NOT looking for a list...

To put a stopper on all this:

- For those of you who definitely caught the irony, good on you. I realize I don't post as often as in the past, so I don't expect everyone to catch the drift.

- For those of you who thought I was serious, well, in a way, I am.

Look: I started this list *many* years ago as an ALTERNATIVE to the main tuning list. There was nothing wrong with the tuning list, but I and a couple of others felt a sister/brother list, with an emphasis on the tools, techniques, workflows and inspirations that lead to both the process of composition of a piece, as well as an end-performance/recording, could be of value. Nothing in *that* particular mission statement devalues research and discussion over intonational and tuning matters per se, it merely acknowledges that the next step is doing something with that knowledge.

Daniel and the couple of other posts who pointed to some of their music, thanks. I'll be sure to get to it, and I've neglected Daniel's output, which there seems to be much of. I love Prent to death, and I love his music, but he's as non-moderational of a moderator as you can get! That the list has drifted saddens me, but it isn't my list any more.

So, I'm not really looking for a list. On the other hand, these days there isn't much interest for me in looking *at* this one. I wish it wasn't so.

Jon

Jon>"Look: I started this list *many* years ago as an ALTERNATIVE to the main
tuning list...Nothing in *that* particular mission statement devalues research
and discussion over intonational and tuning matters per se, it merely
acknowledges that the next step is doing something with that knowledge."
Just a hunch.
The tuning list, I swear, has become a bit overrun. Meaning if you mention
ideas there without some huge type of scientific backup (huge survey and/or
reference to papers and/or reference to equations), you can easily get called a
troll and/or not taken seriously.

People on the Tuning (and not even the tuning-math!) list often tell me
"what you are saying has little substantiated evidence in tuning and, as being
so much more subjective, really has much more to do with just music...put that
kind of discussion on the MMM list, not here!" Meanwhile when I talk about how
I think a chord sounds subjectively here (same sort of topic), the response is
often "that's too technical...and has little to do with sharing musical
examples, put it on the Tuning list!" Can you say double standard? :-D

See the apparent problem? IMVHO, the tuning list is not the middle ground
tuning-math and MMM I believe it should be...only very strict academic theories
seem to be taken seriously while middle-of-the-road theories seem to be ignored
or even set into flame wars IE "we need to knock this guy off the list because
he's not 'smart' enough". There are a few people who actually start fights with
people regularly and call them things like psuedoscientists and "people who
think they are perfect" or even say "x person is an idiot" as if it would
somehow help the list. No wonder there is over-flow onto this list...especially
among those who have somewhat 'subjective' views on tuning and aren't overly
interested having to be hardcore academics to be respected in the form they
discuss their theories.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Meanwhile...here is some music I've made a couple of months ago
->
http://www.archive.org/download/Split_Notes_-_Crack_My_Pitch_Up/04_Paragon_-_Coral_Garden.mp3

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is based on the compositional ideas of using chained neutral seconds to
allow jazzy-sounding clustered chords not possible in 12TET and is much inspired
by the Ptolemy Homalon scale (which has similar neutral second compositional
possibilities). It also has low and high-frequency-focused timbre among
different instruments that provide a sense of space and prevent tonal overlap
production-wise. Together, these techniques are designed to allow the mind to
decipher many more tones at once than usual without struggling. This production
focus, along with a beat that off moves the snares completely off the beat
(hence a dynamically rotating meter rhythmic timing feel)..all of which
hopefully leads to a "dense but clear and relaxed" sound and allowing a
sensation of slowness and quickness at the same time. Expect more of this kind
of thing (but in a much slower song) in my Untwelve competition entry.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Valles Marineris in Carlos harmonic scale and pianoteq effects
This has been sitting around for a year and is still a WIP. I thought Jon
might need some more music today.

download
http://notonlymusic.com/board/download/file.php?id=1434
Online play and tuning details
http://notonlymusic.com/board/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=596&start=0

On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 1:48 PM, jonszanto <jszanto@...> wrote:

So, I'm not really looking for a list. On the other hand, these days there
isn't much interest for me in looking *at* this one. I wish it wasn't so.

