Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup makemicromusic Microtonal notation app: Nihavent

Hello,

I'm happy to announce that the Beta version of Nihavent, a music notation
app for Turkish maqam music and microtonal music, is now available for
download.

Unlike most other notation software, Nihavent lets you tune each staff level
to any arbitrary frequency, adjust how the 10 built-in accidentals modify
the pitch and hear the score played with the correct pitches. This makes it
possible to work with virtually any scale imaginable. While admittedly the
app is missing certain important features at this point, I hope it will
nonetheless be useful as a kind of playground to those working with
microtonal music.

You can download Nihavent for Windows and Mac OS X at:

http://www.nihavent.net/index_en.html

All questions and comments are welcome.

Utku Uzmen

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

Meet Utku, the sharp Turkish maqam-programmer whom I met at Data-soft,
home of Mus2okur. Awfully talented young man who solved a convoluted
Macbook problem with Mus2okur in a matter of an hour and a half that
bothered me for months.

Nihavent looks terrific. The interface is extremely well organized.
You can get writing music in a matter of seconds. No stupid wizards
popping up with stupid questions or directions to annoy and impede the
music-making process. No searching for hidden functions in Allah knows what sub-sub-sub menu. Finale and Sibelius should learn something from
the simplicity and microtonal capabilities of this little ingenius
software.

Cordially,
Dr. Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

On May 26, 2010, at 12:07 AM, Carl Lumma wrote:

> Hello Utku,
>
> I've been playing with this in the minutes since you posted.
> I'm having some trouble getting it to behave as expected, and
> already I have some suggestions. However it is not too soon
> to say it's easily the best microtonal-capable notation editor
> I've ever seen. Extremely promising and EVERYONE on this list
> should download it TODAY.
>
> !!
>
> -Carl
>
> At 12:55 PM 5/25/2010, you wrote:
>
>> You can download Nihavent for Windows and Mac OS X at:
>>
>> http://www.nihavent.net/index_en.html
>>
>> All questions and comments are welcome.
>>
>> Utku Uzmen
>>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

I think you and your countrymen are in the vanguard for 21st century
microtonalism.
Chris

On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 5:52 PM, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@ozanyarman.com>wrote:

>
>
> Meet Utku, the sharp Turkish maqam-programmer whom I met at Data-soft,
> home of Mus2okur. Awfully talented young man who solved a convoluted
> Macbook problem with Mus2okur in a matter of an hour and a half that
> bothered me for months.
>
> Nihavent looks terrific. The interface is extremely well organized.
> You can get writing music in a matter of seconds. No stupid wizards
> popping up with stupid questions or directions to annoy and impede the
> music-making process. No searching for hidden functions in Allah knows
> what sub-sub-sub menu. Finale and Sibelius should learn something from
> the simplicity and microtonal capabilities of this little ingenius
> software.
>
> Cordially,
> Dr. Oz.
>
> ✩ ✩ ✩
> www.ozanyarman.com
>
>
> On May 26, 2010, at 12:07 AM, Carl Lumma wrote:
>
> > Hello Utku,
> >
> > I've been playing with this in the minutes since you posted.
> > I'm having some trouble getting it to behave as expected, and
> > already I have some suggestions. However it is not too soon
> > to say it's easily the best microtonal-capable notation editor
> > I've ever seen. Extremely promising and EVERYONE on this list
> > should download it TODAY.
> >
> > !!
> >
> > -Carl
> >
> > At 12:55 PM 5/25/2010, you wrote:
> >
> >> You can download Nihavent for Windows and Mac OS X at:
> >>
> >> http://www.nihavent.net/index_en.html
> >>
> >> All questions and comments are welcome.
> >>
> >> Utku Uzmen
> >>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

That's an awful nice thing to say Chris, but really! Compared to such
prominent microtonal theorists and xenharmonic musicians as Johnny
Reinhard, Bill Sethares, Neil Haverstick, Paul Erlich, George Secor,
Gene Ward Smith, Herman Miller, Graham Breed, Carlo Serafini, Petr
Parizek, Margo Schulter, and programmers such as Manuel op de Coul,
Aaron Andrew Hunt, Robert Walker, Victor Cerullo, Nasca O. Paul,
Timidity+ coders, etc... Turkiye is still at her "xenharmonic
juvenescence" I think... or is it? :)

Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

On May 26, 2010, at 1:23 AM, Chris Vaisvil wrote:

