Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup makemicromusic A couple of thoughts from the founder of MMM

(Yeah, I played *that* card...)

1. AKJ: Nicely done. And good that it was done. We all learn from these things, and I hope it informs you in your future endeavors.

2. Carl: Ahem. You knew better, but nonetheless, you did it.

3. Dante: Spot on.

4. Marcel: In all the years that MMM has existed, I never felt this way. Talk to the oldbies around here about my spats with Gene Ward Smith, a man who earned both my ire and my admiration: during all that I never felt this way. How do I feel? Fuck you. Your egocentric approach to a community of people who are both passionately devoted to non-12 musics, along with your film-thin knowledge of the subject matter is stunning to behold. No, really, fuck off. And then learn to share any great advancements in the history of music with a little humility and a lot more musicality.

I'm really sorry I had to say some of this, but it had to be said. I realize my participation has been low in the last year or two, but hope springs eternal. NONE of that changes how much I value this community, or how important I think it is. I get rankled occasionally, and my filters break down.

With any luck or divine intervention, I might be able to compose again in 2010.

Wishing all of you a perfectly tuned life,
Jon (ersatz ListMom)

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

Hi John,

4. Marcel: In all the years that MMM has existed, I never felt this way.
> Talk to the oldbies around here about my spats with Gene Ward Smith, a man
> who earned both my ire and my admiration: during all that I never felt this
> way. How do I feel? Fuck you. Your egocentric approach to a community of
> people who are both passionately devoted to non-12 musics, along with your
> film-thin knowledge of the subject matter is stunning to behold. No, really,
> fuck off. And then learn to share any great advancements in the history of
> music with a little humility and a lot more musicality.

Well you have a certain view on things, I have a different view on things.
I won't get into your remark about my knwoledge.
But about the recent discussion started by Aaron: I have a strong disliking
of Aaron and the way he behaves (right now towards Carl), has behaved, and
his untwelve organisation and how it has behaved (and think it's not worthy
of the name non-profit).
I see you take the side of Aaron, well that's your choice. It's not mine.
Other than that may I say I find it admirable that you have not banned me
seeing how you see things, my respect for this.

Marcel

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗jonszanto <jszanto@...>

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

Jon (speaking to Marcel)>"I hope you stick around, because I think you've got something to offer.
But if you insist on considering your take on things the tabula rasa of
tuning, and the Holy Grail of musical perfection, you've got a hell of a lot to learn."

I really wish, in general, all this talk about "how great someone is/isn't allowed to be" should stop. I would much rather think of it that we're all very primitive students in the largely un-explored art of possibilities that is tuning.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If someone thinks another person's ideas are flawed and/or other ideas are better, they always have the option of mentioning that without getting into the volatile issue of "does this person deserve to speak his/her mind so loudly?" This would also have the added effect of actually improving tunings, rather than just "helping" pick favorites among tuners (which isn't necessarily beneficial to the art of tuning itself).

>>>>
We are all here to further the art of tuning for its own sake (be it beginners, experts), and not to either justify our reputations and/or level down (or up) other people's to see who should have more right to speak, correct?
<<<<<

IMVHO, if we pick "people who do and don't deserve to contribute 'loudly' to tuning"...all we're going to end up with is a lot of angry people who could have given a lot to tuning give up because they are considered in many ways "not elite enough to be allowed to talk". If only the very best were allowed to speak the world would be virtually silent...

________________________________
From: jonszanto <jszanto@...>
To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, November 1, 2009 11:05:22 PM
Subject: Re: [MMM] A couple of thoughts from the founder of MMM

Marcel,

Once again you miss the point. I've known both Carl and Aaron for a long, long time, and I am referring to substantive issues, not "who I like" or "who I side with". You need to go out, buy a real strong magnet, and see if you can get a clue.

These inter-related lists contain a vast array of people, many of whom know a great deal about tuning, the history of music (as related to intonation) and a lot of other subjects. Your inability to come in here with anything approaching respect for the work that has been done over many years speaks volumes.

I hope you stick around, because I think you've got something to offer. But if you insist on considering your take on things the tabula rasa of tuning, and the Holy Grail of musical perfection, you've got a hell of a lot to learn.

Jon

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Dante Rosati <danterosati@...>

its not about flawed ideas or who knows more or less, its about attitude, in
particular the attitude of being an asshole. why should people have to put
up with an immature jerk in the name of political correctness? maybe what a
brat needs is a swift kick in the ass and the more you coddle him the more
you are encouraging his being a jerk.

