Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup makemicromusic [MMM] Beethoven and Lassus in Just Intonation

Hudson>"I think the beatings bring some life to the sounds, and reduce the
harshness of the JI versions, in the case. (I am sensible to
difference/resulting tones, and I usually find MIDI JI very harsh.)"
I have a similar take on this and JI in general. Adding a 3-7 cent "de-tune
beating" off perfect JI ratios makes a chorus effect that, IMVHO, softens many
sounds and makes them sound more flowing and string-section-like. And, under 8
cents error or so at least, it still keeps the same strong/solid sense of
intervals as JI.

But the fix for this issue is oh-so-easy...just de-tune all your pure-JI
intervals for your songs by a few cents to "add chorus". I do this all the
time...specifically for songs written in "straight" harmonic series, where the
mechanical feel of the soaring "periodicity buzz" becomes unbearably high to me
otherwise.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗hfmlacerda <hfmlacerda@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "hfmlacerda" <hfmlacerda@...> wrote:
> Hi Marcel,
> Considering the extremely static electronic timbre you have used, I prefer (by far) the tempered versions, although there are better options of temperaments. I think the beatings bring some life to the sounds, and reduce the harshness of the JI versions, in the case. (I am sensible to difference/resulting tones, and I usually find MIDI JI very harsh.)
> Hudson

Complementing:

I think JI intervals should used consireding carefully their musical consequences. For example, certain chords can achieve a degree of fusion that destroes the polyphony (one can only hear a single low sound), thus the musical parts should have the dynamics (intensity) adjusted for a balanced result. (Otherwise, the result may sound random, the voices appearing or being eclipsed/merged out with no musical justification.) Also, the attacks should not be exactly synchronous for clearity.

(I listened to your examples again, and found the JI versions really very harsh and agressive, but the tempered versions don't bother me.)

Hudson

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

Hi Hudson and Michael,

I agree with you both :)

But it's due to the harsh sound.
It's the harshest sound I know of that has mostly harmonic overtones.
It's the standard roland midi trombone sound found in most soundcards.
I managed to make it even harsher by removing the tremolo and vibrato.

But, the reason I like this sound is because it makes very clear the tuning.
One can clearly hear the floating of 12tet.
And if I were to use a wolf in the wrong place, this sound would make it
heard in a very clear way.

Nothing will ever sound right with this sound, I hate 12tet with it too.
But 12tet hides some of the harshness indeed because the floating tuning
gives a chorus like effect of the upper tones.
So as for soundquality 12tet makes it a bit nicer indeed.

But don't be worried about JI.
With a nice sound (for instance a real trombone) JI will sound amazing.
JI will actually make the instruments qualities better heard in polyphony,
as opposed to 12tet where overtones clash/float in harmonies.

However, my examples were not about soundquality or pleasantness of the
sound.
It's about the "in tune-ness" :)
And hopefully the musicall expressiveness /emotions that may go along with
beeing "in tune".

I've added another file that makes clear how this sound does with "normal
JI":
Classic 5-limit JI:
https://sites.google.com/site/develdenet/files/Beethoven_Drei_Equale_No1_%28classic-5-limit-JI%29.mp3
And hear how this harsh sound makes very clear how out of tune this is.

Here my M-JI:
https://sites.google.com/site/develdenet/files/Beethoven_Drei_Equale_no1_%28M-JI_09-08-2010%29.mp3
To make extra clear how wrong the classic 5-limit JI version is in
comparison.

Marcel

Hi Marcel,
> Considering the extremely static electronic timbre you have used, I prefer
> (by far) the tempered versions, although there are better options of
> temperaments. I think the beatings bring some life to the sounds, and reduce
> the harshness of the JI versions, in the case. (I am sensible to
> difference/resulting tones, and I usually find MIDI JI very harsh.)
> Hudson
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗hfmlacerda <hfmlacerda@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...> wrote:
[...]
> But, the reason I like this sound is because it makes very clear the tuning.
[...]
> Nothing will ever sound right with this sound, I hate 12tet with it too.
> But 12tet hides some of the harshness indeed because the floating tuning
> gives a chorus like effect of the upper tones.
> So as for soundquality 12tet makes it a bit nicer indeed.
[...]
> But don't be worried about JI.
> With a nice sound (for instance a real trombone) JI will sound amazing.
> JI will actually make the instruments qualities better heard in polyphony,
> as opposed to 12tet where overtones clash/float in harmonies.

Hi Marcel,

For electronic samples in just intonation, I think the accuracy of tuning using MIDI pitchbends (1/4096 of semitone) is *too rough*. That is the truly origin of the harshness. I think it is not all due to the timbre of a single note alone.

Consider using Standard MIDI Tuning (which is more precise), or generating the sounds using fluidsynth, timidity++ or other SoundFont software which accept a precise tuning definition (tuning tables). Better: generate directly the sounds using Csound, pd or any other software that allows full control on the sound synthesis. You will perceive that very small frequency differences of a few fractions of Hertz can cause very different results.

Cheers,
Hudson

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗hfmlacerda <hfmlacerda@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
>
> Hudson wrote:
>
> >For electronic samples in just intonation, I think the accuracy of
> >tuning using MIDI pitchbends (1/4096 of semitone) is *too rough*. That
> >is the truly origin of the harshness.
>
> How could that cause harshness, as opposed to some larger error?

Buzz of difference tones are more evident.

>
> It's more accurate than a piano can be tuned, and certainly more
> accurate than human ensembles can play. It's also more accurate
> than most samples, I'd wager.

We are considering very static electronic timbres (with many strong harmonics) in this discussion.

>
> -Carl
>

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

Hi Hudson,

Hi Marcel,
>
> For electronic samples in just intonation, I think the accuracy of tuning
> using MIDI pitchbends (1/4096 of semitone) is *too rough*. That is the truly
> origin of the harshness. I think it is not all due to the timbre of a single
> note alone.
>

Well.. You can hear the tuning error of the MIDI pitchbends in the JI
examples.
It's a slow variable floating. Often somewhere around 0.1 hertz or so.
I don't hear this as the thing that makes it harsh I think though.