> I think you and your countrymen are in the vanguard for 21st century
> microtonalism.
> Chris
>
> On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 5:52 PM, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...
> >wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Meet Utku, the sharp Turkish maqam-programmer whom I met at Data-
>> soft,
>> home of Mus2okur. Awfully talented young man who solved a convoluted
>> Macbook problem with Mus2okur in a matter of an hour and a half that
>> bothered me for months.
>>
>> Nihavent looks terrific. The interface is extremely well organized.
>> You can get writing music in a matter of seconds. No stupid wizards
>> popping up with stupid questions or directions to annoy and impede
>> the
>> music-making process. No searching for hidden functions in Allah
>> knows
>> what sub-sub-sub menu. Finale and Sibelius should learn something
>> from
>> the simplicity and microtonal capabilities of this little ingenius
>> software.
>>
>> Cordially,
>> Dr. Oz.
>>
>> ✩ ✩ ✩
>> www.ozanyarman.com
>>
>>
>> On May 26, 2010, at 12:07 AM, Carl Lumma wrote:
>>
>>> Hello Utku,
>>>
>>> I've been playing with this in the minutes since you posted.
>>> I'm having some trouble getting it to behave as expected, and
>>> already I have some suggestions. However it is not too soon
>>> to say it's easily the best microtonal-capable notation editor
>>> I've ever seen. Extremely promising and EVERYONE on this list
>>> should download it TODAY.
>>>
>>> !!
>>>
>>> -Carl
>>>
>>> At 12:55 PM 5/25/2010, you wrote:
>>>
>>>> You can download Nihavent for Windows and Mac OS X at:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.nihavent.net/index_en.html
>>>>
>>>> All questions and comments are welcome.
>>>>
>>>> Utku Uzmen
>>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

Isn't microtonalism a cultural norm for Turkey and many (most, all?) Asian
countries (Thinking India for example)? (And a lot of other places in the
world - just not Western Classical / popular Tradition until of late).

Musically all of these cultures have so much to teach their colleges in the
West.

I'm not knocking the western pioneers - I'm just saying thousands of years
of experience is a lot of knowledge.

Chris

On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 7:25 PM, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>wrote:

>
>
> That's an awful nice thing to say Chris, but really! Compared to such
> prominent microtonal theorists and xenharmonic musicians as Johnny
> Reinhard, Bill Sethares, Neil Haverstick, Paul Erlich, George Secor,
> Gene Ward Smith, Herman Miller, Graham Breed, Carlo Serafini, Petr
> Parizek, Margo Schulter, and programmers such as Manuel op de Coul,
> Aaron Andrew Hunt, Robert Walker, Victor Cerullo, Nasca O. Paul,
> Timidity+ coders, etc... Turkiye is still at her "xenharmonic
> juvenescence" I think... or is it? :)
>
> Oz.
>
> ✩ ✩ ✩
> www.ozanyarman.com
>
>
> On May 26, 2010, at 1:23 AM, Chris Vaisvil wrote:
>
> > I think you and your countrymen are in the vanguard for 21st century
> > microtonalism.
> > Chris
> >
> > On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 5:52 PM, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...<ozanyarman%40ozanyarman.com>
> > >wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Meet Utku, the sharp Turkish maqam-programmer whom I met at Data-
> >> soft,
> >> home of Mus2okur. Awfully talented young man who solved a convoluted
> >> Macbook problem with Mus2okur in a matter of an hour and a half that
> >> bothered me for months.
> >>
> >> Nihavent looks terrific. The interface is extremely well organized.
> >> You can get writing music in a matter of seconds. No stupid wizards
> >> popping up with stupid questions or directions to annoy and impede
> >> the
> >> music-making process. No searching for hidden functions in Allah
> >> knows
> >> what sub-sub-sub menu. Finale and Sibelius should learn something
> >> from
> >> the simplicity and microtonal capabilities of this little ingenius
> >> software.
> >>
> >> Cordially,
> >> Dr. Oz.
> >>
> >> ✩ ✩ ✩
> >> www.ozanyarman.com
> >>
> >>
> >> On May 26, 2010, at 12:07 AM, Carl Lumma wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hello Utku,
> >>>
> >>> I've been playing with this in the minutes since you posted.
> >>> I'm having some trouble getting it to behave as expected, and
> >>> already I have some suggestions. However it is not too soon
> >>> to say it's easily the best microtonal-capable notation editor
> >>> I've ever seen. Extremely promising and EVERYONE on this list
> >>> should download it TODAY.
> >>>
> >>> !!
> >>>
> >>> -Carl
> >>>
> >>> At 12:55 PM 5/25/2010, you wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> You can download Nihavent for Windows and Mac OS X at:
> >>>>
> >>>> http://www.nihavent.net/index_en.html
> >>>>
> >>>> All questions and comments are welcome.
> >>>>
> >>>> Utku Uzmen
> >>>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

