Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup makemicromusic Re: [MMM] judge's notes: unabridged feedback on your compositions

you impotent bullies

neither of you have any right to say any thing about anybody. you are both the lowest scum i have ever ran accross on the intrnet.
you have done nothing and you have nothing to say and are incapable of understandingc anything.

/^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere: North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

a momentary antenna as i turn to water
this evaporates - an island once again

Mike Battaglia wrote:
> >
> > 7- Torsten Anders, UK
> > Hi AKJ. I'm not going to lie to you man, this isn't your best
> > work.
>
> Hahaha... that was funny.
>
> >
> > 9- Warren Summers, Australia
> > [expletive deleted]
>
> You didn't like this one, huh? I'm listening to it now... nice and
> atonal and ambient.
>
> -Mike
>
>

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

Uh, thanks? Not sure how you got that from my post.

-Mike

On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 5:34 AM, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>wrote:

>
>
> you impotent bullies
>
> neither of you have any right to say any thing about anybody. you are
> both the lowest scum i have ever ran accross on the intrnet.
> you have done nothing and you have nothing to say and are incapable of
> understandingc anything.
>
> /^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
> Mesotonal Music from:
> _'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
>
> _'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
> Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>
>
> ',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',
>
> a momentary antenna as i turn to water
> this evaporates - an island once again
>
>
> Mike Battaglia wrote:
> >
> >
> > > 7- Torsten Anders, UK
> > > Hi AKJ. I'm not going to lie to you man, this isn't your best
> > > work.
> >
> > Hahaha... that was funny.
> >
> > >
> > > 9- Warren Summers, Australia
> > > [expletive deleted]
> >
> > You didn't like this one, huh? I'm listening to it now... nice and
> > atonal and ambient.
> >
> > -Mike
> >
> >
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

Hahaha... I was gonna leave it at that, but I can't stop laughing at this.
That really might have been the most epic flame I've ever seen in my life. I
have done nothing, have nothing to say, and I'm incapable of understanding
anything.

Kraig, chill out a bit and read the thread again... you got lost somewhere
in there, buddy.

-Mike

On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 5:34 AM, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>wrote:

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

you are so helpless you think it is fine that carl broadcast this judgement. did the people who submit to the competition agree to such public comments?
you don't care and think this is fine conduct toward fellow artist.
If it OK why did the post get omitted?

^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere: North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

a momentary antenna as i turn to water
this evaporates - an island once again

Mike Battaglia wrote:
> >
> Hahaha... I was gonna leave it at that, but I can't stop laughing at this.
> That really might have been the most epic flame I've ever seen in my > life. I
> have done nothing, have nothing to say, and I'm incapable of understanding
> anything.
>
> Kraig, chill out a bit and read the thread again... you got lost somewhere
> in there, buddy.
>
> -Mike
>
> On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 5:34 AM, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@anaphori a.com > <mailto:kraiggrady%40anaphoria.com>>wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > you impotent bullies
> >
> > neither of you have any right to say any thing about anybody. you are
> > both the lowest scum i have ever ran accross on the intrnet.
> > you have done nothing and you have nothing to say and are incapable of
> > understandingc anything.
> >
> > /^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
> > Mesotonal Music from:
> > _'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
> > North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria. com/ > <http://anaphoria.com/>>
> >
> > _'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
> > Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasou th.blogspot. > com/ <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>>
> >
> > ',',',',',', ',',',',' ,',',',', ',',',',' ,',',',', ',',',',' ,
> >
> > a momentary antenna as i turn to water
> > this evaporates - an island once again
> >
> >
> > Mike Battaglia wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > > 7- Torsten Anders, UK
> > > > Hi AKJ. I'm not going to lie to you man, this isn't your best
> > > > work.
> > >
> > > Hahaha... that was funny.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > 9- Warren Summers, Australia
> > > > [expletive deleted]
> > >
> > > You didn't like this one, huh? I'm listening to it now... nice and
> > > atonal and ambient.
> > >
> > > -Mike
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

>you are so helpless you think it is fine that carl broadcast this
>judgement. did the people who submit to the competition agree to such
>public comments?
>you don't care and think this is fine conduct toward fellow artist.
>If it OK why did the post get omitted?