> Consider using Standard MIDI Tuning (which is more precise), or generating
> the sounds using fluidsynth, timidity++ or other SoundFont software which
> accept a precise tuning definition (tuning tables).
>

I used timidity++.
It doesn't use the full resolution of MIDI pitchbends or of the MIDI tuning
standard (I've used it in the past)
MIDI tuning standard does indeed give slightly better results (audible as
even slower floating, perhaps 0.02 hertz or so on average), but with the way
I made my files with Scala and the note lengths I used somehow it gives a
small error with the overlapping notes (something MTS shouldn't do but did
in my case anyhow). Didn't bother to investigate but used the MIDI pitchbend
method instead for these files, the resulting harshness didn't differ in my
ears.

> Better: generate directly the sounds using Csound, pd or any other software
> that allows full control on the sound synthesis. You will perceive that very
> small frequency differences of a few fractions of Hertz can cause very
> different results.
>
> Cheers,
> Hudson
>

Yes, I agree and I wish to use Csound in the future.
I'm planning to use you MicroABC with Csound infact :)

Btw, when using very precice sounds, like a precision saw wave, and exact
tuning. Another thing comes into play.
The starting timing of the notes and the phase of the sound.
Am curious if the Csound instrument I end up using combined with the
precision MicroABC will give me will bring me into this territory.

Marcel

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

🔗hfmlacerda <hfmlacerda@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Hudson,
>
> Hi Marcel,
> >
> > For electronic samples in just intonation, I think the accuracy of tuning
> > using MIDI pitchbends (1/4096 of semitone) is *too rough*. That is the truly
> > origin of the harshness. I think it is not all due to the timbre of a single
> > note alone.
> >
>
> Well.. You can hear the tuning error of the MIDI pitchbends in the JI
> examples.
> It's a slow variable floating. Often somewhere around 0.1 hertz or so.
> I don't hear this as the thing that makes it harsh I think though.

Of course one cannot hear it as "mistuning", but I can perceive how it sounds different from very synchronized waveforms, and the harshness really bothers me a lot.

Note that the "harshness" includes the perception of difference/resulting tones -- perhaps resulting tones or 2nd order (or higher?) beat in rates higher than 0.1 Hz, or the effect is due to other causes, perhaps on the time domain (phases).

>
>
> > Consider using Standard MIDI Tuning (which is more precise), or generating
> > the sounds using fluidsynth, timidity++ or other SoundFont software which
> > accept a precise tuning definition (tuning tables).
> >
>
> I used timidity++.
> It doesn't use the full resolution of MIDI pitchbends or of the MIDI tuning
> standard (I've used it in the past)

A much more precise approach would use a frequency table for timidity or fluidsynth. But then you should be limited to 128 predefined pitches.

> Yes, I agree and I wish to use Csound in the future.
> I'm planning to use you MicroABC with Csound infact :)
>
> Btw, when using very precice sounds, like a precision saw wave, and exact
> tuning. Another thing comes into play.
> The starting timing of the notes and the phase of the sound.

I suspect the phase is not "another thing" in this matter. Its consequences are the most plausible hypothesis for why "JI in MIDI" is almost unbearably for me in most cases.

> Am curious if the Csound instrument I end up using combined with the
> precision MicroABC will give me will bring me into this territory.

microabc allows, in principle, very high tuning precision, since the semitone fraction can use any "int" denominator (but the pitch names can have at most 62 characters), but abc2midi uses MIDI pitchbends, and abc2sco is limited to the maximum denominator of 256 -- maybe we need to find some workaround for the pitches too near the natural notes of 12-EDO. The most obvious solution is to implement a Sagittal interpreter in abc2sco (and a JI-ratio-to-Sagittal converter in microabc).

>
> Marcel
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

🔗hfmlacerda <hfmlacerda@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

If you compare say Bach to Helmhotlz's work on inversions , It seems that j>s> preferred the more dissonant inversions in his counterpuntal writing. If one uses a recurrent sequence tuning one can appox . a tuning where all the intervals will beat equally giving one the great countrapuntal freedom without having to worry about con/dis. at all. Indonesian scales appear to have this property

/^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

a momentary antenna as i turn to water
this evaporates - an island once again

On 28/08/10 2:51 AM, hfmlacerda wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "hfmlacerda"<hfmlacerda@...> wrote:
>> Hi Marcel,
>> Considering the extremely static electronic timbre you have used, I prefer (by far) the tempered versions, although there are better options of temperaments. I think the beatings bring some life to the sounds, and reduce the harshness of the JI versions, in the case. (I am sensible to difference/resulting tones, and I usually find MIDI JI very harsh.)
>> Hudson
> Complementing:
>
> I think JI intervals should used consireding carefully their musical consequences. For example, certain chords can achieve a degree of fusion that destroes the polyphony (one can only hear a single low sound), thus the musical parts should have the dynamics (intensity) adjusted for a balanced result. (Otherwise, the result may sound random, the voices appearing or being eclipsed/merged out with no musical justification.) Also, the attacks should not be exactly synchronous for clearity.
>
> (I listened to your examples again, and found the JI versions really very harsh and agressive, but the tempered versions don't bother me.)
>
> Hudson
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

Hi Hudson,

>> >For electronic samples in just intonation, I think the accuracy of
>> >tuning using MIDI pitchbends (1/4096 of semitone) is *too rough*. That
>> >is the truly origin of the harshness.
>>
>> How could that cause harshness, as opposed to some larger error?
>
>Buzz of difference tones are more evident.

Not sure I hear those. The examples sounds slightly harsh
to me because the timbres themselves are slightly harsh, and
the 12-ET versions obscure this with roughness. They also
sound harsh on a slightly longer scale, because there is more
contrast between the triads and dominant chords and the melody
steps are slightly unequal.

>> It's more accurate than a piano can be tuned, and certainly more
>> accurate than human ensembles can play. It's also more accurate
>> than most samples, I'd wager.
>
>We are considering very static electronic timbres (with many strong
>harmonics) in this discussion.

