11-limit renditions of Impressionistic era music?

So this is the burning question I've had on my mind for some time now:
when you listen to Debussy, you can clearly hear places in the music
where 7-limit (and possibly beyond) harmonies are implied, even though
he wrote for 12-tet. Has anyone tried to take a Debussy work and put
it in a higher limit JI? I had started trying to do something similar
with his piece "Reverie", but gave up around bar 30... The comma pumps
did me in.

Perhaps someone else has tried tackling a similar project? I'd love to hear it.

-Mike

There was some discussion on this topics some time ago on Tuning list. I will copy here a segment of my message there from Feb. 6 this year:

---------------------
Of course a chord which follows harmonic series would be rather 13/11+, that one started to be used by Debussy, Scriabin and later overused in jazz even as ending chord. It's based on the Lydian/Mixolydian scale C - D - E - F# - G - A - Bb, which has a narrow connection with flute overblowing (and Scriabin's Prometheus chord!). Therefore we can find this scale in all cultures using flute as a main instrument, usually shepherd's music, in Europe it's for example Carpathian music from Bulgaria to Slovakia, South Poland and eastern Moravia where this type of musical culture ends (which was found and used by many composers - Bartok, Janacek especially, Haba, Killar - his Krzesany is an excellent example for this scale...). This "natural harmonic" scale has a name "goralska" or "podhalanska" tonality in High Tatra Mountains and it can be easily played on regional instrument - long flute called "fujara" and other flutes.

Long time composers were not aware of this, but when accordics has reached 13th in the middle of 19th century, and when composers started to be interested in folklore and were influenced by it, there were some composers who started not to use 13th chord in a traditional way (e.g. with omitted third and fifth, like for example Bb7maj on C bass - such chords were used by Chopin and Liszt), but with 11+, third and fifth to simulate harmonic series even in common 12 ET. It's interesting but not surprising that composers-pianists started with this, as they could find such "nice sounding" chords easily with pressed pedal. We can find such chords in Chopin, Liszt (maybe not intentional use, just as a color) and especially Debussy who was for sure aware of this. Chopin used 7th and 9th chords in this way. Debussy has this in his Isle joyeuse (BTW I consider it as a great breakthrough work, there's a clear connection to harmonic series with Lydian 4th and Mixolydian 7th, it would sound great in JI) and other works. This line in music continued in Stravinskij, Janacek, Bartok, Messiaen, Killar, Reich and many others (not forget myself in more works).

But it's necessary to emphasize that it's only a simulation of harmonic series. I'm not aware of any attempts from the side of those composers to use JI, nothing to say about jazz.

---------------------

:-)

Daniel Forro

On 9 Oct 2009, at 2:25 PM, Mike Battaglia wrote:

>
> So this is the burning question I've had on my mind for some time now:
> when you listen to Debussy, you can clearly hear places in the music
> where 7-limit (and possibly beyond) harmonies are implied, even though
> he wrote for 12-tet. Has anyone tried to take a Debussy work and put
> it in a higher limit JI? I had started trying to do something similar
> with his piece "Reverie", but gave up around bar 30... The comma pumps
> did me in.
>
> Perhaps someone else has tried tackling a similar project? I'd love > to hear it.
>
> -Mike

Mike B. wrote:

>So this is the burning question I've had on my mind for some time now:
>when you listen to Debussy, you can clearly hear places in the music
>where 7-limit (and possibly beyond) harmonies are implied, even though
>he wrote for 12-tet.

And Ravel even moreso I think.

>Has anyone tried to take a Debussy work and put
>it in a higher limit JI? I had started trying to do something similar
>with his piece "Reverie", but gave up around bar 30... The comma pumps
>did me in.

They would be ferocious. Last I checked, the Hermode folks were
talking about the 7-limit but hadn't implemented it yet. For
music through the Baroque we have Vicentino's excellent solution
of rooting to 1/4-comma meantone. For the impressionists, the
ideal root tuning is probably almost always 12-ET (which is what
Hermode uses). Its 11-limit errors, though, are much larger than
those of 1/4-comma meantone in the 5-limit. So unlike Vicentino's
solution there would still be obvious comma shifts.

