JI, temperaments, music

First of all...music supercedes tuning. There are potentially an infinite number of ways to tune...I myself have greatly enjoyed the few I've explored so far, and I have plans to continue this path for the rest of my life...only wish there was more time. There are no rules or limits for artistic expression...as soon as someone starts applying rules, or saying "this is the only correct path," I know they do not know what they are talking about. Tuning theory is exactly that...if a person thinks all notes must be derived from the Harmonic Series, no problem for me...but, that doesn't mean that person has skills as a composer, player, arranger, or anything else....and hate to say it, after being on these forums for many years, I'm a bit underwhelmed by quality of the music I've heard from folks who come here. But, my opinion is just one of many, and if cats are having a good time composing and sharing what they do, that's a positive thing.
I just hosted a very successful blues show here in Denver, 3 bands, all killer musicians, and a remarkable lack of drama. There was no ego posturing, everybody did what they were supposed to do, and we sold it out, standing room only. My old friend Bob Lohr played with my band....he's been Chuck Berry's pianist for many years, and has recorded and produced many more excellent blues CD's over the years. In his solo on the slow blues "Goin' Down Slow," there was a moment when the feeling was so deep that it made me weep...as we might say, it was the real thing, and I was fortunate to be a part of it. If his piano had been tuned in JI, I don't think it would have made any difference...it was the expression of profound human feelings that moved me. If you can do that in JI, then that's what I wanna hear...and if you do it in 12 eq, I'm happy as a little piglet. You folks who worry about decimal points as applied to music might be better advised to learn how to convey those deep and profound emotional states...cause that's what music is all about, in the long run....best from the willage...Stickman

www.microstick.net

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Neil,

>"First of all...music supercedes tuning."
Of course...but at the same time I swear lack of possibilities so far as tuning can be a huge bottle-neck/limitation on music.
For example, a half-tone (as in 12TET) is not used as a consecutive note in a chord IE C C# F G is not a "resolved" chord because of the C# coming only a half-step after a C. Why not use something like a "C#" of 12/11 or 1.090909 instead of about 15/14 and make it feel at least resolved enough to be used commonly as a chord? To me tuning is about finding creative ways past musical constraints imposed by tunings like 12TET: it's about "the rules toward breaking rules".

>"Tuning theory is exactly that...if a person thinks all notes must be
derived from the Harmonic Series, no problem for me...but, that doesn't
mean that person has skills as a composer, player, arranger, or
anything else"
Agreed. For one, I write music IE http://www.traxinspace.com/song/40893 (partially micro-tonal) and http://www.traxinspace.com/song/37440 (19TET).
However I've recently stepped back to tuning due to frustration over having trouble finding the chords I want in my existing tunings and am just now getting back to composing with a 14-tone tuning that I believe solves the above problem IE making "resolved-sounding half-step-based chords" and enables several other types of typically-against-the-rules consonances...giving me more ways to nail the right/intended emotion (in addition to phrasing, arrangement, and other aspects of composition, of course).

>"If his piano had been tuned in JI, I don't think it would have made any
difference.. .it was the expression of profound human feelings that
moved me."
Of course, a great enough composer or performer can make freshness ooze out of any tuning.Or even out of a single tone via creative phrasing and attack patterns (African drummers anyone?)
For us who are only semi-gifted though...one particularly easy way to get inspiration toward making something fresh seems obvious: experiment with new tunings (especially intervals distinguishably different than 12TET). To me it functions much like arrangement and choosing what types of timbre to use in an electronica piece: it can freshen and sometime completely change the mood of a tune. I certainly don't go around saying "oh that must be boring b/c it's in 12TET"...but if I see someone's using a scale with completely new chords that does not seem to mathematically imply out of control dissonance, it does lead me to think "this probably sounds fresh...definitely for the sake of the scale used and perhaps for a lot more...I should at least check it out".

>"If his piano had been tuned in JI, I don't think it would have made any difference"
True, if you mean JI with all steps approximating typical JI chords like 3:4:6. But if he were allowed chords like 11:12:14...I'm pretty sure there would be an extra bit of wow in the audience's reaction. To me, tuning can't turn ok into great far as music...but it can at times turn good into great or great into otherworldly great.

>"You folks who worry about decimal points as applied to music might be
better advised to learn how to convey those deep and profound emotional
states...cause that's what music is all about, in the long run"
Right...but what happens when you literally end up thinking the note between C and C#, say....would add just the right flavor to your chord to recreate the emotion you want? Sure you can estimate to the nearest 12TET option...but, to me at least, micro-tonal will always be the icing on the cake.
Note though...I do think it's kind of ridiculous when people argue and ego-tize about things like is 3/2 or 74/49 a better ratio when they both sound almost exactly the same (this applies to meantone, certain types of JI, or just about any tuning within 13 cents or so of 12TET...mere hundredths of decimal points "off").