Indeed. And in the past with electronic timbres, exact
accuracy has also annoyed some, because of phase cancelation
effects. For this reason people like Gene Smith and
Paul Erlich prefer microtemperament, with error of about a
cent or two. Prent Rodgers uses 72-ET in Csound to
approximate extended JI, which has average error in this range.
On the other hand, Dave Seidel uses Csound often with
perfect JI with very smooth results (though he also works with
timbre extensively so it's not quite the same as a pile of
trombones playing at velocity 120 :)

-Carl

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 2:24 AM, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
>
> Indeed. And in the past with electronic timbres, exact
> accuracy has also annoyed some, because of phase cancelation
> effects. For this reason people like Gene Smith and
> Paul Erlich prefer microtemperament, with error of about a
> cent or two. Prent Rodgers uses 72-ET in Csound to
> approximate extended JI, which has average error in this range.
> On the other hand, Dave Seidel uses Csound often with
> perfect JI with very smooth results (though he also works with
> timbre extensively so it's not quite the same as a pile of
> trombones playing at velocity 120 :)

Glad to hear I'm not the only one. Perhaps that's why exact JI is so
grating sometimes with bright timbres - perhaps random partials are
dropping out, and other ones are being accentuated, and that's why it
ends up being so irritating. Although JI with smoother timbres can be
an amazing effect indeed.

-Mike

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

There is always a problem with dropping a piece no written in JI into a tuning. Each key can sound different and what is placed in it might not work.

/^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

a momentary antenna as i turn to water
this evaporates - an island once again

On 30/08/10 5:28 PM, Mike Battaglia wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 2:24 AM, Carl Lumma<carl@...> wrote:
>> Indeed. And in the past with electronic timbres, exact
>> accuracy has also annoyed some, because of phase cancelation
>> effects. For this reason people like Gene Smith and
>> Paul Erlich prefer microtemperament, with error of about a
>> cent or two. Prent Rodgers uses 72-ET in Csound to
>> approximate extended JI, which has average error in this range.
>> On the other hand, Dave Seidel uses Csound often with
>> perfect JI with very smooth results (though he also works with
>> timbre extensively so it's not quite the same as a pile of
>> trombones playing at velocity 120 :)
> Glad to hear I'm not the only one. Perhaps that's why exact JI is so
> grating sometimes with bright timbres - perhaps random partials are
> dropping out, and other ones are being accentuated, and that's why it
> ends up being so irritating. Although JI with smoother timbres can be
> an amazing effect indeed.
>
> -Mike
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

🔗hfmlacerda <hfmlacerda@...>

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

> I heared again a pair of examples. Now I could pay attention to the
> "phaser" effect, which does not bother me. I really think the harshness is
> due to beating difference tones -- they sound like a random walking bass
> which makes no sense musically, and sound as the "distortion" effect.

Aah. If this were indeed the case then this would be a strong indication
I've tuned it all wrong :)
Perhaps.

But I personally think at the moment the beats do make sense musically and
are in tune with the music / musical structure.
And I can tell you for sure that they don't walk around randomly but have a
very clean structure (unlike they do in the classic 5-limit JI version for
example where they do walk around like a madman).
I personally think the beats in combination with this sound is what makes it
harsh to me.
Btw the sound itself has distortion (several types, among which nasty
digital distortion types).
I think parts of this distortion gets amplified / magnified in different
ways in different harmonies.

Marcel

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

🔗hfmlacerda <hfmlacerda@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...> wrote:
>
> > I heared again a pair of examples. Now I could pay attention to the
> > "phaser" effect, which does not bother me. I really think the harshness is
> > due to beating difference tones -- they sound like a random walking bass
> > which makes no sense musically, and sound as the "distortion" effect.
>
>
> Aah. If this were indeed the case then this would be a strong indication
> I've tuned it all wrong :)
> Perhaps.

No. I am just saying that difference tones makes obscure the bass line. Similarly, the just tuning sometimes merges all notes of a chord into a single sound event, obscuring the polyphony. These are consequences of applying a tuning (electronic) system to a work conceived for other tuning and media.

>
> But I personally think at the moment the beats do make sense musically and
> are in tune with the music / musical structure.
> And I can tell you for sure that they don't walk around randomly but have a
> very clean structure (unlike they do in the classic 5-limit JI version for
> example where they do walk around like a madman).

The mere presence of strong difference tones is musically disturbing for me.

(Of course the "classic 5-limit JI" sounds very mistuned, both melodically and harmonically.)

> I personally think the beats in combination with this sound is what makes it
> harsh to me.
> Btw the sound itself has distortion (several types, among which nasty
> digital distortion types).
> I think parts of this distortion gets amplified / magnified in different
> ways in different harmonies.
>
> Marcel
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

> Unfortunately, there is no ABC software able to render sound files using
> that high resolution. abc2midi will reduce it to the MIDI pitchbend
> resolution, and abc2sco only supports divisions up to 1/256 semitone
> (fortunately, microabc can optimize the accuracy inside this limit).
>
> Hudson
>

Yes I got that.
MIDI pitchbend resolution if used to its full is acurate enough as far as
I'm concerned.
And if I understand correctly, the abc2sco will give 1/256 semitone
resolution as a minimum after optimization by microabc?
1/256 is slightly course (though on the limit of acceptable to me) and if I
read correctly the practical resolution will be several time higher which
sounds great too to me.
I'm happy :)

Marcel

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

> No. I am just saying that difference tones makes obscure the bass line.
> Similarly, the just tuning sometimes merges all notes of a chord into a
> single sound event, obscuring the polyphony. These are consequences of
> applying a tuning (electronic) system to a work conceived for other tuning
> and media.
>

>
> The mere presence of strong difference tones is musically disturbing for
> me.
>

Ok I can see that.
And I agree they are too strong for musical enjoyment.

But I think that with a nice sound, played in an expressive way and in an
acoustic environment (reverb etc), these difference tones become very
background and musical.
In other words, I don't think it's the fault of JI, and that slightly
mistuning intervals as some have suggested is the wrong medicine.
The "patient" is not JI, but the sound / playing / environment / reproducing
equipment etc. JI will only lay bare unmusical things in these things much
more than 12tet does.

>
> (Of course the "classic 5-limit JI" sounds very mistuned, both melodically
> and harmonically.)
>

Glad our ears agree on this one :)
And a pretty important agreement I think.
As it shows that all the rejections of JI, like common practice music
doesn't work in JI, were based mostly on wrong ideas of what JI is capable
of.
Similarly as classic 5-limit JI didn't work, the older conceptions of
extended JI didn't work either. Nobody saw correct solutions to certain
problems and JI was deemed impossible.

