, if you were wondering, it already is. Treating it as a mere project of 12-equal communication...well, that's like doing the same with music.

One danger in writing anything down is the way in which a message, once made, get frozen in place, separated from the thinking that generated and needed it. The hope, of course, is that it will lead to a spread of that thinking, but that takes thinkers.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:
>
> Here's the rub as I see it.
> First of all, as I see it, math can be heavily related making music, but is
> certain not always related to making music. So people who say math is always
> related or virtually never related, IMVHO, are equally close minded.

In My Very Humble Opinion:

Saying that -> Math is-or-isn't related to making music <- hides the agent, the actor, the one *doing* the relating.

Applying that look to your second sentence:

(People who always relate math to music) and (people who never relate math to music) are equally small-minded...

...which, to me, is an argument for keeping both ways of thinking around, so that someone else can distinguish themself by making dichotomy-bridging statements like that one.

And I can relate to that.

> Back to "how this affects actually making music"....etc. etc. edited for brevity's sake You may ask, how did I come up with the
> idea that things like 11/9 and 22/15 could be used in music (despite that most
> mathematical consonance theories say otherwise)? Well, my ears and experience
> in composing in large TET's and simply choosing what ratios sounded best to me
> without thinking about the math.

So you pride yourself on being able to turn the math on or off, as it were. And you would recommend that to everyone.

That approach excludes (1) the project of making a case for a microtonality to people currently allergic to math-as-a-basis-for-a-claim-about-music, and (2) the project of making a case for a microtonality to people currently allergic to anything-but-math-as-a-basis-for-a-claim-about-music.

And those people probably aren't the professors you're targeting, so, good.

> So getting a theory to work on things like 11-limit dyad

What does it mean "getting a theory to work"? Could you say more about what work the theory will be doing?

> would likely convince a lot of professors to start using them and going the next step and making
> theories about 3 and 4 note chords and what can be used as "relaxed" and "tense"
> chords, neighboring vs. chord tones...in actual composition theories.

I see such a high variety of composition theories and approaches...are you saying that a new, solid, microtonal one will transform the others by its very presence?

> Then I figure they can (finally!) push for the development of instruments, deeper
> composition theories, and more that make much more (and much easier) options for
> musicians concerning microtonality.

So it is *composition professors* who are holding up the widespread research & development of a microtonal praxis?

Hmm. I guess that makes things simpler.

> That seems to be a goal: to prove microtonality is not a random,
> pie-in-the-sky idea...and that its theory has every bit as much foundation as
> traditional music theory and deserves a similar level of support for composers.

"for" or "from"?

Jacob

PS I realize I'm dipping a little irresponsibly into what could be called a community of people caring about each other on a recurrent basis. I hope my message was microtonal enough to trigger other microtonal messages.

a few things to play with here

/^_,',',',_ //^/Kraig Grady_^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

a momentary antenna as i turn to water
this evaporates - an island once again

On 10/11/10 2:34 AM, piccolosandcheese wrote:
>
>
> I see such a high variety of composition theories and > approaches...are you saying that a new, solid, microtonal one > will transform the others by its very presence?
>
The field is filled with true believers who somehow feel that if every (including non talented) person in the world did microtones the world would be better.
I think it is more is gained by people solving their own musical problems and directions than to concern themselves what others are doing.
we need examples of music that will either appeal to others desire as to what they want to do or not.

It is ripe to the type of fascism we saw will serialism where it was forced on everyone despite mass protest.
If it is to be anything, it should not be a "political movement".

Because of language, it mistakenly puts people and ideas together that interrelationship are true only trivially

> So it is *composition professors* who are holding up the > widespread research & development of a microtonal praxis?
>
> Hmm. I guess that makes things simpler.
>
They will not support the building of new instruments over the use of existing ones regardless of how greatly limiting that situation is.
Bowed string and brass music will be stuck on the harmonic series, the simplest versions there of.
>
>
> > That seems to be a goal: to prove microtonality is not a > random,
> > pie-in-the-sky idea...and that its theory has every bit as > much foundation as
> > traditional music theory and deserves a similar level of > support for composers.
>
> "for" or "from"?
>
> Jacob
>
> PS I realize I'm dipping a little irresponsibly into what > could be called a community of people caring about each other > on a recurrent basis. I hope my message was microtonal enough > to trigger other microtonal messages.
>
I think we need to be more self critical so go for it.
>
>
>