-Carl

> >So this is the burning question I've had on my mind for some time now:
> >when you listen to Debussy, you can clearly hear places in the music
> >where 7-limit (and possibly beyond) harmonies are implied, even though
> >he wrote for 12-tet.
>
> And Ravel even moreso I think.

Oh? Any pieces stand out in particular?

>
> >Has anyone tried to take a Debussy work and put
> >it in a higher limit JI? I had started trying to do something similar
> >with his piece "Reverie", but gave up around bar 30... The comma pumps
> >did me in.
>
> They would be ferocious. Last I checked, the Hermode folks were
> talking about the 7-limit but hadn't implemented it yet. For
> music through the Baroque we have Vicentino's excellent solution
> of rooting to 1/4-comma meantone. For the impressionists, the
> ideal root tuning is probably almost always 12-ET (which is what
> Hermode uses). Its 11-limit errors, though, are much larger than
> those of 1/4-comma meantone in the 5-limit. So unlike Vicentino's
> solution there would still be obvious comma shifts.

I agree on the 12-tet being the ideal root tuning, for Debussy at
least -- he's very fond of comma pumps that temper out 128/125 and
648/625 and the like. Perhaps something like 72-tet would be ideal
then. I had actually been working in 72-equal, but I was trying to
treat it as though it really was 11-limit JI, and that 72-equal was
just the finest resolution I had... perhaps it would be easier to work
with 72-equal within an adaptive JI paradigm.

>
> -Carl
>
>

At 12:40 AM 10/9/2009, you wrote:
>> >So this is the burning question I've had on my mind for some time now:
>> >when you listen to Debussy, you can clearly hear places in the music
>> >where 7-limit (and possibly beyond) harmonies are implied, even though
>> >he wrote for 12-tet.
>>
>> And Ravel even moreso I think.
>
>Oh? Any pieces stand out in particular?

I first noticed it with "Pavane pour une infante defunte".
Herman Miller later used it as the basis of a retuning
experiment:
http://www.io.com/~hmiller/music/pavane.html

-Carl

There are places with 7th, 9th chords in Ravel's music, often colored by 11th+ and 13th, not so much in Pavane. Try for example:

Serenade grotesque (lot of altered seventh chords based on whole tone scale, it reminds a lot Scriabin)
La Vallee des Cloches
Sonatine, Mov. II
Daphnis and Chloe
...

Daniel Forro

On 9 Oct 2009, at 4:50 PM, Carl Lumma wrote:

>
> At 12:40 AM 10/9/2009, you wrote:
> >> >So this is the burning question I've had on my mind for some > time now:
> >> >when you listen to Debussy, you can clearly hear places in the > music
> >> >where 7-limit (and possibly beyond) harmonies are implied, even > though
> >> >he wrote for 12-tet.
> >>
> >> And Ravel even moreso I think.
> >
> >Oh? Any pieces stand out in particular?
>
> I first noticed it with "Pavane pour une infante defunte".
> Herman Miller later used it as the basis of a retuning
> experiment:
> http://www.io.com/~hmiller/music/pavane.html
>
> -Carl
>

From Mike Battaglia:

> So this is the burning question I've had on my mind for some time now:
> when you listen to Debussy, you can clearly hear places in the music
> where 7-limit (and possibly beyond) harmonies are implied, even though
> he wrote for 12-tet. Has anyone tried to take a Debussy work and put
> it in a higher limit JI? I had started trying to do something similar
> with his piece "Reverie", but gave up around bar 30... The comma pumps
> did me in.
>
> Perhaps someone else has tried tackling a similar project? I'd love to > hear it.

�Clair de lune� from _Bergamasques_ comes to mind for 7-limit (I'm not brave enough to throw in 11): I hear the C flat and F flat versus D flat in the faster arpeggio part as septimal. In fact, I'm attempting a 72-edo near-JI arrangement right now, but I'm stuck on the climax in E major; I tried "sliding" the A flat/G sharp down 50 cents, and hated the result. I got 30-odd measures so far anyway, and I like how it sounds, but I can't guarantee it'll error-free.

It's also hard to get rubato and other swells worked properly into a MIDI sequence.

~D.

I think Hermannn's 5-limit interpretation is wrong. (Nothing against Mr. Miller, a really hoopy frood). I suspect that the Just elements which were taken as structural, if they indeed so were, are based on C (taking the piece as in G), not on G.