Marcel

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗hfmlacerda <hfmlacerda@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...> wrote:
> > (Of course the "classic 5-limit JI" sounds very mistuned, both melodically
> > and harmonically.)
> >
>
> Glad our ears agree on this one :)
> And a pretty important agreement I think.
> As it shows that all the rejections of JI, like common practice music
> doesn't work in JI, were based mostly on wrong ideas of what JI is capable
> of.

My main criticism is against using MIDI pitch bends and sounds with strong partials for JI, assuming it is correct only because "the computer did it perfect".

> Similarly as classic 5-limit JI didn't work, the older conceptions of
> extended JI didn't work either. Nobody saw correct solutions to certain
> problems and JI was deemed impossible.

Two cases I find specially misguided are the use of 4:5:6:7 as dominant chord (it may sound very wrong both melodically and harmonically in several circumstances), and the use of 5:6:7:9 as a representant of the II degree, preceding the dominant (it sounds as bVII which fundamental is a resulting tone, cross-related to the 3rd of the dominant chord, that is: something totally different from II-V). I don't think any soft timbre can correct that.

>
> Marcel
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

Hi Hudson,

My main criticism is against using MIDI pitch bends and sounds with strong
> partials for JI, assuming it is correct only because "the computer did it
> perfect".
>

Aah yes, the computer is evil for music haha.

>
> > Similarly as classic 5-limit JI didn't work, the older conceptions of
> > extended JI didn't work either. Nobody saw correct solutions to certain
> > problems and JI was deemed impossible.
>
> Two cases I find specially misguided are the use of 4:5:6:7 as dominant
> chord (it may sound very wrong both melodically and harmonically in several
> circumstances), and the use of 5:6:7:9 as a representant of the II degree,
> preceding the dominant (it sounds as bVII which fundamental is a resulting
> tone, cross-related to the 3rd of the dominant chord, that is: something
> totally different from II-V). I don't think any soft timbre can correct
> that.
>

Oh yes 4:5:6:7 isn't JI for common practice music. It sounds absolutely
horrible there.
The whole 7th harmonic I have not found any use for in common practice music
(and have a very good explenation for it which I'll publish later with my
theory)
I personally have no idea where such a chord in use could be apropriately
called "just intonation".

I have found the 7th harmonic in an "arabic like" musical structure I've
found based on the same principles I'm using for common practice music.
It produces a 17 tone chromatic JI scale unlike the 12tone chromatic JI
scale for common practice music.
Only the 7th harmonic in this 17 tone chromatic JI can't ever form a 4:5:6:7
because there is no 4:5 in this scale..
Only place I can so far find the 4:5:6:7 chord is in very large
ultrachromatic scales which I'm not sure have any use musically. Or perhaps
such a chord has a place in a very different musical structure than western
or arabic music, but I wouldn't know what.
So far I'm seeing the 4:5:6:7 chord as simply playing the harmonic series
and not for musical use as we know it.

Marcel

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗hfmlacerda <hfmlacerda@...>

Hi Marcel,

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...> wrote:
> Yes I got that.
> MIDI pitchbend resolution if used to its full is acurate enough as far as
> I'm concerned.

Yes. That is true for microabc+abc2midi.

> And if I understand correctly, the abc2sco will give 1/256 semitone
> resolution as a minimum after optimization by microabc?

Yes.

That would mean the maximum error of 1/512 semitone for a single pitch, or 1/256 for an interval (between two pitches with opposite errors). You can try very slightly different (miliHertz) reference frequencies with "basefreq:" to try minimize the error, whenever it can be significant.

The maximum error occurs for pitches that are too close of the 12-EDO ones. In such cases, there are only two quantisation options: the exact 12-EDO pitch or an offset of 1/256 semitone. For most cases in between two 12-EDO pitches, there are several semitone fractions to compare. Example: for pi/4 (0.78540), some options of ratios would be 4/5 (8/10, 16/20, 24/30 etc.), 11/14 (22/28...) and 172/219 (the last one being the best one in accuracy below den=256).

> 1/256 is slightly course (though on the limit of acceptable to me) and if I
> read correctly the practical resolution will be several time higher which
> sounds great too to me.

The real accuracy of microabc+abc2sco for JI we only will know after you try microabc with real-world JI ratios, and using the option -I (you can capture the stderr output to a file with "2>file" using the shell).

(For equal divisions of the octave, the accuracy of abc2sco is 100%.)

Cheers,
Hudson Lacerda

P.S.: I have got a patch that fixes the microtone bug of tclabc-1.2.0 (in 32-bit machines), but I still did not update abc2sco for use with that version -- use tclabc-1.1.0. Use microabc-2010-08-30, which has the correct verification of quantisation errors when `den:0'. BTW, which is the system you are running?

🔗hfmlacerda <hfmlacerda@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Hudson,
>
> My main criticism is against using MIDI pitch bends and sounds with strong
> > partials for JI, assuming it is correct only because "the computer did it
> > perfect".
> >
>
> Aah yes, the computer is evil for music haha.

In other terms: pitch-oriented music is evil for the computer :-D

[...]
> I personally have no idea where such a chord in use could be apropriately
> called "just intonation".
[...]

Some time ago someone (maybe Carl?) presented us *barbershop quartet* examples, including a piece named "Nora" interpreted by a group that is very nice to hear but that I would not recommend watching...

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗hfmlacerda <hfmlacerda@...>

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

> Some time ago someone (maybe Carl?) presented us *barbershop quartet*
> examples, including a piece named "Nora" interpreted by a group that is very
> nice to hear but that I would not recommend watching...

Yes I remember that one.
But if I remember correctly the piece, then I think I'd like to analyse that
7th as a very specific effect where it's used purely harmonically to extend
the major chord harmonically. (something that will only work under specific
circumstances it seems to me where it doesn't clash or confuse with real
melodies)
I think this 7th is probably not used in a normal musical sense, in other
words it has no harmonic function and is not used melodically.
Using the 7th melodically just doesn't work out in western music it seems to
me, I don't see how that barbeshop quartet could've gotten around that one.
But I'd be interested to give it a listen again, it's been a while back.

