?Mechanical instruments for live gigging with irregular temperaments and intonations?

I play fretted electric guitar and sing at live gigs. The nature of the instrument makes (low numbered) equal temperaments and 12 note pythagorean intonation easy for me to play, quarter comma difficult but doable and irregular temperaments and intonations impractical.
I would like to be able to choose my tunings freely without worrying about where to put frets.
However, I want to play mechanically real instruments, not synthesisers. I will make them myself (that is not a problem). What instruments do people suggest that can be easily carried to and from a gig, can be tuned to irregular temperaments or intonations and permit the player to sing at the same time as playing chords? Ideally I want to be able to play without looking at what I'm doing so that I can look the audience in the eye while I sing to them.
I do not want to play fretless guitar or slide guitar. I want instruments that are specifically tuned to scales to make it easier for me.
Ideas I have had myself include harp, autoharp, hammered dulcimer, koto, xither and xylophone.
A Thai mouthorgan opperated by bellows might work. (this would be like an accordion but easier to tune, I think).
I have also been trying to work out a way to quickly swap between different tunings on harp like instruments

Jacob Barton retuned a harmonium to overtones 12-24, so it can't be too difficult to do that. A concertina or accordion could be retuned using the same method, I'd imagine.

-Igs

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <mark.barnes3@...> wrote:
>
> I play fretted electric guitar and sing at live gigs. The nature of the instrument makes (low numbered) equal temperaments and 12 note pythagorean intonation easy for me to play, quarter comma difficult but doable and irregular temperaments and intonations impractical.
> I would like to be able to choose my tunings freely without worrying about where to put frets.
> However, I want to play mechanically real instruments, not synthesisers. I will make them myself (that is not a problem). What instruments do people suggest that can be easily carried to and from a gig, can be tuned to irregular temperaments or intonations and permit the player to sing at the same time as playing chords? Ideally I want to be able to play without looking at what I'm doing so that I can look the audience in the eye while I sing to them.
> I do not want to play fretless guitar or slide guitar. I want instruments that are specifically tuned to scales to make it easier for me.
> Ideas I have had myself include harp, autoharp, hammered dulcimer, koto, xither and xylophone.
> A Thai mouthorgan opperated by bellows might work. (this would be like an accordion but easier to tune, I think).
> I have also been trying to work out a way to quickly swap between different tunings on harp like instruments
>

Koto is great for this purpose, you can change tuning easily even during play (bending strings or shifting tuning bridges). And there are instruments with more strings than standard 13. Probably difficult to get outside Japan...

Daniel Forro

On 22 Sep 2010, at 8:33 AM, Mark wrote:

> I play fretted electric guitar and sing at live gigs. The nature of > the instrument makes (low numbered) equal temperaments and 12 note > pythagorean intonation easy for me to play, quarter comma difficult > but doable and irregular temperaments and intonations impractical.
> I would like to be able to choose my tunings freely without > worrying about where to put frets.
> However, I want to play mechanically real instruments, not > synthesisers. I will make them myself (that is not a problem). What > instruments do people suggest that can be easily carried to and > from a gig, can be tuned to irregular temperaments or intonations > and permit the player to sing at the same time as playing chords? > Ideally I want to be able to play without looking at what I'm doing > so that I can look the audience in the eye while I sing to them.
> I do not want to play fretless guitar or slide guitar. I want > instruments that are specifically tuned to scales to make it easier > for me.
> Ideas I have had myself include harp, autoharp, hammered dulcimer, > koto, xither and xylophone.
> A Thai mouthorgan opperated by bellows might work. (this would be > like an accordion but easier to tune, I think).
> I have also been trying to work out a way to quickly swap between > different tunings on harp like instruments

Harmonium reeds are retunable up to about 50 cents either way. Past that the timbre changes or they won't speak. I retuned 6.

