laptop sound I/O

Hey Micro-ers,

I'm in the market for a new laptop, but I wanted to do lots of research
first. I'm thinking something light, but I prefer at least a 14" screen. My
Dell is ancient now, Inspiron 8200, still works fine but is heavy, and is 6
years old! I would go with Dell, but I'm not sure of their quality level as
a current company. So, it's time to get educated.

It seems a lot of laptops are now using soundcards which only have 2 jacks:
"headphone out/mic in". The disadvantage of only having "mic in" w/o having
"line in" as well is that "mic in" tends to be lower quality, and the
impedence and gain combos on "mic in" tend to make the sound much less clean
than those of "line in". This jives with my experience, and with every
audiophile/engineer site that I've seen---use a mixer/preamp and go "line
in"

Is this old wisdom true any more of the newest laptops? If so, what gives?
Why the direction towards cheaper audio fidelity? Are there any laptops out
there that still have mic AND line jacks? And, jeez, can one find serial
ports _at all_ anymore? I still use them occasionally and they work
fine---why have they been abolished?

And, would it be worth it to get a two-jack only laptop and use USB sound (I
would guess not, but maybe people around here are having positive
experiences with USB outboard cards)...or how about PCMCIA sound cards?
Anyone having positive experiences with those? And, does anyone around here
use an RME Hammerfall, and do those work well with laptops? I know they are
well supported under ALSA, so that's a plus...

Thanks,

Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.akjmusic.com
http://www.untwelve.org

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Aaron,

I doubt you'll have much luck finding a machine with line in (or line out). Maybe you can still find one with a serial port, but I'm not optimistic about that either. Not much need anymore with USB and Firewire.

I'm very happy with my PreSonus Firebox (http://bit.ly/L2QV). Balanced in, balanced out (all .25-inch). Just did my first gig with it with realtime SuperCollider, and it came out very well. I am considering getting adapter cables for the output though, .25-inch male to DIN female, to make it easier for the sound guy to hook me up to a PA -- this ought to work as well as a direct box. At home, I use it with powered speakers.

- Dave

Aaron Johnson wrote:
> Hey Micro-ers,
> > I'm in the market for a new laptop, but I wanted to do lots of research
> first. I'm thinking something light, but I prefer at least a 14" screen. My
> Dell is ancient now, Inspiron 8200, still works fine but is heavy, and is 6
> years old! I would go with Dell, but I'm not sure of their quality level as
> a current company. So, it's time to get educated.
> > It seems a lot of laptops are now using soundcards which only have 2 jacks:
> "headphone out/mic in". The disadvantage of only having "mic in" w/o having
> "line in" as well is that "mic in" tends to be lower quality, and the
> impedence and gain combos on "mic in" tend to make the sound much less clean
> than those of "line in". This jives with my experience, and with every
> audiophile/engineer site that I've seen---use a mixer/preamp and go "line
> in"
> > Is this old wisdom true any more of the newest laptops? If so, what gives?
> Why the direction towards cheaper audio fidelity? Are there any laptops out
> there that still have mic AND line jacks? And, jeez, can one find serial
> ports _at all_ anymore? I still use them occasionally and they work
> fine---why have they been abolished?
> > And, would it be worth it to get a two-jack only laptop and use USB sound (I
> would guess not, but maybe people around here are having positive
> experiences with USB outboard cards)...or how about PCMCIA sound cards?
> Anyone having positive experiences with those? And, does anyone around here
> use an RME Hammerfall, and do those work well with laptops? I know they are
> well supported under ALSA, so that's a plus...
> > Thanks,
> > Aaron Krister Johnson
> http://www.akjmusic.com
> http://www.untwelve.org
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > ------------------------------------
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > -- ~DaveSeidel = [
http://mysterybear.net,
http://daveseidel.tumblr.com,
http://twitter.com/DaveSeidel
];

Hey Aaron,

On Tue, 2009-01-13 at 14:12 -0600, Aaron Johnson wrote:
> Hey Micro-ers,
[ snip ]
> there that still have mic AND line jacks? And, jeez, can one find
> serial
> ports _at all_ anymore? I still use them occasionally and they work
> fine---why have they been abolished?
>

Yeah, I'm pretty sure if you want a serial port for your laptop, the
idea now is that you get one of those USB to serial adapters (I have one
-- works fine). They probably stopped putting them on the laptops
because of the pain of putting the connector(s) on the back (notice you
won't find connectors on the backs of many laptops these days -- it
might be to improve the structure of the case) and because not that many
people were using them anymore.

