Birds use which intonations?

I saw a tv programme some time ago inwhich a composer slowed down 2 or 3 minutes of skylark song and worked out on a piano what the notes were, giving a few hours of music that it was almost impossible for human musicians to play. I think the human composer was using 12 edo (with stretched octaves since it was on piano), but I find it very difficult to believe that birds sing in 12 edo. Some birds sound very complicated to me, whereas others sound very simple. What intonations or temperaments do birds use? Do different species of birds use different intonations? Do birds learn different intonations depending on what they grew up listening to? If birds do not confine themselves to intonations, and instead wander in pitch in more unpredictable ways, are there some harmonic intervals that crop up more often than others? Does human music originating in a particular area use intonations that are influenced by the song of the birds that sing in that area?

What about other singing animals, such as whales and dolphins?

Mark>"I think the human composer was using 12 edo (with stretched octaves
since it was on piano), but I find it very difficult to believe that
birds sing in 12 edo"

I'll say one thing...I agree it seems pretty obvious birds don't follow 12TET.

>"If birds do not confine themselves to intonations, and instead wander
in pitch in more unpredictable ways, are there some harmonic intervals
that crop up more often than others?"
Good question...as some birds, like crows, seem to have vibrato layered over portamento causing such fluctuations in pitch it becomes hard to tell what the root tone is.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

According to this some birds do approximate 12 tet

http://www2.arnes.si/~ljprirodm3/okvir.html

"Surprizing are also songs of many tropical birds, some of them are singing
in major or minor scales up (a) or down (b) like *Myiophoneus caeruleus *(a
- see below!) "

On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 2:38 PM, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:

>
>
> Mark>"I think the human composer was using 12 edo (with stretched octaves
> since it was on piano), but I find it very difficult to believe that
> birds sing in 12 edo"
>
> I'll say one thing...I agree it seems pretty obvious birds don't follow
> 12TET.
>
> >"If birds do not confine themselves to intonations, and instead wander
> in pitch in more unpredictable ways, are there some harmonic intervals
> that crop up more often than others?"
> Good question...as some birds, like crows, seem to have vibrato layered
> over portamento causing such fluctuations in pitch it becomes hard to tell
> what the root tone is.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

and I have software to convert a monophonic line to a named graph  of pitches.

point me or give me bird song and I'll give you a pitch labeled jpg of the song.

On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 2:50 PM, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@gmail.com> wrote:

According to this some birds do approximate 12 tet

http://www2.arnes.si/~ljprirodm3/okvir.html

"Surprizing are also songs of many tropical birds, some of them are
singing in major or minor scales up (a) or down (b) like Myiophoneus
caeruleus (a - see below!) "

On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 2:38 PM, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:

Mark>"I think the human composer was using 12 edo (with stretched octaves
since it was on piano), but I find it very difficult to believe that
birds sing in 12 edo"

I'll say one thing...I agree it seems pretty obvious birds don't follow 12TET.

http://www2.arnes.si/~ljprirodm3/okvir.html

Chris>""Surprizing are also songs of many tropical birds, some of them are singing
in major or minor scales up (a) or down (b) like *Myiophoneus caeruleus *(a
- see below!) "
Meaning an exact major scale or just notes not too far from one?
Also if you look at
http://www2.arnes.si/~ljprirodm3/lestvica.gif
Notice the lower graph includes
"D C# C B"
...and obviously all of those notes can't be within the same key...at least in 12TET diatonic
In the top graph I see
F G# B C# D# F...but that looks like "just" a pentatonic scale where the diatonic key could be different (or even not inside 12TET) depending on "what the other 2 notes are".

One thing a find hilarious is
"One of the most complicated and phantastically coordinated sound
emission which I heard and recorded in the National Park of Taleban
(Thailand) was the singing of two gibons in
polyphony. Lets hear a short sequence of such glissando shown also in the graph below."
...because it sound exactly like the sort of ooooooooooowah! oooooooowah! people do at parties when they think something is really cool (only they really just want to be Gibbons) :-D

Michael,

In any case, the bird is really close to following 12 tet and a major scale
to boot.

Obviously that is not expected. And... could explain the tuning system of
aboriginal, i.e. first people's flutes depending on location.

And may I point out - a "key" can be whatever you make it if you look past
common practice. There are some folk songs that DO use consecutive half
steps and other "un-conventional" scales in 12 tet.

This article makes me want to take a large survey of bird song. Has another
good tuning system(s) been selected by birds?
It would be mind blowing to find Gamma or Bohlen Pierce approximations in
bird song.