On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 10:48 AM, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:

>
>
> Jon (speaking to Marcel)>"I hope you stick around, because I think you've
> got something to offer.
>
> But if you insist on considering your take on things the tabula rasa of
> tuning, and the Holy Grail of musical perfection, you've got a hell of a
> lot to learn."
>
> I really wish, in general, all this talk about "how great someone is/isn't
> allowed to be" should stop. I would much rather think of it that we're all
> very primitive students in the largely un-explored art of possibilities that
> is tuning.
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> If someone thinks another person's ideas are flawed and/or other ideas are
> better, they always have the option of mentioning that without getting into
> the volatile issue of "does this person deserve to speak his/her mind so
> loudly?" This would also have the added effect of actually improving
> tunings, rather than just "helping" pick favorites among tuners (which isn't
> necessarily beneficial to the art of tuning itself).
>
> >>>>
> We are all here to further the art of tuning for its own sake (be it
> beginners, experts), and not to either justify our reputations and/or level
> down (or up) other people's to see who should have more right to speak,
> correct?
> <<<<<
>
> IMVHO, if we pick "people who do and don't deserve to contribute 'loudly'
> to tuning"...all we're going to end up with is a lot of angry people who
> could have given a lot to tuning give up because they are considered in many
> ways "not elite enough to be allowed to talk". If only the very best were
> allowed to speak the world would be virtually silent...
>
> ________________________________
> From: jonszanto <jszanto@... <jszanto%40cox.net>>
> To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com <MakeMicroMusic%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sun, November 1, 2009 11:05:22 PM
> Subject: Re: [MMM] A couple of thoughts from the founder of MMM
>
>
> Marcel,
>
> Once again you miss the point. I've known both Carl and Aaron for a long,
> long time, and I am referring to substantive issues, not "who I like" or
> "who I side with". You need to go out, buy a real strong magnet, and see if
> you can get a clue.
>
> These inter-related lists contain a vast array of people, many of whom know
> a great deal about tuning, the history of music (as related to intonation)
> and a lot of other subjects. Your inability to come in here with anything
> approaching respect for the work that has been done over many years speaks
> volumes.
>
> I hope you stick around, because I think you've got something to offer. But
> if you insist on considering your take on things the tabula rasa of tuning,
> and the Holy Grail of musical perfection, you've got a hell of a lot to
> learn.
>
> Jon
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

Dante,

>"its about attitude, in particular the attitude of being an asshole...why should people have to put up with an immature jerk in the name of political correctness?"
They should not...but I didn't think that was at all the issue. Looking at the quote

Jon (speaking to Marcel)>"But if you insist on considering your take on things the tabula rasa of tuning"

it seems blatantly obvious to me that the issue here Jon has with Marcel is "my issue with you is that you're over-promoting yourself".
I have never once seen someone be called an "A.H." just for saying "I'm convinced my ideas are really good", regardless of how wrong said person could be...minus people trying to get money for their ideas.
And, even if someone blatantly disagree with the guy, don't you think it would be more mature for said person to attack flaws in his theory that make his work less than "the tabula rasa of tuning" and mark areas for improvement instead of flogging the guy for promoting what he sees as flawed ideas? What does that acheive anyhow?
It all seems to border on "knowticism" IE whoever knows more is more automatically entitled to having better morality (a pretty nasty ideal, IMVHO). It certainly is not like Marcel is name-calling, going off topic, taking credit for someone else's ideas that he already knows exist...or anything intentionally offensive.

Again, the way I view it is surely the tuning community has a lot more to gain from people gaining insight through which to improve their theories than calling people things like immature or worse without giving any path for improvement beside "don't try as hard" or even "slow down to make way for the 'real' experts".

________________________________
From: Dante Rosati <danterosati@...>
To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, November 2, 2009 10:04:20 AM
Subject: Re: [MMM] A couple of thoughts from the founder of MMM

On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 10:48 AM, Michael <djtrancendance@ yahoo.com> wrote:

>
>
> Jon (speaking to Marcel)>"I hope you stick around, because I think you've
> got something to offer.
>
> But if you insist on considering your take on things the tabula rasa of
> tuning, and the Holy Grail of musical perfection, you've got a hell of a
> lot to learn."
>
> I really wish, in general, all this talk about "how great someone is/isn't
> allowed to be" should stop. I would much rather think of it that we're all
> very primitive students in the largely un-explored art of possibilities that
> is tuning.
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
> If someone thinks another person's ideas are flawed and/or other ideas are
> better, they always have the option of mentioning that without getting into
> the volatile issue of "does this person deserve to speak his/her mind so
> loudly?" This would also have the added effect of actually improving
> tunings, rather than just "helping" pick favorites among tuners (which isn't
> necessarily beneficial to the art of tuning itself).
>
> >>>>
> We are all here to further the art of tuning for its own sake (be it
> beginners, experts), and not to either justify our reputations and/or level
> down (or up) other people's to see who should have more right to speak,
> correct?
> <<<<<
>
> IMVHO, if we pick "people who do and don't deserve to contribute 'loudly'
> to tuning"...all we're going to end up with is a lot of angry people who
> could have given a lot to tuning give up because they are considered in many
> ways "not elite enough to be allowed to talk". If only the very best were
> allowed to speak the world would be virtually silent...
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: jonszanto <jszanto@cox. net <jszanto%40cox. net>>
> To: MakeMicroMusic@ yahoogroups. com <MakeMicroMusic% 40yahoogroups. com>
> Sent: Sun, November 1, 2009 11:05:22 PM
> Subject: Re: [MMM] A couple of thoughts from the founder of MMM
>
>
> Marcel,
>
> Once again you miss the point. I've known both Carl and Aaron for a long,
> long time, and I am referring to substantive issues, not "who I like" or
> "who I side with". You need to go out, buy a real strong magnet, and see if
> you can get a clue.
>
> These inter-related lists contain a vast array of people, many of whom know
> a great deal about tuning, the history of music (as related to intonation)
> and a lot of other subjects. Your inability to come in here with anything
> approaching respect for the work that has been done over many years speaks
> volumes.
>
> I hope you stick around, because I think you've got something to offer. But
> if you insist on considering your take on things the tabula rasa of tuning,
> and the Holy Grail of musical perfection, you've got a hell of a lot to
> learn.
>
> Jon
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Dante Rosati <danterosati@...>