I will address some general points on this subject in a future post.
For now I will say that any observer of art, of any skill level or
walk of life, is entitled to levy his or her opinion, and any artist
of true intent must respect this. It is generally accepted that
criticism should be constructive, but what is constructive or not
is open to debate. To imply that one must have a certain degree of
accomplishment to consume art is akin to saying that one must have a
certain type of training to produce it.

I deleted the post at AKJ's request. In any cooperative endeavor,
there is a balance between individual expression and group solidarity.
I am willing to admit I struck this balance wrongly in this case.
Nevertheless I hope this does not discourage the other judges from
sharing their thoughts and reactions, nor indeed anyone who may now
hear all ten submissions at the link provided.

-Carl

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

I don't know what you're talking about or where you think you get the right
to talk to me that way. I quoted two posts by Carl: the first one where he
assumed that he knew that a composer was AKJ, when it was really Torsten. I
found it funny that he was so far off the mark with his guess. The second
was one where Carl said he thought a composition was "s**t" or something. I
responded saying that I liked it, and that I found it to be atonal, ambient,
etc.

But the truth is that I shouldn't really have to spell this out for you,
since you are perfectly capable of going into the thread and reading it for
yourself.

-Mike

On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 8:17 AM, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>wrote:

>
>
> you are so helpless you think it is fine that carl broadcast this
> judgement. did the people who submit to the competition agree to such
> public comments?
> you don't care and think this is fine conduct toward fellow artist.
> If it OK why did the post get omitted?
>
>
> ^_,',',',_
> Mesotonal Music from:
> _'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
>
> _'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
> Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>
>
> ',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',
>
> a momentary antenna as i turn to water
> this evaporates - an island once again
>
> Mike Battaglia wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hahaha... I was gonna leave it at that, but I can't stop laughing at
> this.
> > That really might have been the most epic flame I've ever seen in my
> > life. I
> > have done nothing, have nothing to say, and I'm incapable of
> understanding
> > anything.
> >
> > Kraig, chill out a bit and read the thread again... you got lost
> somewhere
> > in there, buddy.
> >
> > -Mike
> >
> > On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 5:34 AM, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@anaphori a.com
> > <mailto:kraiggrady%40anaphoria.com <kraiggrady%2540anaphoria.com>
> >>wrote:
>
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > you impotent bullies
> > >
> > > neither of you have any right to say any thing about anybody. you are
> > > both the lowest scum i have ever ran accross on the intrnet.
> > > you have done nothing and you have nothing to say and are incapable of
> > > understandingc anything.
> > >
> > > /^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
> > > Mesotonal Music from:
> > > _'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
> > > North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria. com/
> > <http://anaphoria.com/>>
> > >
> > > _'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
> > > Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasou th.blogspot.
> > com/ <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>>
>
> > >
> > > ',',',',',', ',',',',' ,',',',', ',',',',' ,',',',', ',',',',' ,
> > >
> > > a momentary antenna as i turn to water
> > > this evaporates - an island once again
> > >
> > >
> > > Mike Battaglia wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > 7- Torsten Anders, UK
> > > > > Hi AKJ. I'm not going to lie to you man, this isn't your best
> > > > > work.
> > > >
> > > > Hahaha... that was funny.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 9- Warren Summers, Australia
> > > > > [expletive deleted]
> > > >
> > > > You didn't like this one, huh? I'm listening to it now... nice and
> > > > atonal and ambient.
> > > >
> > > > -Mike
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗gdsecor <gdsecor@...>

I'm responding to two related messages:

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
> [msg. #21336: judge's notes: unabridged feedback on your compositions]
>
> At 07:35 PM 10/30/2009, you wrote:
> >Could George Secor's entry be classified as "old school microtonalism"?
> >
> >The new generation is enticed by punch and effect perhaps?
>
> Petr's (winning) piece was of a similar ilk, and I liked it too,
> but I thought George's piece was stronger and it wasn't even a
> runner-up.
>
> -Carl

I generally take time off from the internet on weekends, so I didn't get to see Carl's infamous judge's notes, but I did see Carl's response (quoted above in its entirety) to another message (also since deleted, originator not identified) in which my piece was mentioned.

Thanks, Carl, for your appreciation of my efforts; in particular, I thought you might like the chord progressions in the introduction and ending. Did you notice that, unlike either Petr's or Donald Craig's entries (the two others that might be characterized, at least in part, as "old school"), my piece does not contain even a single dominant-to-tonic chord sequence? (Anyway, I would have voted Petr's piece the winner.)