> [snip]
> use an RME Hammerfall, and do those work well with laptops? I know
> they are
> well supported under ALSA, so that's a plus...

Interesting you should mention ALSA -- do you run Linux? :-)

Jay

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Jay Rinkel <jrinkel@...> wrote:
>
> Hey Aaron,
>
> On Tue, 2009-01-13 at 14:12 -0600, Aaron Johnson wrote:
> > Hey Micro-ers,
> [ snip ]
> > there that still have mic AND line jacks? And, jeez, can one find
> > serial
> > ports _at all_ anymore? I still use them occasionally and they work
> > fine---why have they been abolished?
> >
>
> Yeah, I'm pretty sure if you want a serial port for your laptop, the
> idea now is that you get one of those USB to serial adapters (I have one
> -- works fine). They probably stopped putting them on the laptops
> because of the pain of putting the connector(s) on the back (notice you
> won't find connectors on the backs of many laptops these days -- it
> might be to improve the structure of the case) and because not that many
> people were using them anymore.

That's what I figured.I still am amazed that they are phasingout 3
jack built-in sound cards though. c'mon, what's the deal with that?
Do they need to push outboard hardware or something?

> > [snip]
> > use an RME Hammerfall, and do those work well with laptops? I know
> > they are
> > well supported under ALSA, so that's a plus...
>
> Interesting you should mention ALSA -- do you run Linux? :-)

yeah, currently I'm on an Arch Linux system on my old Dell Inspiron
8200. I've used Linux since the olden days (1997) so I'm a veteran
with many scars! :-) I've done Slackware, Gentoo, Zenwalk, Vector,
Ubuntu, Debian, PCLinuxOS, openSUSE and Arch, and I think I've learned
that they all suck and are good in different ways (that's Linux for ya).

Arch is stable and fast, but not for Grandma. Packaging system
(pacman) is good, too. Ubuntu is for grandma (not really, but you know
what I mean) but isn't stable IMO, and speed is ok. Fastest might be
Gentoo, but, man, compiling everything gets old. Debian (and thus
Ubuntu) has the greatest packaging system, APT, the most packages of
any distro, which means more music apps, too, but---I can't stand
their zealous purity with licensing: makes doing anything practical
like getting online with a wireless card that needs corporate firmware
an unnecessary chore. And I wish they had an i686 package
branch---they have this thing for being 'universal' so they compile
for processors that noone uses anymore (like the Alpha) but they won't
compile packages optimized for Pentium pro and its descendants!

Ah, anyway...let's continue in metatuning if you want to say more.

-AKJ.

My acer aspire 5102 has line in and has served me well since Oct 06. No com port though. I bet you get one cheap on ebay. Mine is dual core AMD Turion T50 64 bit and comes with XP media center edition.
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: "Aaron Johnson" <aaron@...>

Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 14:12:43
To: <makemicromusic@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [MMM] laptop sound I/O

Hey Micro-ers,

I'm in the market for a new laptop, but I wanted to do lots of research
first. I'm thinking something light, but I prefer at least a 14" screen. My
Dell is ancient now, Inspiron 8200, still works fine but is heavy, and is 6
years old! I would go with Dell, but I'm not sure of their quality level as
a current company. So, it's time to get educated.

It seems a lot of laptops are now using soundcards which only have 2 jacks:
"headphone out/mic in". The disadvantage of only having "mic in" w/o having
"line in" as well is that "mic in" tends to be lower quality, and the
impedence and gain combos on "mic in" tend to make the sound much less clean
than those of "line in". This jives with my experience, and with every
audiophile/engineer site that I've seen---use a mixer/preamp and go "line
in"

Is this old wisdom true any more of the newest laptops? If so, what gives?
Why the direction towards cheaper audio fidelity? Are there any laptops out
there that still have mic AND line jacks? And, jeez, can one find serial
ports _at all_ anymore? I still use them occasionally and they work
fine---why have they been abolished?