Why? Because right off the bat in Herman's 5-limit version, the re in the first measure sounds too high (meantoney?) to me whereas if it were a 5/3 from C (ie from IV in the piece), it would be a lovely, and more appropriate IMO, 10/9 from G.

But, I believe that tonality in a number of musics isn't meant to be "straight"; the "real" tonality is a kind of "X of...", or say, one tonality in the light of another. So I don't expect any agreement from anyone on this- of course, you can always try it yourself and see...

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
>
> At 12:40 AM 10/9/2009, you wrote:
> >> >So this is the burning question I've had on my mind for some time now:
> >> >when you listen to Debussy, you can clearly hear places in the music
> >> >where 7-limit (and possibly beyond) harmonies are implied, even though
> >> >he wrote for 12-tet.
> >>
> >> And Ravel even moreso I think.
>
> >Oh? Any pieces stand out in particular?
>
> I first noticed it with "Pavane pour une infante defunte".
> Herman Miller later used it as the basis of a retuning
> experiment:
> http://www.io.com/~hmiller/music/pavane.html
>
> -Carl
>

Oh, I should mention that I'm talking about the "key" of the tuning, and modalities. Before someone says, dude the piece is in E minor, LOL. I believe that modal thinking with assymetrical referencing, not transposing, from a given "C" might be a good approach be. May not be correct in this case, but it might be.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "cameron" <misterbobro@...> wrote:
>
> I think Hermannn's 5-limit interpretation is wrong. (Nothing against Mr. Miller, a really hoopy frood). I suspect that the Just elements which were taken as structural, if they indeed so were, are based on C (taking the piece as in G), not on G.
>
> Why? Because right off the bat in Herman's 5-limit version, the re in the first measure sounds too high (meantoney?) to me whereas if it were a 5/3 from C (ie from IV in the piece), it would be a lovely, and more appropriate IMO, 10/9 from G.
>
> But, I believe that tonality in a number of musics isn't meant to be "straight"; the "real" tonality is a kind of "X of...", or say, one tonality in the light of another. So I don't expect any agreement from anyone on this- of course, you can always try it yourself and see...
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@> wrote:
> >
> > At 12:40 AM 10/9/2009, you wrote:
> > >> >So this is the burning question I've had on my mind for some time now:
> > >> >when you listen to Debussy, you can clearly hear places in the music
> > >> >where 7-limit (and possibly beyond) harmonies are implied, even though
> > >> >he wrote for 12-tet.
> > >>
> > >> And Ravel even moreso I think.
> >
> > >Oh? Any pieces stand out in particular?
> >
> > I first noticed it with "Pavane pour une infante defunte".
> > Herman Miller later used it as the basis of a retuning
> > experiment:
> > http://www.io.com/~hmiller/music/pavane.html
> >
> > -Carl
> >
>

At 02:29 AM 10/9/2009, you wrote:
>I think Hermannn's 5-limit interpretation is wrong.

All those were just mapped directly into the other tunings,
as explained in the intro.

-Carl

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
>
> At 02:29 AM 10/9/2009, you wrote:
> >I think Hermannn's 5-limit interpretation is wrong.
>
> All those were just mapped directly into the other tunings,
> as explained in the intro.
>
> -Carl
>

Yes, and as I explained, I think this is wrong. Well, maybe "wrong" is the wrong word, but let's say not optimal or something like that.

At 08:36 AM 10/9/2009, you wrote:
>
>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
>>
>> At 02:29 AM 10/9/2009, you wrote:
>> >I think Hermannn's 5-limit interpretation is wrong.
>>
>> All those were just mapped directly into the other tunings,
>> as explained in the intro.
>>
>
>Yes, and as I explained, I think this is wrong. Well, maybe "wrong" is
>the wrong word, but let's say not optimal or something like that.