"Microtonalism" from a Western perspective, yes... From the standpoint
of Easterners, it is rather 12-tone equal temperament that is
"microtonal". :)

And it is true that there are hundreds, if not thousands, of years oftheoretical formulations behind certain practices today.

Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

On May 26, 2010, at 3:18 AM, Chris Vaisvil wrote:

> Isn't microtonalism a cultural norm for Turkey and many (most, all?)
> Asian
> countries (Thinking India for example)? (And a lot of other places
> in the
> world - just not Western Classical / popular Tradition until of late).
>
> Musically all of these cultures have so much to teach their colleges
> in the
> West.
>
> I'm not knocking the western pioneers - I'm just saying thousands of
> years
> of experience is a lot of knowledge.
>
> Chris
>
> On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 7:25 PM, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...
> >wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> That's an awful nice thing to say Chris, but really! Compared to such
>> prominent microtonal theorists and xenharmonic musicians as Johnny
>> Reinhard, Bill Sethares, Neil Haverstick, Paul Erlich, George Secor,
>> Gene Ward Smith, Herman Miller, Graham Breed, Carlo Serafini, Petr
>> Parizek, Margo Schulter, and programmers such as Manuel op de Coul,
>> Aaron Andrew Hunt, Robert Walker, Victor Cerullo, Nasca O. Paul,
>> Timidity+ coders, etc... Turkiye is still at her "xenharmonic
>> juvenescence" I think... or is it? :)
>>
>> Oz.
>>
>> ✩ ✩ ✩
>> www.ozanyarman.com
>>
>>
>> On May 26, 2010, at 1:23 AM, Chris Vaisvil wrote:
>>
>>> I think you and your countrymen are in the vanguard for 21st century
>>> microtonalism.
>>> Chris
>>>
>>> On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 5:52 PM, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...
>>> <ozanyarman%40ozanyarman.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Meet Utku, the sharp Turkish maqam-programmer whom I met at Data-
>>>> soft,
>>>> home of Mus2okur. Awfully talented young man who solved a
>>>> convoluted
>>>> Macbook problem with Mus2okur in a matter of an hour and a half
>>>> that
>>>> bothered me for months.
>>>>
>>>> Nihavent looks terrific. The interface is extremely well organized.
>>>> You can get writing music in a matter of seconds. No stupid wizards
>>>> popping up with stupid questions or directions to annoy and impede
>>>> the
>>>> music-making process. No searching for hidden functions in Allah
>>>> knows
>>>> what sub-sub-sub menu. Finale and Sibelius should learn something
>>>> from
>>>> the simplicity and microtonal capabilities of this little ingenius
>>>> software.
>>>>
>>>> Cordially,
>>>> Dr. Oz.
>>>>
>>>> ✩ ✩ ✩
>>>> www.ozanyarman.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On May 26, 2010, at 12:07 AM, Carl Lumma wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hello Utku,
>>>>>
>>>>> I've been playing with this in the minutes since you posted.
>>>>> I'm having some trouble getting it to behave as expected, and
>>>>> already I have some suggestions. However it is not too soon
>>>>> to say it's easily the best microtonal-capable notation editor
>>>>> I've ever seen. Extremely promising and EVERYONE on this list
>>>>> should download it TODAY.
>>>>>
>>>>> !!
>>>>>
>>>>> -Carl
>>>>>
>>>>> At 12:55 PM 5/25/2010, you wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> You can download Nihavent for Windows and Mac OS X at:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.nihavent.net/index_en.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All questions and comments are welcome.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Utku Uzmen
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

> Isn't microtonalism a cultural norm for Turkey and many (most, all?)
> Asian countries (Thinking India for example)? (And a lot of other places
> in the world - just not Western Classical / popular Tradition until of late).

Yes, but, so far as I know, only for melody and not much at all for harmony. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure
A) Many Asian nations use pentatonic scales which are subsets of 12TET (only bending "out of key" every now and then for only short intervals) and K-pop, J-pop, etc. ...are most often simply in 12TET.

