12th root of Phi Piece

This is the scale I used - developed from a conversation on the tuning group.

! C:\Cakewalk\scales\12throotofphi.scl
!
12th root of phi
11
!
69.42116
138.84232
208.26348
277.68464
347.10580
416.52696
485.94813
555.36929
624.79045
694.21161
763.63277

The scale and midi is here http://clones.soonlabel.com/public/micro/12th-root-phi/

The improvisation is here

http://clones.soonlabel.com/public/micro/12th-root-phi/12th-root-phi.mp3

IMO a piano sound is not well suited to be used with alternative tunings.
it is too closely intertwined with 12tET.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "vaisvil" <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:

> The improvisation is here
>
> http://clones.soonlabel.com/public/micro/12th-root-phi/12th-root-phi.mp3
>

>
> IMO a piano sound is not well suited to be used with alternative tunings.
> it is too closely intertwined with 12tET.
>

Sorry but I must disagree with this.
I like piano a lot in Just Intonation (as long as I don't mess up). Very
natural sounding and much better than 12tet.
I find piano to be about the most revealing instrument for tuning in it's
initial attack.
Though the sustained sound of the piano isn't that good to check tuning.

I think the piano reveals the imperfection of Michaels Phi tuning.
If I correctly interpreted Michaels intentions, he never claimed this to be
a perfectly in tune (like JI) tuning, rather a tuning which sounds good in
any key without comma shifts?

Marcel

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Marcel> "I think the piano reveals the imperfection of Michaels Phi tuning."

Which is? What I do know about the piano is the odd harmonics on it are a bit off-tune. Which makes many of the "barely avoiding the critical band" note/overtone near-conflicts in my scale fall past the line into dissonance.

If you think it's a problem with my scale period...the counter-proof would likely involve a 9-note per 2/1-interval/octave scale where virtually any combination of notes would have a relationship that sounds like about "13-odd-limit consonance" and a large majority of possible chord having "9-odd-limit consonance".
Which would be great if you could manage I'm just saying in advance...what I'm trying to achieve is not trivial and I certainly have not seen anyone to
it with JI yet.

>"If I correctly interpreted Michaels intentions, he never claimed this to be a perfectly in tune (like JI) tuning, rather a tuning which sounds good in any key without comma shifts?"

Far from it...comma shifts are irrelevant in my tuning...I neither use them nor make a point to "avoid them". Everything is aligned to the PHI-tave/period...it has 100% nothing to do with comma-shifts from the octave.

-Michael

>
> Which is? What I do know about the piano is the odd harmonics on it are a
> bit off-tune. Which makes many of the "barely avoiding the critical band"
> note/overtone near-conflicts in my scale fall past the line into dissonance.
>

I don't mean your scale is imperfect :)
As I understand I does what you want it to do.

I only ment it doesn't do JI perfect tuning like 1/1 5/4 3/2 etc.
And that this piano sound makes this audible in this song.

>
> If you think it's a problem with my scale period...the counter-proof would
> likely involve a 9-note per 2/1-interval/octave scale where virtually any
> combination of notes would have a relationship that sounds like about
> "13-odd-limit consonance" and a large majority of possible chord having
> "9-odd-limit consonance".
> Which would be great if you could manage I'm just saying in advance...what
> I'm trying to achieve is not trivial and I certainly have not seen anyone to
> it with JI yet.
>

No I don't think JI works that way.
What you want the scale to do sounds to me to be only acheivable by
tempering (if I can call your Phi tuning tempering, no offense intended
incase you don't see it as tempering)

What I don't yet really understand is where you prefer your Phi tuning to
12tet though.
Have you rendered any classical pieces in your Phi tuning, or is it intended
only for new compositions?

Marcel

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Marcel> Have you rendered any classical pieces in your Phi tuning, or is it intended only for new compositions?

Only new compositions...thanks for bring this up as I think it is a very fundamental difference in goal between my PHI scale and most your own (and, actually, most micro-tonal scales period).

>"I only meant it doesn't do JI perfect tuning like 1/1 5/4 3/2 etc. And that this piano sound makes this audible in this song."