It's taken as granted that it's wrong. Isn't that clear from
Herman's explanation? -Carl

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
>
> At 08:36 AM 10/9/2009, you wrote:
> >
> >--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@> wrote:
> >>
> >> At 02:29 AM 10/9/2009, you wrote:
> >> >I think Hermannn's 5-limit interpretation is wrong.
> >>
> >> All those were just mapped directly into the other tunings,
> >> as explained in the intro.
> >>
> >
> >Yes, and as I explained, I think this is wrong. Well, maybe "wrong" is
> >the wrong word, but let's say not optimal or something like that.
>
> It's taken as granted that it's wrong. Isn't that clear from
> Herman's explanation? -Carl

"As of now, only the 5-limit JI version has a hand-adjusted version available", from the page. No, it is not clear (the adjustments refer to wolf fifths).

Anyway, what I think is "wrong" is something else: I think tuning this piece to 5-limit JI G Major is fundamentally wrong, because I don't hear the piece as "in G Major" in a conventional sense. As I pointed out.

Debussy stated he heard 36 tones to the octave. I seems this would be the place to start. his use of diminished chords seems though might fit 7-limit quite good. There is much in his work that plays with ambiguous and contradictory passages. For instance he freely goes from chromatic, pentatonic, whole tones scales at the drop of a hat in a melodic single phrase.

When i still dabbled in 12ET and when i bang on a piano i have always liked this scale. Hanson labeled it the harmonic scale

While Fujara and other similar instruments produce the harmonic series. Those other flutes with equally spaced holes produce the subharmonic series.

/^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere: North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

a momentary antenna as i turn to water
this evaporates - an island once again

Daniel Forro wrote:
> >
> There was some discussion on this topics some time ago on Tuning
> list. I will copy here a segment of my message there from Feb. 6 this
> year:
>
> ------------ ---------
> Of course a chord which follows harmonic series would be rather 13/11
> +, that one started to be used by Debussy, Scriabin and later
> overused in jazz even as ending chord. It's based on the Lydian/
> Mixolydian scale C - D - E - F# - G - A - Bb, which has a narrow
> connection with flute overblowing (and Scriabin's Prometheus chord!).
> Therefore we can find this scale in all cultures using flute as a
> main instrument, usually shepherd's music, in Europe it's for example
> Carpathian music from Bulgaria to Slovakia, South Poland and eastern
> Moravia where this type of musical culture ends (which was found and
> used by many composers - Bartok, Janacek especially, Haba, Killar -
> his Krzesany is an excellent example for this scale...). This
> "natural harmonic" scale has a name "goralska" or "podhalanska"
> tonality in High Tatra Mountains and it can be easily played on
> regional instrument - long flute called "fujara" and other flutes.
>
> Long time composers were not aware of this, but when accordics has
> reached 13th in the middle of 19th century, and when composers
> started to be interested in folklore and were influenced by it, there
> were some composers who started not to use 13th chord in a
> traditional way (e.g. with omitted third and fifth, like for example
> Bb7maj on C bass - such chords were used by Chopin and Liszt), but
> with 11+, third and fifth to simulate harmonic series even in common
> 12 ET. It's interesting but not surprising that composers-pianists
> started with this, as they could find such "nice sounding" chords
> easily with pressed pedal. We can find such chords in Chopin, Liszt
> (maybe not intentional use, just as a color) and especially Debussy
> who was for sure aware of this. Chopin used 7th and 9th chords in
> this way. Debussy has this in his Isle joyeuse (BTW I consider it as
> a great breakthrough work, there's a clear connection to harmonic
> series with Lydian 4th and Mixolydian 7th, it would sound great in
> JI) and other works. This line in music continued in Stravinskij,
> Janacek, Bartok, Messiaen, Killar, Reich and many others (not forget
> myself in more works).
>
> But it's necessary to emphasize that it's only a simulation of
> harmonic series. I'm not aware of any attempts from the side of those
> composers to use JI, nothing to say about jazz.
>
> ------------ ---------
>
> :-)
>
> Daniel Forro
>
> On 9 Oct 2009, at 2:25 PM, Mike Battaglia wrote:
>
> >
> > So this is the burning question I've had on my mind for some time now:
> > when you listen to Debussy, you can clearly hear places in the music
> > where 7-limit (and possibly beyond) harmonies are implied, even though
> > he wrote for 12-tet. Has anyone tried to take a Debussy work and put
> > it in a higher limit JI? I had started trying to do something similar
> > with his piece "Reverie", but gave up around bar 30... The comma pumps
> > did me in.
> >
> > Perhaps someone else has tried tackling a similar project? I'd love
> > to hear it.
> >
> > -Mike
>
>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...> >wrote:
>
> Debussy stated he heard 36 tones to the octave. I seems this would be
> the place to start. his use of diminished chords seems though might >fit
> 7-limit quite good. There is much in his work that plays with >ambiguous
> and contradictory passages. For instance he freely goes from >chromatic,
> pentatonic, whole tones scales at the drop of a hat in a melodic >single
> phrase.