B) Indian classical music does use micro-tonal melodies, but 12TET chords such as A-minor for the backing and/or a drone which never changes in pitch and acts to "mask" the dissonance between any chords formed by droning notes from melodies. Meanwhile Indian pop music IE Bhangra gravitates toward completely unmodified 12TET.

C) Arab music, again, appears to use 24TET IE micro-tonal melodies, but over 12TET backing chords. In a similar sense I never thought Turkish "Maqam" music ever had many chords either...hence I have always thought Ozan's scales were unique by virtue of making Maqam-like scales which allow lots of chords that didn't sound un-confident AKA "un-controllably dissonant".

For example the page http://www.maqamworld.com/maqamat.html says
"Arabic music is mostly melodic, which means it rarely includes harmony and chords. There are a few exceptions, read more in this excellent article about Harmony and Arabic Music. The main reason why harmony is rarely used is that chords don't sound very pleasant when they include quarter tones or microtonal variations. "

The only genre where I see micro-tonal harmony come up a whole lot is in neo-classical which, sadly, does not seem to catch on much in audience beyond academics.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Utku Uzmen <utku@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

>Thanks for all the kind words. I appreciate everyone taking the time to give
>Nihavent a try.
>
>Carl: Did you have trouble with the Tuning window? I realize it could be
>made a bit clearer. I haven't had the chance to write detailed help
>documentation yet so please don't hesitate to ask for explanations either on
>the list or privately.

Hi Utku,

I was able to create a tuning, though because the list of tunings
is alphabetized I created three before I saw them.

The ability to map a scale that has more or fewer than seven tones
directly to the lines and spaces of the staff is something I've
wanted for a long time. However, though I was able to define such
a tuning I was unable to get the playback to match. Do tunings
only affect notes entered on the score after they are set? Probably
I am just missing the method for assigning one of the tunings to
the current score.

It looks like I can enter ratios to create a scale, but this feature
is more like a handy calculator -- the rationals are not stored
with the scale, so later I see only the frequency offset. I would
strongly recommend the scale be retained as entered (ratios, cents,
etc). I would also suggest adding Scala .scl import.

As others have said, Nihavent's design is beautifully clean and it
runs wonderfully fast. It has *tremendous* potential, and not only
for microtonalists.

-Carl

🔗l99th <utku@...>

Hi Carl,

Once you set up a tuning in the score, you need to assign it to a bar as a key signature (Key & Rhythm > Key Signature), even if it has no key signature to show.

I should also point out that every staff maintains its own tuning separately, so even if you have, say, a treble and a bass staff in the same group for piano, you need to assign the tuning to each staff. If you later change any parts of a tuning you assigned to a bar, the score will be updated automatically.

Scales are internally stored as absolute frequency values. Changing this means changing some core structures, but if more people feel the same way about it, reworking this is possible.

Scala import/export (as well as MIDI export) is on the to-do list.

Utku Uzmen

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
>
> >Thanks for all the kind words. I appreciate everyone taking the time to give
> >Nihavent a try.
> >
> >Carl: Did you have trouble with the Tuning window? I realize it could be
> >made a bit clearer. I haven't had the chance to write detailed help
> >documentation yet so please don't hesitate to ask for explanations either on
> >the list or privately.
>
> Hi Utku,
>
> I was able to create a tuning, though because the list of tunings
> is alphabetized I created three before I saw them.
>
> The ability to map a scale that has more or fewer than seven tones
> directly to the lines and spaces of the staff is something I've
> wanted for a long time. However, though I was able to define such
> a tuning I was unable to get the playback to match. Do tunings
> only affect notes entered on the score after they are set? Probably
> I am just missing the method for assigning one of the tunings to
> the current score.
>
> It looks like I can enter ratios to create a scale, but this feature
> is more like a handy calculator -- the rationals are not stored
> with the scale, so later I see only the frequency offset. I would
> strongly recommend the scale be retained as entered (ratios, cents,
> etc). I would also suggest adding Scala .scl import.
>
> As others have said, Nihavent's design is beautifully clean and it
> runs wonderfully fast. It has *tremendous* potential, and not only
> for microtonalists.
>
> -Carl
>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

Hi Utku,

>Once you set up a tuning in the score, you need to assign it to a bar
>as a key signature (Key & Rhythm > Key Signature), even if it has no
>key signature to show.

