Daily experiments 22, indian d , adaptive 12 equal

Ok,

Here is a collection of 3 using z3ta+ under a pseudonym "charlie"

22 notes per octave using the scale Carl sent me - Carl is this EDO?

This piece was composed using that tuning. It is repeated at various tempi
and once reversed,

http://clones.soonlabel.com/mp3/daily20081121b.mp3

Then I used the z3ta+ supplied indian_d.scl and ran the same midi file
through to VSTi

http://clones.soonlabel.com/mp3/daily20081126indiand.mp3

Then I set the VSTi to 12 equal and turned on adaptive tuning at 100% and
ran the same midi file again.

http://clones.soonlabel.com/mp3/daily20081126j12adap.mp3

Not a great composition but this is fun to do.

Chris

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Chris wrote:
>Ok,
>
>Here is a collection of 3 using z3ta+ under a pseudonym "charlie"
>
>22 notes per octave using the scale Carl sent me - Carl is this EDO?

Yup!

>This piece was composed using that tuning. It is repeated at various tempi
>and once reversed,
>
>http://clones.soonlabel.com/mp3/daily20081121b.mp3

Nice! Would make a great cut in a movie soundtrack.

>Then I used the z3ta+ supplied indian_d.scl and ran the same midi file
>through to VSTi
>
>http://clones.soonlabel.com/mp3/daily20081126indiand.mp3

Doesn't seem like the same MIDI file, but anyway, me no likey,
sorry.

>Then I set the VSTi to 12 equal and turned on adaptive tuning at 100% and
>ran the same midi file again.
>
>http://clones.soonlabel.com/mp3/daily20081126j12adap.mp3

Not sure what kind of adaptive tuning z3ta+ uses (hermode?), but
it'll only do something when there's harmony present in the music.
Don't like this one either, sorry.

-Carl

   I get the ODD feeling z3ta does not tune according to octaves correctly.

IE if you input 12 tone music, z3ta will treat
A) a second octave C IE C6 as the 13th tone in 22tet IE less than once octave up when it SHOULD instead treat the C6 as the 22nd note

This would explain why you get the harmony problems.  You need to fine-tune the notes to fit the new scales yourself when changing between scales.

Also note...OPENMPT has the exact same problem.

     Carl and others...do you know of any good programs to re-tune MIDI files "according to nearest frequency in the new/destination scale" rather than the # of the notes away from C5?

   Personally...I find myself having to re-tune MIDI files when switching tunings with anything more different than A) the same # of notes per octave and B) very similar intervals

-Michael

--- On Sun, 11/30/08, Carl Lumma <carl@...g> wrote:
From: Carl Lumma <carl@...>
Subject: Re: [MMM] Daily experiments 22, indian d , adaptive 12 equal
To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, November 30, 2008, 4:25 PM

Chris wrote:

>Ok,

>

>Here is a collection of 3 using z3ta+ under a pseudonym "charlie"

>

>22 notes per octave using the scale Carl sent me - Carl is this EDO?

Yup!

>This piece was composed using that tuning. It is repeated at various tempi

>and once reversed,

>

>http://clones. soonlabel. com/mp3/daily200 81121b.mp3

Nice! Would make a great cut in a movie soundtrack.

>Then I used the z3ta+ supplied indian_d.scl and ran the same midi file

>through to VSTi

>

>http://clones. soonlabel. com/mp3/daily200 81126indiand. mp3

Doesn't seem like the same MIDI file, but anyway, me no likey,

sorry.

>Then I set the VSTi to 12 equal and turned on adaptive tuning at 100% and

>ran the same midi file again.

>

>http://clones. soonlabel. com/mp3/daily200 81126j12adap. mp3

Not sure what kind of adaptive tuning z3ta+ uses (hermode?), but

it'll only do something when there's harmony present in the music.

Don't like this one either, sorry.

-Carl

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Michael wrote:
> I get the ODD feeling z3ta does not tune according to octaves correctly.
>
>IE if you input 12 tone music, z3ta will treat
>A) a second octave C IE C6 as the 13th tone in 22tet IE less than once
>octave up when it SHOULD instead treat the C6 as the 22nd note

Why should it do that? How would you get to notes 13-21?

>This would explain why you get the harmony problems. You need to
>fine-tune the notes to fit the new scales yourself when changing
>between scales.

But the first sample had no harmony. The two 12-tone/oct
versions following seemed like they might have been stretched out,
which would be the result of putting 22-ET music in a 12-tone
scale, but they both had explicit harmony, so I have a hard time
believing they were from the same file as the first example.

