Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup makemicromusic Quarter-tone Piano Prelude on YouTube

> Here's another item of interest...
>
> jls
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5sI-s4E9js&feature=related
>

Thanks for posting.

But my personal feeling on this kind of music..
Every time I'm going to hear 24tet piano music I hope that someone finally
made something nice.
But every time it's this same complete crap (again, my personal opinion /
taste).
It's like someone without any musical feeling just ploinks away at those 24
notes without any clue whatsoever what to do with all those notes, then
makes a few akward sounding "melody" loops (or worse, nonsensical chords)
and calls it "music" pff..
One can make atonal nonsense in 12tet allready, but 24tet seems to give even
more ways to get lost.

I've to this day only found one good album of 24tet piano music.
It's on Abdallah Chahine's piano.
A piano modified with an extra pedal to give 5 extra quarter notes (and
becomes regular 12tet when the pedal is depressed).
Here's the info: http://www.musimem.com/chahine-eng.htm

I could only find one short audio excerpt online.
Click here to stream: http://orientaltunes.com/realaudio/Taqsim_Ajam-288.ram
Or here to download: http://orientaltunes.com/realaudio/Taqsim_Ajam-288.rm
Found the audio on this page:
http://www.orientaltunes.com/listening_page2.html
Haven't found a cd of this performance yet though.

The cd I did find was by another artist on Chahine's piano (a tribute to
Chahine)
It's called "al nagham al khaled - hommage à abdallah chahine".
If anybody wants it I could share it (offlist)
It's very interesting, even has mild maqam polyphony!

This is clearly the way to treat 24tet. With modes similar to the way 12tet
is best used.
And I really like the Chahine music, but compared to Beethoven or Bach etc I
can't help but see that the really great 24tet music is yet to be made.
(and that the plink ploink atonal "modern western" approach clearly isn't
the way to get there)

Marcel

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

🔗jonszanto <jszanto@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...> wrote:
> But my personal feeling on this kind of music..
> Every time I'm going to hear 24tet piano music I hope that someone finally
> made something nice.
> But every time it's this same complete crap (again, my personal opinion /
> taste).

I really want to see your sense of restraint if anyone ever describes what you do with music in this way, but I'm sure it will never happen.

Have you ever heard Charles Ives' "Three Pieces for Two Quarter-tone Pianos"? I didn't think so.

Maybe you should start signing your posts "Rollo". It would fit right in. In the meantime, look up the concept of constructive criticism.

🔗hfmlacerda <hfmlacerda@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...> wrote:
> I've to this day only found one good album of 24tet piano music.
> It's on Abdallah Chahine's piano.
> A piano modified with an extra pedal to give 5 extra quarter notes (and
> becomes regular 12tet when the pedal is depressed).
> Here's the info: http://www.musimem.com/chahine-eng.htm
>
> I could only find one short audio excerpt online.
> Click here to stream: http://orientaltunes.com/realaudio/Taqsim_Ajam-288.ram
> Or here to download: http://orientaltunes.com/realaudio/Taqsim_Ajam-288.rm
> Found the audio on this page:
> http://www.orientaltunes.com/listening_page2.html
> Haven't found a cd of this performance yet though.
[...]
> This is clearly the way to treat 24tet. With modes similar to the way 12tet
> is best used.

That excerpt is in 12-edo, is it not?

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

Hi John,

Have you ever heard Charles Ives' "Three Pieces for Two Quarter-tone
> Pianos"? I didn't think so.
>

Offcourse I have.
And it's among the 24tet music I was referring to.
I don't find it musical at all and the wrong way to use 24tet.

I'm not saying all 24tet should be like arabic music.
But it seems like a very good starting point, and atleast have a modal
approach to 24tet instead of an ultra chromatic approach on main melodies.
On can play everything and claim it's music when doing it the ultra
chromatic way.

Btw this I do like:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44uq4VsIEP8
It's not in arabic style, but does capture a specific 24tet mood in a
musical way (even though it's just a short repeating loop)
There are several other song on the album "selected ambient works ii" that
seemt to be in 24tet that use it to great effect.

>
> Maybe you should start signing your posts "Rollo". It would fit right in.
> In the meantime, look up the concept of constructive criticism.
>

Maybe I was slightly exagerating indeed. Though it's my personal opinion and
I stated it as such.
And I wasn't putting down any list members music. I was talking about the
youtube video and common use of 24tet in piano music in general.

Marcel

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

Hi Hudson,

That excerpt is in 12-edo, is it not?

Well indeed it is!
I only had a casual quick listen and assumed it was in 24tet!
It's hard to tell when not listening carefully for me because of the modes
used /way of playing give such a strong arabic feel.

The main cd I refered to "al nagham al khaled" does have half of its songs
in 24tet btw. (other half 12tet aswell which I did notice)

Marcel

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

Marcel wrote:

>Btw this I do like:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44uq4VsIEP8
>It's not in arabic style, but does capture a specific 24tet mood in a
>musical way (even though it's just a short repeating loop)
>There are several other song on the album "selected ambient works ii" that
>seemt to be in 24tet that use it to great effect.

What do you make of this:

http://tonalsoft.com/monzo/24-eq/24eqtune.mid

-Carl

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

Hi Carl,

What do you make of this:
>
> http://tonalsoft.com/monzo/24-eq/24eqtune.mid
>
> -Carl
>

Thanks!
Not sure what to make of it actually :)
I do hear the quarter tones in the melodies as very distinct individual
notes.
Though I'm not very fond of the melodies I think, many quarter notes and
changing all the time (as opposed to 3/4 notes in arabic music).
And although at some points the harmonies made have a "meaning" to me, most
of the harmonies don't.
Also it's a bit like the microtones get lost in harmony and the harmonies do
most of the time not strengthen the feel of the melodies to me.
But, it doesn't get as lost as in most 24tet music.
So I'm really not sure what to think of it.
I don't like and don't dislike I think.. I do think it's interesting.
But I don't think it's there yet.

