Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup makemicromusic Omega Dub

...about Tony Dubshot's music
Very minimalistic (at least to my ears) and with simple and pure melodies and crystal clear production.
Skilled work, for sure, though I guess what gets to me (although I realize others may enjoy it) is the whole sound is so laid back and without much sense of frantic drive and tonal/large-chord explosiveness to it (unlike, say, Marcus Satellite's music, which I'm a huge fan of).

To me more maximalistic micro-tonal music forces people to use the advanced chords of micro-tonal scales while more minimalistic allows musicians to make songs sound/feel more like 12TET with micro-tones only acting as decorations (yet, to many people I'm sure, that approach makes things sound more normal and accessible).

Carl>"It's already half way there with the synth work."
>"Fans are used to listening to _sounds_."
Indeed very odd timbres are already commonplace in electronica...when you program, say, a subtractive analog synthesizer it in no way aligns your sounds to harmonic overtones and many very talented electronica groups IE Way Out West even admit in interviews to things like using off-key chord samples and tuning them in such a way to minimize average dissonance...so, in a way, they are already practicing micro-tonality. Which all the "fairly non-harmonic" timbres floating around, I don't see why "odd scales" should be that much of a surprise.

>"you don't need to worry about wolf intervals and such. Likewise with minimalism, ambient / deep listening, etc."
I think a lot of this has to do with the "fluffy" nature of things like pads in electronica. The timbre of pads is constantly moving and this acts in a way so as to "abstractify" and muffle lack of periodicity.

-Michael

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

>"The label is restrictive but not unreasonably so. It's focussed on microtonal popular music"
I guess one question I have is...does music have to be so minimalist to be considered "popular micro-tonal"...or are there any artists from the label who focus a lot on chords larger than triads and the occasional 4-tone chord?

While it's certainly a step forward....
...call me a harsh critic, but anything that insists on small-chord-based music isn't quite exploring micro-tonality in it's true poly-phonic glory/capacity (if that's indirectly what the label insists on doing).

This is since there are so many ways using that technique to make the music sound semi-monophonic (ALA 22-tone Indian music with things like an occasional a-minor chord in the background). Then again, I wouldn't say 9TET or even 7TET (mentioned on Tony Dubshot's page) are really the most realistic tunings to start writing anything both fully polyphonic and easy to listen to in): the temptation to get around the "unpopular" levels of dissonance by making smaller or less chords is too great. To me if someone's playing around only with small TET scales, they aren't getting a fair palette of colors to paint with.
I would really like to see what someone like Tony could do if you handed him, say, Erv Wilson's 6-tone MOS scales, Ozan's "polyphonic Maqam" scales, BP (telling him to also use only instruments like flutes with lots of odd harmonics to match it, of course), or (dare I go promo here) my Ptolemic-ratio-based scales (all built for polyphony and all very different from 12TET).

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗sevishmusic <sevish@...>

Michael> "I guess one question I have is...does music have to be so minimalist to be considered "popular micro-tonal"...or are there any artists from the label who focus a lot on chords larger than triads and the occasional 4-tone chord?"

Of course it doesn't have to be so minimalist. In these early days it's just me and Tony on the label, and you should know better from all our conversations that first and foremost I'm making music for my own enjoyment (to please my own ear), not to hit targets such as "use more than 4 tones in a chord." Tony would probably agree with this regarding his own music. Personally I think too much complex harmony would spoil the dub - it's more about effects, capturing a hazy mood, being balanced and flowing rather than deep harmonic exploration. No microtonal ideology here, just a style of music.

Michael> "anything that insists on small-chord-based music isn't quite exploring micro-tonality in it's true poly-phonic glory/capacity (if that's indirectly what the label insists on doing)."

It's (thankfully) not what I insist on at all... Wasn't Whitey xenharmonic enough for ya? That's why I'm glad you wrote a tune for the comp mate. :) The harmony on it is really dense, with loads going on.

Carl> "He's obviously really good at weaving this stuff together.

I've always thought electronica was an ideal first use case for microtonality. It's already half way there with the synth work. Fans are used to listening to _sounds_. And the musical structures are forgiving -- you don't need to worry about wolf intervals and such. Likewise with minimalism, ambient / deep listening, etc."

Definitely Carl! The other thing I notice is, the slower the music, the more the wolves make it sound bad. If we take your average new electronic track, it's fast enough to gloss straight over them. Actually you can exploit it, and use wilder, dissonant intervals.

Of course there's more to it than making the music faster, it's just a tendency I observe when I'm playing and composing myself. :)

Michael> "To me more maximalistic micro-tonal music forces people to use the advanced chords of micro-tonal scales while more minimalistic allows musicians to make songs sound/feel more like 12TET with micro-tones only acting as decorations (yet, to many people I'm sure, that approach makes things sound more normal and accessible)."

If you wanted to make a chord progression for me, maybe in one of your great new tunings, maybe a melody too (or not), I'd love to remix it!

Sean

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

>"I'm making music for my own enjoyment (to please my own ear), not to hit targets such as "use more than 4 tones in a chord."
I admit perhaps we just disagree a bit here...on one hand I completely agree micro-tonal music should be enjoyed primarily for its own sake but, on the other hand, It would be icing on the cake if the larger musical world took notice. On the side, I fear micro-tonalists are often interpreted by the public as too busy basking in their avant-garde glory to take virtually any notice of what the public wants...and though I'd hate for micro-tonal music to become "like MTV" (the other extreme), I'd love to smash that stereotype.

I've asked people what they think micro-tonal means and they say
something like "oh, you mean that classical Arabic/Indian stuff" and
sometimes also "...that's largely monophonic with a few typical
chromatic scale chords backing it up".

>"It's (thankfully) not what I insist on at all... Wasn't Whitey
xenharmonic enough for ya? That's why I'm glad you wrote a tune for the
comp mate. :) The harmony on it is really dense, with loads going on."
First question (pardon my ignorance here)...what's "Whitey Xenharmonic"?