Jon

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 9/15/2010 10:48 AM, jonszanto wrote:
> I love Prent to death, and I love his music, but he's as non-moderational of a moderator as you can get!

For what it's worth, I'm still here as a backup moderator as well. But, as a parent, I'm fairly laid back and I tend to ignore the sounds of little kiddies squabbling in the next room, unless I hear someone start crying or there's a broken bone to mend. ;-)

All the name-calling and theoretical arguing such does tend to get boring... People seem to take their theories way too seriously. It would be nicer here, and more on-topic, if people stayed away from too much theoretical stuff, unless they're mentioning it because they have musical examples to back it up.

And as long as I'm chiming in... I haven't done much with music lately mysefl, which is why I haven't been sharing it here. :-)

Rick

Ah. Cool. This is what I think this list should be about. Here we see a guy post a link to a piece and then tell us about the tuning and the intent without getting too theoretical. Bravo!

The piece takes a while to get going (~30 secs), but after that, I hear some nice stuff. I'd be happier if the kind of change that occurs around 1:05 occurred earlier, and the ostinato were a little more varied throughout. The changes around 1:38 and 2:26 are very nice and welcome when they occur.

I thought some of the solo melodic work might be nice with a a more sustained and legato timbre, like a clarinet or something.

Rick

On 9/15/2010 11:11 AM, Michael wrote:
> Meanwhile...here is some music I've made a couple of months ago
> ->
> http://www.archive.org/download/Split_Notes_-_Crack_My_Pitch_Up/04_Paragon_-_Coral_Garden.mp3
>
> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>
> It is based on the compositional ideas of using chained neutral seconds to
> allow jazzy-sounding clustered chords not possible in 12TET and is much inspired
> by the Ptolemy Homalon scale (which has similar neutral second compositional
> possibilities). It also has low and high-frequency-focused timbre among
> different instruments that provide a sense of space and prevent tonal overlap
> production-wise. Together, these techniques are designed to allow the mind to
> decipher many more tones at once than usual without struggling.

Michael wrote:

>Meanwhile...here is some music I've made a couple of months ago
>->
>http://www.archive.org/download/Split_Notes_-_Crack_My_Pitch_Up/04_Par
>agon_-_Coral_Garden.mp3

Very nice! (I still haven't had time to listen to the album)

-Carl

>"It would be nicer here, and more on-topic, if people stayed away from too much
>theoretical
>
stuff, unless they're mentioning it because they have musical examples to
back it up."

The irony...whenever I post actual music I get little to no
response...whenever I post theory I often do. I've even had people complain
"you never submit music" when I submit about one new song every month or two
(and used to post a lot more before I realized I was probably "taking up space"
by posting music that received virtually no response. No one has replied to my
"Coral Garden" song post made much earlier today either...wow, no surprise. :-S

If we want more music posting here...IMVHO, let's make sure to have some in
depth discussions about music every time music is posted...rather than letting
it fall through the cracks.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Michael wrote:
>No one has replied to my "Coral Garden" song post made much
>earlier today either...wow, no surprise. :-S

?? Both Rick and I replied, and Rick gave very thoughtful
comments. Though it probably would help if you didn't bury
the link in an ocean of text (the sea of exclamation marks
doesn't really help).

-Carl

Carl>"?? Both Rick and I replied, and Rick gave very thoughtful
comments"
Turns out I replied to Rick's but not yours (yet). Sorry if I confused
anyone...when I gave the "no comments" post it was before I had received you
two's reply e-mails.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 1:48 PM, jonszanto <jszanto@...> wrote:
>
> To put a stopper on all this:
>
> - For those of you who definitely caught the irony, good on you. I realize I don't post as often as in the past, so I don't expect everyone to catch the drift.
>
> - For those of you who thought I was serious, well, in a way, I am.
>
> Look: I started this list *many* years ago as an ALTERNATIVE to the main tuning list. There was nothing wrong with the tuning list, but I and a couple of others felt a sister/brother list, with an emphasis on the tools, techniques, workflows and inspirations that lead to both the process of composition of a piece, as well as an end-performance/recording, could be of value. Nothing in *that* particular mission statement devalues research and discussion over intonational and tuning matters per se, it merely acknowledges that the next step is doing something with that knowledge.