True, shouldn't it be obvious that a non-JI tuning like mine isn't going to have loads of JI intervals? :-)

Then again, my scale works much better with a guitar than a piano and, again, I strongly reckon it has nothing to do with JI (the guitar is actually more in-tune with the harmonic series than the piano!)...so I don't think it's as simple as (paraphrased) "JI observes aligning overtones in a good/consonant manner and PHI doesn't".
BTW, there's no "JI tempering" go on as I'm not trying to approximate JI intervals but, rather, hitting PHI intervals that have nothing to do with JI dead-on.

I will say that 1.618 itself sounds a bit rough far as overtone alignment (even for guitar)...which is why I have recently began rounding it to 1.625 (13/8) instead...so even though I'm not using JI to create my scale JI does play a part in that alignment. So, actually, in this example, I'm tempering away from PHI to match JI, and not tempering JI to match PHI.

-Michael

No offense, but 12th root of PHI is my first attempt at developing a tuning
I have no idea if it is new or not.

Michael and Rick didn't think much of the 12th root idea so I thought I'd
try it.

And it is intended for new compositions. I've tacked the original post to
the end of this.

Chris

On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 2:56 PM, Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...> wrote:

>
>
> >
> > IMO a piano sound is not well suited to be used with alternative tunings.
> > it is too closely intertwined with 12tET.
> >
>
> Sorry but I must disagree with this.
> I like piano a lot in Just Intonation (as long as I don't mess up). Very
> natural sounding and much better than 12tet.
> I find piano to be about the most revealing instrument for tuning in it's
> initial attack.
> Though the sustained sound of the piano isn't that good to check tuning.
>
> I think the piano reveals the imperfection of Michaels Phi tuning.
> If I correctly interpreted Michaels intentions, he never claimed this to be
> a perfectly in tune (like JI) tuning, rather a tuning which sounds good in
> any key without comma shifts?
>
> Marcel
>
> [This is the scale I used - developed from a conversation on the tuning
> group.
>
> ! C:\Cakewalk\scales\
>
> 12throotofphi.scl
> !
> 12th root of phi
> 11
> !
> 69.42116
> 138.84232
> 208.26348
> 277.68464
> 347.10580
> 416.52696
> 485.94813
> 555.36929
> 624.79045
> 694.21161
> 763.63277
>
> The scale and midi is here
> http://clones.soonlabel.com/public/micro/12th-root-phi/
>
> The improvisation is here
>
> http://clones.soonlabel.com/public/micro/12th-root-phi/12th-root-phi.mp3
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I personally don't agree about piano and microtonality, though
when I first encountered it (by way of Michael Harrison's work)
I did very much feel that way. Not to imply that you'll get
over it, Carlo! To each his own.

I enjoyed this little improv.

-Carl

At 11:45 AM 5/3/2009, you wrote:
>IMO a piano sound is not well suited to be used with alternative tunings.
>it is too closely intertwined with 12tET.
>
>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "vaisvil" <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
>
>> The improvisation is here
>>
>> http://clones.soonlabel.com/public/micro/12th-root-phi/12th-root-phi.mp3
>>
>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "vaisvil" <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
>
> This is the scale I used - developed from a conversation on the tuning group.
>
> ! C:\Cakewalk\scales\12throotofphi.scl
> !
> 12th root of phi
> 11
> !
> 69.42116
> 138.84232
> 208.26348
> 277.68464
> 347.10580
> 416.52696
> 485.94813
> 555.36929
> 624.79045
> 694.21161
> 763.63277
>
> The scale and midi is here http://clones.soonlabel.com/public/micro/12th-root-phi/
>
> The improvisation is here
>
> http://clones.soonlabel.com/public/micro/12th-root-phi/12th-root-phi.mp3
>

Excellent tuning! Well I hope so, as it is almost identical to several tunings I use :-)

Notice how it can function as what I call a "shadow tuning": you've got Phi (maximally "other", a shadow, as the key interval, but you've got a bunch of Just intervals within tiny amounts, and the "4/3" and "3/2" are concretely flat enough so that they're saying "soft" while at the same time related by Just intervals to the other tones. 26/25, 13/12, 9/8, 11/9, 14/11, 11/8- you've got them all within a couple of cents.

Compare your tuning with the 14th root of 7/4. :-)

-Cameron Bobro

On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 1:04 AM, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:

> Thanks for the listen and comment Carl!
>

Michael Harrison rocks! I purchased two albums from him and enjoy them very
much thanks to a tip on this list.
It is something else to see him play too. (videos on youtube.)