For the record also, I think "4 tones in a chord" is a good starting point to state "this can be used as well in harmony as 12TET" and I realize pop music often avoids 5+ tone chords (I'm not trying to advocate people go as crazy as I do and make 6+ note chord songs).
I just happen to go over the top to use huge chords (and yes, that contribution I made is really dense...it has 7-9 tone monster chords...much also because I enjoy that style and used to do that with the usual 12TET-based Western 7-tone non-micro-tonal modes but ran into many problems I've found of which are solved with micro-tonality). :-)

>"Personally I think too much complex harmony would spoil the dub - it's
more about effects, capturing a hazy mood, being balanced and flowing
rather than deep harmonic exploration."
Right...I guess my opinion is that it makes more ground on proving the validity of the style of dub than on micro-tonality and it's ability to be used for non-12TET-style harmony.

>"It's (thankfully) not what I insist on at all..."
Put it this way...I think your work and his is very well done and see how it could come across very well "even" in the pieces that don't fit the admittedly dense/harmonic style I gravitate to. It's fair to say I have a second, more political side that just wants to find and make songs that prove micro-tonality can do things the general public has long sworn it can't.
Actually...same goes with beats. In my contribution (both for my own enjoyment and proof-of-concept) I consistently move both kick drums and snares on off beats so the beat is in constant rotation. There's no boom-click-boom (techno-like) or boom-snare-(pause)-snare (rock-like) or click-click-click(de)click (jazz like)...nothing metronome-esque. Here I'm trying to prove the concept that a steady beat with at least one drum repeating on metronome-type timings is the only way to provide a steady and confident sense of energy. (Sevish) it's funny because (hey maybe you just like that sound?)...but I can't help to think there's at least a bit of politics in some of the avant-garde meters you use for your drum-lines...and successfully tricked me into, say, thinking your Amen loop was not custom-made by doing so cleverly. ;-)

>"If you wanted to make a chord progression for me, maybe in one of your
great new tunings, maybe a melody too (or not), I'd love to remix it!"
Sounds great and will do gladly.

-Michael

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>

I can't resist throwing my 2¢-worth of kindling on this little fire.

> To me more maximalistic micro-tonal music forces people to use the advanced chords >of micro-tonal scales while more minimalistic allows musicians to make songs >sound/feel more like 12TET with micro-tones only acting as decorations (yet, to many >people I'm sure, that approach makes things sound more normal and accessible).

While I do agree that there is an unfortunate glut of near-monophonic microtonal music that sounds nearly indistinct from 12-tET, and that triadic harmony is generally more accessible than hexadic, I must strongly disagree that microtonal music based on hexadic harmony is more distinct-sounding from 12-tET than microtonal music based on triadic harmony.

The more non-unison voices you have in a chord, the less distinct of an identity that chord will have when compared to other chords composed of the same number of voices. It's the law of diminishing returns, really. So of course if the average listener has trouble distinguishing hexads in 12-tET, they'll obviously have trouble distinguishing a hexad in 12-tET from a hexad in 31-tET. Odds are their ear will "split the difference" or "round to the nearest familiar interval" and they will react indistinguishably on an emotional level.

Now, suppose you have a hexad composed mostly of unfamiliar intervals--the average listener's ear seems to "give up" trying to parse the sonic information and the result is that the chord is interpreted as "a cloud of sound". Sure, clouds come in different shapes, and you can distinguish a big puffy cloud from a long streaky cloud, but these are fuzzier distinctions than distinguishing, say, a circle from a square. Hence, a 31-tET cloud will be tricky to distinguish from a 19-tET cloud, or from a 5-limit JI cloud; or a cloud in 16-EDO will be hard to distinguish from a cloud in 14-EDO. It's the same trouble one encounters when making atonal music--atonal Bohlen-Pierce might as well be atonal 12-tET to all but the most evolved and educated ears.

In my experience, the best way to get music that is noticeably distinct from 12-tET and is NOT merely "microtonal decoration" is to use a combination of unfamiliar tonal structures and/or non-Pythagorean harmony. The Blackwood Decatonic scale in 15-EDO can sound QUITE far from 12-tET even with basic 5-limit triadic harmony, owing to the lack of a true whole-tone with which to construct melodies. The ssLsssL "anti-major" scale of 16-EDO sounds about as far from 12-tET as you can get, even having very similar nominally-5-limit triads. I frankly can't imagine anyone hearing music in those scales as 12-tET with "microtonal decoration". Even blurred by the dubby effects, I think Tony Dubshot's scales stand out as being quite distinct from 12-tET, precisely because they are NOT buried beneath a cloud of complex harmonies, and thus the unusual macrotonal melodies and harmonies are made more apparent.

I do agree with you that some styles of music reach their maximum potential with hexadic microtonal harmony--but it is a gross overstatement to dismiss microtonal music that relies on "minimalist" triadic harmony as "not living up to the potential" of microtonal music. I do share your frustration with the state of microtonal music in general--I feel like no one's really opened it up and started to truly tap the potential. But I see the short-comings not as a lack of harmonic complexity but rather as a lack of emotional relevance: if it doesn't MOVE me, I could give a flying you-know-what about how complex or intricate it is. Not to say that I can't be moved by complexity or that minimalism is more emotionally-relevant: both can be equally effective or equally lifeless. It just has to come from the heart and aim for the heart--too much "mind" is the typical problem.
> Carl>"It's already half way there with the synth work."
> >"Fans are used to listening to _sounds_."
> Indeed very odd timbres are already commonplace in electronica...when you program, say, a subtractive analog synthesizer it in no way aligns your sounds to harmonic overtones and many very talented electronica groups IE Way Out West even admit in interviews to things like using off-key chord samples and tuning them in such a way to minimize average dissonance...so, in a way, they are already practicing micro-tonality. Which all the "fairly non-harmonic" timbres floating around, I don't see why "odd scales" should be that much of a surprise.
>
> >"you don't need to worry about wolf intervals and such. Likewise with minimalism, ambient / deep listening, etc."
> I think a lot of this has to do with the "fluffy" nature of things like pads in electronica. The timbre of pads is constantly moving and this acts in a way so as to "abstractify" and muffle lack of periodicity.
>
>
> -Michael
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

>"While I do agree that there is an unfortunate glut of near-monophonic
microtonal music that sounds nearly indistinct from 12-tET"
Indeed...