Before the results were announced, I emailed my piece and, when it became available, the link to the judges' page to a couple of musicians, a microtonal friend and a non-microtonal relative (after having extracted a promise from each that this was privileged information that should not be shared with anyone outside their immediate families). We had a lot of fun listening to the pieces and making comments about them, but in the end we were all perplexed that my piece had not made it into the finals, so I was hoping that some sort of feedback from the judges might eventually be made available, at least to the entrants.

However, that's not my reason for writing this -- read on.

Winning the contest would have been nice, of course, but the real reason I entered the competition was simply to make it onto the CD of the top 10 finalists -- for a very specific reason.

As it turned out, there were only 10 qualifying entries in all, so assuming that all 10 would automatically be on the CD, I figured that just by qualifying, my mission was already accomplished. Then, when I found out that I hadn't made the finals (the top 5, too few, I would think, for a CD), I was at first delighted to learn that there were 5 entries judged to be better than mine, because I wanted to arrange for a local classical radio station to receive a complimentary copy, hoping that they might play some of the tracks and thereby generate some interest in microtonal music (and figuring that having a local composer on the CD might improve the chances of that happening).

However after hearing some of the tracks, I started thinking that sending a CD might be counterproductive. Why? I think Carl hit the nail on the head:

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
> [msg. #21366: an apology from UnTwelve]
>
> ... It is of course much harder to make
> music while having to invent instruments and scales along the way,
> but eventually microtonal music will have to compete with real
> music in terms of effectively communicating with the listener.
> Sadly, much microtonal music utterly fails to do so. I don't have
> any magic way to make talking about it easier.
>
> -Carl

Exactly what is this "real" music that we're competing with? Certainly not the serialism, or numerous other -isms of "serious" music hung over from the _avant-garde_, intelligible only to the select few who expend the time & effort to comprehend. Real music is music that is able to compete in the musical marketplace (dare I mention "pop" music?), because it's capable of being appreciated, to at least some degree, by a general audience. Of course, study will always increase the depth of one's comprehension of the composer's techniques, but that's true of any music or art, and it's certainly not essential for the listener to be able to discern that a piece has "something to say" and/or evokes specific emotions. And it never hurts that a piece might have a catchy melody, exotic harmonies, and a clearly identifiable meter (duh! does anyone remember Music 101: the elements of music are melody, harmony, & rhythm :-)), and perhaps is sculpted according to one of those tried-and-true musical forms we learned about in a theory class -- and perhaps playable on real (acoustic) instruments.

Let's face it: "serious" music has long had serious problems, and the solution is not in writing music that's overly convoluted in order to establish one's creditials as "serious" in order to be accepted by an academic establishment. Microtonality solves the problem of the exhausted resources of the conventional 12-equal major-minor harmonic system, and it takes us a giant step beyond ordinary "pop" music and, if one chooses, to pick up from where the romantic period and non-atonal 20th-century composers left off. When our game isn't working for us, perhaps we need to revisit our "old school".

Let's not be ashamed to write in musical styles that are understood in the "real" world. With a little time, effort, and ingenuity, we might actually be able to compete with what's already out there.

--George

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

Hi George,

>Thanks, Carl, for your appreciation of my efforts; in particular, I
>thought you might like the chord progressions in the introduction and
>ending. Did you notice that, unlike either Petr's or Donald Craig's
>entries (the two others that might be characterized, at least in part,
>as "old school"), my piece does not contain even a single
>dominant-to-tonic chord sequence?

Here are my comments on the three pieces:

10- George Secor, USA
Ah, who is this? Color me impressed. Simple arrangement of
simple ideas, but it's cohesive, it makes sense, and it's
perhaps the only piece here that could truly be called effective.
The only mar is the failure to let the final hit ring a bit
longer -- take it easy with the fader. +3

4- Petr Parizek, Czech Republic
Herman Miller or Petr Parizek, that is the question. I'm going
to go with Herman. Too much reverb, and a bit aimless in
structure. But very pretty, and a few nice orchestration
touches. +1

8- Donald Craig, USA
OK, this must be Petr. +2

I'll add that I really liked the contrasty A-B structure of
Donald's piece.