Marcel

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

> The real accuracy of microabc+abc2sco for JI we only will know after you
> try microabc with real-world JI ratios, and using the option -I (you can
> capture the stderr output to a file with "2>file" using the shell).
>
> (For equal divisions of the octave, the accuracy of abc2sco is 100%.)
>
> Cheers,
> Hudson Lacerda
>
> P.S.: I have got a patch that fixes the microtone bug of tclabc-1.2.0 (in
> 32-bit machines), but I still did not update abc2sco for use with that
> version -- use tclabc-1.1.0. Use microabc-2010-08-30, which has the correct
> verification of quantisation errors when `den:0'. BTW, which is the system
> you are running?
>

I've installed "active tcl/tk" and tcltools for windows.
Right now I'm installing Cygwin to get the gcc compiler for windows, in
order to compile microabc.
I'm using windows xp32.

Marcel

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

> Yes I remember that one.
> But if I remember correctly the piece, then I think I'd like to analyse
> that 7th as a very specific effect where it's used purely harmonically to
> extend the major chord harmonically. (something that will only work under
> specific circumstances it seems to me where it doesn't clash or confuse with
> real melodies)
> I think this 7th is probably not used in a normal musical sense, in other
> words it has no harmonic function and is not used melodically.
> Using the 7th melodically just doesn't work out in western music it seems
> to me, I don't see how that barbeshop quartet could've gotten around that
> one.
> But I'd be interested to give it a listen again, it's been a while back.
>
> Marcel
>

Hmm I was thinking about this some more..
And it could possibly be even that it's not the 7th harmonic but the 225th
harmonic.
That one does occur as a further division of the western 12tone chromatic
scale into a 24tone chromatic scale. I see a possibility for using this in
actual music melodically and harmonically, and possibility for the ear/brain
to understand this.
That is, if my system is correct :)

So basically, I don't know / can only guess what's happening with some of
the barbershop chords :)
They do indeed sound good to me and not "out of tune" and different
musically from the normal use of 7th chords in common practice music.

Marcel

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

🔗hfmlacerda <hfmlacerda@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...> wrote:
> > I've installed "active tcl/tk" and tcltools for windows.
>
> Uhm sorry I ment abctools for windows, from the abcplus page.
> These and tcl are the only things I need right?
> Then install micrabc and I'm ready to use abc2sco?

The complete list is:

[ ] Tcl/Tk
[ ] abctools (abcm2ps, abc2midi, midi2abc etc.)
[ ] tclabc-1.1.0
[ ] microabc
[ ] abc2sco.tcl
[ ] Csound

Also consider installing:
[ ] Scala
[ ] timidity++
[ ] fluidsynth

I don't know how to execute Tcl command-line scripts on Windows. Perhaps you will need to write a batch file to run abc2sco.

Please tell me if the file ~/.abc2scorc is generated, where it is created, and if abc2sco can find it in a next run. "~/" is the user directory in Unix-like systems, and maybe I should define it in a plataform-independant way for future abc2sco.tcl releases.

Hudson

🔗hfmlacerda <hfmlacerda@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...> wrote:
> I've installed "active tcl/tk" and tcltools for windows.
> Right now I'm installing Cygwin to get the gcc compiler for windows, in
> order to compile microabc.
> I'm using windows xp32.

Good news:

I have made a few more changes in microabc to inspect the quantisation with den:0 (not still released since it is a secondary feature).

For a scale with 145 JI ratios in prime limit 13 (ji.txt in http://hudsonlacerda.webs.com/abc/ratios_example.tgz ), using the default basefreq: (for 1/1 = standard middle C), I have found only 2 pitches with tuning error larger than using MIDI pitch bends:

27/25 (-0.034450 cents)
and
19683/15625 (-0.103350 cents)

Hudson

🔗hfmlacerda <hfmlacerda@...>

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

> Not true, not true. Then again, almost nothing about your "theory"
> is rooted in reality, so who am I to object?
>
> -Carl
>

I'd prefer it if you don't reply to my messages or say things to me directly
and I'll return the favor.
No sense in banning me from the tuning list and then provoke more of the
same here on the MMM list is there..

As for my theory, you don't know shit about it, and you can't even dream of
producing tuning results that come close to mine.
Let me remind you that your version of the beginning of the Drei Equale is
exactly the same as the classic 5-limit example and sounds horrible.
I'm glad you saw yourself that it was best not to continue this way.
And you "adaptive-ji" version of the lasso is best played in torture
chambers or something like that.
Go do your own out of tune things, just stop bothering and insulting me or
I'll start bothering you back worse.

Marcel

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

> [ ] Tcl/Tk
> [ ] abctools (abcm2ps, abc2midi, midi2abc etc.)
> [ ] tclabc-1.1.0
> [ ] microabc
> [ ] abc2sco.tcl
> [ ] Csound
>
> Also consider installing:
> [ ] Scala
> [ ] timidity++
> [ ] fluidsynth
>
> I don't know how to execute Tcl command-line scripts on Windows. Perhaps
> you will need to write a batch file to run abc2sco.
>
> Please tell me if the file ~/.abc2scorc is generated, where it is created,
> and if abc2sco can find it in a next run. "~/" is the user directory in
> Unix-like systems, and maybe I should define it in a plataform-independant
> way for future abc2sco.tcl releases.
>
> Hudson
>

Ohoh.. I mistakenly thought tclabc-1.1.0 was somehow included with abctools.
And I can't find tclabc-1.1.0 binary for windows anywhere. If you know where
to find it please let me know but right now it seems it's not on the ABCplus
page where it should be. (only linux rpm packages)
Infact, I can't even find the source, and can tell that even if I did find
the source that I'd have to build it with Visual C++..
This is kind of turning into an installation nightmare.

Marcel

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗hfmlacerda <hfmlacerda@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...> wrote:
[...]
> Glad our ears agree on this one :)
> And a pretty important agreement I think.
> As it shows that all the rejections of JI, like common practice music
> doesn't work in JI, were based mostly on wrong ideas of what JI is capable
> of.
> Similarly as classic 5-limit JI didn't work, the older conceptions of
> extended JI didn't work either. Nobody saw correct solutions to certain
> problems and JI was deemed impossible.