you're confusing two separate issues: one is his lack of knowledge,
which is never a sin, and the other is his attitude which is arrogant
and obnoxious. people have been very patient explaining to him the
basics, i only jumped in after he called Aaron a "drama queen". noone
is calling him an asshole for his lack of knowledge.

On Nov 2, 2009, at 11:38 AM, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:

> Dante,
>
> >"its about attitude, in particular the attitude of being an
> asshole...why should people have to put up with an immature jerk in
> the name of political correctness?"
> They should not...but I didn't think that was at all the issue.
> Looking at the quote
>
> Jon (speaking to Marcel)>"But if you insist on considering your take
> on things the tabula rasa of tuning"
>
> it seems blatantly obvious to me that the issue here Jon has with
> Marcel is "my issue with you is that you're over-promoting yourself".
> I have never once seen someone be called an "A.H." just for saying
> "I'm convinced my ideas are really good", regardless of how wrong
> said person could be...minus people trying to get money for their
> ideas.
> And, even if someone blatantly disagree with the guy, don't you
> think it would be more mature for said person to attack flaws in his
> theory that make his work less than "the tabula rasa of tuning" and
> mark areas for improvement instead of flogging the guy for promoting
> what he sees as flawed ideas? What does that acheive anyhow?
> It all seems to border on "knowticism" IE whoever knows more is more
> automatically entitled to having better morality (a pretty nasty
> ideal, IMVHO). It certainly is not like Marcel is name-calling,
> going off topic, taking credit for someone else's ideas that he
> already knows exist...or anything intentionally offensive.
>
> Again, the way I view it is surely the tuning community has a lot
> more to gain from people gaining insight through which to improve
> their theories than calling people things like immature or worse
> without giving any path for improvement beside "don't try as hard"
> or even "slow down to make way for the 'real' experts".
>
> ________________________________
> From: Dante Rosati <danterosati@...>
> To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Mon, November 2, 2009 10:04:20 AM
> Subject: Re: [MMM] A couple of thoughts from the founder of MMM
>
> its not about flawed ideas or who knows more or less, its about
> attitude, in
> particular the attitude of being an asshole. why should people have
> to put
> up with an immature jerk in the name of political correctness? maybe
> what a
> brat needs is a swift kick in the ass and the more you coddle him
> the more
> you are encouraging his being a jerk.
>
> On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 10:48 AM, Michael <djtrancendance@ yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Jon (speaking to Marcel)>"I hope you stick around, because I think
> you've
> > got something to offer.
> >
> > But if you insist on considering your take on things the tabula
> rasa of
> > tuning, and the Holy Grail of musical perfection, you've got a
> hell of a
> > lot to learn."
> >
> > I really wish, in general, all this talk about "how great someone
> is/isn't
> > allowed to be" should stop. I would much rather think of it that
> we're all
> > very primitive students in the largely un-explored art of
> possibilities that
> > is tuning.
> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
> > If someone thinks another person's ideas are flawed and/or other
> ideas are
> > better, they always have the option of mentioning that without
> getting into
> > the volatile issue of "does this person deserve to speak his/her
> mind so
> > loudly?" This would also have the added effect of actually improving
> > tunings, rather than just "helping" pick favorites among tuners
> (which isn't
> > necessarily beneficial to the art of tuning itself).
> >
> > >>>>
> > We are all here to further the art of tuning for its own sake (be it
> > beginners, experts), and not to either justify our reputations and/
> or level
> > down (or up) other people's to see who should have more right to
> speak,
> > correct?
> > <<<<<
> >
> > IMVHO, if we pick "people who do and don't deserve to contribute
> 'loudly'
> > to tuning"...all we're going to end up with is a lot of angry
> people who
> > could have given a lot to tuning give up because they are
> considered in many
> > ways "not elite enough to be allowed to talk". If only the very
> best were
> > allowed to speak the world would be virtually silent...
> >
> > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > From: jonszanto <jszanto@cox. net <jszanto%40cox. net>>
> > To: MakeMicroMusic@ yahoogroups. com <MakeMicroMusic%
> 40yahoogroups. com>
> > Sent: Sun, November 1, 2009 11:05:22 PM
> > Subject: Re: [MMM] A couple of thoughts from the founder of MMM
> >
> >
> > Marcel,
> >
> > Once again you miss the point. I've known both Carl and Aaron for
> a long,
> > long time, and I am referring to substantive issues, not "who I
> like" or
> > "who I side with". You need to go out, buy a real strong magnet,
> and see if
> > you can get a clue.
> >
> > These inter-related lists contain a vast array of people, many of
> whom know
> > a great deal about tuning, the history of music (as related to
> intonation)
> > and a lot of other subjects. Your inability to come in here with
> anything
> > approaching respect for the work that has been done over many
> years speaks
> > volumes.
> >
> > I hope you stick around, because I think you've got something to
> offer. But
> > if you insist on considering your take on things the tabula rasa
> of tuning,
> > and the Holy Grail of musical perfection, you've got a hell of a
> lot to
> > learn.
> >
> > Jon
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗jonszanto <jszanto@...>