Jon,

I started the discussion that I did with your mission statement in
mind. After spending so much time learning about scales, I heard
knowsur's album and it blew my mind because it used a temperament I
could never get to sound good. So I wanted to hear how other composers
dealt with this issue, since there was clearly some insight that I am
lacking. I am tired of only studying theory and want to start writing
music. Thus it seemed at the time that MMM was the right place to have
this sort of discussion.

The discussion then spontaneously went back into tuning theory,
because I guess that's what people wanted to talk about. George Secor
came back and posted on the matter, Kraig and Carl got into a
discussion, etc. It ended up becoming so technical that I posted an
offshoot onto the tuning list which has gotten so much further into
theory than I have previously delved that it's actually somewhat
exciting.

So it's not surprising to me that when talking about how to actually
make music with tunings that theoretically are labeled "inaccurate,"
some kind of related discussion broke out about the tunings themselves
or why they can still "work" or whatever. All I really wanted to hear
were people's insights into how to use dissonant tunings effectively
to create music, which I got from Igs: stop messing with GM timbres,
set up keyboard mappings, "there is no bad tuning," etc. Thus I am
happy. However, if you'd like me to make posts like this on the main
tuning list instead, I can do that too. It seemed appropriate at the
time to post it onto MMM.

-Mike

> Meanwhile...here is some music I've made a couple of months ago
> ->
>
> http://www.archive.org/download/Split_Notes_-_Crack_My_Pitch_Up/04_Paragon_-_Coral_Garden.mp3
>

Aah it has very nice things in it! :)
Cool

I like it, so please take my next comment as constructive.
Perhaps you could work on the mix some more.
Some parts of the mix seem to work well, some other parts not.
For instance the sounds comming in at 48 seconds sound like they don't
belong to the mix at all.
They're very soft and don't sit right.
Perhaps this is a speaker thing though and they sound right on your personal
setup, but I don't think it will sound right on most speakers.

Cheers,
Marcel

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 2:11 PM, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:
>
> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> Meanwhile...here is some music I've made a couple of months ago
> ->
> http://www.archive.org/download/Split_Notes_-_Crack_My_Pitch_Up/04_Paragon_-_Coral_Garden.mp3
>
> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> It is based on the compositional ideas of using chained neutral seconds to
> allow jazzy-sounding clustered chords not possible in 12TET and is much inspired
> by the Ptolemy Homalon scale (which has similar neutral second compositional
> possibilities). It also has low and high-frequency-focused timbre among
> different instruments that provide a sense of space and prevent tonal overlap
> production-wise. Together, these techniques are designed to allow the mind to
> decipher many more tones at once than usual without struggling. This production
> focus, along with a beat that off moves the snares completely off the beat
> (hence a dynamically rotating meter rhythmic timing feel)..all of which
> hopefully leads to a "dense but clear and relaxed" sound and allowing a
> sensation of slowness and quickness at the same time. Expect more of this kind
> of thing (but in a much slower song) in my Untwelve competition entry.

This does work really well. What are you doing? Low and high frequency
focused timbre? What scale is this in? Can you give a scala file?

I think you should post musical examples to back your theories up more
often. as I have often stated, sometimes I think you have good ideas,
but don't communicate them in a way that we can understand. There are
insane little shades of tonality in this, do you have a MIDI file or
something? The sax that you're using seems to be "polytonal" compared
to the rest of this, I wonder if you there exists some kind of tonal
system in it. It would be interesting to apply Paul's ideas on
tonality to this scale... can you post a scala file of the notes you'
reusing?

I am obliged to say that I think that your compositional techniques
are working well here from some kind of "maximal counterpoint"
perspective; it is possible to make music in which notes have the same
timbre and are in the same range too of course. This just means that
the notes merge together into unified sonorities in which the
individual notes are difficult to distinguish, which is part of why
some people like common practice music so much, I think.

