Flames

Sure, there's plenty of good folks here, and lots of interesting info...no problem. But, after being on this list for many years, there's way too much drama as well...I guess it depends on how one wants to live their life. And hey, for what it's worth...because of the drama, I think we are loosing out on getting more folks involved in tuning theory. As I've often said, I do not recommend anyone to this list...maybe that's fine with the folks here, but I'd just as soon get more people involved...why limit this list to just a very few folks, which it is now.
For example...this past week, I was greatly fortunate to get to hang with Rahim Alhaj, one of the world's great Oud maestros...he came to Denver to record, and I set the studio up, drove him around, etc. There was also a wonderful sitar player involved, and they are both deep cats. As far as tuning...well, Rahim knows tuning inside out, from the Iraqi perspective....as he said, there's 8 notes between Bb and B...and they know how to use them all. But, I would be embarrassed to refer Rahim here...he too wants no drama in his life. And today I'll be seeing jazz guitar great John Stowell, in town for a concert Sat...a great artist, interested in all facets of music...but again, why would I even mention this list to him? And, if that's ok with the folks here, it shouldn't be.
Trying to make a point...with the constant childish bickering, we limit our potential greatly, and that's too bad. I believe the study of tunings is a profound field, and should be much more widely known...but, if this list is representative of what we can offer folks in the larger world of music, and it unfortunately is to some degree, then we're screwed. I got off the other list because of the shenanigans between Reinhard and Lehman...two great intellects, that bicker like little kids...who needs it. Growing up is a wonderful thing...some of the folks here should try it...best...Hstick
www.microstick.net

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

saying its still a positive is not saying it can't be improved.

the only way to be 100% is to moderate each message.

and unless you are willing to do so I don't think it is going to happen.

Chris

On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 12:40 PM, Neil Haverstick <microstick@...>wrote:

>
>
>
> Sure, there's plenty of good folks here, and lots of interesting info...no
> problem. But, after being on this list for many years, there's way too much
> drama as well...I guess it depends on how one wants to live their life. And
> hey, for what it's worth...because of the drama, I think we are loosing out
> on getting more folks involved in tuning theory. As I've often said, I do
> not recommend anyone to this list...maybe that's fine with the folks here,
> but I'd just as soon get more people involved...why limit this list to just
> a very few folks, which it is now.
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>"and unless you are willing to do so I don't think it is going to happen."

Unless we can manage to make it socially uncool to flame on here and cool to put effort toward micro-tuning...even if that effort does not quite meet (your) standards (especially if you are very involved in this art and have been for a long time).
Many people start flames on here when they feel they aren't getting due credit for their efforts to learn...and when most people flame and don't get a response they usually give up figuring they don't have a receptive audience.
And the few who don't get it would get the message if a few members replied something like "please, you're boring us to tears with your flames...please try to talk about what positive you/we can do for the art of Micro-tonal music here". Once a flamer realizes his flaming is just making him look uncool and relatively useless he'll likely change his behavior or (in the odd case his only intention was likely to flame IE he is a troll) leave the group for his own reasons.

Ironically, I think the best friend of the flamer is often a moderator.
This is because moderators often have a bad tendency to use their power as an excuse to flame back (either by message or banning someone, often without warning and sometimes simply for disagreeing with them on a fairly subjective issue), thus setting a behavioral example that often comes across as both "flaming is cool" and "I'm cooler than you & I often enjoy mocking your inability to exercise my power" (lol).
**********************************************************************************
It seems obvious to me drama is an inevitable part of (even constructive) argument to an extent....it only gets non-constructive when people start assuming why X person said Y thing, call them idiots based on what they "think that person meant"...and generally take the stance "the best way to make the world a better place is to shut you up...you efforts are actually so bad they not only don't help but hurt...you get 0 credit for your efforts in this art". And of course, after hearing such an argument, many people (especially those new to tuning) would likely leave very very quickly...not exactly the way to enlarge our community IMVHO.

IMVHO there is a large amount of good advice on here...and the fighting in between would likely be solved if people changed their statements from absolutes like "you entire e-mail shows you know nothing about X" to something more like "I see X ideas you presented I like, Y ideas I didn't like...and see Z types of potential for the ones I did like. So we'd at least try to get something positive out of all our "intense arguments" at the end of the day.
We are, after all, in the fight to further the art of micro-tonal music and how welcome and accommodated people feel when being introduced to it, rather than to prove who can out-tune/compose who....right?