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

Jon>"I'm all for pluralism. I'm all for an open exchange of ideas. Marcel
doesn't seem to be interested in that, but mostly wants to tell
everyone why he's found the best answer ever."
I still don't see how what he's doing isn't simply "open exchange of ideas", if annoying to some. What you've said seems to communicate "do whatever you like, but make sure you do it right" IE a sort of double-standard single true open-exchange is bound to have ideas which annoys a good few people if not the majority; that's the nature of the beast. Anything where the issue of popularity of ideas is involved in trying to make certain members "shut up more" isn't true open-exchange.

Yes I've seen him/Marcel post to multiple lists several time in the past and am sure you've given him warnings.
I don't see any problem with how you've warned him in and of itself (IE you've given him fair chance to correct what you see as his mistakes), but to see a problem in how it conflicts with the groups posted "mission statement" on it's homepage (IE the group policy does not say they are mistakes or provide reason to enforce against them to "promote the group's mission").
-------------------------
Though I have dished out this argument countless times on the tuning list I'll say it here: if you want there to be strict rules IE "if X person keeps on sending messages about ideas Y many people think are over-rated, that person's posting ability will be limited/moderated", you should also have the integrity to list it on the tuning/MMM homepage so people joining know that from the get go and it does not become "a rule only some people have to follow".
So, if there were such a rule posted on the homepage, I'd say you were justified, say, censoring him even upon his second mistake...but since there is no written rule and he's still on topic (if annoying, in your opinion), I don't see why he's guilty unless/until there is one posted.

My overall point: either this IS a restricted group or not: and that, IMVHO, should be made clear from the moment someone signs up for it. It can't be both a restricted and non-restrictive group (non-restrictive meaning anything is game, "wrong or right", so long as it stays on the topic of tuning and away from advertising commercial products/services).

________________________________
From: jonszanto <jszanto@...>
To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, November 2, 2009 11:56:17 AM
Subject: Re: [MMM] A couple of thoughts from the founder of MMM

Michael,

I'm not sure if you've followed the majority of Marcel's posts, but I do take issue with the substance and tone of them. However, the problem is a bit larger, which you may well be unaware of: he is doing this on more than the MMM list, so we get the same mostly-baseless arguments and pronouncements in multiple places. And he's been asked in much milder terms - by me, even! - without much of a change.

I'm all for pluralism. I'm all for an open exchange of ideas. Marcel doesn't seem to be interested in that, but mostly wants to tell everyone why he's found the best answer ever.

I spoke strongly, I realize. I don't do that on the first or second time around, believe me.

Regards,
Jon

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Dante Rosati <danterosati@...>

in what way?

On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 3:56 PM, Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@ozanyarman.com>wrote:

>
>
> Those words have mirror-like repercussions O Dante Rosati.
>
> Oz.
>
> ✩ ✩ ✩
> www.ozanyarman.com
>
>
> On Nov 2, 2009, at 6:04 PM, Dante Rosati wrote:
>
> > its not about flawed ideas or who knows more or less, its about
> > attitude, in
> > particular the attitude of being an asshole. why should people have
> > to put
> > up with an immature jerk in the name of political correctness? maybe
> > what a
> > brat needs is a swift kick in the ass and the more you coddle him
> > the more
> > you are encouraging his being a jerk.
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 10:48 AM, Michael <djtrancendance@...<djtrancendance%40yahoo.com>>
>
> > wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Jon (speaking to Marcel)>"I hope you stick around, because I think
> >> you've
> >> got something to offer.
> >>
> >> But if you insist on considering your take on things the tabula
> >> rasa of
> >> tuning, and the Holy Grail of musical perfection, you've got a hell
> >> of a
> >> lot to learn."
> >>
> >> I really wish, in general, all this talk about "how great someone
> >> is/isn't
> >> allowed to be" should stop. I would much rather think of it that
> >> we're all
> >> very primitive students in the largely un-explored art of
> >> possibilities that
> >> is tuning.
> >> ----------------------------------------------------------
> >> If someone thinks another person's ideas are flawed and/or other
> >> ideas are
> >> better, they always have the option of mentioning that without
> >> getting into
> >> the volatile issue of "does this person deserve to speak his/her
> >> mind so
> >> loudly?" This would also have the added effect of actually improving
> >> tunings, rather than just "helping" pick favorites among tuners
> >> (which isn't
> >> necessarily beneficial to the art of tuning itself).
> >>
> >>>>>>
> >> We are all here to further the art of tuning for its own sake (be it
> >> beginners, experts), and not to either justify our reputations and/
> >> or level
> >> down (or up) other people's to see who should have more right to
> >> speak,
> >> correct?
> >> <<<<<
> >>
> >> IMVHO, if we pick "people who do and don't deserve to contribute
> >> 'loudly'
> >> to tuning"...all we're going to end up with is a lot of angry
> >> people who
> >> could have given a lot to tuning give up because they are
> >> considered in many
> >> ways "not elite enough to be allowed to talk". If only the very
> >> best were
> >> allowed to speak the world would be virtually silent...
> >>
> >> ________________________________
> >> From: jonszanto <jszanto@... <jszanto%40cox.net> <jszanto%40cox.net
> >>
> >> To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com <MakeMicroMusic%40yahoogroups.com><MakeMicroMusic%
> 40yahoogroups.com>
>
> >> Sent: Sun, November 1, 2009 11:05:22 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [MMM] A couple of thoughts from the founder of MMM
> >>
> >>
> >> Marcel,
> >>
> >> Once again you miss the point. I've known both Carl and Aaron for a
> >> long,
> >> long time, and I am referring to substantive issues, not "who I
> >> like" or
> >> "who I side with". You need to go out, buy a real strong magnet,
> >> and see if
> >> you can get a clue.
> >>
> >> These inter-related lists contain a vast array of people, many of
> >> whom know
> >> a great deal about tuning, the history of music (as related to
> >> intonation)
> >> and a lot of other subjects. Your inability to come in here with
> >> anything
> >> approaching respect for the work that has been done over many years
> >> speaks
> >> volumes.
> >>
> >> I hope you stick around, because I think you've got something to
> >> offer. But
> >> if you insist on considering your take on things the tabula rasa of
> >> tuning,
> >> and the Holy Grail of musical perfection, you've got a hell of a
> >> lot to
> >> learn.
> >>
> >> Jon
> >>
> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

They can be construed to apply to anyone who retaliates with
intolerance, hatred and insults to effrontery.

If conduct and manners are in question, so are yours along with those
who have reverted to swear words against the unfortunate provocations
of Marcel de Velde (whose demeaning attitude I do not approve).

Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

On Nov 2, 2009, at 11:33 PM, Dante Rosati wrote:

> in what way?
>
> On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 3:56 PM, Ozan Yarman
> <ozanyarman@...>wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Those words have mirror-like repercussions O Dante Rosati.
>>
>> Oz.
>>
>> ✩ ✩ ✩
>> www.ozanyarman.com
>>
>>
>> On Nov 2, 2009, at 6:04 PM, Dante Rosati wrote:
>>
>>> its not about flawed ideas or who knows more or less, its about
>>> attitude, in
>>> particular the attitude of being an asshole. why should people have
>>> to put
>>> up with an immature jerk in the name of political correctness? maybe
>>> what a
>>> brat needs is a swift kick in the ass and the more you coddle him
>>> the more
>>> you are encouraging his being a jerk.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 10:48 AM, Michael
>>> <djtrancendance@...<djtrancendance%40yahoo.com>>
>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jon (speaking to Marcel)>"I hope you stick around, because I think
>>>> you've
>>>> got something to offer.
>>>>
>>>> But if you insist on considering your take on things the tabula
>>>> rasa of
>>>> tuning, and the Holy Grail of musical perfection, you've got a hell
>>>> of a
>>>> lot to learn."
>>>>
>>>> I really wish, in general, all this talk about "how great someone
>>>> is/isn't
>>>> allowed to be" should stop. I would much rather think of it that
>>>> we're all
>>>> very primitive students in the largely un-explored art of
>>>> possibilities that
>>>> is tuning.
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>>> If someone thinks another person's ideas are flawed and/or other
>>>> ideas are
>>>> better, they always have the option of mentioning that without
>>>> getting into
>>>> the volatile issue of "does this person deserve to speak his/her
>>>> mind so
>>>> loudly?" This would also have the added effect of actually
>>>> improving
>>>> tunings, rather than just "helping" pick favorites among tuners
>>>> (which isn't
>>>> necessarily beneficial to the art of tuning itself).
>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>> We are all here to further the art of tuning for its own sake (be
>>>> it
>>>> beginners, experts), and not to either justify our reputations and/
>>>> or level
>>>> down (or up) other people's to see who should have more right to
>>>> speak,
>>>> correct?
>>>> <<<<<
>>>>
>>>> IMVHO, if we pick "people who do and don't deserve to contribute
>>>> 'loudly'
>>>> to tuning"...all we're going to end up with is a lot of angry
>>>> people who
>>>> could have given a lot to tuning give up because they are
>>>> considered in many
>>>> ways "not elite enough to be allowed to talk". If only the very
>>>> best were
>>>> allowed to speak the world would be virtually silent...
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: jonszanto <jszanto@... <jszanto%40cox.net> <jszanto
>>>> %40cox.net
>>>>
>>>> To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com <MakeMicroMusic
>>>> %40yahoogroups.com><MakeMicroMusic%
>> 40yahoogroups.com>
>>
>>>> Sent: Sun, November 1, 2009 11:05:22 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [MMM] A couple of thoughts from the founder of MMM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Marcel,
>>>>
>>>> Once again you miss the point. I've known both Carl and Aaron for a
>>>> long,
>>>> long time, and I am referring to substantive issues, not "who I
>>>> like" or
>>>> "who I side with". You need to go out, buy a real strong magnet,
>>>> and see if
>>>> you can get a clue.
>>>>
>>>> These inter-related lists contain a vast array of people, many of
>>>> whom know
>>>> a great deal about tuning, the history of music (as related to
>>>> intonation)
>>>> and a lot of other subjects. Your inability to come in here with
>>>> anything
>>>> approaching respect for the work that has been done over many years
>>>> speaks
>>>> volumes.
>>>>
>>>> I hope you stick around, because I think you've got something to
>>>> offer. But
>>>> if you insist on considering your take on things the tabula rasa of
>>>> tuning,
>>>> and the Holy Grail of musical perfection, you've got a hell of a
>>>> lot to
>>>> learn.
>>>>
>>>> Jon
>>>>
>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

Thank you Marcel, for admitting/showing that violent outbursts is not
the code nor the solution to the problems of the tuning community.

Cordially,
Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

On Nov 2, 2009, at 11:51 PM, Marcel de Velde wrote:

> Hi Oz,
>
>> They can be construed to apply to anyone who retaliates with
>> intolerance, hatred and insults to effrontery.
>>
>> If conduct and manners are in question, so are yours along with those
>> who have reverted to swear words against the unfortunate provocations
>> of Marcel de Velde (whose demeaning attitude I do not approve).
>>
>
> Wisely spoken.
> And you made me see that my respons to Aaron's (and others) fury
> towards
> Carl was not done in the right way. Thank you for this.
> I do feel I had the right, perhaps even obligation to speak out> against the
> injustice I saw, but I should have taken the effort to do so in a
> respectfull manner even to those whose anger I was speaking out> against.
>
> Kind regards,
> Marcel
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

Hi Michael,

> And, even if someone blatantly disagree with the guy, don't you think it
> would be more mature for said person to attack flaws in his theory that make
> his work less than "the tabula rasa of tuning" and mark areas for
> improvement instead of flogging the guy for promoting what he sees as flawed
> ideas?
>

Thank you!
Indeed this is what I personally belief is done way too less on these lists.
I try to do it myself in theories of others, and hope other will do thesame
with me.
To attack flaws in theories is a constructive thing I think.

I did indeed overpromote things.
I am sorry for this. Especially for posting things many times only to
discover my own flaws later.
I didn't do this by choice, it was my own struggle with my theories and I
was not insightfull enough to realise what a bumpy ride I was on.
I had a lot of personal emotions riding on it and was again unsighfull
enough and uncapable enough to hold these in.
Again my apologies to this list and the tuning list for the overflow of
messages comming from me in the past.
I hope people realise it was not in bad intent, but that it was out of
passion and internal struggle.
This period is over now though I'm glad to say.
But I realise it will take a while for people to normalise again to me.

My overall point: either this IS a restricted group or not: and that, IMVHO,
> should be made clear from the moment someone signs up for it. It can't be
> both a restricted and non-restrictive group (non-restrictive meaning
> anything is game, "wrong or right", so long as it stays on the topic of
> tuning and away from advertising commercial products/services).

Ah yes I very much agree it should be this way.
Thesame goes for the tuning list.
I personally felt it was wrong for a non-moderated list, where people signed
up for a non moderated list, for this list to suddenly become moderated.
I feel the right way would have been to set up a seperate list that would be
moderated from the beginning.
But I also see that little in the real world holds to strict ethics. It
simply isn't how the world works.
Perhaps the way evolution works, and the right of the strongest are a form
of ethics in themselves too.
The way these lists work seem to be a combination of both. I've learned to
see it that way anyhow and can live with that.

Anyhow, thank you Michael for beeing one of the reasonable people with a
good heart out here.