>"I must
strongly disagree that microtonal music based on hexadic harmony is
more distinct-sounding from 12-tET than microtonal music based on
triadic harmony."

>"The more non-unison voices you have in a chord, the less distinct of an
identity that chord will have when compared to other chords composed of
the same number of voices. It's the law of diminishing returns, really."
I know it sure is a case of "diminishing returns" within typical 7-note scale use in 12TET. With 12TET (so I've heard and experienced via composing) tonal variety increases up to about a 5-note "jazz" chord, then goes down as you realize how few 6-note chords are available the don't clash to the point of having little tonal identity.

Meanwhile with micro-tonal I've found, with a little multiple octave separation to loosen things, huge harmonies are possible without worrying about things like "adding this note will make other notes out of tune and thus limit the number of consonant and distinct-sounding chords I can make with x number of tones".
-----------------
A counter-proof of the "diminishing returns" (especially for over 5-note chords) concept is a tricky thing, but if/once you hear my song/entry in Sevish's compilation CD I think it will make more sense.
-----------------

A second note...I said in my reply to Sevish that there was no real need to go beyond 4-note chords to "prove" how well micro-tonal music can work in true. I merely said I like to use 6+ note chords because it leads to a vast harmonic feel I've found virtually impossible to imitate with 12TET and indirectly seems to throw a huge cog in the face of those who think micro-tonal has to be mono-phonic.

>"Now, suppose you have a hexad composed mostly of unfamiliar
intervals--the average listener's ear seems to "give up" trying to
parse the sonic information and the result is that the chord is
interpreted as "a cloud of sound".
This does happen if either the intervals (critical band dissonance) or overtones (periodic/"JI" dissonance) are too close and "fight for space". The scale I used in my compilation song, for example, for the most part avoids both of these issues...largely in part by avoiding the near-mean-tone type methods used in Western tunings, which often ends up favoring larger intervals over smaller ones and includes the tiny "half-step", which violates critical band dissonance to death and causes a lot of this "clouding" in things like 13th chords.

>"So of course if the average listener has trouble distinguishing hexads
in 12-tET, they'll obviously have trouble distinguishing a hexad in
12-tET from a hexad in 31-tET."
IMVHO, if someone is building a scale that has only the same type of interval structures available in 12TET, there's not that much "new" about the scale at all. You seem to be agreeing with me there is too much micro-tonal music that sounds indistinct from 12TET and then saying "what applies to 12TET, especially with regards to 'tonal clouding' must apply to all other scales"...it sounds like a basic self-contradiction, at least on the surface.
Easy example, what if the "hexad" I'm making in a micro-tonal scale has all intervals drastically different from those in 12TET (IE many of them being 20+ cents wide or narrow of 12TET)? Maybe I'm making a 12:13:15:18:21:26 chord...and the closest thing to 13/12 in 12TET is around 9/8 or 15/14. I'm pretty sure people could hear the difference loud and clear. Academically I also find it an interesting challenge to make huge chords that work as I know any of a huge chord's subsets can be broken into several more layers of chords that are guaranteed to also work.

>"but it is a gross overstatement to dismiss microtonal music that relies
on "minimalist" triadic harmony as "not living up to the potential" of
microtonal music."
That sounds like a gross mis-statement of what I said (or at least meant to say). I said the potential I was discussing was that of polyphony and the purpose of "proving" just how much that's now "tonally illegal" could be made legal (and consonant in that sense!) using micro-tonal polyphony in the face of the sadly popular idea that micro-tonality "is really just for monophonic music".
There is a good deal of great micro-tonal music floating around...just not much that says "this shows very consonant chords impossible with 12TET".

>"In my experience, the best way to get music that is noticeably distinct
from 12-tET and is NOT merely "microtonal decoration" is to use a
combination of unfamiliar tonal structures and/or non-Pythagorean
harmony."
Exactly. My favorite is "Ptolemic"...but I've heard harmony from things like Wilson's 6-tone MOS scales and octa-tonic scales under 22TET which have a similar effect.

>"The Blackwood Decatonic scale in 15-EDO can sound QUITE far from 12-tET
even with basic 5-limit triadic harmony, owing to the lack of a true
whole-tone with which to construct melodies."
I'll say this much, the type of music you seem to be focused on seems to be a great example of how to prove the value of distinct-sounding micro-tonal melody. Yet I'm talking about micro-tonal harmony/polyphony. And I agree: melody can often sound more distinct when harmony is not there to "curve" its sound.

>"But I see the short-comings not as a lack of harmonic complexity but
rather as a lack of emotional relevance: if it doesn't MOVE me, I could
give a flying you-know-what about how complex or intricate it is."
Yet the same could be true of any musical theory IE I could just as easily say "this music has melodies in a scale that really stands out because of it's lack of a whole-tone in an academic sense, but that doesn't mean it has any decent emotional content". It's a danger with any genre of music, any scale, any theory, any tempo, any instrumental arrangement, any production technique...it surely isn't specific to how musicians decide to use or not use larger chords.

The reason I feel inclined to push the idea of micro-tonal polyphony is to let musicians know "hey guess what...this is an option...while you can happily stay with simple/elegant chords you can also drop in something huge and add a burst of energy without sounding like you dropped a bomb on your listener's ear drums".

It just gives more options I figure...of course it's up to the musician to use those options in a way that hits home emotionally And the more theoretical options a musician knows they have handy...the more likely it is one of them will nail the emotion they want.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗cameron <misterbobro@...>

According to my experience, the kind of tunings you are working on will prove to be excellent for tall chords with distinct characters.

I just uploaded a tune at the Ning, without saying what the tuning is. It is a test of peoples' concept of "xenharmonic", you can vote and explain whether it sounds "xenharmonic" to you or not, I'm very curious indeed!