-Michael

_,_._,___

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I wish yahoo groups had what the SoOn message board has - a profanity filter

it replaces profane words with silly things like girl thingy and guy thingy

nothing ruins an insult faster than turning it into a comedic remark :-)

On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 1:24 PM, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:

>
>
> >"and unless you are willing to do so I don't think it is going to happen."
>
> Unless we can manage to make it socially uncool to flame on here and cool
> to put effort toward micro-tuning...even if that effort does not quite meet
> (your) standards (especially if you are very involved in this art and have
> been for a long time).
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Chris,

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
>
> I wish yahoo groups had what the SoOn message board has - a profanity filter
>
> it replaces profane words with silly things like girl thingy and guy thingy
>
> nothing ruins an insult faster than turning it into a comedic remark :-)

I have a mental filter in place that does this all the time. I just don't let this kind of stuff get under my skin.

You know, it's all part of human nature, and we need to keep that in mind. For all the computations of ratios and tunings, for all the gear talk that pops up regularly, most of the time the list is populated by musicians (in some fashion or other), and being artistically bent, emotional and passionate by nature.

Not everyone, and not all to a deep degree. But acknowledging that a good portion of an interest in an art form involves a passion, passionate words may flow. Stupid, insensitive, off-topic, and probably unnecessary and ineffectual, yes. But frequently as an affect of passionate beliefs. I'd hate to stifle passion.

Let's all try not to take any of this too much to heart, because I just looked: I started this list nearly nine years ago, and I can certainly say that these kind of times ebb and flow as the weeks and months go by. Don't feed into the bile, counter the negativity with positive contributions, and MMM will still manage to have a place. I sure as hell thought it would melt down completely a couple of times, and believe me, those were a lot worse than anything recent.

And still here we be.

Respectfully,
Jon

Neil, this is now the second time you are warming this up, after it had already been come to an end. It never stops if people keep doing this (I know, I am doing the same currently...)

My point is (I have already said so before and I think that still holds) that most of the time this group is quite a friendly place - I would say "flames" are, in any case, not a reason not to recommend it. (There might be other reasons - I can well imagine many discussions here would not be so interesting to a professional Oud master...)

And Neil, since we are on the subject - next time you want to write another of your postings against theory, that you don't need theory, that theory is no good or whatever, maybe could hold that back from time to time?
--
Hans Straub

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Neil Haverstick <microstick@...> wrote:
>
>
> Sure, there's plenty of good folks here, and lots of interesting info...no problem. But, after being on this list for many years, there's way too much drama as well...I guess it depends on how one wants to live their life. And hey, for what it's worth...because of the drama, I think we are loosing out on getting more folks involved in tuning theory. As I've often said, I do not recommend anyone to this list...maybe that's fine with the folks here, but I'd just as soon get more people involved...why limit this list to just a very few folks, which it is now.
> For example...this past week, I was greatly fortunate to get to hang with Rahim Alhaj, one of the world's great Oud maestros...he came to Denver to record, and I set the studio up, drove him around, etc. There was also a wonderful sitar player involved, and they are both deep cats. As far as tuning...well, Rahim knows tuning inside out, from the Iraqi perspective....as he said, there's 8 notes between Bb and B...and they know how to use them all. But, I would be embarrassed to refer Rahim here...he too wants no drama in his life. And today I'll be seeing jazz guitar great John Stowell, in town for a concert Sat...a great artist, interested in all facets of music...but again, why would I even mention this list to him? And, if that's ok with the folks here, it shouldn't be.
> Trying to make a point...with the constant childish bickering, we limit our potential greatly, and that's too bad. I believe the study of tunings is a profound field, and should be much more widely known...but, if this list is representative of what we can offer folks in the larger world of music, and it unfortunately is to some degree, then we're screwed. I got off the other list because of the shenanigans between Reinhard and Lehman...two great intellects, that bicker like little kids...who needs it. Growing up is a wonderful thing...some of the folks here should try it...best...Hstick
> www.microstick.net
>
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