>Also note...OPENMPT has the exact same problem.
>
> Carl and others...do you know of any good programs to re-tune
>MIDI files "according to nearest frequency in the new/destination
>scale" rather than the # of the notes away from C5?

Sure... just make a 12-tone .scl file containing the nearest
approximations to 12-ET from within 22-ET. This can be done
very easily in scala with the command "equal 12" followed by
the command "quantize 22".

> Personally...I find myself having to re-tune MIDI files when
>switching tunings with anything more different than A) the same # of
>notes per octave and B) very similar intervals

MIDI has no semantic representation of the music. It's just
note numbers from 1-128 (0-127 actually). Even in normal 12-ET
music, it doesn't know where the octaves are.

-Carl

> I get the ODD feeling z3ta does not tune according to octaves correctly.

>

>IE if you input 12 tone music, z3ta will treat

>A) a second octave C IE C6 as the 13th tone in 22tet IE less than once

>octave up when it SHOULD instead treat the C6 as the 22nd note

---Why should it do that? How would you get to notes 13-21?
c6,c#6,d6,d#6,e6,f6,f#6,g6,g#6.....a6 will end up being the "octave" instead of c6

    The problem is it appears to map by the # of notes in the scale north of the middle C.  So while C6 should = the 23rd note in 22TET (first note of second octave)...c6 becomes the 13th note in 22TET instead (which is obviously much closer to a 5th than the desired octave).
__________________________________________________________________
----Sure... just make a 12-tone .scl file containing the nearest

approximations to 12-ET from within 22-ET. This can be done

very easily in scala with the command "equal 12" followed by

the command "quantize 22".
  OK, cool/got it thanks for the tip!

---MIDI has no semantic representation of the music. It's just
---
note numbers from 1-128 (0-127 actually). Even in normal 12-ET
---
music, it doesn't know where the octaves are.
  True...but that does not guarantee the VST-i plug-in synth IE Z3ta also complies to this standard.  Remember, it is the SYNTH, and not the DAW itself...that often loads and interprets the .scl file.  My guess is the synth itself has the problem described above.

    And, as for the problem with melodies becoming non-melodic/in-different-order when Clones swapped scales...you are right it may well have been a different MIDI file as well. 

-Michael

--- On Sun, 11/30/08, Carl Lumma <carl@lumma.org> wrote:
From: Carl Lumma <carl@...>
Subject: Re: [MMM] Daily experiments 22, indian d , adaptive 12 equal
To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, November 30, 2008, 10:15 PM

Michael wrote:

> I get the ODD feeling z3ta does not tune according to octaves correctly.

>

>IE if you input 12 tone music, z3ta will treat

>A) a second octave C IE C6 as the 13th tone in 22tet IE less than once

>octave up when it SHOULD instead treat the C6 as the 22nd note

Why should it do that? How would you get to notes 13-21?

>This would explain why you get the harmony problems. You need to

>fine-tune the notes to fit the new scales yourself when changing

>between scales.

But the first sample had no harmony. The two 12-tone/oct

versions following seemed like they might have been stretched out,

which would be the result of putting 22-ET music in a 12-tone

scale, but they both had explicit harmony, so I have a hard time

believing they were from the same file as the first example.

>Also note...OPENMPT has the exact same problem.

>

> Carl and others...do you know of any good programs to re-tune

>MIDI files "according to nearest frequency in the new/destination

>scale" rather than the # of the notes away from C5?

Sure... just make a 12-tone .scl file containing the nearest

approximations to 12-ET from within 22-ET. This can be done

very easily in scala with the command "equal 12" followed by

the command "quantize 22".

> Personally.. .I find myself having to re-tune MIDI files when

>switching tunings with anything more different than A) the same # of

>notes per octave and B) very similar intervals

MIDI has no semantic representation of the music. It's just

note numbers from 1-128 (0-127 actually). Even in normal 12-ET

music, it doesn't know where the octaves are.

-Carl

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks Carl for the listen and comments.

It does make sense that the others didn't work for you since they were not
composed in the scale used.
I did find the textures and contrast interesting. But I do like the 22 edo
the best myself as well.