-Michael

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At 11:06 AM 2/9/10 -0700, Neil Haverstick wrote:
>
> There are potentially an infinite number of ways to tune.

True, alongside an infinite number of color combinations. Nevertheless,
there is a limit to the number of colors that can be discerned by the human
eye, imposing a limit on the number of combinations. Apparently, there is a
limit to the number of pitches that can be discerned by the human ear.

How far apart must pitches be to be discerned melodically?

How far out of tune must a pitch be to change the perception of beating (as
in tuning a piano)?

-- Beco dos Gatinhos <http://www.rev.net/~aloe/music/tuning.html>

But there may be an infinite number of "ways" to perceive the same
pitch, and that's what counts.

You can make a 12-tet minor third sound like 6/5, or 7/6, or 19/16, or
75/64, given the right "context." Such as the other notes in the
chord.

Take a 12-tet chord like C E F# B D# - that D# on top sounds a lot
different harmonically from the Eb on top in C-Eb-G-C-Eb. In one case,
your brain hears the whole structure in such a way that the C-D# is
related by a rough 75/32, and in the other case your brain hears the
overall structure in such a way that the C-Eb is related by a rough
12/5.

So to answer your question, "zero" cents.

-Mike

On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 3:07 PM, <ALOE@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> At 11:06 AM 2/9/10 -0700, Neil Haverstick wrote:
> >
> > There are potentially an infinite number of ways to tune.
>
> True, alongside an infinite number of color combinations. Nevertheless,
> there is a limit to the number of colors that can be discerned by the human
> eye, imposing a limit on the number of combinations. Apparently, there is a
> limit to the number of pitches that can be discerned by the human ear.
>
> How far apart must pitches be to be discerned melodically?
>
> How far out of tune must a pitch be to change the perception of beating (as
> in tuning a piano)?
>
> -- Beco dos Gatinhos <http://www.rev.net/~aloe/music/tuning.html>
>
>

Also, just for the sake of not beating a dead horse: we just had a
huge, huge discussion about this very subject on the tuning list,
which went up and down and over into other issues and back again, and
it's still going on. So before this turns into a repeat of the exact
same topic, and everyone's email is all the more clogged up over it -
it might be better discussed over there.

-Mike

On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 6:26 PM, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:
> But there may be an infinite number of "ways" to perceive the same
> pitch, and that's what counts.
>
> You can make a 12-tet minor third sound like 6/5, or 7/6, or 19/16, or
> 75/64, given the right "context." Such as the other notes in the
> chord.
>
> Take a 12-tet chord like C E F# B D# - that D# on top sounds a lot
> different harmonically from the Eb on top in C-Eb-G-C-Eb. In one case,
> your brain hears the whole structure in such a way that the C-D# is
> related by a rough 75/32, and in the other case your brain hears the
> overall structure in such a way that the C-Eb is related by a rough
> 12/5.
>
> So to answer your question, "zero" cents.
>
> -Mike
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 3:07 PM, <ALOE@...> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> At 11:06 AM 2/9/10 -0700, Neil Haverstick wrote:
>> >
>> > There are potentially an infinite number of ways to tune.
>>
>> True, alongside an infinite number of color combinations. Nevertheless,
>> there is a limit to the number of colors that can be discerned by the human
>> eye, imposing a limit on the number of combinations. Apparently, there is a
>> limit to the number of pitches that can be discerned by the human ear.
>>
>> How far apart must pitches be to be discerned melodically?
>>
>> How far out of tune must a pitch be to change the perception of beating (as
>> in tuning a piano)?
>>
>> -- Beco dos Gatinhos <http://www.rev.net/~aloe/music/tuning.html>
>>
>>
>

>> True, alongside an infinite number of color combinations. Nevertheless,
>> there is a limit to the number of colors that can be discerned by the human
>> eye, imposing a limit on the number of combinations.

Awesome question....and I think I may well have a good answer.

By ear I tested this with two sine waves at 261hz (middle C), moving the second one further apart until I could tell a difference in the tonal color.

And an answer I got for two recognizably different tonal colors is 39/38. That's a multiple of 1.025. But while the color sounds distinct, it doesn't sound drastically different. BTW, that just about matches the difference between two tones in 28TET.
However, to make the tone color sound signiificantly different (IE you can tell the difference without forcing yourself to listen for it) I've found you need around a 29/28 difference in tone...which amounts to a bit over a half a 12TET semitone difference (not too far from Arabic quarter tones). To me eighth tones sound more like distorted/"slightly bent" quarter tones than new tonal colors.

Granted...this "test" I did assumes the tones you are using are in the C5-C6 range. Go to the C7 range and you may well be able to differentiate between smaller ratios...while in low ranges you may need larger ones for different color...just because the critical band of human hearing is curved. But it should prove fairly valid for most melodies within the commonly used starting at C4 ending at C7 range.

-Michael