It seems to me that Debussy, Ravel, and many others did not think in terms of JI chords as discrete units above roots, that is,
adaptive JI. I think they worked more conceptually along the lines of modalities of a few taller harmonic structures or Just scales.

I think problems with wolves and commas with Debussy or others
stems from trying to stuff the music into a structure for which
it was not originally intended. Whereas 36 tones to the octave,
probably roughly equal, but derived from the harmonics, sounds like
it would work very well.

It should be easy to test this idea: play the pieces in tunings which are basically Just, but with an absolute minimum of split keys, comma
adjustments. etc. The Ravel Pavane works this way quite easily,
have to look at some of the Debussy pieces some day...

probably more Pythagorean based. Nothing about equal. No functional harmony at all, pure color i would imagine. Some some higher limit JI could be used but plan on nothing consistent. the music is just not that way.

/^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere: North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

a momentary antenna as i turn to water
this evaporates - an island once again

cameron wrote:
> >
>
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@ yahoogroups. com > <mailto:MakeMicroMusic%40yahoogroups.com>, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@ > ...> >wrote:
> >
> > Debussy stated he heard 36 tones to the octave. I seems this would be
> > the place to start. his use of diminished chords seems though might > >fit
> > 7-limit quite good. There is much in his work that plays with > >ambiguous
> > and contradictory passages. For instance he freely goes from > >chromatic,
> > pentatonic, whole tones scales at the drop of a hat in a melodic > >single
> > phrase.
>
> It seems to me that Debussy, Ravel, and many others did not think in > terms of JI chords as discrete units above roots, that is,
> adaptive JI. I think they worked more conceptually along the lines of > modalities of a few taller harmonic structures or Just scales.
>
> I think problems with wolves and commas with Debussy or others
> stems from trying to stuff the music into a structure for which
> it was not originally intended. Whereas 36 tones to the octave,
> probably roughly equal, but derived from the harmonics, sounds like
> it would work very well.
>
> It should be easy to test this idea: play the pieces in tunings which > are basically Just, but with an absolute minimum of split keys, comma
> adjustments. etc. The Ravel Pavane works this way quite easily,
> have to look at some of the Debussy pieces some day...
>
>

There is always a feeling of clutching at straws in any key/function based analysis of Debussy or say, Scriabin, in my opinion. Not to mention the Procrustean Bed approach of "set-theory" kinds of analyses (though George Perle on Scriabin and Bartok is a groovy read).

But I think Ravel boils down, at the physical heart of it, to the harmonic series and modality.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...> wrote:
>
> probably more Pythagorean based. Nothing about equal. No functional
> harmony at all, pure color i would imagine. Some some higher limit JI
> could be used but plan on nothing consistent. the music is just not that
> way.
>
>
> /^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
> Mesotonal Music from:
> _'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
>
> _'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
> Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>
>
> ',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',
>
> a momentary antenna as i turn to water
> this evaporates - an island once again
>
>
> cameron wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In MakeMicroMusic@ yahoogroups. com
> > <mailto:MakeMicroMusic%40yahoogroups.com>, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@
> > ...> >wrote:
> > >
> > > Debussy stated he heard 36 tones to the octave. I seems this would be
> > > the place to start. his use of diminished chords seems though might
> > >fit
> > > 7-limit quite good. There is much in his work that plays with
> > >ambiguous
> > > and contradictory passages. For instance he freely goes from
> > >chromatic,
> > > pentatonic, whole tones scales at the drop of a hat in a melodic
> > >single
> > > phrase.
> >
> > It seems to me that Debussy, Ravel, and many others did not think in
> > terms of JI chords as discrete units above roots, that is,
> > adaptive JI. I think they worked more conceptually along the lines of
> > modalities of a few taller harmonic structures or Just scales.
> >
> > I think problems with wolves and commas with Debussy or others
> > stems from trying to stuff the music into a structure for which
> > it was not originally intended. Whereas 36 tones to the octave,
> > probably roughly equal, but derived from the harmonics, sounds like
> > it would work very well.
> >
> > It should be easy to test this idea: play the pieces in tunings which
> > are basically Just, but with an absolute minimum of split keys, comma
> > adjustments. etc. The Ravel Pavane works this way quite easily,
> > have to look at some of the Debussy pieces some day...
> >
> >
>