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:
>
> >"While I do agree that there is an unfortunate glut of near-monophonic
> microtonal music that sounds nearly indistinct from 12-tET"
> Indeed...
>
> >"I must
> strongly disagree that microtonal music based on hexadic harmony is
> more distinct-sounding from 12-tET than microtonal music based on
> triadic harmony."
>
> >"The more non-unison voices you have in a chord, the less distinct of an
> identity that chord will have when compared to other chords composed of
> the same number of voices. It's the law of diminishing returns, really."
> I know it sure is a case of "diminishing returns" within typical 7-note scale use in 12TET. With 12TET (so I've heard and experienced via composing) tonal variety increases up to about a 5-note "jazz" chord, then goes down as you realize how few 6-note chords are available the don't clash to the point of having little tonal identity.
>
> Meanwhile with micro-tonal I've found, with a little multiple octave separation to loosen things, huge harmonies are possible without worrying about things like "adding this note will make other notes out of tune and thus limit the number of consonant and distinct-sounding chords I can make with x number of tones".
> -----------------
> A counter-proof of the "diminishing returns" (especially for over 5-note chords) concept is a tricky thing, but if/once you hear my song/entry in Sevish's compilation CD I think it will make more sense.
> -----------------
>
> A second note...I said in my reply to Sevish that there was no real need to go beyond 4-note chords to "prove" how well micro-tonal music can work in true. I merely said I like to use 6+ note chords because it leads to a vast harmonic feel I've found virtually impossible to imitate with 12TET and indirectly seems to throw a huge cog in the face of those who think micro-tonal has to be mono-phonic.
>
> >"Now, suppose you have a hexad composed mostly of unfamiliar
> intervals--the average listener's ear seems to "give up" trying to
> parse the sonic information and the result is that the chord is
> interpreted as "a cloud of sound".
> This does happen if either the intervals (critical band dissonance) or overtones (periodic/"JI" dissonance) are too close and "fight for space". The scale I used in my compilation song, for example, for the most part avoids both of these issues...largely in part by avoiding the near-mean-tone type methods used in Western tunings, which often ends up favoring larger intervals over smaller ones and includes the tiny "half-step", which violates critical band dissonance to death and causes a lot of this "clouding" in things like 13th chords.
>
> >"So of course if the average listener has trouble distinguishing hexads
> in 12-tET, they'll obviously have trouble distinguishing a hexad in
> 12-tET from a hexad in 31-tET."
> IMVHO, if someone is building a scale that has only the same type of interval structures available in 12TET, there's not that much "new" about the scale at all. You seem to be agreeing with me there is too much micro-tonal music that sounds indistinct from 12TET and then saying "what applies to 12TET, especially with regards to 'tonal clouding' must apply to all other scales"...it sounds like a basic self-contradiction, at least on the surface.
> Easy example, what if the "hexad" I'm making in a micro-tonal scale has all intervals drastically different from those in 12TET (IE many of them being 20+ cents wide or narrow of 12TET)? Maybe I'm making a 12:13:15:18:21:26 chord...and the closest thing to 13/12 in 12TET is around 9/8 or 15/14. I'm pretty sure people could hear the difference loud and clear. Academically I also find it an interesting challenge to make huge chords that work as I know any of a huge chord's subsets can be broken into several more layers of chords that are guaranteed to also work.
>
> >"but it is a gross overstatement to dismiss microtonal music that relies
> on "minimalist" triadic harmony as "not living up to the potential" of
> microtonal music."
> That sounds like a gross mis-statement of what I said (or at least meant to say). I said the potential I was discussing was that of polyphony and the purpose of "proving" just how much that's now "tonally illegal" could be made legal (and consonant in that sense!) using micro-tonal polyphony in the face of the sadly popular idea that micro-tonality "is really just for monophonic music".
> There is a good deal of great micro-tonal music floating around...just not much that says "this shows very consonant chords impossible with 12TET".
>
> >"In my experience, the best way to get music that is noticeably distinct
> from 12-tET and is NOT merely "microtonal decoration" is to use a
> combination of unfamiliar tonal structures and/or non-Pythagorean
> harmony."
> Exactly. My favorite is "Ptolemic"...but I've heard harmony from things like Wilson's 6-tone MOS scales and octa-tonic scales under 22TET which have a similar effect.
>
> >"The Blackwood Decatonic scale in 15-EDO can sound QUITE far from 12-tET
> even with basic 5-limit triadic harmony, owing to the lack of a true
> whole-tone with which to construct melodies."
> I'll say this much, the type of music you seem to be focused on seems to be a great example of how to prove the value of distinct-sounding micro-tonal melody. Yet I'm talking about micro-tonal harmony/polyphony. And I agree: melody can often sound more distinct when harmony is not there to "curve" its sound.
>
> >"But I see the short-comings not as a lack of harmonic complexity but
> rather as a lack of emotional relevance: if it doesn't MOVE me, I could
> give a flying you-know-what about how complex or intricate it is."
> Yet the same could be true of any musical theory IE I could just as easily say "this music has melodies in a scale that really stands out because of it's lack of a whole-tone in an academic sense, but that doesn't mean it has any decent emotional content". It's a danger with any genre of music, any scale, any theory, any tempo, any instrumental arrangement, any production technique...it surely isn't specific to how musicians decide to use or not use larger chords.
>
> The reason I feel inclined to push the idea of micro-tonal polyphony is to let musicians know "hey guess what...this is an option...while you can happily stay with simple/elegant chords you can also drop in something huge and add a burst of energy without sounding like you dropped a bomb on your listener's ear drums".
>
> It just gives more options I figure...of course it's up to the musician to use those options in a way that hits home emotionally And the more theoretical options a musician knows they have handy...the more likely it is one of them will nail the emotion they want.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

🔗Graham Breed <gbreed@...>

🔗sevishmusic <sevish@...>

🔗cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>

Hi Michael,
Well, I guess I may have interpreted your response to Tony's music as being more dismissive than you meant it. I got kind of a "well it's nice but it's failing to meet the potential of microtonal music" message from it, as well as a "because it lacks complex harmony, it sounds too close to 12-tET" message. Perhaps you didn't mean that.