/^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

a momentary antenna as i turn to water
this evaporates - an island once again

On 22/09/10 1:12 PM, cityoftheasleep wrote:
> Jacob Barton retuned a harmonium to overtones 12-24, so it can't be too difficult to do that. A concertina or accordion could be retuned using the same method, I'd imagine.
>
> -Igs
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Mark"<mark.barnes3@...> wrote:
>> I play fretted electric guitar and sing at live gigs. The nature of the instrument makes (low numbered) equal temperaments and 12 note pythagorean intonation easy for me to play, quarter comma difficult but doable and irregular temperaments and intonations impractical.
>> I would like to be able to choose my tunings freely without worrying about where to put frets.
>> However, I want to play mechanically real instruments, not synthesisers. I will make them myself (that is not a problem). What instruments do people suggest that can be easily carried to and from a gig, can be tuned to irregular temperaments or intonations and permit the player to sing at the same time as playing chords? Ideally I want to be able to play without looking at what I'm doing so that I can look the audience in the eye while I sing to them.
>> I do not want to play fretless guitar or slide guitar. I want instruments that are specifically tuned to scales to make it easier for me.
>> Ideas I have had myself include harp, autoharp, hammered dulcimer, koto, xither and xylophone.
>> A Thai mouthorgan opperated by bellows might work. (this would be like an accordion but easier to tune, I think).
>> I have also been trying to work out a way to quickly swap between different tunings on harp like instruments
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

There is a 20 string one i think and also a bass one

/^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

a momentary antenna as i turn to water
this evaporates - an island once again

On 22/09/10 1:42 PM, Daniel Forró wrote:
> Koto is great for this purpose, you can change tuning easily even
> during play (bending strings or shifting tuning bridges). And there
> are instruments with more strings than standard 13. Probably
> difficult to get outside Japan...
>
> Daniel Forro
>
>
> On 22 Sep 2010, at 8:33 AM, Mark wrote:
>
>> I play fretted electric guitar and sing at live gigs. The nature of
>> the instrument makes (low numbered) equal temperaments and 12 note
>> pythagorean intonation easy for me to play, quarter comma difficult
>> but doable and irregular temperaments and intonations impractical.
>> I would like to be able to choose my tunings freely without
>> worrying about where to put frets.
>> However, I want to play mechanically real instruments, not
>> synthesisers. I will make them myself (that is not a problem). What
>> instruments do people suggest that can be easily carried to and
>> from a gig, can be tuned to irregular temperaments or intonations
>> and permit the player to sing at the same time as playing chords?
>> Ideally I want to be able to play without looking at what I'm doing
>> so that I can look the audience in the eye while I sing to them.
>> I do not want to play fretless guitar or slide guitar. I want
>> instruments that are specifically tuned to scales to make it easier
>> for me.
>> Ideas I have had myself include harp, autoharp, hammered dulcimer,
>> koto, xither and xylophone.
>> A Thai mouthorgan opperated by bellows might work. (this would be
>> like an accordion but easier to tune, I think).
>> I have also been trying to work out a way to quickly swap between
>> different tunings on harp like instruments
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

Yes. Bass koto has 17 strings, and uses shifting bridges as well as tuning pins.

Also zymbalom has tuning pins, and hapsichord - and tuning process is more easy than piano tuning.

Daniel Forro

On 22 Sep 2010, at 3:22 PM, Kraig Grady wrote:

> There is a 20 string one i think and also a bass one

I have a design idea for a xenharmonic electric harp guitar. I have 2 designs in mind, 7 and 14 string.

The 7 string is an electric guitar strung with strings whose open notes roughly cover 1 octave. The open notes are tuned to the 7 tones of the xenharmonic scale. This guitar only needs perhaps 2 or 3 frets, at the octave, 2 octave and possibly 3 octave positions.

The open notes create the lowest octave of the instrument's range. Fretting at the octave fret creates another octave of range, another octave by fretting at the 2 octave fret. Alternatively the higher repititions of the scale can be played by playing the 2nd and 4th and possibly 8th harmonics of the strings. In this case the frets act as guidelines for finding the harmonic nodes.

Complex chords can be played by mixing open and fretted notes. Also there is no need to mute the unplayed strings since they are all tuned to the scale and can act as sympathetic or drone strings.

The 14 string version has strings whose open notes cover 2 octaves and are tuned to the 14 scale tones. The open notes create the lowest 2 octaves of the instruments range. The third octave of range is played by fretting the highest 7 strings at the octave fret, the fourth octave of range by fretting the highest 7 strings at the 2 octave fret.

The advantage of the 14 string is not having to fret the thicker bass strings on the 2 octave fret, which may not have good tone. The range is larger, and the low notes can be lower. There are more possibilities for playing chords.