> Debussy stated he heard 36 tones to the octave. I seems this would be
> the place to start.

Where did you hear this information?

> his use of diminished chords seems though might fit
> 7-limit quite good.

And his innovative use of dominant 7 and 9 chords as well.

> There is much in his work that plays with ambiguous
> and contradictory passages. For instance he freely goes from chromatic,
> pentatonic, whole tones scales at the drop of a hat in a melodic single
> phrase.

He also uses the whole tone scale itself as a generating scale for
higher-limit chords. For example, in his composition "Hommage a
Rameau", there's a part (at the climax) where he has a chord and
arpeggio in D lydian dominant, followed by the C# whole tone scale...
The way he did it suggests to me that if he was hearing the D lydian
dominant as an 11-limit otonality (which may be a stretch) then he was
hearing the C# as an even higher limit, more dissonant, yet still
resonant structure.

> When i still dabbled in 12ET and when i bang on a piano i have always
> liked this scale. Hanson labeled it the harmonic scale

Are you talking about the whole tone scale? The most blatant 12-tet
representation of the harmonic series that I've ever heard Debussy use
was lydian dominant.

-Mike

> There is always a feeling of clutching at straws in any key/function based analysis of Debussy or say, Scriabin, in my opinion. Not to mention the Procrustean Bed approach of "set-theory" kinds of analyses (though George Perle on Scriabin and Bartok is a groovy read).
>
> But I think Ravel boils down, at the physical heart of it, to the harmonic series and modality.

I've never thought of Debussy and Ravel as being so fundamentally
different. I haven't delved into nearly as much Ravel as I have
Debussy, but I've listened to Ravel enough to know that he is a very
similar animal. Debussy's style changed over the course of his career
enough that his later stuff sounded much different, almost atonal at
times (but never quite)... but he has plenty of more straightforward
"modal" as well as tonal stuff.

As far as modes and such go, I haven't heard any composers earlier
than Debussy (unless you want to look really far back) to really mine
modal harmonies in the way that would become more popular in the 20th
century (even in popular music and such). And as Debussy is one of my
favorite composers, and a prime influence on the way I approach music
in general, it saddens me a bit to watch as his entire essence gets
distilled down to "he uses the whole tone scale" in music courses
across the country. Not only was he the first to really get creative
with modes (unless someone has earlier examples! I'd love to hear),
but he was certainly the first to explore the mental climates offered
by the modes of the melodic minor scale, and to a lesser extent the
harmonic minor/major scales. And from what I've heard from Ravel, he
builds off Debussy's work in this regard with some interesting twists
and differences.

But I am absolutely certain that I hear 7-limit harmonies within
Debussy's work. And the little bit of work I did on Reverie proved to
me that they often sound better than the 12-tet version of the same
chord (when comma pumps aren't involved). The remarkable thing about
all of this for me is that he manages to guide my ear so clearly and
cleanly to structures like 4:5:6:7, and how he also manages to imply a
dominant chord with 16/9 or 9/5 if he wants just as well... But I
can't quite think of an example where Debussy manages to imply
11-limit harmonies quite as cleanly though. It is possible that 11/8
might be substituted in for some of his #11 chords, but for most of
the ones I can think of now, they would just sound like different
chords in the end.

If anybody can think of any "this screams 11-limit" examples of such
in either Debussy's or Ravel's work, I'd love to hear them. Of course,
such examples are usually constrained to a few chords spread out over
2 or 3 bars.

-Mike

> >Oh? Any pieces stand out in particular?
>
> I first noticed it with "Pavane pour une infante defunte".