Also, what program did you use to make this?

-Mike

the worse the music, the more response

/^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

a momentary antenna as i turn to water
this evaporates - an island once again

On 16/09/10 5:22 AM, Michael wrote:
> The irony...whenever I post actual music I get little to no
> response...

>"the worse the music, the more response"
Now wouldn't that be an easy cop out. :-D To be fair I don't usually see
anyone else getting much of a response for their music either...minus the
occasional "good stuff!" or "I'm afraid this doesn't work for me". Not that the
last song I posted today didn't get a response...but I find it untypical to get
that much input (and by that much I mean just a few people responding). Now
responses with actual timestamps of things the listen did/didn't like...I was
lucky enough to get that level of detailed criticism in my last response and
only hope more people follow suit. :-)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

No one gets much response should be taken as a compliment to all.

/^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

a momentary antenna as i turn to water
this evaporates - an island once again

On 16/09/10 1:21 PM, Michael wrote:
>> "the worse the music, the more response"
> Now wouldn't that be an easy cop out. :-D To be fair I don't usually see
> anyone else getting much of a response for their music either...minus the
> occasional "good stuff!" or "I'm afraid this doesn't work for me". Not that the
> last song I posted today didn't get a response...but I find it untypical to get
> that much input (and by that much I mean just a few people responding). Now
> responses with actual timestamps of things the listen did/didn't like...I was
> lucky enough to get that level of detailed criticism in my last response and
> only hope more people follow suit. :-)
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

One thing i would like people to consider. since there is such little music posted, it would be good that people didn't post other music right on top of others. Allot of music gets lost that way i think.

While Prent is always a powerhouse of new music all the time on his blog, i suggest he might throw a post this way every once in a while too

/^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

a momentary antenna as i turn to water
this evaporates - an island once again

On 16/09/10 7:37 PM, Kraig Grady wrote:
> No one gets much response should be taken as a compliment to all.
>
>
> /^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
> Mesotonal Music from:
> _'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island<http://anaphoria.com/>
>
> _'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
> Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria
> <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>
>
> ',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',
>
> a momentary antenna as i turn to water
> this evaporates - an island once again
>
> On 16/09/10 1:21 PM, Michael wrote:
>>> "the worse the music, the more response"
>> Now wouldn't that be an easy cop out. :-D To be fair I don't usually see
>> anyone else getting much of a response for their music either...minus the
>> occasional "good stuff!" or "I'm afraid this doesn't work for me". Not that the
>> last song I posted today didn't get a response...but I find it untypical to get
>> that much input (and by that much I mean just a few people responding). Now
>> responses with actual timestamps of things the listen did/didn't like...I was
>> lucky enough to get that level of detailed criticism in my last response and
>> only hope more people follow suit. :-)
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...> wrote:
>
> One thing i would like people to consider. since there is such
> little music posted, it would be good that people didn't post
> other music right on top of others. Allot of music gets lost
> that way i think.
>

I think this is not really practiceable. When a group reaches a certain size, the amount of traffic rises by nature.

But what could be done would be to mark postings where there is (a link to) music inside with a certain keyword in the title, such as [DEMO] (meaning "demo-tape") or something. That way postings with music could easily be found, even after a while.
--
Hans Straub

I'd suggest [music]

On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 9:09 AM, hstraub64 <straub@datacomm.ch> wrote:

>
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com <MakeMicroMusic%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...> wrote:
> >
> > One thing i would like people to consider. since there is such
> > little music posted, it would be good that people didn't post
> > other music right on top of others. Allot of music gets lost
> > that way i think.
> >
>
> I think this is not really practiceable. When a group reaches a certain
> size, the amount of traffic rises by nature.
>
> But what could be done would be to mark postings where there is (a link to)
> music inside with a certain keyword in the title, such as [DEMO] (meaning
> "demo-tape") or something. That way postings with music could easily be
> found, even after a while.
> --
> Hans Straub
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]