>Exactly what is this "real" music that we're competing with?

I think we're talking the same language, but I'll clarify just
in case. There are a ton of excellent, hard-working musicians
who have loyal audiences, from whom the proceeds of CDs and live
performances constitute a living wage. The other week on the
phone with AKJ I brought up Charlie Hunter. Just one of a
thousand examples that could be named. Heck, even Phish are
playing again (though certainly not at their best).

>Real music is music that is able to compete in the musical
>marketplace (dare I mention "pop" music?),

Pop may connote a genre in and of itself. I was referring to
working musicians of any genre, including pop (most quality
pop is "indie" these days), jazz, electronica, rock, a few
neoclassicists scattered around places like this list. . .

>because it's capable of being appreciated, to at least some
>degree, by a general audience.

I shutter at the term "general audience". The CD revolution of
the 1990s and mp3 revolution of the present decade made music
connoisseurs in every genre. The most esoteric electronic
forms are now quasi-popular in places like Brooklyn and LA, and
some mind-bending work has been done (I can't help constantly
returning to Googleplex / Astroid Power-Up / Scott Bruzenak,
which was even microtonal! ...no pressure, Scott!)

-Carl

PS- Just two incredible and virtually unknown artists I found
while working at Keyboard magazine:
http://www.myspace.com/briancharette1
http://www.joedeveau.com/
Oo, don't forget:
http://droptrio.com/
Gotta love Austin! (Hi Danny W.)

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

I wrote:
>I shutter at the term "general audience". The CD revolution of
>the 1990s and mp3 revolution of the present decade made music
>connoisseurs in every genre.

To clarify, I do agree with George that xenharmony solves the
resource exhaustion problem in neoclassical music. But I want
to stress that while having consonant chords or catchy lyrics
may still be the key to the largest possible audiences, niche
audiences have grown so that one no longer needs the catchy
stuff to earn a living. What hasn't changed is the need to have
something to say, and the clarity/chops/willpower to express it
musically.

Another thing worth mentioning is that for electronica at least,
microtonal music is already competing (and winning IMO!) against
standard music (my favorite eletronic artists are Marcus Hobbs
and the aforementioned Astroid Power-Up). That's perhaps
understandable since it's a genre native to the computer, which
offers the needed tuning flexibility. The kinds of patterns
typically used in this music also readily avail themselves to
microtonal tunings. But hopefully it's only a matter of time
before other genres succumb as well.

-Carl

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

Carl> "I shutter at the term "general audience". The CD revolution of the 1990s and mp3 revolution of the present decade made music connoisseurs in every genre."

One thing I have noticed indeed, is that more genres and styles have reached the public ear and, thanks to the internet, fans of fringe genres can finally find plenty of music to satisfy their needs.

The tricky thing I have noticed though, is how few fans I've seen of micro-tonal even compared to genre's as odd as the Gabber and/or Noise genres.

True, micro-tonalists in niche styles can make a living, but can you walk into a group of even 30 people and be able to talk or gossip with one socially about micro-tonal music? Sadly, the chances are very slim...and that annoys me a bit.
*******************************************************************
..."(my favorite eletronic artists are Marcus Hobbs and the aforementioned Astroid Power-Up)."

+1000 for Marcus Hobbs AKA Marcus Satellite. He's big on Wilson's 6-note tunings, which are, IMVHO, as or more consonant than 12TET while adding extra sparkle. Carl, I know you said "niche
audiences have grown so that one no longer needs the catchy stuff to earn a living"...but, even better I believe, is the reality of micro-tonalists who can combine catchy-ness and consonance with niche-like deviance. You can tell a song is his incredibly quickly.

Also, unlike many micro-tonalists, Marcus does not skimp on the imagination or complexity of his beats or arrangement...doing full-on layered break-beats, arpeggios, pulsating custom-made pads, fluffy smooth filters, tantalizing female vocals, and all sorts of other tricks you'd expect from a world-class dance musician (right up there with groups like Way Out West and BT)...and lets them emotionally decorate music in the same way, say, saxophone vibrato decorates jazz music expression.
This makes for epic music in every sense of the word. Another note, the music flows...and so well you can very easily dance to it: a huge plus because DJs (myself included) can actually get away with playing it without getting a "what the heck" response from the audience.
****************************************************************
Another side of the "general audience" issue, I believe, is the issue of creating a good list of scales that can compete directly with 12TET consonance-wise while sounding different enough to strike listeners as new territory. Here are some of my favorites
A) Wilson's "Hexany" scale (I believe that's the name, but it's a 6-tone scale Marcus uses a lot)

B) Ozan's Maqam-like scale used in "Saba Storm" (Ozan, please do us a favor and post this scale!)