And, would it be worth it to get a two-jack only laptop and use USB sound (I
would guess not, but maybe people around here are having positive
experiences with USB outboard cards)...or how about PCMCIA sound cards?
Anyone having positive experiences with those? And, does anyone around here
use an RME Hammerfall, and do those work well with laptops? I know they are
well supported under ALSA, so that's a plus...

Thanks,

Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.akjmusic.com
http://www.untwelve.org

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Be careful with USB-Com converters. Not all of them are suitable for heavy traffic. I had to use PCMCIA Com Adapter for reliable communication with single-chip microcontroller programmer (ASUS laptop, WinXP).
Milan

I would recommend a laptop with both USB and Firewire (IEEE 1394) interfaces so you can choose a quality external interface for audio. I wouldn't trust the built in audio for high quality, especially from any second tier brands.

John Loffink
The Microtonal Synthesis Web Site
http://www.microtonal-synthesis.com
The Wavemakers Synthesizer Web Site
http://www.wavemakers-synth.com

aum wrote:
> Be careful with USB-Com converters. Not all of them are suitable for > heavy traffic. I had to use PCMCIA Com Adapter for reliable > communication with single-chip microcontroller programmer (ASUS laptop, > WinXP).
> Milan
>
>
>

The new trend in non-professional audio interfaces seems to be what you might call "soft-plug"s. When you plug in a cable, the audio driver asks you what type of connection you just plugged in (line in, mic in, headphone, speaker out, digital out, etc.) and supposedly adjusts the signal according to your response. I've only seen this kind of software running under Windows and I have no idea how the audio interface would behave under Linux. Not to mention, my personal experience is built-in laptop audio interfaces are only good for operating system sound effects. I plan to get a decent USB audio interface myself.

At 05:26 AM 1/14/2009, you wrote:
>Be careful with USB-Com converters. Not all of them are suitable for
>heavy traffic. I had to use PCMCIA Com Adapter for reliable
>communication with single-chip microcontroller programmer (ASUS laptop,
>WinXP).
>Milan

Having helped write the linux driver for the Keyspan USB serial
adapters (as well as the Windows installers that do an end-run
around the hardware manager to give you a good experience no matter
if you plug the device in before or after installing the drivers),
I can tell you in a completely unbiased fashion that the Keyspan
adapters are the best on the market, by far. :)

-Carl

At 05:54 AM 1/14/2009, you wrote:
>I would recommend a laptop with both USB and Firewire (IEEE 1394)
>interfaces so you can choose a quality external interface for audio. I
>wouldn't trust the built in audio for high quality, especially from any
>second tier brands.
>
>John Loffink
>The Microtonal Synthesis Web Site
>http://www.microtonal-synthesis.com
>The Wavemakers Synthesizer Web Site
>http://www.wavemakers-synth.com

Firewire is marked for death. I wouldn't buy a FW-only interface
at this point.

-Carl

Especially with USB 3 on the horizon.

On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 11:56 AM, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:

> At 05:54 AM 1/14/2009, you wrote:
> >I would recommend a laptop with both USB and Firewire (IEEE 1394)
> >interfaces so you can choose a quality external interface for audio. I
> >wouldn't trust the built in audio for high quality, especially from any
> >second tier brands.
> >
> >John Loffink
> >The Microtonal Synthesis Web Site
> >http://www.microtonal-synthesis.com
> >The Wavemakers Synthesizer Web Site
> >http://www.wavemakers-synth.com
>
> Firewire is marked for death. I wouldn't buy a FW-only interface
> at this point.
>
> -Carl
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

What is the resoning behind the claim that on board soundcards sound worse than outboard USB audio interfaces? I've had a terrible souncard onboard for sure, but I've also had excellent quality. Furthermore, wouldn't there be greater latency for realtime?

I'm not terribly impressed with the USB audio interface success stories. I've not heard any. And who wants to use more desk real estate for another unit?