Hearing again Beethoven_Drei_Equale_No1_(classic-5-limit-JI).mp3 and Beethoven_Drei_Equale_no1_(M-JI_09-08-2010).mp3, I noticed that your M-JI version has more beatings, and the other version has more evident comma shifts.

At ~01:37, M-JI has a strong harmonically wrong resulting tone (it sounds as a chord on VII instead of II), whereas classic-5-limit-JI sounds better for me, since the difference tone is not so evident (even it not belonging to the scale!).

Hudson

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

🔗hfmlacerda <hfmlacerda@...>

🔗prentrodgers <prentrodgers@...>

I'd have to agree with Carl on this one. Here's a piece that uses 7 limit just - on purpose. I like the 7th overtone. 7/4 is a wonderful ratio, as are 12/7, 10/7, 8/7, 7/6, 7/5, 14/9, 9/7, and all the rest. "No harmonic function and is not used melodically" is a rather sweeping statement, don't you think? I call those fighting words, and consider this piece my sword in the battle:

http://bumpermusic.blogspot.com/2010/08/jesus-all-my-gladness-take-9.html and revised here:
http://bumpermusic.blogspot.com/2010/08/jesus-all-my-gladness-take-10_28.html

More description at the blog. It's another in my series of hymns slowed way down and retuned. This one attempts to keep each chord in 7-limit territory. Give it a listen. I think it's musical. Your mileage may vary, but to say that the 7th has no harmonic function is absurd.

Prent Rodgers

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
>
> Marcel wrote:
>
> >I think this 7th is probably not used in a normal musical sense, in other
> >words it has no harmonic function and is not used melodically.
>
> Not true, not true. Then again, almost nothing about your "theory"
> is rooted in reality, so who am I to object?
>
> -Carl
>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

I weigh in with Prent and Carl.

Marcel - have you heard of a genre called.... the blues?

Chris

On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 1:20 PM, prentrodgers <prentrodgers@...>wrote:

>
>
> I'd have to agree with Carl on this one. Here's a piece that uses 7 limit
> just - on purpose. I like the 7th overtone. 7/4 is a wonderful ratio, as are
> 12/7, 10/7, 8/7, 7/6, 7/5, 14/9, 9/7, and all the rest. "No harmonic
> function and is not used melodically" is a rather sweeping statement, don't
> you think? I call those fighting words, and consider this piece my sword in
> the battle:
>
> http://bumpermusic.blogspot.com/2010/08/jesus-all-my-gladness-take-9.htmland revised here:
>
> http://bumpermusic.blogspot.com/2010/08/jesus-all-my-gladness-take-10_28.html
>
> More description at the blog. It's another in my series of hymns slowed way
> down and retuned. This one attempts to keep each chord in 7-limit territory.
> Give it a listen. I think it's musical. Your mileage may vary, but to say
> that the 7th has no harmonic function is absurd.
>
> Prent Rodgers
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com <MakeMicroMusic%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
> >
> > Marcel wrote:
> >
> > >I think this 7th is probably not used in a normal musical sense, in
> other
> > >words it has no harmonic function and is not used melodically.
> >
> > Not true, not true. Then again, almost nothing about your "theory"
> > is rooted in reality, so who am I to object?
> >
> > -Carl
> >
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

Hi Prent,

I'd have to agree with Carl on this one. Here's a piece that uses 7 limit
> just - on purpose. I like the 7th overtone. 7/4 is a wonderful ratio, as are
> 12/7, 10/7, 8/7, 7/6, 7/5, 14/9, 9/7, and all the rest. "No harmonic
> function and is not used melodically" is a rather sweeping statement, don't
> you think?
>
Aside from carl, whom I have personal issues with and not going into that
any further.

The things I said I allready gave 2 more messages right after that, and in
each one I said clearly I really didn't know how to see the 7th harmonic in
the barbershop example, as it did sound good to me.
The things I said were speculations, and i didn't pretend them to be
anything else.
The only thing i said clearly was that the 7th harmonic usually sounds
horrible in common practice music, think dominant 7th etc, and I stand
behind that.

I have developed a system in which common practice music makes a lot of
sense to me tuning wise.
Yet it doesn't give the 7th harmonic as a possibility to make a 4:5:6:7
chords, atleast not untill the JI 48tone per octave scale in my system.
Perhaps this is not that crazy as 24 tone per octave is normal music in many
cultures. Etc.
But anyhow all I wanted to do is agree with Hudson that for dominant 7th the
7th harmonic is horrible, and speculate some as to why and as to how the 7th
harmonic may be reached.

I call those fighting words,
>

My words were absolutely not ment as fighting words.

> and consider this piece my sword in the battle:
>
> http://bumpermusic.blogspot.com/2010/08/jesus-all-my-gladness-take-9.htmland revised here:
>
> http://bumpermusic.blogspot.com/2010/08/jesus-all-my-gladness-take-10_28.html
>
> More description at the blog. It's another in my series of hymns slowed way
> down and retuned. This one attempts to keep each chord in 7-limit territory.
> Give it a listen. I think it's musical. Your mileage may vary, but to say
> that the 7th has no harmonic function is absurd.
>
> Prent Rodgers
>

I don't find the sounds and way of playing make the tuning very clear.
But if I listen closely I can indeed hear the 7th harmonic and it doesn't
sound right to me, sorry.

Marcel

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

🔗hfmlacerda <hfmlacerda@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "prentrodgers" <prentrodgers@...> wrote:
> http://bumpermusic.blogspot.com/2010/08/jesus-all-my-gladness-take-9.html and revised here:
> http://bumpermusic.blogspot.com/2010/08/jesus-all-my-gladness-take-10_28.html
>
> Prent Rodgers

Interestingly, the piece uses both the septimal chords that I have written are often misused: F-Ab-D-C as II-5/6 going to the dominant, and the dominant with 7:4. But I think the slowing-down, the added events, and the minor mode suavise the effect (that is: the piece is not tonal in the usual sense).