I think the remarkable thing about the Gibbons is the polyphonic
co-ordination.
(The gulf between people and animals seemingly grows smaller every day.
Perhaps in the far future politicians will catch up as well.)

Chris

On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 3:08 PM, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:

>
>
> http://www2.arnes.si/~ljprirodm3/okvir.html<http://www2.arnes.si/%7Eljprirodm3/okvir.html>
>
> Chris>""Surprizing are also songs of many tropical birds, some of them are
> singing
>
> in major or minor scales up (a) or down (b) like *Myiophoneus caeruleus *(a
> - see below!) "
> Meaning an exact major scale or just notes not too far from one?
> Also if you look at
> http://www2.arnes.si/~ljprirodm3/lestvica.gif<http://www2.arnes.si/%7Eljprirodm3/lestvica.gif>
> Notice the lower graph includes
> "D C# C B"
> ...and obviously all of those notes can't be within the same key...at least
> in 12TET diatonic
> In the top graph I see
> F G# B C# D# F...but that looks like "just" a pentatonic scale where the
> diatonic key could be different (or even not inside 12TET) depending on
> "what the other 2 notes are".
>
> One thing a find hilarious is
> "One of the most complicated and phantastically coordinated sound
> emission which I heard and recorded in the National Park of Taleban
> (Thailand) was the singing of two gibons in
> polyphony. Lets hear a short sequence of such glissando shown also in the
> graph below."
> ...because it sound exactly like the sort of ooooooooooowah! oooooooowah!
> people do at parties when they think something is really cool (only they
> really just want to be Gibbons) :-D
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Mark,

This speaks more to 12-tet's efficacy as a tuning system in
approximating 5-limit ratios. You could probably take what birds are
singing and come up with a 31-tet or a 53-tet or a 72-tet
approximation as well that's a bit more accurate.

I would imagine that birds don't confine themselves to a precise
tuning but use the whole spectral continuum in intuitive ways. So they
might use JI for particular ratios, try to hit notes right between
different JI intervals to get a different effect (like neutral thirds,
for example), and make use of slides, portamento, etc.

Of course, I have no idea what the hell birds are thinking, so this is
just conjecture. I also have no idea what "effect" they're going for,
because I'm not a bird.

-Mike

On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 2:21 PM, markallanbarnes
<mark.barnes3@...m> wrote:
>
> I saw a tv programme some time ago inwhich a composer slowed down 2 or 3 minutes of skylark song and worked out on a piano what the notes were, giving a few hours of music that it was almost impossible for human musicians to play. I think the human composer was using 12 edo (with stretched octaves since it was on piano), but I find it very difficult to believe that birds sing in 12 edo. Some birds sound very complicated to me, whereas others sound very simple. What intonations or temperaments do birds use? Do different species of birds use different intonations? Do birds learn different intonations depending on what they grew up listening to? If birds do not confine themselves to intonations, and instead wander in pitch in more unpredictable ways, are there some harmonic intervals that crop up more often than others? Does human music originating in a particular area use intonations that are influenced by the song of the birds that sing in that area?
>
> What about other singing animals, such as whales and dolphins?
>
>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
>
> and I have software to convert a monophonic line to a named graph  of pitches.
>
> point me or give me bird song and I'll give you a pitch labeled jpg of the song.
>

Mark:
Here's a link to birds that live in or visit the United Kingdom:

http://www.rspb.org.uk/wildlife/birdguide/name/a/

Click on the letter the bird's name begins with, find the bird on the list. Click on the bird's name. Find the "Listen" function on the page for that bird (just below bird name). Click on play or hover cursor over play and select "download this clip". This is not perfect because some of the clips are actually more than one bird singing at once (for example the sparrow clip) and others do not last long, meaning that it is hard to tell if the snippet of song is typical of that bird's song, or if the bird just happened to be singing in that style at that time. I will be very interested in the results.

Mark,
this sounds perfect - with the exception that I seem to be unable to
download any of the bird song.

I tried with firefox and internet explorer. Perhaps the specific bird is a
problem?

I tried 3 birds, including Canadian Goose and stock dove and was unable to
download the sound.

Could you take a shot at downloading a couple - or more - and email them
direct to me?