Also, it seems to me that perhaps 24tet is used here to try to indicate a
1/1 5/4 3/2 7/4 sometimes? I don't think this is to be expected from 24tet.
I do think 7/4 can happen in 24tet, bute not with 5/4.
And that 24tet offers new harmonic possibilities and dynamics and that the
ear will understand this without beeing used to it.

Try for instance:
C Eb F -> B Db+ E (where Db+ is 3/4 note above C, not sure how to
write that in an email)
Or in JI:
1/1 19/16 4/3 -> 15/16 35/32 5/4
You can't do that in 12tet and have it make thesame sense / meaning, and
these chords hold the power/emotion of the 3/4 tone, unlike most 24tet music
where these special colors / new meanings are lost. btw this getting lost of
color is the 24tet music I was arguing against)

Marcel

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

> Try for instance:
> C Eb F -> B Db+ E (where Db+ is 3/4 note above C, not sure how to
> write that in an email)
> Or in JI:
> 1/1 19/16 4/3 -> 15/16 35/32 5/4
> You can't do that in 12tet and have it make thesame sense / meaning, and
> these chords hold the power/emotion of the 3/4 tone, unlike most 24tet music
> where these special colors / new meanings are lost. btw this getting lost of
> color is the 24tet music I was arguing against)
>
> Marcel
>

Or a clearer example:
1/1 19/16 3/2 57/32 -> 35/32 33/24 105/64 15/8 -> 19/16 3/2 57/32 2/1
Play that one a few times back a forth.
I like it, it has strong quarter tones in it, the melodies move in
(different) modes without quarter tones, it doesn't sound out of tune to me,
but does have a strong color that can't be had in 12tet.
I do think that when harmonising 24tet modes one can have quarter steps in
some of the melodies though.
24tet is after all a super chromatic 12tet I think, but as I said before I
think it's best approached with as much diatonic like modes as possible.
Just like 12tet chromatic music from common practice perios (which is
anything but atonal music)

Marcel

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗jsmith9624@...

Hey again,

While I found the chat over the quarter-tone music I linked to earlier
quite stimulating & all, that particular post was just an afterthought
-- the *real* item of interest I intended (& naively expected) to be
discussed was the "Fluid Piano". My mistake.

Here's that link *again*, because inquiring micro-tonal minds really
want to know...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7Cq3pbcMkI&feature=fvw
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7Cq3pbcMkI&feature=fvw>

Best,
jls

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

At 02:06 PM 9/19/2010, you wrote:
>Hey again,
>
>While I found the chat over the quarter-tone music I linked to earlier
>quite stimulating & all, that particular post was just an afterthought
>-- the *real* item of interest I intended (& naively expected) to be
>discussed was the "Fluid Piano". My mistake.
>
>Here's that link *again*, because inquiring micro-tonal minds really
>want to know...
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7Cq3pbcMkI&feature=fvw

Hiya Jon - the fluid piano was discussed, either here or on tuning,
when it debuted. Try

/tuning/msearch?query=fluid+piano

-Carl

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

Caught this a while back as I would like such a toy but maybe it is closer to a stroked harpsichord than a piano, missing the volume and string tension and the multiple strings. Imagine a bosanquet one:)

/^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

a momentary antenna as i turn to water
this evaporates - an island once again

On 20/09/10 7:06 AM, jsmith9624@... wrote:
> Hey again,
>
> While I found the chat over the quarter-tone music I linked to earlier
> quite stimulating& all, that particular post was just an afterthought
> -- the *real* item of interest I intended (& naively expected) to be
> discussed was the "Fluid Piano". My mistake.
>
> Here's that link *again*, because inquiring micro-tonal minds really
> want to know...
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7Cq3pbcMkI&feature=fvw
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7Cq3pbcMkI&feature=fvw>
>
> Best,
> jls
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

🔗jsmith9624@...

Oops...my ignorance is showing.

Sorry for the repeat, then... just goes to show what being out of the
loop a few years will do to the feeble-minded! Thanks for the heads-up,
Carl.

Best,
jls

[We return now to our previously scheduled discussion]

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:

> Hiya Jon - the fluid piano was discussed, either here or on tuning,
> when it debuted. Try
>
> /tuning/msearch?query=fluid+piano
>
> -Carl
>

🔗John Moriarty <JlMoriart@...>

I dig those youtube videos, but I've had a similar experience with 24-edo in that it is a default microtonal tuning for pianists that I don't think is used well *very often*.

I think the main problem is not the tunings however. I think it's that people try to relate it to 12-edo, using 12-edo scales and harmonies in combination with 24-edo scales and harmonies, which just doesn't work for me most of the time.

I've tried looking at 24-edo from a linear temperament perspective in the dicot temperament (25/24=1) where the intervals 5/4 and 6/5 are equated, and up two 5/4's (or 6/5's) is used to approximate 3/2. This actually makes a lot of sense because the interval 350 cents (a 24-edo "neutral third") stacked up twice gives you a good "fifth", and it is halfway between 5/4 and 6/5, so is used as both.

It's provided some very cool MOS scales and harmonies, so once I get the hang of Scala and figure out what microtuning capable softsynth I should learn, I hope to make some 24-edo music that doesn't *sound* like 24-edo ;-) I'm thinking some far out techno...

John