C) Wendy Carlos's Alpha scale as often used by Sean Archibald (who, IMVHO, isn't far behind Marcus Satellite)

D) Marcel's latest "Harmonic-JI" scale...which takes advantage of
u-tonal relationships and will likely fit the bill for very well those
who like the sound of extensive minor chords and inversions. This is
(finally) one scale he's made where the average (though not peak)
consonance and flexibility does seem significantly better than in 12TET
(note: I rejected a few of his earlier scale as almost
indistinguishable and/or worse than 12TET based ones: I haven't always
supported his work this much).

E) Subsets of 22TET (Decatonic scales)...at least for jazz-like music (some loss of consonance, but not too bad)

F) Sethares' use of spectral-alignment (of timbre ) in 10TET. Again, it's still more dissonant than 12TET (even with the spectral mapping fix), but close enough that I can imagine many jazz music virtuosos IE Pat Metheny taking huge advantage of it (someone really needs to invent a stomp box for guitars that does spectral-alignment). :-)

G) My own 14-tone scale listed on
http://xenharmonic.ning.com/group/microtonalwithabeat/forum/topics/scales-built-for-use-in-future
.....which attempts to maximize the distance between root notes (on average) while maintaining the kind of strong o-tonal relationships typical of JI.

Do any of you have any more scales and/or musician you believe could help break micro-tonal through to the general public?

-Michael

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Herman Miller <hmiller@...>

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

Hermann>"I used to hear fragments of Neil Haverstick's "African Stick" on NPR in the morning between news reports (that's in 19-ET)."
Another +100 for African Stick. I haven't heard a bad song on that album. I think it's to micro-tonal blues what Marcus Hobbes is to micro-tonal dance music. Easily the most accessible of Haverstick's work, in my opinion and it really flows. Then again, I wouldn't say 19-TET is that easy to use as consonantly as he does...but it just goes to show he's a master of composition (and performance) that he makes 19-TET sound that good.

>"There's a track from Toumani Diabate's Symmetric Orchestra that's used in the Playstation 3 game LittleBigPlanet."
I found them at
http://www.myspace.com/toumanidiabate

This also sounds awesome...orchestral but at the the same time rhythmically intensive, catchy, and "riff-based" enough to catchy to eye of mainstream audiences and not just film score or orchestra fanatics.

>"Actually a 7-note mavila scale, while not as consonant as 12-ET, is
suitably exotic-sounding that it might be a good choice."
If this (IE the "Symmetric Orchestra") is what "mavilla" scales sound like, count me in as "for them" as in that type of scale. :-)

>"For something more consonant, a 15-note hanson/keemun type scale might be a good option."
Know any artists who use that scale and where I can get sound samples of it in use?

Again, thank you for the artist and scale tips...these are excellent, IMVHO.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

Thanks for mentioning Sean Archibald and Dr Oz. I would add
Jacky Ligon, Carlo Serafini (some tracks), Zia (some tracks),
and Holocene / Igliashon Jones (some tracks).

To answer your question about scales... I don't think the future
success and popularity of microtonalism is really a matter of
which scales. For neoclassical music, linear temperaments should
provide a natural evolutionary path, but are by no means required.
For dance music it matters even less.

-Carl

Michael wrote:

>Carl> "I shutter at the term "general audience". The CD revolution of
>the 1990s and mp3 revolution of the present decade made music
>connoisseurs in every genre."
>
> One thing I have noticed indeed, is that more genres and styles
>have reached the public ear and, thanks to the internet, fans of
>fringe genres can finally find plenty of music to satisfy their needs.
>
> The tricky thing I have noticed though, is how few fans I've seen
>of micro-tonal even compared to genre's as odd as the Gabber and/or
>Noise genres.
>
> True, micro-tonalists in niche styles can make a living, but can
>you walk into a group of even 30 people and be able to talk or gossip
>with one socially about micro-tonal music? Sadly, the chances are
>very slim...and that annoys me a bit.
>*******************************************************************
>..."(my favorite eletronic artists are Marcus Hobbs and the
>aforementioned Astroid Power-Up)."
>
> +1000 for Marcus Hobbs AKA Marcus Satellite. He's big on
>Wilson's 6-note tunings, which are, IMVHO, as or more consonant than
>12TET while adding extra sparkle. Carl, I know you said "niche
>audiences have grown so that one no longer needs the catchy stuff to
>earn a living"...but, even better I believe, is the reality of
>micro-tonalists who can combine catchy-ness and consonance with
>niche-like deviance. You can tell a song is his incredibly quickly.
>
> Also, unlike many micro-tonalists, Marcus does not skimp on the
>imagination or complexity of his beats or arrangement...doing full-on
>layered break-beats, arpeggios, pulsating custom-made pads, fluffy
>smooth filters, tantalizing female vocals, and all sorts of other
>tricks you'd expect from a world-class dance musician (right up there
>with groups like Way Out West and BT)...and lets them emotionally
>decorate music in the same way, say, saxophone vibrato decorates jazz
>music expression.
> This makes for epic music in every sense of the word. Another
>note, the music flows...and so well you can very easily dance to it: a
>huge plus because DJs (myself included) can actually get away with
>playing it without getting a "what the heck" response from the audience.
>****************************************************************
> Another side of the "general audience" issue, I believe, is the
>issue of creating a good list of scales that can compete directly with
>12TET consonance-wise while sounding different enough to strike
>listeners as new territory. Here are some of my favorites
>A) Wilson's "Hexany" scale (I believe that's the name, but it's a
>6-tone scale Marcus uses a lot)
>
>B) Ozan's Maqam-like scale used in "Saba Storm" (Ozan, please do us a
>favor and post this scale!)
>
>C) Wendy Carlos's Alpha scale as often used by Sean Archibald (who,
>IMVHO, isn't far behind Marcus Satellite)
>
>D) Marcel's latest "Harmonic-JI" scale...which takes advantage of
>u-tonal relationships and will likely fit the bill for very well those
>who like the sound of extensive minor chords and inversions. This is
>(finally) one scale he's made where the average (though not peak)
>consonance and flexibility does seem significantly better than in 12TET
>(note: I rejected a few of his earlier scale as almost
>indistinguishable and/or worse than 12TET based ones: I haven't always
>supported his work this much).
>
>E) Subsets of 22TET (Decatonic scales)...at least for jazz-like music
>(some loss of consonance, but not too bad)
>
>F) Sethares' use of spectral-alignment (of timbre ) in 10TET. Again,
>it's still more dissonant than 12TET (even with the spectral mapping
>fix), but close enough that I can imagine many jazz music virtuosos IE
>Pat Metheny taking huge advantage of it (someone really needs to
>invent a stomp box for guitars that does spectral-alignment). :-)
>
>G) My own 14-tone scale listed on
>http://xenharmonic.ning.com/group/microtonalwithabeat/forum/topics/sca
>les-built-for-use-in-future
> .....which attempts to maximize the distance between root notes
>(on average) while maintaining the kind of strong o-tonal
>relationships typical of JI.
>
> Do any of you have any more scales and/or musician you believe
>could help break micro-tonal through to the general public?
>
>-Michael

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>

Dear Michael,

My apologies for this late reply. As you can glean from the recent
flare-up, insults and unjust calumnious accusations flying arround,
I've been much disturbed. It is hoped that such ugliness will not
resurface again in this medium.

As for the provocative Saba scale, I had posted the details to the
tuning list and also here at MMM on October 29th, so I copy paste the
scale here:

The scale employed in the composition is that of the Saba maqam, or
else a Yarman-36a subset containing the Saba scale. The 12-tone subset
scale chosen from my notorious Yarman-36a tuning is given below:

Yarman-36a Saba maqam with perde rast on C
12
!
148.23705
198.74659 D
347.40794 Eb (quartertonal)
381.44577 Ed
501.35622 F
649.32179 Gb (quartertonal)
699.74399
801.68275
896.75720 A
1001.88049 Bb
1079.85183
1200.00000 C

I wanted to use a Yarman-36c subset, but my version of Logic Pro does
not allow octave stretching.

Cordially,
Oz.