What part of Pavane do you hear as being higher-limit? The parallel
dom9 chords and such in the middle?
I've always personally thought of that piece as being one of the
shining examples of post-common practice "modern" 5-limit harmony,
although I'm certainly curious to hear what a 7-limit interpretation
could be.

> Herman Miller later used it as the basis of a retuning
> experiment:
> http://www.io.com/~hmiller/music/pavane.html
>
> -Carl

I've seen this page before, although I somehow missed the 19-limit JI
version at the bottom. I certainly do hear 7-limit intervals sounding
perfectly natural fairly often here... some of the ones I thought were
clearly implied as 5-limit sound great as 7-limit.

Actually, the discrepency between what I thought was 5-limit and how
well some of these 19-limit harmonies work almost makes me wonder if I
even know what 7-limit JI is at all. I'm surprised at how often 7/4
works for dominant 7 chords here, although I usually hate 4:5:6:7 for
that function.

-Mike

As you probably know, there was "fight" amongst fans of the two composers, about who-copied-whom. Both composers, I think, would be tickled pink to hear that I believe that the similarities are more superficial, and that at the heart of it, they are deeply different.

It is clear that Debussy wasn't thinking in terms of 12-tET: he
said so himself. (for example in the much-quoted conversation with
Guiraud). There must be more quotes about Debussy and tuning in Slonimsky, which is where I imagine Kraig got his.

At any rate, it is my opinion that Just-over-roots approach doesn't apply to the work of either composer, although such an approach, or any other, to analizing the works might be very fruitful for another composer (seeing things in different lights, good for creativity). A "7-limit Just" interpretation, for example, does not necessarily result in a 7/4 within a nominal V7, for example. Put another way, a piece could possibly heard and performed as 11-limit without a single
tall chord in earshot (an alpenhorn solo would be an ad absurdum, yet accurate, example).

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...> wrote:
>
> > There is always a feeling of clutching at straws in any key/function based analysis of Debussy or say, Scriabin, in my opinion. Not to mention the Procrustean Bed approach of "set-theory" kinds of analyses (though George Perle on Scriabin and Bartok is a groovy read).
> >
> > But I think Ravel boils down, at the physical heart of it, to the harmonic series and modality.
>
> I've never thought of Debussy and Ravel as being so fundamentally
> different. I haven't delved into nearly as much Ravel as I have
> Debussy, but I've listened to Ravel enough to know that he is a very
> similar animal. Debussy's style changed over the course of his career
> enough that his later stuff sounded much different, almost atonal at
> times (but never quite)... but he has plenty of more straightforward
> "modal" as well as tonal stuff.
>
> As far as modes and such go, I haven't heard any composers earlier
> than Debussy (unless you want to look really far back) to really mine
> modal harmonies in the way that would become more popular in the 20th
> century (even in popular music and such). And as Debussy is one of my
> favorite composers, and a prime influence on the way I approach music
> in general, it saddens me a bit to watch as his entire essence gets
> distilled down to "he uses the whole tone scale" in music courses
> across the country. Not only was he the first to really get creative
> with modes (unless someone has earlier examples! I'd love to hear),
> but he was certainly the first to explore the mental climates offered
> by the modes of the melodic minor scale, and to a lesser extent the
> harmonic minor/major scales. And from what I've heard from Ravel, he
> builds off Debussy's work in this regard with some interesting twists
> and differences.
>
> But I am absolutely certain that I hear 7-limit harmonies within
> Debussy's work. And the little bit of work I did on Reverie proved to
> me that they often sound better than the 12-tet version of the same
> chord (when comma pumps aren't involved). The remarkable thing about
> all of this for me is that he manages to guide my ear so clearly and
> cleanly to structures like 4:5:6:7, and how he also manages to imply a
> dominant chord with 16/9 or 9/5 if he wants just as well... But I
> can't quite think of an example where Debussy manages to imply
> 11-limit harmonies quite as cleanly though. It is possible that 11/8
> might be substituted in for some of his #11 chords, but for most of
> the ones I can think of now, they would just sound like different
> chords in the end.
>
> If anybody can think of any "this screams 11-limit" examples of such
> in either Debussy's or Ravel's work, I'd love to hear them. Of course,
> such examples are usually constrained to a few chords spread out over
> 2 or 3 bars.
>
> -Mike
>