-AKJ

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Vaisvil" <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
>
> Especially with USB 3 on the horizon.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 11:56 AM, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
>
> > At 05:54 AM 1/14/2009, you wrote:
> > >I would recommend a laptop with both USB and Firewire (IEEE 1394)
> > >interfaces so you can choose a quality external interface for audio. I
> > >wouldn't trust the built in audio for high quality, especially from any
> > >second tier brands.
> > >
> > >John Loffink
> > >The Microtonal Synthesis Web Site
> > >http://www.microtonal-synthesis.com
> > >The Wavemakers Synthesizer Web Site
> > >http://www.wavemakers-synth.com
> >
> > Firewire is marked for death. I wouldn't buy a FW-only interface
> > at this point.
> >
> > -Carl
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

I think you miht be able to 192k etc on usb. But on board chips are doing that too in some cases. I myself was quite happy with the acer reltek and asio4all. But I'm not an audiophile.
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: "Aaron Krister Johnson" <aaron@...>

Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 17:30:12
To: <MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [MMM] laptop sound I/O

What is the resoning behind the claim that on board soundcards sound worse than outboard USB audio interfaces? I've had a terrible souncard onboard for sure, but I've also had excellent quality. Furthermore, wouldn't there be greater latency for realtime?

I'm not terribly impressed with the USB audio interface success stories. I've not heard any. And who wants to use more desk real estate for another unit?

-AKJ

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Vaisvil" <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
>
> Especially with USB 3 on the horizon.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 11:56 AM, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
>
> > At 05:54 AM 1/14/2009, you wrote:
> > >I would recommend a laptop with both USB and Firewire (IEEE 1394)
> > >interfaces so you can choose a quality external interface for audio. I
> > >wouldn't trust the built in audio for high quality, especially from any
> > >second tier brands.
> > >
> > >John Loffink
> > >The Microtonal Synthesis Web Site
> > >http://www.microtonal-synthesis.com
> > >The Wavemakers Synthesizer Web Site
> > >http://www.wavemakers-synth.com
> >
> > Firewire is marked for death. I wouldn't buy a FW-only interface
> > at this point.
> >
> > -Carl
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Onboard soundcards often sound worse because motherboard manufacturers
don't always go to the trouble needed to properly shield the sound
card, and as such they often pick up noise from the USB ports, from
the trackpad, from the power cable, and just noisy sources in general.
There's no specific reason why onboard soundcards HAVE to be worse,
it's just that motherboard manufacturers don't usually set that to be
a priority. I'm a Firewire interface fan, myself.

-Mike

On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 12:30 PM, Aaron Krister Johnson
<aaron@...> wrote:
> What is the resoning behind the claim that on board soundcards sound worse
> than outboard USB audio interfaces? I've had a terrible souncard onboard for
> sure, but I've also had excellent quality. Furthermore, wouldn't there be
> greater latency for realtime?
>
> I'm not terribly impressed with the USB audio interface success stories.
> I've not heard any. And who wants to use more desk real estate for another
> unit?
>
> -AKJ
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Vaisvil" <chrisvaisvil@...>
> wrote:
>>
>> Especially with USB 3 on the horizon.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 11:56 AM, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
>>
>> > At 05:54 AM 1/14/2009, you wrote:
>> > >I would recommend a laptop with both USB and Firewire (IEEE 1394)
>> > >interfaces so you can choose a quality external interface for audio. I
>> > >wouldn't trust the built in audio for high quality, especially from any
>> > >second tier brands.
>> > >
>> > >John Loffink
>> > >The Microtonal Synthesis Web Site
>> > >http://www.microtonal-synthesis.com
>> > >The Wavemakers Synthesizer Web Site
>> > >http://www.wavemakers-synth.com
>> >
>> > Firewire is marked for death. I wouldn't buy a FW-only interface
>> > at this point.
>> >
>> > -Carl
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>
>

Aaron wrote:

>What is the resoning behind the claim that on board soundcards sound
>worse than outboard USB audio interfaces? I've had a terrible souncard
>onboard for sure, but I've also had excellent quality. Furthermore,
>wouldn't there be greater latency for realtime?