At any rate, I'm very much interested to hear your piece! If you have found a microtonal scale which can make hexads sound as identifiable and distinct as triads, that will blow my mind...especially if you can take a progression of those hexads and play a powerful melody over it! But I was certainly not talking only about harmonies which are close to 12-tET having a sound-cloud problem. I had to rewrite that response because Yahoo logged me out while writing my first one and it vanished when I had to re-log in to post it. In my original, I mentioned an example of me playing some harmonic-series pentads (specifically 4:7:9:11:13) in both JI and 17-EDO for various audiences, expecting a stunned reaction at the unfamiliar harmony and instead getting an "it sounds like you're just mashing piano keys" reaction. I can't imagine a pentad further from 12-tET than 4:7:9:11:13. It has been my experience that the more complex and the more unfamiliar the harmony being employed in a microtonal scale, the less the average listener can distinguish it from 12-tET--ESPECIALLY if the intervals being used are QUITE different from 12-tET. So I will be VERY interested to see what you can do with these scales you're working with! Maybe you'll get me interested in some of them.

But indeed, this is an issue that can ONLY be settled with music, so I'm gonna shut up with the words now.

🔗jonszanto <jszanto@...>

Warning: potential heresy alert.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:
> Actually...same goes with beats. In my contribution (both for my own enjoyment and proof-of-concept) I consistently move both kick drums and snares on off beats so the beat is in constant rotation. There's no boom-click-boom (techno-like) or boom-snare-(pause)-snare (rock-like) or click-click-click(de)click (jazz like)...nothing metronome-esque. Here I'm trying to prove the concept that a steady beat with at least one drum repeating on metronome-type timings is the only way to provide a steady and confident sense of energy. (Sevish) it's funny because (hey maybe you just like that sound?)...but I can't help to think there's at least a bit of politics in some of the avant-garde meters you use for your drum-lines...and successfully tricked me into, say, thinking your Amen loop was not custom-made by doing so cleverly. ;-)

Michael, please feel free to email me off-list with this, so as to not interrupt the flow of true microtonality content, but I'd love a link to a couple of your pieces that exhibit this quality.

The reason?

Well, I'm a percussionist. All my life. And outside of the rare occasions that involve drinks and dancing, most of the rhythm tracks in most contemporary dance forms bore me. They bore my body, and bore my mind. I suffered through disco, the introduction of "four on the floor" so that white people (the descriptive term, not the racial term) could dance comfortably. It hasn't ever gotten much, or any, better.

On my best days, I can understand the desire to expand the melodic and harmonic palette for these forms of 'popular' (as opposed to 'art') music, but as long as the rhythm tracks remain rooted in Western-oriented, 4/4 easily predictable patterns, boundary-pushing in just one area remains both unfulfilling and ultimately uninteresting to me.

Just me, not anyone or everyone else. But I'd be curious to hear your take on trying to step outside of that particular groove box.

Again, since this is a bit off-topic, answer off-list if you feel it is appropriate.

Cheers,
Jon

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

>"According to my experience, the kind of tunings you are working on will
prove to be excellent for tall chords with distinct characters."
Thank you. :-)

On the other hand, I realize I am working on scales with more chord possibilities (including the splitting of these "tall chords" into tons of much smaller ones)...and that someone else can easily make impressive micro-tonal music without them. I'm not trying to promote a "one way street" here, but just saying I wish more people would work-on improving and using this sort of thing in composition whereas tons of people (Tony included) are doing cool things with micro-tonal harmony and basic chord IE triad-type backing.

>"I just uploaded a tune at the Ning, without saying what the tuning is.
It is a test of peoples' concept of "xenharmonic" , you can vote and
explain whether it sounds "xenharmonic" to you or not, I'm very curious
indeed! "
I will definitely check it out....

________________________________
From: cameron <misterbobro@...>
To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, April 12, 2010 4:21:10 AM
Subject: Re: [MMM] Omega Dub

According to my experience, the kind of tunings you are working on will prove to be excellent for tall chords with distinct characters.

I just uploaded a tune at the Ning, without saying what the tuning is. It is a test of peoples' concept of "xenharmonic" , you can vote and explain whether it sounds "xenharmonic" to you or not, I'm very curious indeed!