Here, F-Ab-D-C sounds with a very audible fundamental Bb (as difference tone, I suppose), that is: as VII (not II-5/6). In the dominant 4:5:6:7, the first thing that would bother me would be the low leading tone; the low 7th in minor mode is not so bad since its resolution (the minor 3rd of tonic) is enough distant melodically.

For the specific goals of the work, 4:5:6:7 sounds consonant in the slow movement that desconstruct Bach's original harmonic discourse. Some passing-chords seems very dissonant in the about static context.

Hudson

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

🔗jonszanto <jszanto@...>

Wow.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...> wrote:
> I think this 7th is probably not used in a normal musical sense, in other
> words it has no harmonic function and is not used melodically.
> Using the 7th melodically just doesn't work out in western music it seems to
> me

So: Marcel has single-handedly written off the entire body of music known as the blues. Maybe "western music" is just a buzz phrase for "music made by and for white people" or something. All other cultures need not apply for any serious consideration, because their music just simply Does Not Count.

Amazing.

The 7th is alive and well, and has been for a long time. I can picture it now: "Sonny Rollings and Marcel de Velde walk into a bar..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S46dhVcYWpY

Cheers,
Jon

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

On Sun, Sep 5, 2010 at 2:08 PM, jonszanto <jszanto@...> wrote:
>
> Wow.
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...> wrote:
> > I think this 7th is probably not used in a normal musical sense, in other
> > words it has no harmonic function and is not used melodically.
> > Using the 7th melodically just doesn't work out in western music it seems to
> > me
>
> So: Marcel has single-handedly written off the entire body of music known as the blues. Maybe "western music" is just a buzz phrase for "music made by and for white people" or something. All other cultures need not apply for any serious consideration, because their music just simply Does Not Count.
>
> Amazing.
>
> The 7th is alive and well, and has been for a long time. I can picture it now: "Sonny Rollings and Marcel de Velde walk into a bar..."
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S46dhVcYWpY
>
> Cheers,
> Jon

Let's not forget http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xQE47HYbeM :)

Although this piece could be said to really take advantage of the fact
that 12 is a dominant temperament, if you really listen to what
they're doing and how they use that b7 to function...

But haha, I wasn't going to say anything, now that you bring it up,
though, as a note to Marcel - I am growing more impressed with your
work every time I hear it. The fact that you are using 16:19:24 and
blending it in with the 4:5:6 at the relative major I think is a great
idea, and the fact that you've recognized that 10:12:15 is less
"rooted" than 16:19:24 is a good insight to make. I think, however,
that at some point you'll figure out how to "use" the 7th harmonic as
well, and the 11th, and so on, to make a type of music perhaps out of
the bounds of common practice music :)

So perhaps it would be wise to skip the proclamations that it can just
never be used, ever, especially when you're on a list full of people
who use it all the time to make music that most of us rather enjoy.

-Mike

🔗jonszanto <jszanto@...>

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

> Wow.
>
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com <MakeMicroMusic%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...> wrote:
> > I think this 7th is probably not used in a normal musical sense, in other
> > words it has no harmonic function and is not used melodically.
> > Using the 7th melodically just doesn't work out in western music it seems
> to
> > me
>
> So: Marcel has single-handedly written off the entire body of music known
> as the blues. Maybe "western music" is just a buzz phrase for "music made by
> and for white people" or something. All other cultures need not apply for
> any serious consideration, because their music just simply Does Not Count.
>
> Amazing.
>
> The 7th is alive and well, and has been for a long time. I can picture it
> now: "Sonny Rollings and Marcel de Velde walk into a bar..."
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S46dhVcYWpY
>
> Cheers,
> Jon

Wow.

So John has the supreme knowlegde on Just Intonation and knows the exact
ratios of all intervals and knows exactly when an interval is the harmonic
7th..

That's so silly since you can't tune even simple common practice music to
correct Just Intonation.
Where do you think you have anywhere near the knowledge required to say
wether the harmonic 7th is in use somewhere??

Besides that. Stop taking my words out of context.
I was merely speculating.
And used everything I said about this seventh in a "I think" context and
said several times that I DON'T KNOW how the 7th is used or functions or
when exactly it does or does not occur.

But at least my speculations were based on something more that yours.
As I do know that you know even far less about this harmonic 7th than I do.
And this is not mere speculation.

Cheers,
Marcel

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗jonszanto <jszanto@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...> wrote:
> And used everything I said about this seventh in a "I think" context and
> said several times that I DON'T KNOW how the 7th is used or functions or
> when exactly it does or does not occur.

And I've just pointed out, as someone else has, that there is an entire body of music, based on Western (and African) roots, that utilizes the 7th constantly, and you've taken no notice of it. Not surprising.

Take a few months off and steep yourself in the blues. You'll gain a powerful understanding of the role of the 7th, and - especially if you listen to the practitioners on the guitar - how much microtonality owes to people who have tried to communicate within the context of 12tet based music by bending the notes to where there ears told them they needed to be.

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

> And I've just pointed out, as someone else has, that there is an entire
> body of music, based on Western (and African) roots, that utilizes the 7th
> constantly, and you've taken no notice of it. Not surprising.
>

Show me any proof that it is the 7th harmonic.
You may think it is but based on what?
Shouldn't you first be able to be sure about how simple common practice
classical is tuned, before you can speculate about such things?

>
> Take a few months off and steep yourself in the blues. You'll gain a
> powerful understanding of the role of the 7th, and - especially if you
> listen to the practitioners on the guitar - how much microtonality owes to
> people who have tried to communicate within the context of 12tet based music
> by bending the notes to where there ears told them they needed to be.
>

I'm not saying it isn't the 7th.
But right now I don't know.

The way I see it is that with a 1/1 5/4 3/2 chord, in common practice music
the minor 7th is allways either 16/9 or 57/32.
How to see the 7th harmonic here I don't know. If one uses 48 tone JI then
there's a 7/4 and a 16/9 at thesame time.
But I see no normal 12tone or close to this division of the octave that has
1/1 5/4 3/2 and 7/4.
But as I allready said, perhaps I'm missing something and perhaps one can
use the whole harmonic series as melodic steps, though this is not what i've
found so far.

Also, besides all the blues use, how come all examples I've heard where the
tuning uses a 7/4 sound all out of tune to me?