Chris

On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 7:25 PM, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:

> Chris wrote:
> >Ok,
> >
> >Here is a collection of 3 using z3ta+ under a pseudonym "charlie"
> >
> >22 notes per octave using the scale Carl sent me - Carl is this EDO?
>
> Yup!
>
> >This piece was composed using that tuning. It is repeated at various tempi
> >and once reversed,
> >
> >http://clones.soonlabel.com/mp3/daily20081121b.mp3
>
> Nice! Would make a great cut in a movie soundtrack.
>
> >Then I used the z3ta+ supplied indian_d.scl and ran the same midi file
> >through to VSTi
> >
> >http://clones.soonlabel.com/mp3/daily20081126indiand.mp3
>
> Doesn't seem like the same MIDI file, but anyway, me no likey,
> sorry.
>
> >Then I set the VSTi to 12 equal and turned on adaptive tuning at 100% and
> >ran the same midi file again.
> >
> >http://clones.soonlabel.com/mp3/daily20081126j12adap.mp3
>
> Not sure what kind of adaptive tuning z3ta+ uses (hermode?), but
> it'll only do something when there's harmony present in the music.
> Don't like this one either, sorry.
>
> -Carl
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Not sure I'm following all of this but I'll try to give some answers.

1 Z3ta loads the scala file - DAW (sonar in this case) has not a clue a
different tuning is being used.
2 The "different midi files" were in fact the exact same. All I did was load
a different scala tuning into Z3ta
3 Can't we test if octaves are accurately generated?

On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 1:41 AM, Michael Sheiman <djtrancendance@...>wrote:

>
> > I get the ODD feeling z3ta does not tune according to octaves correctly.
>
> >
>
> >IE if you input 12 tone music, z3ta will treat
>
> >A) a second octave C IE C6 as the 13th tone in 22tet IE less than once
>
> >octave up when it SHOULD instead treat the C6 as the 22nd note
>
> ---Why should it do that? How would you get to notes 13-21?
> c6,c#6,d6,d#6,e6,f6,f#6,g6,g#6.....a6 will end up being the "octave"
> instead of c6
>
> The problem is it appears to map by the # of notes in the scale north
> of the middle C. So while C6 should = the 23rd note in 22TET (first note of
> second octave)...c6 becomes the 13th note in 22TET instead (which is
> obviously much closer to a 5th than the desired octave).
> __________________________________________________________
> ----Sure... just make a 12-tone .scl file containing the nearest
>
> approximations to 12-ET from within 22-ET. This can be done
>
> very easily in scala with the command "equal 12" followed by
>
> the command "quantize 22".
> OK, cool/got it thanks for the tip!
>
> ---MIDI has no semantic representation of the music. It's just
> ---
> note numbers from 1-128 (0-127 actually). Even in normal 12-ET
> ---
> music, it doesn't know where the octaves are.
> True...but that does not guarantee the VST-i plug-in synth IE Z3ta also
> complies to this standard. Remember, it is the SYNTH, and not the DAW
> itself...that often loads and interprets the .scl file. My guess is the
> synth itself has the problem described above.
>
> And, as for the problem with melodies becoming
> non-melodic/in-different-order when Clones swapped scales...you are right it
> may well have been a different MIDI file as well.
>
> -Michael
>
> --- On Sun, 11/30/08, Carl Lumma <carl@... <carl%40lumma.org>>
> wrote:
> From: Carl Lumma <carl@... <carl%40lumma.org>>
> Subject: Re: [MMM] Daily experiments 22, indian d , adaptive 12 equal
> To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com <MakeMicroMusic%40yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sunday, November 30, 2008, 10:15 PM
>
>
> Michael wrote:
>
> > I get the ODD feeling z3ta does not tune according to octaves correctly.
>
> >
>
> >IE if you input 12 tone music, z3ta will treat
>
> >A) a second octave C IE C6 as the 13th tone in 22tet IE less than once
>
> >octave up when it SHOULD instead treat the C6 as the 22nd note
>
> Why should it do that? How would you get to notes 13-21?
>
> >This would explain why you get the harmony problems. You need to
>
> >fine-tune the notes to fit the new scales yourself when changing
>
> >between scales.
>
> But the first sample had no harmony. The two 12-tone/oct
>
> versions following seemed like they might have been stretched out,
>
> which would be the result of putting 22-ET music in a 12-tone
>
> scale, but they both had explicit harmony, so I have a hard time
>
> believing they were from the same file as the first example.
>
> >Also note...OPENMPT has the exact same problem.
>
> >
>
> > Carl and others...do you know of any good programs to re-tune
>
> >MIDI files "according to nearest frequency in the new/destination
>
> >scale" rather than the # of the notes away from C5?
>
> Sure... just make a 12-tone .scl file containing the nearest
>
> approximations to 12-ET from within 22-ET. This can be done
>
> very easily in scala with the command "equal 12" followed by
>
> the command "quantize 22".
>
> > Personally.. .I find myself having to re-tune MIDI files when
>
> >switching tunings with anything more different than A) the same # of
>
> >notes per octave and B) very similar intervals
>
> MIDI has no semantic representation of the music. It's just
>
> note numbers from 1-128 (0-127 actually). Even in normal 12-ET
>
> music, it doesn't know where the octaves are.
>
> -Carl
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