Just some friendly advice..
Perhaps it would be a good idea to first know with some certainty and
experience which tuning system you wish to use.
A tuning system you have made music with and have lived with for a while and
expect to keep using for some time to come, before designing / building /
buying an instrument for it. (12 notes per octave freely tunable may not
make you happy anymore in the future for instance)
As most people on the list have frequent tuning choice changes, and most
microtonal instruments are not suited for all possible microtunings (with
the exception of synthesizers/computer, fretless string instruments and
trombones).
Perhaps this is allready the case and you know exactly what you want to do
in the future tuning wise, but this wasn't yet evident to me from your post.

Marcel

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thank you very much for that. I am fascinated. I will reply in more detail later, but first I have one piece of advice: If you have an instrument with only 2 frets, you can have seperate bridge position adjustment for each string (as is standard for electric guitars) and seperate nut position adjustment for each sting (or a fixed compensating nut and fixed compensating bridge which some might prefer on an acoustic instrument). Together, these 2 adjustments allow you to fine tune every single fretted note perfectly. (aswell as your design this also applies to the Dune Encyclopedia version of the Baliset, which has 7 strings tuned C F B E A D G in 7 edo that can be fretted to provide the 7 edo notes in between, together with 2 bass drones of adjustable tuning.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "ixlramp" <ixlramp@...> wrote:
>
> I have a design idea for a xenharmonic electric harp guitar. I have 2 designs in mind, 7 and 14 string.
>
> The 7 string is an electric guitar strung with strings whose open notes roughly cover 1 octave. The open notes are tuned to the 7 tones of the xenharmonic scale. This guitar only needs perhaps 2 or 3 frets, at the octave, 2 octave and possibly 3 octave positions.
>
> The open notes create the lowest octave of the instrument's range. Fretting at the octave fret creates another octave of range, another octave by fretting at the 2 octave fret. Alternatively the higher repititions of the scale can be played by playing the 2nd and 4th and possibly 8th harmonics of the strings. In this case the frets act as guidelines for finding the harmonic nodes.
>
> Complex chords can be played by mixing open and fretted notes. Also there is no need to mute the unplayed strings since they are all tuned to the scale and can act as sympathetic or drone strings.
>
> The 14 string version has strings whose open notes cover 2 octaves and are tuned to the 14 scale tones. The open notes create the lowest 2 octaves of the instruments range. The third octave of range is played by fretting the highest 7 strings at the octave fret, the fourth octave of range by fretting the highest 7 strings at the 2 octave fret.
>
> The advantage of the 14 string is not having to fret the thicker bass strings on the 2 octave fret, which may not have good tone. The range is larger, and the low notes can be lower. There are more possibilities for playing chords.
>

Xenharmonic electric harp guitar continued...

The instrument would first be set-up in a standby open tuning of 7TET. String gauges are chosen so that each string can be retuned at least 2 semitones up or down. This allows quick retuning to almost any xenharmonic scale just by using the guitar tuners.

This design also allows very intuitive creation of new xenharmonic scales purely by ear, by adjusting the tuners while playing across the strings and playing a drone on the string chosen as the tonic.

Standard electric guitars can be easily restrung to create this instrument. 6 string guitars are limited to hexatonic or pentatonic scales. When using a pentatonic scale the spare top string is tuned to the octave above the lowest string.

I have considered this issue myself, both from the point of view of making an instrument in it's own right and from the point of view of making a resonant string system to be part of a sitar, vena, serengi or sarod like instrument. Not wanting to be limited to 12 an octave is one of the things (but nowhere near the only thing) that puts me off synthesisers, since I think I would find it much harder to make or buy and non 12 midi controller than to make a mechanical instrument. My theoretical solution has been to have one string for each note in the scale and have the strings tuned by length, not tension or mass per unit length. This allows for tunings with different numbers of notes in an octave. To change from one tuning to another quickly on the same instrument, I think I could use boards that impose set strings lengths without altering tension. Each note on each board could be adjusted, but you swap one board for another to change many notes simultaneously (similarly you can have movable frets on interchangable fingerboards for melody strings on sitar like instruments). Also, if each string also had a part that was free to vibrate but the same length for all strings, this would make for quick tuning. (though this section may need to be damped during playing)

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...> wrote:
>
> Just some friendly advice..
> Perhaps it would be a good idea to first know with some certainty and
> experience which tuning system you wish to use.
> A tuning system you have made music with and have lived with for a while and
> expect to keep using for some time to come, before designing / building /
> buying an instrument for it. (12 notes per octave freely tunable may not
> make you happy anymore in the future for instance)
> As most people on the list have frequent tuning choice changes, and most
> microtonal instruments are not suited for all possible microtunings (with
> the exception of synthesizers/computer, fretless string instruments and
> trombones).
> Perhaps this is allready the case and you know exactly what you want to do
> in the future tuning wise, but this wasn't yet evident to me from your post.
>
> Marcel
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