Who made the claim? But there certainly is a bunch of EMI inside
a computer chassis, while most interfaces I've seen use external
D/C adapters, so I could see the argument maybe. More importantly,
though, you can't fit XLRs in a PCI slot, so you need some sort
of breakout box anyway.

In theory, the PCI bus is faster and less chatty than USB, but
it's not significant. Latency is effectively zero on a modern
USB system.

>I'm not terribly impressed with the USB audio interface success
>stories. I've not heard any.

I have a Roland UA-1000 (no longer made, alas), which is basically
as good as there is. I've known guys who've spent tens of thousands
on mic preamps and such for their ProTools studio, but I doubt the
quality is appreciably better than a UA-1000.

The current take seems to be the M-Audio Fast Track Ultra. I just
got one. It's much more commodity than, and I doubt as good as,
the UA-1000. But it's also smaller and cheaper. I haven't been
able to test it yet, due to the drivers not installing on Vista
the first time I tried. I should try again.

There is also a new MOTU box with USB on it, which is the upmarket
solution. I haven't played with one yet.

>And who wants to use more desk real estate for another unit?

The other advantage is you can use them with a laptop, take them
to a friend's house, rack mount them for easy access to knobs, etc.

-Carl

At 09:37 AM 1/17/2009, you wrote:
>I think you miht be able to 192k etc on usb.

Christ, these sample rates are ridiculous. The argument
for anything over 48 is quite tenuous, but certainly there
is no justification whatsoever for anything beyond 96.

-Carl

I agree. But they need to do something to sell new hardware....
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: Carl Lumma <carl@...>

Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 12:17:15
To: <MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [MMM] laptop sound I/O

At 09:37 AM 1/17/2009, you wrote:
>I think you miht be able to 192k etc on usb.

Christ, these sample rates are ridiculous. The argument
for anything over 48 is quite tenuous, but certainly there
is no justification whatsoever for anything beyond 96.

-Carl

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I agree. Even the "higher sampling rates prevent aliasing problems"
argument buckles completely when you get past 96k. I've never
understood the point of it, unless we're making music for cats and
birds now.

-Mike

On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 3:17 PM, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
> At 09:37 AM 1/17/2009, you wrote:
>>I think you miht be able to 192k etc on usb.
>
> Christ, these sample rates are ridiculous. The argument
> for anything over 48 is quite tenuous, but certainly there
> is no justification whatsoever for anything beyond 96.
>
> -Carl
>
>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
>
> At 09:37 AM 1/17/2009, you wrote:
> >I think you miht be able to 192k etc on usb.
>
> Christ, these sample rates are ridiculous. The argument
> for anything over 48 is quite tenuous, but certainly there
> is no justification whatsoever for anything beyond 96.
>
> -Carl

Lower latency is one argument for higher sampling rates (buffers are
measured in samples).

As far as synthesis and processing, extreme sample rates are great,
internal oversampling for good sound software is standard. Aliasing
just sounds like crap for one thing.

Extreme internal bit rates are much rarer, the Algorithmix EQ plugins
are the only examples I can think of. They use up to 81 bits
internally, IIRC, and are widely considered not only the best computer
EQs but some of the best EQs of any kind (they are stunning, you can
try the demos for 14 days). They also oversample internally, 8x IIRC,
which is a much more common process.

But 192k ADDA for consumer gear is pretty dubious. 192k must be more
error prone (clocking) compared to say 48k, and combined with cheap
analog circuitry, there's no way the ADDA is going to sound great.

That being said I have a new 192k consumer toy for travel, a USB ADDA,
which sounds very good and has lots of gizmos considering it only cost
150 dollars. The MIDI latency is unbelievably fast for consumer laptop
with USB. In the year 2009 a musician should not settle for more than
a couple of milliseconds of latency. Not counting the nanoseconds
responses of real analog gear (which does not include most of what
people call "analog"), a laptop should be hardware-quick today.

By the way an ideal practical rate for ADDA was thoroughly reasoned
out and proposed long ago, and as far as I can tell it still holds.
58k or 64k or something around there, can't remember exactly.