--- In MakeMicroMusic@ yahoogroups. com, Michael <djtrancendance@ ...> wrote:
>
> >"While I do agree that there is an unfortunate glut of near-monophonic
> microtonal music that sounds nearly indistinct from 12-tET"
> Indeed...
>
> >"I must
> strongly disagree that microtonal music based on hexadic harmony is
> more distinct-sounding from 12-tET than microtonal music based on
> triadic harmony."
>
> >"The more non-unison voices you have in a chord, the less distinct of an
> identity that chord will have when compared to other chords composed of
> the same number of voices. It's the law of diminishing returns, really."
> I know it sure is a case of "diminishing returns" within typical 7-note scale use in 12TET. With 12TET (so I've heard and experienced via composing) tonal variety increases up to about a 5-note "jazz" chord, then goes down as you realize how few 6-note chords are available the don't clash to the point of having little tonal identity.
>
> Meanwhile with micro-tonal I've found, with a little multiple octave separation to loosen things, huge harmonies are possible without worrying about things like "adding this note will make other notes out of tune and thus limit the number of consonant and distinct-sounding chords I can make with x number of tones".
> ------------ -----
> A counter-proof of the "diminishing returns" (especially for over 5-note chords) concept is a tricky thing, but if/once you hear my song/entry in Sevish's compilation CD I think it will make more sense.
> ------------ -----
>
> A second note...I said in my reply to Sevish that there was no real need to go beyond 4-note chords to "prove" how well micro-tonal music can work in true. I merely said I like to use 6+ note chords because it leads to a vast harmonic feel I've found virtually impossible to imitate with 12TET and indirectly seems to throw a huge cog in the face of those who think micro-tonal has to be mono-phonic.
>
> >"Now, suppose you have a hexad composed mostly of unfamiliar
> intervals--the average listener's ear seems to "give up" trying to
> parse the sonic information and the result is that the chord is
> interpreted as "a cloud of sound".
> This does happen if either the intervals (critical band dissonance) or overtones (periodic/"JI" dissonance) are too close and "fight for space". The scale I used in my compilation song, for example, for the most part avoids both of these issues...largely in part by avoiding the near-mean-tone type methods used in Western tunings, which often ends up favoring larger intervals over smaller ones and includes the tiny "half-step", which violates critical band dissonance to death and causes a lot of this "clouding" in things like 13th chords.
>
> >"So of course if the average listener has trouble distinguishing hexads
> in 12-tET, they'll obviously have trouble distinguishing a hexad in
> 12-tET from a hexad in 31-tET."
> IMVHO, if someone is building a scale that has only the same type of interval structures available in 12TET, there's not that much "new" about the scale at all. You seem to be agreeing with me there is too much micro-tonal music that sounds indistinct from 12TET and then saying "what applies to 12TET, especially with regards to 'tonal clouding' must apply to all other scales"...it sounds like a basic self-contradiction, at least on the surface.
> Easy example, what if the "hexad" I'm making in a micro-tonal scale has all intervals drastically different from those in 12TET (IE many of them being 20+ cents wide or narrow of 12TET)? Maybe I'm making a 12:13:15:18: 21:26 chord...and the closest thing to 13/12 in 12TET is around 9/8 or 15/14. I'm pretty sure people could hear the difference loud and clear. Academically I also find it an interesting challenge to make huge chords that work as I know any of a huge chord's subsets can be broken into several more layers of chords that are guaranteed to also work.
>
> >"but it is a gross overstatement to dismiss microtonal music that relies
> on "minimalist" triadic harmony as "not living up to the potential" of
> microtonal music."
> That sounds like a gross mis-statement of what I said (or at least meant to say). I said the potential I was discussing was that of polyphony and the purpose of "proving" just how much that's now "tonally illegal" could be made legal (and consonant in that sense!) using micro-tonal polyphony in the face of the sadly popular idea that micro-tonality "is really just for monophonic music".
> There is a good deal of great micro-tonal music floating around...just not much that says "this shows very consonant chords impossible with 12TET".
>
> >"In my experience, the best way to get music that is noticeably distinct
> from 12-tET and is NOT merely "microtonal decoration" is to use a
> combination of unfamiliar tonal structures and/or non-Pythagorean
> harmony."
> Exactly. My favorite is "Ptolemic".. .but I've heard harmony from things like Wilson's 6-tone MOS scales and octa-tonic scales under 22TET which have a similar effect.
>
> >"The Blackwood Decatonic scale in 15-EDO can sound QUITE far from 12-tET
> even with basic 5-limit triadic harmony, owing to the lack of a true
> whole-tone with which to construct melodies."
> I'll say this much, the type of music you seem to be focused on seems to be a great example of how to prove the value of distinct-sounding micro-tonal melody. Yet I'm talking about micro-tonal harmony/polyphony. And I agree: melody can often sound more distinct when harmony is not there to "curve" its sound.
>
> >"But I see the short-comings not as a lack of harmonic complexity but
> rather as a lack of emotional relevance: if it doesn't MOVE me, I could
> give a flying you-know-what about how complex or intricate it is."
> Yet the same could be true of any musical theory IE I could just as easily say "this music has melodies in a scale that really stands out because of it's lack of a whole-tone in an academic sense, but that doesn't mean it has any decent emotional content". It's a danger with any genre of music, any scale, any theory, any tempo, any instrumental arrangement, any production technique... it surely isn't specific to how musicians decide to use or not use larger chords.
>
> The reason I feel inclined to push the idea of micro-tonal polyphony is to let musicians know "hey guess what...this is an option...while you can happily stay with simple/elegant chords you can also drop in something huge and add a burst of energy without sounding like you dropped a bomb on your listener's ear drums".
>
> It just gives more options I figure...of course it's up to the musician to use those options in a way that hits home emotionally And the more theoretical options a musician knows they have handy...the more likely it is one of them will nail the emotion they want.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

>"I got kind of a "well it's nice but it's failing to meet the potential of microtonal music" message from it"
Well that is admittedly partly what I meant...on one hand it's very accomplished as well-produced easy to listen to dub. On the other...I don't see much that I think could be used to make musicians think more than "that's pretty cool"...nothing that would make them just into using micro-tonal tunings themselves for more than guiltless self indulgence. How to give an example...I loved listening to old groups like The Offspring and Santana and respect their work a lot, but it was a few people like Satriani who made think "wow, now that is wild!" and jump at the idea of buying a guitar and then practice it daily.

>"At any rate, I'm very much interested to hear your piece! If you have
found a microtonal scale which can make hexads sound as identifiable and distinct as triads, that will blow my mind...especially if you can take a progression of those hexads and play a powerful melody over it!"
Actually what I do in that piece is I make melodies that drone and thus form together into chords. So admittedly it's not, say, 6-notes droning at maximum volume all the time and more like 4 instruments sounding/"attacking" at once and that others playing on off-beats. Plus it's spaced over several (3-4) octaves. So when I say 6-tone chord, I don't mean banging on all 6 notes at once...that could cause lots of clouding even in a very clear scale.