I really like this idea. You could also modify the design slightly, to give scales with non standard octaves. Movable frets might allow for slightly stretched or compressed octaves, while a different version, possibly with more strings, could have frets placed at tritave and double tritave positions for Bohlen Pierce type scales.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "ixlramp" <ixlramp@...> wrote:
>
> Xenharmonic electric harp guitar continued...
>
> The instrument would first be set-up in a standby open tuning of 7TET. String gauges are chosen so that each string can be retuned at least 2 semitones up or down. This allows quick retuning to almost any xenharmonic scale just by using the guitar tuners.
>
> This design also allows very intuitive creation of new xenharmonic scales purely by ear, by adjusting the tuners while playing across the strings and playing a drone on the string chosen as the tonic.
>
> Standard electric guitars can be easily restrung to create this instrument. 6 string guitars are limited to hexatonic or pentatonic scales. When using a pentatonic scale the spare top string is tuned to the octave above the lowest string.
>

A hammer dulcimer is one of my instruments of choice.
Stings in general are notorious for going out of tune and in
the real world would not rely on what some math tells one what
will happen.
Going from tuning to tuning seems a bit of allot to tackle
unless one is just dropping in the same approach to each.

/^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria
<http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

a momentary antenna as i turn to water
this evaporates - an island once again

On 23/09/10 11:26 AM, Mark wrote:
> I have considered this issue myself, both from the point of view of making an instrument in it's own right and from the point of view of making a resonant string system to be part of a sitar, vena, serengi or sarod like instrument. Not wanting to be limited to 12 an octave is one of the things (but nowhere near the only thing) that puts me off synthesisers, since I think I would find it much harder to make or buy and non 12 midi controller than to make a mechanical instrument. My theoretical solution has been to have one string for each note in the scale and have the strings tuned by length, not tension or mass per unit length. This allows for tunings with different numbers of notes in an octave. To change from one tuning to another quickly on the same instrument, I think I could use boards that impose set strings lengths without altering tension. Each note on each board could be adjusted, but you swap one board for another to change many notes simultaneously (similarly you can have movable frets on interchangable fingerboards for melody strings on sitar like instruments). Also, if each string also had a part that was free to vibrate but the same length for all strings, this would make for quick tuning. (though this section may need to be damped during playing)
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Marcel de Velde<m.develde@...> wrote:
>> Just some friendly advice..
>> Perhaps it would be a good idea to first know with some certainty and
>> experience which tuning system you wish to use.
>> A tuning system you have made music with and have lived with for a while and
>> expect to keep using for some time to come, before designing / building /
>> buying an instrument for it. (12 notes per octave freely tunable may not
>> make you happy anymore in the future for instance)
>> As most people on the list have frequent tuning choice changes, and most
>> microtonal instruments are not suited for all possible microtunings (with
>> the exception of synthesizers/computer, fretless string instruments and
>> trombones).
>> Perhaps this is allready the case and you know exactly what you want to do
>> in the future tuning wise, but this wasn't yet evident to me from your post.
>>
>> Marcel
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

>You could also modify the design slightly, to give scales with non standard octaves. Movable frets might allow for slightly stretched or compressed octaves, while a different version, possibly with more strings, could have frets placed at tritave and double tritave positions for Bohlen Pierce type scales.

Yes! exactly. Or you could play the 3rd and 9th harmonics of the strings to obtain the repetitions of the tritave scales.

Interesting to discover that the Baliset is a 7EDO instrument. I've also just watched again the Dune movie clip of the modified Chapman Stick used as a rather awkward looking Baliset.