So all I wanted to do was speculate some.
And reject the 7th harmonic for the dominant 7th in common practice music as
it clearly doesn't sound good there.

Sorry if I stepped on some toes while doing this, was not ment as such.

Marcel

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Dave Seidel <dave@...>

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

Btw, the youtube video isn't a good example I think.
I don't hear a clear harmonic 7th.
Yes the 7th is played low, but so are most other notes. He's simply playing
lower than the rest of the band.
And not particulary in tune to my ears (though I like it, but not due to any
tuning things)

I think trombone music has a better potential for making a possible 7th
harmonic audible.
(and perhaps choir like the one carl posted a while back, and perhaps violin
quartet also)

Here blues played by trombones:

This one somewhat in tune.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E16Ej8bd3LU

This one less in tune:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAJPrP63Yuk

Both don't give a clear 7th harmonic to me, and are by far not well enough
tuned to analyse and say with any certainty in my opinion.

Marcel

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗jonszanto <jszanto@...>

Marcel,

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...> wrote:
> Also, besides all the blues use, how come all examples I've heard where the
> tuning uses a 7/4 sound all out of tune to me?
>
> So all I wanted to do was speculate some.
> And reject the 7th harmonic for the dominant 7th in common practice music as
> it clearly doesn't sound good there.
>
> Sorry if I stepped on some toes while doing this, was not ment as such.

No worries, and I'll offer this up as well: I may have *completely* misunderstood your stance. I thought all along you were simply referring to the use of the 7th degree, as it falls in a traditional dominant 7th chord. I did not parse that you meant a true 7th harmonic *in place of* the tempered 7th.

My misunderstanding, if that is what it was, led me to believe that you didn't feel the (dominant) 7th could ever play a role, either harmonically or melodically. If that is not what you meant, you have my heartfelt apology.

I'm not a fan of barbershop singing, but what I *have* listened to has many, many occasions of a dominant 7th whereupon the singers *lock* the tuning clearly, making intonational adjustments to place a true 7th. This may be more germane to your speculations, and there are people on this list that could probably point out uses and recordings that would show its use and significance.

Hope that clarifies things.

Best,
Jon

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

🔗jonszanto <jszanto@...>

🔗Carlo <carlo@...>

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

Hi John,

No worries, and I'll offer this up as well: I may have *completely*
> misunderstood your stance. I thought all along you were simply referring to
> the use of the 7th degree, as it falls in a traditional dominant 7th chord.
> I did not parse that you meant a true 7th harmonic *in place of* the
> tempered 7th.
>
> My misunderstanding, if that is what it was, led me to believe that you
> didn't feel the (dominant) 7th could ever play a role, either harmonically
> or melodically. If that is not what you meant, you have my heartfelt
> apology.
>
>
Thanks for clarifying.
I didn't realise you took it as this. Yes I ment the 7th harmonic indeed,
specifically in common practice (like) music like the barbershop singing.
I mis-asumed / wrongly interpreted you mail thinking you were hostile to me
because of my way of talking about JI, I've had too many flames on these
lists I think, sorry from me again too.

> I'm not a fan of barbershop singing, but what I *have* listened to has
> many, many occasions of a dominant 7th whereupon the singers *lock* the
> tuning clearly, making intonational adjustments to place a true 7th. This
> may be more germane to your speculations, and there are people on this list
> that could probably point out uses and recordings that would show its use
> and significance.
>
> Hope that clarifies things.
>
> Best,
> Jon
>

Yes I was speculating about this harmonic 7th in barbershop.
The thing was I remember it as sounding good to me, which is suprising to me
as I've never heard a 7th harmonic sound good / "right" otherwise in the
place of a dominant 7th chord.
And I'm not sure how to place it in my theory.

I've found JI to work like a harmonically divided chain of fifths and
octaves.
45/64 3/4 51/64 27/32 57/64 15/16 repeated 15/16 1/1 17/16 9/8 19/16 5/4
repeated again 5/4 4/3 17/12 3/2 19/12 5/3 again 5/3 16/9 17/9 2/1 19/9 20/9
etc
Also repeated in octave.
Giving in it's most simple form the 12 tone scale of 1/1 17/16 9/8 19/16 5/4
4/3 17/12 3/2 51/32 27/16 57/32 15/8 2/1
Or when divided further: 1/1 33/32 17/16 35/32 9/8 37/32 19/16 39/32 5/4
31/24 4/3 33/24 17/12 35/24 3/2 99/64 51/32 105/64 27/16 111/64 57/32 117/64
15/8 31/16 2/1
Which is a melodic 24-tone scale.
I've found that melody allways follows harmonic steps in this system.
Much much more to tell, one of the things is that the above scale is just
one possible scale for one melody and that not all melodies have to be in
this one scale (one can even get "wolf" octaves under certain circumstances
I've found for instance (btw my beethoven JI was done before this insight
and contains errors as I led some melodies wrong to avoid any possibility of
wolf octaves even theoretically occuring).
But in any case, there's no harmonic 7th possible in this.
There is a harmonic 7th possible in the 24 tone per octave scale (5/4 to
35/16 for instance) but there is never a 1/1 5/4 3/2 7/4 in it.
One has to divide the octave to 48 tones melodically to get a 1/1 5/4 3/2
7/4 possibility, in this division one can also make the melodic step from
7/4 to 5/3.
But I was seeing this as a bit of a far stretch to interpret the 7th
harmonic in barbershop in this way, idunno.
So perhaps one can walk the 15/8 of the 15/8 2/1 17/16 9/8 19/16 5/4
harmonic part further down to 7/4. 15/8 seems to be able to go to 7/4
melodically (it's just not used in common practice music that way usually,
perhaps because it's too far out of tune in 12tet? perhaps the 57/32 or 16/9
are so much more likely that they often overrule the interpretation etc) and
that this way is how it's used in barbershop, however this can melodically
never go to 5/3 then as does the dominant 7th as when it does it would
strongly imply a 16/9 instead of a 7/4, or imply a 48tone division of the
octave.
Ah much more to tell but it's probably hard to follow before I've written
out more about my JI theory as a precursor (working on that though).

Marcel

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[MMM] Beethoven and Lassus in Just Intonation

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