Aha. It's working!! However, this brings up my next criticism,
which is that objects on the score are not inspectable. For instance,
I assigned the key signature (my tuning had none). Obviously I won't
see it on the score. But if I try to assign it again to that bar I
expected to see what it was. But the dialog came up with the 12-ET
tuning highlighted again.

Other suggestions:

* If I click on a note on the score (perhaps with the right mouse
button) it would be nice to be able to hear that note (alone).

* If I am adding, say, a quarter note, my cursor might transform
into a quarter note glyph when hovering over the score. This makes
it easier to position on the staff.

* When a note is placed, it is nice to have it play. When dealing
with (possibly original) microtunings, one's ears need frequent
reminders.

* With the voice selector toolbar (numerals 1-4), it would be nice
to gray out notes belonging to voices other than the one selected --
again, letting me inspect the state of the score. Also, it would be
nice to have ctrl+select for those numerals, to be able to work on
multiple voices at once.

In the commercial package Encore, notes belonging to unselected
voices are grayed out and also uneditable. This makes it easier to
edit the voice you're working on, especially in dense sections
of music.

>I should also point out that every staff maintains its own tuning
>separately, so even if you have, say, a treble and a bass staff in the
>same group for piano, you need to assign the tuning to each staff. If
>you later change any parts of a tuning you assigned to a bar, the
>score will be updated automatically.

Great design.

>Scales are internally stored as absolute frequency values. Changing
>this means changing some core structures, but if more people feel the
>same way about it, reworking this is possible.

All notes should have something like an absolute frequency that the
system can use to play them. Just add metadata for a rational and
cents offset, so whatever form the user specified can be shown back
to him -- this is invaluable. On the making micro tools list, the
consensus was, our imaginary score editor would behave this way.

>Scala import/export (as well as MIDI export) is on the to-do list.

MIDI export will be harder. A scala .scl file is just a text file
that would automate work on the Pitch tab of the Tuning dialog.

Speaking of which, it looks like tunings are stored with scores.
That certainly has advantages, for users sharing scores. But it
also makes things much more difficult in other ways.

It looks like all scores get created with 4 or 5 default scales.
What is desired is a way to add to these on my machine -- a library
of scales that will be universal on my system, and then a way to
attach scales from that library to particular scores. A classic
two-pane view is one way to do this

| | > | |
| library | | this score |
| | < | |

(if you are viewing with a constant-width font you should see this
diagram). Anyway, let me know when to shut up. :)

-Carl

🔗Utku Uzmen <utku@...>

Those are all good points. Not being able to see the tuning assigned to a bar should be fixed in 0.2.

On tuning libraries: It is correct that each score has its own tuning list. But in the Tuning window, you should be able to export the selected tuning to a standalone tuning file (.ntu), and import tunings from standalone tuning files and scores. If you import from a score, it will bring in all the tunings defined in that score. So it should be possible to have a "tuning library" folder that you refer to whenever creating a score. If you want to keep a bunch of tunings together, you could also store them in an empty score file for easy importing. I plan to bundle tuning files for Turkish maqams as well as various other scales in the Nihavent package as a sort of starter library.

Utku Uzmen

From: Carl Lumma
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 1:03 AM
To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MMM] Microtonal notation app: Nihavent

Hi Utku,

>Once you set up a tuning in the score, you need to assign it to a bar
>as a key signature (Key & Rhythm > Key Signature), even if it has no
>key signature to show.

Other suggestions:

* If I click on a note on the score (perhaps with the right mouse
button) it would be nice to be able to hear that note (alone).

* If I am adding, say, a quarter note, my cursor might transform
into a quarter note glyph when hovering over the score. This makes
it easier to position on the staff.

* When a note is placed, it is nice to have it play. When dealing
with (possibly original) microtunings, one's ears need frequent
reminders.

Great design.

>Scales are internally stored as absolute frequency values. Changing
>this means changing some core structures, but if more people feel the
>same way about it, reworking this is possible.

>Scala import/export (as well as MIDI export) is on the to-do list.

MIDI export will be harder. A scala .scl file is just a text file
that would automate work on the Pitch tab of the Tuning dialog.

Speaking of which, it looks like tunings are stored with scores.
That certainly has advantages, for users sharing scores. But it
also makes things much more difficult in other ways.

| | > | |
| library | | this score |
| | < | |

(if you are viewing with a constant-width font you should see this
diagram). Anyway, let me know when to shut up. :)

-Carl

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]