There are atleast 3 different versions of the Baliset. The Chapman stick version in the film was tuned to 12 edo, I think (and has 9 strings). The Dune Encyclopedia version is 7 edo and only has 2 frets (and 9 strings). The original Frank Herbert version from the novels is shrouded in mystery. Frank's dead now, so cannot be consulted. All I could find out about the original Frank Herbert Baliset is that it has 9 strings and is tuned to the "Chusuk" Scale. Chusuk is the name of a planet in the Dune Universe. The Dune Encyclopedia was not the work of Frank Herbert. It defines the Chusuk Scale as 7 edo. I have made the joke on stage before that the planet Chusuk was colonised by the descendants of the band Status Quo, since 7 notes is all you need to play the 3 chords that they use in all of their songs.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "ixlramp" <ixlramp@...> wrote:
>
> >You could also modify the design slightly, to give scales with non standard octaves. Movable frets might allow for slightly stretched or compressed octaves, while a different version, possibly with more strings, could have frets placed at tritave and double tritave positions for Bohlen Pierce type scales.
>
> Yes! exactly. Or you could play the 3rd and 9th harmonics of the strings to obtain the repetitions of the tritave scales.
>
> Interesting to discover that the Baliset is a 7EDO instrument. I've also just watched again the Dune movie clip of the modified Chapman Stick used as a rather awkward looking Baliset.
>

>Movable frets might allow for slightly stretched or compressed octaves

Modulation by any interval would be possible with movable frets too. For example frets at 204 cents above open note and above octave, when fretted, would transpose any scale up by a 9/8 just interval.

Hi Mark,

I have considered this issue myself, both from the point of view of making
> an instrument in it's own right and from the point of view of making a
> resonant string system to be part of a sitar, vena, serengi or sarod like
> instrument. Not wanting to be limited to 12 an octave is one of the things
> (but nowhere near the only thing) that puts me off synthesisers, since I
> think I would find it much harder to make or buy and non 12 midi controller
> than to make a mechanical instrument.

Oh I think you're mistaken here.
A non 12tet midi controller is it seems to me much easyer to be had than a
specialty microtonal instrument the kind you're describing.
Try for instance the axis 49 for a somewhat acceptably priced solution. You
can tune a wide variety of hardware synths, software synths / samplers to
any tuning you like and control it with the axis mapped to any mapping you
like.
http://www.c-thru-music.com/cgi/?page=prod_axis-49

One other nice possibility I think is to simply use a normal keyboard in
either 12notes per octave or 24 notes per octave mapping, and use a
pedalboard for realtime scale remapping should your tuning system require
this.
This can be done with Scala with preprogrammed MIDI messages (set these in
the relay.par file)
This could be all one needs.

Marcel

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thank you for your suggestions. I haven't been able to find a price on the page you put a link to. I will look further. I have tried 24 notes an octave mapping on a standard midi keyboard and it does not suit me at all. Some of the gigs I do are completely acoustic (that is, no amplification, no microphones), which disallows any kind of electronic synthesiser. My experience of Scala is that it is not reliable either as a relay or for retuning midi files. The device you linked to only seems to have usb output, not standard midi. The amount of equipment I would have to carry and buy mounts up quickly. I also do not have a lap top and don't want to carry a pc.

There are many other reasons why I don't like electronic instruments, including the fact that they usually need either mains connnections or batteries.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Mark,
>
> I have considered this issue myself, both from the point of view of making
> > an instrument in it's own right and from the point of view of making a
> > resonant string system to be part of a sitar, vena, serengi or sarod like
> > instrument. Not wanting to be limited to 12 an octave is one of the things
> > (but nowhere near the only thing) that puts me off synthesisers, since I
> > think I would find it much harder to make or buy and non 12 midi controller
> > than to make a mechanical instrument.
>
>
> Oh I think you're mistaken here.
> A non 12tet midi controller is it seems to me much easyer to be had than a
> specialty microtonal instrument the kind you're describing.
> Try for instance the axis 49 for a somewhat acceptably priced solution. You
> can tune a wide variety of hardware synths, software synths / samplers to
> any tuning you like and control it with the axis mapped to any mapping you
> like.
> http://www.c-thru-music.com/cgi/?page=prod_axis-49
>
> One other nice possibility I think is to simply use a normal keyboard in
> either 12notes per octave or 24 notes per octave mapping, and use a
> pedalboard for realtime scale remapping should your tuning system require
> this.
> This can be done with Scala with preprogrammed MIDI messages (set these in
> the relay.par file)
> This could be all one needs.
>
> Marcel
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