Kind regards,
Marcel

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

🔗jonszanto <jszanto@...>

Marcel,

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...> wrote:

> I did indeed overpromote things.
> I am sorry for this. Especially for posting things many times only to
> discover my own flaws later.
> I didn't do this by choice, it was my own struggle with my theories and I
> was not insightfull enough to realise what a bumpy ride I was on.
> I had a lot of personal emotions riding on it and was again unsighfull
> enough and uncapable enough to hold these in.
> Again my apologies to this list and the tuning list for the overflow of
> messages comming from me in the past.
> I hope people realise it was not in bad intent, but that it was out of
> passion and internal struggle.
> This period is over now though I'm glad to say.
> But I realise it will take a while for people to normalise again to me.

It won't take me any more than a couple nanoseconds: Marcel, those words can't have been easy to write, and while I certainly could accept an apology, I think that one really isn't necessary. You stated very well how all of this flowed from you; I'm sure that anyone who has been on this list long enough can point out a couple times where I let my passion get the best of me. We are, after all, only human.

I was completely sincere in my desire to have you continue - if nothing else, the production and creation of new microtonal music needs passionate advocates, and you assuredly fit that bill! I'm hoping that with this 'clearing of the air', we can take a moment to reflect, and all return to the matter at hand: placing notes and sounds in such a way, in such a time, that it enhances the life of anyone who cares to hear it.

You have my apologies, as does the list, for any over-the-top and florid incantations in previous posts.

Regards,
Jon

🔗prentrodgers <prentrodgers@...>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

🔗hstraub64 <straub@...>

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

🔗touchedchuckk <BadMuthaHubbard@...>

Two tears in a bucket.

-Chuckk (it)

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "jonszanto" <jszanto@...> wrote:
>
> (Yeah, I played *that* card...)
>
> 1. AKJ: Nicely done. And good that it was done. We all learn from these things, and I hope it informs you in your future endeavors.
>
> 2. Carl: Ahem. You knew better, but nonetheless, you did it.
>
> 3. Dante: Spot on.
>
> 4. Marcel: In all the years that MMM has existed, I never felt this way. Talk to the oldbies around here about my spats with Gene Ward Smith, a man who earned both my ire and my admiration: during all that I never felt this way. How do I feel? Fuck you. Your egocentric approach to a community of people who are both passionately devoted to non-12 musics, along with your film-thin knowledge of the subject matter is stunning to behold. No, really, fuck off. And then learn to share any great advancements in the history of music with a little humility and a lot more musicality.
>
> I'm really sorry I had to say some of this, but it had to be said. I realize my participation has been low in the last year or two, but hope springs eternal. NONE of that changes how much I value this community, or how important I think it is. I get rankled occasionally, and my filters break down.
>
> With any luck or divine intervention, I might be able to compose again in 2010.
>
> Wishing all of you a perfectly tuned life,
> Jon (ersatz ListMom)
>

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

Joe Szanto> "4. Marcel: In all the years that MMM has existed, I never felt
this way. Talk to the oldbies around here about my spats with Gene Ward Smith,
a man who earned both my ire and my admiration: during all that I never
felt this way. How do I feel? Fuck you. Your egocentric approach to a
community of people who are both passionately devoted to non-12 musics,
along with your film-thin knowledge of the subject matter is stunning
to behold. No, really, fuck off. And then learn to share any great
advancements in the history of music with a little humility and a lot
more musicality."

Why all the hate? Now I'm hearing "F-you" on this list among members?! That's pretty sad, man.

Personally I think Marcel has made a LOT of progress in tuning (his harmonic JI in particular sounds much better than any of his previous theories and, IMVHO, significantly better than 12TET). ....And his "egocentricity" can just as easily be explained as honest, if overshot in some people's opinions, approach to the art. I've been in the same boat...the fact is neither him, nor myself, nor virtually anyone else are getting paid and/or famous for our efforts.

It is common knowledge that those who want fame and money are much better off doing 12TET music, publicity stunts for the media, signing with major labels, performing in orchestras, movies, on broadway, etc. ...than doing anything that's been done on this list or micro-tonallity as a whole. If you (or anyone else) honestly think the guy is doing all the work he does to please his ego, it just shows how out of touch you are with the point of this list.
-------------------------------------------------------------
On the flip side, I recently started a few topics concerning micro-tonal scales and artists that could help introduce micro-tonal music in a positive like to the general public...but both threads, while very honestly intended, failed miserably to generate much response. Yet hate mail, apparently, does generate a response here.

Again, I swear the elitism here (including elitism in the form of people calling people putting honest work toward microtonality "stupid" or "egotistical"), this time around in the case of Marcel, is not helping the development of micro-tonal music at all.

-Michael

________________________________
From: touchedchuckk <BadMuthaHubbard@...>
To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, November 10, 2009 5:06:45 PM
Subject: [MMM] Re: A couple of thoughts from the founder of MMM

Two tears in a bucket.