>"In my original, I mentioned an example of me playing some
harmonic-series pentads (specifically 4:7:9:11:13) in both JI and 17-EDO for various audiences, expecting a stunned reaction at the unfamiliar
harmony and instead getting an "it sounds like you're just mashing piano keys" reaction."
Maybe you are giving yourself enough chance?...I would get the actual volume over overtones during the first 10-30 milliseconds of hitting the piano keys would be largely responsible for the response...you might want to try the same sort of thing but run down the pentads playing only 1 note at once like an arpeggio (maybe every 32nd note or so) and then letting them drone. Even in 17EDO (not the most easily harmonic tuning IMVHO), I think you can manage some decently consonant pentads. :-)

>"It has been my experience that the more complex and the more
unfamiliar the harmony being employed in a microtonal scale, the less
the average listener can distinguish it from 12-tET--ESPECIALLY if the
intervals being used are QUITE different from 12-tET. "
True, but my experience with such intervals is that they are either too narrowly spaced (root tone conflict) or too non-periodic (harmonic/overtone conflict) to avoid clashing. The more notes you have, the harder it is not to have them set off mines on each other. :-D Also my experience tells me, most types of TET scales (minus unbearably high TET's) just don't have the accuracy to hit scales like the one I use in that song.
For your amusement though, here's an old (admittedly quite dissonant and a bit naive) early attempt of mine to make 8-note scales with 5-6 note chords in 19TET.
http://www.traxinspace.com/song/37440
And a slightly later one along the same lines using 12TET for some parts and micro-tonal scales for others (actually managed to convince some people nothing was "out of tune" in this one somehow)
http://www.traxinspace.com/song/40893

>"But indeed, this is an issue that can ONLY be settled with music, so I'm gonna shut up with the words now."
Well, we will see what happens. :-)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗sevishmusic <sevish@...>

🔗freq_divider <freq.div@...>

hello everybody, Sean told me that there was a little discussion going on over here, about my release on Split Notes so i thought i'd join in :)

first of all i have to say i don't consider myself primarily a microtonal composer. as cliche as it sounds my thing is simply 'music' and especially electronic music and for me that starts with rhythm and timbre. i try to create lively sounds with electronic instruments, i use mainly analog stuff. although this 'Omega Dub' album sounds mostly very relaxed i also do uneasy stuff :-)

i also like playing live a lot, percussion jam sessions and jammin with other musicians (i was a session leader for many years) but in electronic music i have more freedom to do my own thing. with the electronic stuff i always try to get inner movement in each and every sound meaning i'll never use a flat static repetitive type of sound. my style/genre is mainly dub and in dub there are very few rules, but one of the rules to break in reggae is boring chords. that's how i got into xenharmonics. although in a lot of my music there are no chords at all, i also like to 'dub' the reggae harmonies, for example when i retune reggae melodies/basslines to 5-tet and 7-tet (minimalism is good in dub) but i also like a challenge so i've also done 8, 9 and 10 tet (and yes i've matched the overtones/spectrums to the tunes)

maybe, if i get bored with these tunings, i'll also try the more esoteric stuff but like i said, i'm not a composer of harmonies like Sean, i'm just searching for interesting harmonic effects that fit a certain musical mood, whether spectral (i like ligeti & messiaen too) atonal, 12-tet, not-so-12-tet or otherwise. right now my real challenge is to write albums in a certain style and have a very different approach for each album. these albums are all being released on my own label called Dubbhism. it's over here: http://dubshot.blogspot.com

greetings! Anton

🔗cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>

Ah HA! Yes, arpeggiation makes a world of difference in intelligibility of extremely-polyphonic chords, though the line there starts to blur between melody and harmony at that point. Spacing out over multiple octaves also makes a big difference. If that's how you approach it, then I am definitely not surprised you've had success. I thought you were advocating using hexads as accompaniment the way triads are used in common-practice, just holding all their notes together under a melody or really banging away at them en bloc.

At any rate, I think you might want to consider Tony's music as something other than microtonal...because it's NOT microtonal, it's MACROtonal. Different philosophy entirely, though still distinct from 12. The point of macrotonality is usually to make harmony simpler, melody more "fool-proof", and the overall mood often more tropical/exotic. They obviously shouldn't be consider an "evolution" of tonal music.

So, on listening to the tracks you linked to, I think you've got a much better touch for this complex-harmony stuff than maybe anyone I've heard yet. The 19-tET piece is actually one of the most compelling uses of that temperament I've heard, and I've heard a LOT of 19. Most 19 is either bland 5-limit stuff or microchromatic fidgeting, but this was...emotionally affecting while still being totally new-sounding. The first part was a bit dissonant, but the later sections really hit something good, especially the part that starts around 2:02. I'm excited to hear more of your work!

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:
>
> >"I got kind of a "well it's nice but it's failing to meet the potential of microtonal music" message from it"
> Well that is admittedly partly what I meant...on one hand it's very accomplished as well-produced easy to listen to dub. On the other...I don't see much that I think could be used to make musicians think more than "that's pretty cool"...nothing that would make them just into using micro-tonal tunings themselves for more than guiltless self indulgence. How to give an example...I loved listening to old groups like The Offspring and Santana and respect their work a lot, but it was a few people like Satriani who made think "wow, now that is wild!" and jump at the idea of buying a guitar and then practice it daily.
>
>
> >"At any rate, I'm very much interested to hear your piece! If you have
> found a microtonal scale which can make hexads sound as identifiable and distinct as triads, that will blow my mind...especially if you can take a progression of those hexads and play a powerful melody over it!"
> Actually what I do in that piece is I make melodies that drone and thus form together into chords. So admittedly it's not, say, 6-notes droning at maximum volume all the time and more like 4 instruments sounding/"attacking" at once and that others playing on off-beats. Plus it's spaced over several (3-4) octaves. So when I say 6-tone chord, I don't mean banging on all 6 notes at once...that could cause lots of clouding even in a very clear scale.
>
> >"In my original, I mentioned an example of me playing some
> harmonic-series pentads (specifically 4:7:9:11:13) in both JI and 17-EDO for various audiences, expecting a stunned reaction at the unfamiliar
> harmony and instead getting an "it sounds like you're just mashing piano keys" reaction."
> Maybe you are giving yourself enough chance?...I would get the actual volume over overtones during the first 10-30 milliseconds of hitting the piano keys would be largely responsible for the response...you might want to try the same sort of thing but run down the pentads playing only 1 note at once like an arpeggio (maybe every 32nd note or so) and then letting them drone. Even in 17EDO (not the most easily harmonic tuning IMVHO), I think you can manage some decently consonant pentads. :-)
>
> >"It has been my experience that the more complex and the more
> unfamiliar the harmony being employed in a microtonal scale, the less
> the average listener can distinguish it from 12-tET--ESPECIALLY if the
> intervals being used are QUITE different from 12-tET. "
> True, but my experience with such intervals is that they are either too narrowly spaced (root tone conflict) or too non-periodic (harmonic/overtone conflict) to avoid clashing. The more notes you have, the harder it is not to have them set off mines on each other. :-D Also my experience tells me, most types of TET scales (minus unbearably high TET's) just don't have the accuracy to hit scales like the one I use in that song.
> For your amusement though, here's an old (admittedly quite dissonant and a bit naive) early attempt of mine to make 8-note scales with 5-6 note chords in 19TET.
> http://www.traxinspace.com/song/37440
> And a slightly later one along the same lines using 12TET for some parts and micro-tonal scales for others (actually managed to convince some people nothing was "out of tune" in this one somehow)
> http://www.traxinspace.com/song/40893
>
> >"But indeed, this is an issue that can ONLY be settled with music, so I'm gonna shut up with the words now."
> Well, we will see what happens. :-)
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