>
>
> I personally don't agree about piano and microtonality, though
> when I first encountered it (by way of Michael Harrison's work)
> I did very much feel that way. Not to imply that you'll get
> over it, Carlo! To each his own.
>
> I enjoyed this little improv.
>
> -Carl
>
>
> At 11:45 AM 5/3/2009, you wrote:
> >IMO a piano sound is not well suited to be used with alternative tunings.
> >it is too closely intertwined with 12tET.
> >
> >--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com <MakeMicroMusic%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "vaisvil" <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
> >
> >> The improvisation is here
> >>
> >>
> http://clones.soonlabel.com/public/micro/12th-root-phi/12th-root-phi.mp3
> >>
> >
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Cameron,

Well, all those associations were totally by accident, especially since I
was aiming for a 12 note tuning... and it seems I ended up with 11.

I'll have to reload it in scala and have it generate the associations.

What interval is 7/4?

Thanks,

Chris

On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 1:13 AM, Cameron Bobro <misterbobro@...> wrote:

>
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com <MakeMicroMusic%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "vaisvil" <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
> >
> > This is the scale I used - developed from a conversation on the tuning
> group.
> >
> > ! C:\Cakewalk\scales\12throotofphi.scl
> > !
> > 12th root of phi
> > 11
> > !
> > 69.42116
> > 138.84232
> > 208.26348
> > 277.68464
> > 347.10580
> > 416.52696
> > 485.94813
> > 555.36929
> > 624.79045
> > 694.21161
> > 763.63277
> >
> > The scale and midi is here
> http://clones.soonlabel.com/public/micro/12th-root-phi/
> >
> > The improvisation is here
> >
> > http://clones.soonlabel.com/public/micro/12th-root-phi/12th-root-phi.mp3
> >
>
> Excellent tuning! Well I hope so, as it is almost identical to several
> tunings I use :-)
>
> Notice how it can function as what I call a "shadow tuning": you've got Phi
> (maximally "other", a shadow, as the key interval, but you've got a bunch of
> Just intervals within tiny amounts, and the "4/3" and "3/2" are concretely
> flat enough so that they're saying "soft" while at the same time related by
> Just intervals to the other tones. 26/25, 13/12, 9/8, 11/9, 14/11, 11/8-
> you've got them all within a couple of cents.
>
> Compare your tuning with the 14th root of 7/4. :-)
>
> -Cameron Bobro
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Cameron,
>
> Well, all those associations were totally by accident,

Doesn't matter- even if you make a tuning using ratios of postal codes divided by bra sizes, and it sounds right to you, there you go.

>especially >since I
> was aiming for a 12 note tuning... and it seems I ended up with 11.

It doesn't matter, as the step size is a generator. You could have a 1 interval tuning or a 313 interval tuning and it would work out to the same thing.

>
> I'll have to reload it in scala and have it generate the associations.
>
> What interval is 7/4?

7/4 is the "natural seventh", you'll recognize it as soon as you hear it. Everyone I've ever played it for immediately responds "blues!" or "jazz!", and I've had a couple of "India!" responses, too. In decimal frequency ratio it is 1.75- 968.8259 cents.

It is simply the seventh harmonic partial taken down by octaves, into the first octave. If you play a dyad, the fourth harmonic partial of the higher note (the one at 7/4) will be the same frequency as the seventh partial of the lower (the one at 1/1).( And the fourteenth and the eighth, and the 21st and the 12th, and so on.) The proportion of the vibration of the tones is simple (1.75 to 1), and harmonics blend into one in the audible range, so it's "Just Intonation".

At any rate if you make a 14th root of 7/4 tuning, you'll find that your 12th root of Phi is contained within it, with variations of a cent or two on the intervals, and if you throw into Scala the Just intervals I mentioned before, you'll find that both tunings have them within a couple of cents.

Synchronicity: a tune I put up here 10 days ago:

http://xenharmonic.ning.com/

is in 14th root of 7/4, it's called "Bamboo", on the playlist under Cameron Bobro. The other tune I have up there, "Ocean Intro", is in an 18-tone Pi tuning including Phi.

-Cameron Bobro