Thanks,

Chris

On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 1:40 PM, markallanbarnes
<mark.barnes3@...>wrote:

>
>
>
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com <MakeMicroMusic%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
> >
> > and I have software to convert a monophonic line to a named graph of
> pitches.
> >
> > point me or give me bird song and I'll give you a pitch labeled jpg of
> the song.
> >
>
> Mark:
> Here's a link to birds that live in or visit the United Kingdom:
>
> http://www.rspb.org.uk/wildlife/birdguide/name/a/
>
> Click on the letter the bird's name begins with, find the bird on the list.
> Click on the bird's name. Find the "Listen" function on the page for that
> bird (just below bird name). Click on play or hover cursor over play and
> select "download this clip". This is not perfect because some of the clips
> are actually more than one bird singing at once (for example the sparrow
> clip) and others do not last long, meaning that it is hard to tell if the
> snippet of song is typical of that bird's song, or if the bird just happened
> to be singing in that style at that time. I will be very interested in the
> results.
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
>
> Mark,
> this sounds perfect - with the exception that I seem to be unable to
> download any of the bird song.
>
> I tried with firefox and internet explorer. Perhaps the specific bird is a
> problem?
>
> I tried 3 birds, including Canadian Goose and stock dove and was unable to
> download the sound.
>
> Could you take a shot at downloading a couple - or more - and email them
> direct to me?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chris
>

Mark: I've sent you a few in both wav and mp3 form. I have been unable to access bird downloads today, but fortunately I had some stored from a while ago. Sometimes the download facility seemed to work, but I couldn't find the wav files in my documents to send you. Other times the download option never appeared on the screen. I think it's a temporary fault on the website and I am hoping it will soon be fixed.
Please tell me whether you manage to receive the files I have sent. Would you prefer wav files or mp3s? When you were on the rspb website, did it allow you to listen to the birds? At the moment I can listen but not download. I could use goldwave or another programme to record the song from the website without using their download facility. Also, tell me if there are particular birds you want me to send you the sounds of. I've just tested the goldwave option and it worked fine.

Hi Mark,

I've received the files. I can use either wav or mp3 so it makes no
difference except mp3's are more compact - so I suggest mp3.
I will get to this tonight. It is really easy to do and I will as soon as I
get my work out of the way.

As far as which birds - I guess we should look at songs that sound
interesting or have some tuning or scale potential. Since this is easy to do
I can commit to looking at a couple dozen bird songs without much trouble.

Chris

On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 1:29 PM, Mark <mark.barnes3@ntlworld.com> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com <MakeMicroMusic%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
> >
> > Mark,
> > this sounds perfect - with the exception that I seem to be unable to
> > download any of the bird song.
> >
> > I tried with firefox and internet explorer. Perhaps the specific bird is
> a
> > problem?
> >
> > I tried 3 birds, including Canadian Goose and stock dove and was unable
> to
> > download the sound.
> >
> > Could you take a shot at downloading a couple - or more - and email them
> > direct to me?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Chris
> >
>
> Mark: I've sent you a few in both wav and mp3 form. I have been unable to
> access bird downloads today, but fortunately I had some stored from a while
> ago. Sometimes the download facility seemed to work, but I couldn't find the
> wav files in my documents to send you. Other times the download option never
> appeared on the screen. I think it's a temporary fault on the website and I
> am hoping it will soon be fixed.
> Please tell me whether you manage to receive the files I have sent. Would
> you prefer wav files or mp3s? When you were on the rspb website, did it
> allow you to listen to the birds? At the moment I can listen but not
> download. I could use goldwave or another programme to record the song from
> the website without using their download facility. Also, tell me if there
> are particular birds you want me to send you the sounds of. I've just tested
> the goldwave option and it worked fine.
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Mark (and everyone else),

I've worked with the 4 bird song samples you sent and analyzed the
pitch information with Roland's V-Vocal. Only the blackbird responds
well in this collection of 4 birds - very fast modulation or extremely
high pitches over power what v-vocal can do.

Nonetheless here are the results - the Y axis is pitch in 12 edo pitch
class / octave format - the X axis is time.

Blackbird

http://notonlymusic.com/board/download/file.php?id=231&mode=view

Chaff Finch

http://notonlymusic.com/board/download/file.php?id=232&mode=view

Chiff Chaff

http://notonlymusic.com/board/download/file.php?id=234&mode=view

Skylark

http://notonlymusic.com/board/download/file.php?id=236&mode=view

I did try slowing down and pitch shifting the skylark sample but was
not confident in the result. Probably trying to filter out the
modulating frequency is a better route to go. I may try that.

If anyone else has a bird song they would like to see please pass
along the sample to my email.

Chris

Thank you very much for that, Chris.
I think that the blackbird's song doesn't look like 12 edo on the graph to me, though I'm not sure what it does look like.

Well, yes. I really didn't have any expectation it would be.

I thought these were just random bird songs - if one runs into one
that is interesting this can be done again.

Chris

On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 5:32 PM, Mark <mark.barnes3@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Thank you very much for that, Chris.
> I think that the blackbird's song doesn't look like 12 edo on the graph to me, though I'm not sure what it does look like.
>