🔗jonszanto <jszanto@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

From the cutting edge:

http://www.myspace.com/therealrobertglasper
Check out "Oriental Folk Song." Skip ahead to 1:15, because before that it's
just some guy talking. The beat he does over the intro part is cool, but
check out at 1:52 when the verse comes in, and he does this roll on the
hihat.

I'll give away what he's doing afterwards, but let's see if anyone can get
it first :) If there's such a thing as "microtonal rhythms," that's it.

I'll give you a hint: "major chord."

-Mike

On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 6:38 PM, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> " I got to admit most percussion in pop music is boring to me as
> well."
>
> To Jon, Chris, and anyone else with an interest in "quirky but steady"
> percussion:
>
> Well here's a little trick from how I program drums that's not genre
> specific at all (although I also love drum&bass style glitch and
> liquid-cymbal tricks).
> Take a drum and play it, then play it 1/8 note later. Here your only
> interval is 1/8, so say you avoid repeating it by playing the drum after
> another 1/16th note delay. Now you have 1/8, 1/16...so you play the next hit
> 1/4 note later and have 1/8, 1/16, 1/4. Now play the next hit 1/32nd note
> later. Now you have 1/8, 1/16, 1/4, 1/32...at this point it become "legal"
> to use the 1/8th note delay again or any beat interval not in the list, but
> not any of the others intervals in the list since it has been "so long since
> you used 1/8".
> Now that you have one drum try it from another...but make sure that second
> drum also never hits on the same beat as the first. Do this with 5+ drums
> and you'll have yourself something like the "infinitely rotating" beats I
> usually like making. And it can be used in any meter.
> The benefit is this technique (or so I've found) gives you lots of energy
> (since usually one drum is "getting faster" while another is "getting
> slower" far as tempo between drum hits) without resorting to making any one
> drum pound constantly on the beat to "secure the momentum".
>
> Try it...it's fun....
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

Two more "microtonal rhythms," from D'angelo this time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fce41OOpUPk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcU9rt6z_6Y

A lot of what you could term "microtonal rhythms" came out of the neo-soul
movement of the late 90's and early 2000's. The guy who probably pioneered
the most of it was a hip hop producer named J Dilla. So when you see all of
these guys wearing "Dilla changed my life" shirts, that's why.

-Mike

On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 7:48 PM, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>wrote:

> From the cutting edge:
>
> http://www.myspace.com/therealrobertglasper
> Check out "Oriental Folk Song." Skip ahead to 1:15, because before that
> it's just some guy talking. The beat he does over the intro part is cool,
> but check out at 1:52 when the verse comes in, and he does this roll on the
> hihat.
>
> I'll give away what he's doing afterwards, but let's see if anyone can get
> it first :) If there's such a thing as "microtonal rhythms," that's it.
>
> I'll give you a hint: "major chord."
>
> -Mike
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 6:38 PM, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> " I got to admit most percussion in pop music is boring to me as
>> well."
>>
>> To Jon, Chris, and anyone else with an interest in "quirky but steady"
>> percussion:
>>
>> Well here's a little trick from how I program drums that's not genre
>> specific at all (although I also love drum&bass style glitch and
>> liquid-cymbal tricks).
>> Take a drum and play it, then play it 1/8 note later. Here your only
>> interval is 1/8, so say you avoid repeating it by playing the drum after
>> another 1/16th note delay. Now you have 1/8, 1/16...so you play the next hit
>> 1/4 note later and have 1/8, 1/16, 1/4. Now play the next hit 1/32nd note
>> later. Now you have 1/8, 1/16, 1/4, 1/32...at this point it become "legal"
>> to use the 1/8th note delay again or any beat interval not in the list, but
>> not any of the others intervals in the list since it has been "so long since
>> you used 1/8".
>> Now that you have one drum try it from another...but make sure that second
>> drum also never hits on the same beat as the first. Do this with 5+ drums
>> and you'll have yourself something like the "infinitely rotating" beats I
>> usually like making. And it can be used in any meter.
>> The benefit is this technique (or so I've found) gives you lots of energy
>> (since usually one drum is "getting faster" while another is "getting
>> slower" far as tempo between drum hits) without resorting to making any one
>> drum pound constantly on the beat to "secure the momentum".
>>
>> Try it...it's fun....
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Omega Dub

🔗sevishmusic <sevish@...>

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗sevishmusic <sevish@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

🔗sevishmusic <sevish@...>

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

🔗cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

🔗cameron <misterbobro@...>

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

🔗Graham Breed <gbreed@...>

🔗sevishmusic <sevish@...>

🔗cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>

🔗jonszanto <jszanto@...>

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗sevishmusic <sevish@...>

🔗sevishmusic <sevish@...>

🔗freq_divider <freq.div@...>

🔗cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...>

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

🔗jonszanto <jszanto@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

🔗jonszanto <jszanto@...>

🔗jonszanto <jszanto@...>

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

🔗jonszanto <jszanto@...>

🔗Graham Breed <gbreed@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗Graham Breed <gbreed@...>

🔗Graham Breed <gbreed@...>

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

🔗Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>