I've found a price. It's £305 pounds Sterling. I can make lots of instruments for that price and the ones I make would have features that I consider to be advantages, such as not not needing Scala, not needing a pc or lap top, not needing batteries or mains connection when practicing (and not needing a seperate mains connections from the amp when at amplified gigs), being easily adapted to be acoustic instruments, having a sound board that allows interaction between two notes played at the same time, having inbuilt pitch bending facility (The AXiS-49 doesn't even have a pitch wheel). Also, the fact that I almost exclusively play instruments that I have made myself appeals to a lot of people. And I can easily modify the design of an instrument that I have made myself, whereas modifying a bought instrument might be more difficult.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Mark,
>
> I have considered this issue myself, both from the point of view of making
> > an instrument in it's own right and from the point of view of making a
> > resonant string system to be part of a sitar, vena, serengi or sarod like
> > instrument. Not wanting to be limited to 12 an octave is one of the things
> > (but nowhere near the only thing) that puts me off synthesisers, since I
> > think I would find it much harder to make or buy and non 12 midi controller
> > than to make a mechanical instrument.
>
>
> Oh I think you're mistaken here.
> A non 12tet midi controller is it seems to me much easyer to be had than a
> specialty microtonal instrument the kind you're describing.
> Try for instance the axis 49 for a somewhat acceptably priced solution. You
> can tune a wide variety of hardware synths, software synths / samplers to
> any tuning you like and control it with the axis mapped to any mapping you
> like.
> http://www.c-thru-music.com/cgi/?page=prod_axis-49
>
> One other nice possibility I think is to simply use a normal keyboard in
> either 12notes per octave or 24 notes per octave mapping, and use a
> pedalboard for realtime scale remapping should your tuning system require
> this.
> This can be done with Scala with preprogrammed MIDI messages (set these in
> the relay.par file)
> This could be all one needs.
>
> Marcel
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

>while a different version, possibly with more strings, could have frets placed at tritave and double tritave positions for Bohlen Pierce type scales.

A single instrument with 11 strings could be used for both octave and tritave scales.

The 11 strings would have open notes covering roughly an octave+fifth. Enough to provide the 11 notes of an octave+fifth of a heptatonic octave-repeating scale (7 tones plus tonic, 2nd, 3rd and 4th of the next octave). Or, providing the 9, 10 or 11 scale tones of a tritave scale.

Frets could be placed at 498c (4th harmonic) 702c (3rd harmonic) 1200c (Octave and 2nd harmonic) 1902c (Octave+fifth and 3rd harmonic) 2400c (2 octaves and 4th harmonic).

I've yet to try this idea out, I will probably restring my 6 string bass for pentatonic and hexatonic scales.

Why start with 7 ET when you might see what 7 tone scale you do tune by ear?

/^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

a momentary antenna as i turn to water
this evaporates - an island once again

On 23/09/10 11:15 AM, ixlramp wrote:
> Xenharmonic electric harp guitar continued...
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> The instrument would first be set-up in a standby open tuning of 7TET. String gauges are chosen so that each string can be retuned at least 2 semitones up or down. This allows quick retuning to almost any xenharmonic scale just by using the guitar tuners.
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> This design also allows very intuitive creation of new xenharmonic scales purely by ear, by adjusting the tuners while playing across the strings and playing a drone on the string chosen as the tonic.
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> Standard electric guitars can be easily restrung to create this instrument. 6 string guitars are limited to hexatonic or pentatonic scales. When using a pentatonic scale the spare top string is tuned to the octave above the lowest string.
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> Yahoo! Groups Links
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Thank you to all who have contributed to this thread. I have made some progress with one of my own designs. It would take too long to describe how it works. I will describe the workings when I have successfully built and tested it. The design resembles a harp or santoor. You have a different instrument for tunings with a different number of notes in an octave. The instrument has a range of 3 or 4 octaves. You tune it using sliders. Each slider controls not just one note, but the all the notes that are a whole number of octaves from that note. Each note can be retuned over a range of about 2 octaves. Hopefully you will also be able to move the sliders during play for dynamic tuning, portamento and vibrato. The way the instrument is played is a separate issue from the way it is tuned. I am thinking of harp style, hammered dulcimer style or a style I have invented myself which combines making chord shapes on a keyboard with the left hand to operate dampers to block notes you don't want with plucking with a pick held in the right hand (almost like an auto harp)

I'm using my phone so I can't check through all the posts. If I have made this point before then I am sorry for repeating myself. One of the things that interests me about your design is that it strongly resembles one of the traditional ways to play lyre. Some lyres have 6 or 7 strings tuned to one octave of a hexatonic or heptatonic scale and allow the use of harmonics to get notes an octave above the notes the strings are tuned to. This interests me for quite a few reasons. One is that the instrument I play most often is the "lyre-guitar" inwhich the force of guitar strings is taken by a lyre-like frame allowing a variety of microtonic fretboards to be removed and swapped one for another without having to loosen the strings. Another reason I am interested in the lyre is that lyres and harps are thought to be the instruments used by Celtic, Norse and British bards, who's tradition I aspire to. (I am a singer/songsmith with a leaning towards story telling).