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

On Nov 3, 2009, at 4:10 AM, Michael wrote:

> Carl> "I shutter at the term "general audience". The CD revolution
> of the 1990s and mp3 revolution of the present decade made music
> connoisseurs in every genre."
>
> One thing I have noticed indeed, is that more genres and styles
> have reached the public ear and, thanks to the internet, fans of
> fringe genres can finally find plenty of music to satisfy their needs.
>
> The tricky thing I have noticed though, is how few fans I've
> seen of micro-tonal even compared to genre's as odd as the Gabber
> and/or Noise genres.
>
> True, micro-tonalists in niche styles can make a living, but can
> you walk into a group of even 30 people and be able to talk or
> gossip with one socially about micro-tonal music? Sadly, the
> chances are very slim...and that annoys me a bit.
> *******************************************************************
> ..."(my favorite eletronic artists are Marcus Hobbs and the
> aforementioned Astroid Power-Up)."
>
>
> +1000 for Marcus Hobbs AKA Marcus Satellite. He's big on
> Wilson's 6-note tunings, which are, IMVHO, as or more consonant than
> 12TET while adding extra sparkle. Carl, I know you said "niche
> audiences have grown so that one no longer needs the catchy stuff to
> earn a living"...but, even better I believe, is the reality of micro-
> tonalists who can combine catchy-ness and consonance with niche-like
> deviance. You can tell a song is his incredibly quickly.
>
> Also, unlike many micro-tonalists, Marcus does not skimp on the
> imagination or complexity of his beats or arrangement...doing full-
> on layered break-beats, arpeggios, pulsating custom-made pads,
> fluffy smooth filters, tantalizing female vocals, and all sorts of
> other tricks you'd expect from a world-class dance musician (right
> up there with groups like Way Out West and BT)...and lets them
> emotionally decorate music in the same way, say, saxophone vibrato
> decorates jazz music expression.
> This makes for epic music in every sense of the word. Another
> note, the music flows...and so well you can very easily dance to it:
> a huge plus because DJs (myself included) can actually get away with
> playing it without getting a "what the heck" response from the
> audience.
> ****************************************************************
> Another side of the "general audience" issue, I believe, is the
> issue of creating a good list of scales that can compete directly
> with 12TET consonance-wise while sounding different enough to strike
> listeners as new territory. Here are some of my favorites
> A) Wilson's "Hexany" scale (I believe that's the name, but it's a 6-
> tone scale Marcus uses a lot)
>
> B) Ozan's Maqam-like scale used in "Saba Storm" (Ozan, please do us
> a favor and post this scale!)
>
> C) Wendy Carlos's Alpha scale as often used by Sean Archibald (who,
> IMVHO, isn't far behind Marcus Satellite)
>
> D) Marcel's latest "Harmonic-JI" scale...which takes advantage of
> u-tonal relationships and will likely fit the bill for very well those
> who like the sound of extensive minor chords and inversions. This is
> (finally) one scale he's made where the average (though not peak)
> consonance and flexibility does seem significantly better than in
> 12TET
> (note: I rejected a few of his earlier scale as almost
> indistinguishable and/or worse than 12TET based ones: I haven't always
> supported his work this much).
>
> E) Subsets of 22TET (Decatonic scales)...at least for jazz-like
> music (some loss of consonance, but not too bad)
>
> F) Sethares' use of spectral-alignment (of timbre ) in 10TET.
> Again, it's still more dissonant than 12TET (even with the spectral
> mapping fix), but close enough that I can imagine many jazz music
> virtuosos IE Pat Metheny taking huge advantage of it (someone really
> needs to invent a stomp box for guitars that does spectral-
> alignment). :-)
>
> G) My own 14-tone scale listed on
> http://xenharmonic.ning.com/group/microtonalwithabeat/forum/topics/scales-built-for-use-in-future
> .....which attempts to maximize the distance between root notes
> (on average) while maintaining the kind of strong o-tonal
> relationships typical of JI.
>
>
> Do any of you have any more scales and/or musician you believe
> could help break micro-tonal through to the general public?
>
> -Michael
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [MMM] judge's notes: unabridged feedback on your compositions

🔗Graham Breed <gbreed@...>

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

🔗gdsecor <gdsecor@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

🔗Herman Miller <hmiller@...>

🔗Michael <djtrancendance@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@...>