-Chuckk (it)

--- In MakeMicroMusic@ yahoogroups. com, "jonszanto" <jszanto@... > wrote:
>
> (Yeah, I played *that* card...)
>
> 1. AKJ: Nicely done. And good that it was done. We all learn from these things, and I hope it informs you in your future endeavors.
>
> 2. Carl: Ahem. You knew better, but nonetheless, you did it.
>
> 3. Dante: Spot on.
>
> 4. Marcel: In all the years that MMM has existed, I never felt this way. Talk to the oldbies around here about my spats with Gene Ward Smith, a man who earned both my ire and my admiration: during all that I never felt this way. How do I feel? Fuck you. Your egocentric approach to a community of people who are both passionately devoted to non-12 musics, along with your film-thin knowledge of the subject matter is stunning to behold. No, really, fuck off. And then learn to share any great advancements in the history of music with a little humility and a lot more musicality.
>
> I'm really sorry I had to say some of this, but it had to be said. I realize my participation has been low in the last year or two, but hope springs eternal. NONE of that changes how much I value this community, or how important I think it is. I get rankled occasionally, and my filters break down.
>
> With any luck or divine intervention, I might be able to compose again in 2010.
>
> Wishing all of you a perfectly tuned life,
> Jon (ersatz ListMom)
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

🔗jonszanto <jszanto@...>

🔗hstraub64 <straub@...>

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

Hans>"1) If something happens to you once, no need to worry. But if something
happens to you again and again, in different places, you might waste a
little time on the question whether it is REALLY every time the others'
fault?"

I felt this necessary to comment on because some people, no matter how honest and positive their effort, are viewed badly often simply because they are weird. I would give Marcel as a prime example here and myself as well. There are some people who just aren't popular...and, IMVHO, they should not have to lie about their intentions (IE say they are worse then they actually are) just to get people to stop bullying them.
I've found, when people feel they can give huge positive efforts and have those efforts consistently taken as negative, they eventually quit and thus give the bully the satisfaction of making them leave. And I don't consider that a helpful outcome...even on this list I've seen many innovators get thrown out for little more than a few tiny "unprofessional" errors in their work and the fact they weren't accepted as "for real" micro-tonalists....and that's pretty sad for a so called (open-to-all) group.
*******************************************************************************************************

>"3) If somebody appears as a jerk to you, it is usally wise not to kick
him in the ass. Maybe he is a jerk and deserves being kicked in the ass
- but as soon as that happens, he will scream: "He does not have the
right to call me a jerk - he kicked me in the ass, he is a jerk
himself!" Which will not be totally wrong."

Sounds great, but, far as forum issues (as other types of bullying) I've find bullies tend to target
A) People who give them a huge reaction IE call them "a-holes" back and, as you've said, make themselves to an extent jerks also by doing so (as you just said).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"2) It takes at least two people for a fight. If everyone says that the other has to stop first, it never stops."

B) People who simply don't fight back IE ignore them or, worse, say "oh I'm so sorry" and give up most or all influence. AKA people who don't respect themselves. You may think that not fighting back helps...until you figure out said person who has started it has gained others respect for being "a leader" and "keeping things clean" whereas you could have well had something decent, if not great, to contribute and find yourself censored out as "not strongly smart, hard working, and determined enough".
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My personal opinion is that there is a middle ground for confronting online flames, which is something along the lines of saying "Why on earth are you doing this? Who do you think you are helping?...I/she/he certainly doesn't deserve this" without resorting to name calling back. There's a huge difference between saying, for example, even "F you" and "What the F?...although cursing in general doesn't help.

But it's a crying shame the Soon contest, for example, died down in such a bad light and so many people, apparently, complained about it who did not participate (IE they gave complaints but failed to even vaguely offer positive solutions). Same goes for my own threads about the best consonant micro-tonal scales / artist to help introduce micro-tonality to the masses (I maybe got 2 responses from that), Ozan's "Saba Storm" scale/tuning description response, and other, I still believe "could have been incredibly useful if so many people weren't (apparently) too proud to take them seriously" threads.

________________________________
From: hstraub64 <straub@datacomm.ch>
To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, November 12, 2009 7:10:47 AM
Subject: [MMM] Re: A couple of thoughts from the founder of MMM

I have to say I am starting to lose my patience, too. This has been discussed many, MANY times.

May I suggest the following thoughts:

1) If something happens to you once, no need to worry. But if something happens to you again and again, in different places, you might waste a little time on the question whether it is REALLY every time the others' fault?

2) It takes at least two people for a fight. If everyone says that the other has to stop first, it never stops.

3) If somebody appears as a jerk to you, it is usally wise not to kick him in the ass. Maybe he is a jerk and deserves being kicked in the ass - but as soon as that happens, he will scream: "He does not have the right to call me a jerk - he kicked me in the ass, he is a jerk himself!" Which will not be totally wrong.

All this, I would say, is common sense and has been known for years, actually at least since the internet exists...
--
Hans Straub

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]