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "ixlramp" <ixlramp@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Kraig!
>
> I'm identifying 7EDO as the average of all possible heptatonic scales, in order to choose string gauges so that the strings have medium tension at their average pitches.
>
> It should then be possible to retune each string +/- 2 or 3 semitones from their average pitch, to reach the pitches of the scale tones without the strings becoming excessively tight or loose.
>
> Mat Cooper
>

Ah... I was wondering if harp and lyre players used harmonics to extend their range.

I think your lyre guitar and bass are impressive DIY builds. I like the crazy frets and your choice of symbols on the fretboard. I've noticed how the frame can to rest on both legs, supporting the instrument in a stable way.

Your new 'slider harp' design sounds interesting.

My harp guitar idea was actually thought up as a way to quickly, reversibly and cheaply modify a conventional fretted guitar into a xenharmonic instrument, just for the price of a custom set of single strings.

Mat Cooper.

Your lyre-guitar reminds me of this baritone 8 string guitar. There are adjustable connectors between the end of the neck and the sustainbow frame. The strings are anchored on the frame:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v643/parramatta/Auerswald_venus_jpg_jpg.jpg

The luthier specialises in sustainbow guitars:

http://www.auerswald-instruments.com/index.html

Mat Cooper.

At 11:33 PM 9/21/10 -0000, Mark wrote:

> However, I want to play mechanically real instruments, not synthesisers.
I will make them myself (that is not a problem). What instruments do people
suggest that can be easily carried to and from a gig, can be tuned to
irregular temperaments or intonations and permit the player to sing at the
same time as playing chords? Ideally I want to be able to play without
looking at what I'm doing so that I can look the audience in the eye while
I sing to them.
>I do not want to play fretless guitar or slide guitar. I want instruments
that are specifically tuned to scales to make it easier for me.

Would a sitar meet your needs, or would you rather tune each string
independently?

-- Beco dos Gatinhos <http://www.rev.net/~aloe/music/pitch.html>

>Why start with 7 ET when you might see what 7 tone scale you
> do tune by ear?
> > The instrument would first be set-up in a standby open tuning of 7TET. String gauges are chosen so that each string can be retuned at least 2 semitones up or down. This allows quick retuning to almost any xenharmonic scale just by using the guitar tuners.

Hi Kraig :) What I mean is I am identifying 7EDO as the average of all the heptatonic scales that will be used.

Since a guitar string has a usable retuning range of perhaps +/- 3 semitones from a medium-light tension it's essential to choose the correct string gauges so that almost all most heptatonic scales can be tuned to without each string either getting too tight or too loose.

To choose gauges one needs to know what the average pitch of each string will be, and then choose a gauge so that the string has medium-light tension at that pitch.

So the 'standby' open tuning is 7EDO at absolute pitches, the average tuning of all future heptatonic tunings. This tuning therefore also has the average total tension. So the instrument is set-up (truss rod adjustment, intonation for each string, bridge saddle heights for each string) while in the 'standby' tuning.

This design idea has many disadvantages and is fairly crazy. That's because I initially developed it as one way of cheaply and reversibly converting a standard fretted guitar or bass into a xenharmonic instrument, just by buying a custom set of single strings.

My other idea which is a little more promising is 'bichromatic tuning', explained in great detail here: http://www.notonlymusic.com/board/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=527

Mat Cooper

Hi Mat,

Your computer's clock is set back a week or so... -Carl

I wrote:

>Hi Mat,
>
>Your computer's clock is set back a week or so...

...or are these more delayed Yahoo deliveries? -Carl

Sorry about my duplicated posts. To explain, roughly a week ago I sent 3 posts which didn't show up in the messages list. So the next day I re-wrote and sent similar messages again, this time successfully. The original unsuccessful posts have now all appeared, to my amusement and slight embarrassment. Heh!

Mat Cooper.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
> ...or are these more delayed Yahoo deliveries? -Carl

They are indeed. I've deleted one of each duplicated post.

Mat Cooper.