---1 Z3ta loads the scala file - DAW (sonar in this case) has not a clue a

---different tuning is being used.
That's what I expected...and what could easily be causing the problem.

---
3 Can't we test if octaves are accurately generated?
    Sure. 

    Make a short arpeggio using 12TET tuning which uses the note c5 (middle c), g5, and c6 (c one octave up).

   Now play the same song, but with the 24TET tuning loaded.  If the program is smart, it will sound EXACTLY the same (IE it will find 12TET within 24TET)...if not everything except the root note (c5) will sound MUCH lower.

   Also, to note, I loved your first 22TET example, but the second did not quite work for me as it sounded too convoluted, almost as if there are 2 different scales being played at once.  For sure though, it's interesting to hear how the slight de-tuning from 12TET bends the moods in 22TET and it does sound quite fresh.

-Michael

--- On Mon, 12/1/08, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
From: Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MMM] Daily experiments 22, indian d , adaptive 12 equal
To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, December 1, 2008, 4:11 AM

Not sure I'm following all of this but I'll try to give some answers.

1 Z3ta loads the scala file - DAW (sonar in this case) has not a clue a

different tuning is being used.

2 The "different midi files" were in fact the exact same. All I did was load

a different scala tuning into Z3ta

3 Can't we test if octaves are accurately generated?

On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 1:41 AM, Michael Sheiman <djtrancendance@ yahoo.com>wrote:

>

> > I get the ODD feeling z3ta does not tune according to octaves correctly.

>

> >

>

> >IE if you input 12 tone music, z3ta will treat

>

> >A) a second octave C IE C6 as the 13th tone in 22tet IE less than once

>

> >octave up when it SHOULD instead treat the C6 as the 22nd note

>

> ---Why should it do that? How would you get to notes 13-21?

> c6,c#6,d6,d# 6,e6,f6,f# 6,g6,g#6. ....a6 will end up being the "octave"

> instead of c6

>

> The problem is it appears to map by the # of notes in the scale north

> of the middle C. So while C6 should = the 23rd note in 22TET (first note of

> second octave)...c6 becomes the 13th note in 22TET instead (which is

> obviously much closer to a 5th than the desired octave).

> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

> ----Sure... just make a 12-tone .scl file containing the nearest

>

> approximations to 12-ET from within 22-ET. This can be done

>

> very easily in scala with the command "equal 12" followed by

>

> the command "quantize 22".

> OK, cool/got it thanks for the tip!

>

> ---MIDI has no semantic representation of the music. It's just

> ---

> note numbers from 1-128 (0-127 actually). Even in normal 12-ET

> ---

> music, it doesn't know where the octaves are.

> True...but that does not guarantee the VST-i plug-in synth IE Z3ta also

> complies to this standard. Remember, it is the SYNTH, and not the DAW

> itself...that often loads and interprets the .scl file. My guess is the

> synth itself has the problem described above.

>

> And, as for the problem with melodies becoming

> non-melodic/ in-different- order when Clones swapped scales...you are right it

> may well have been a different MIDI file as well.

>

> -Michael

>

> --- On Sun, 11/30/08, Carl Lumma <carl@... <carl%40lumma. org>>

> wrote:

> From: Carl Lumma <carl@... <carl%40lumma. org>>

> Subject: Re: [MMM] Daily experiments 22, indian d , adaptive 12 equal

> To: MakeMicroMusic@ yahoogroups. com <MakeMicroMusic% 40yahoogroups. com>

> Date: Sunday, November 30, 2008, 10:15 PM

>

>

> Michael wrote:

>

> > I get the ODD feeling z3ta does not tune according to octaves correctly.

>

> >

>

> >IE if you input 12 tone music, z3ta will treat

>

> >A) a second octave C IE C6 as the 13th tone in 22tet IE less than once

>

> >octave up when it SHOULD instead treat the C6 as the 22nd note

>

> Why should it do that? How would you get to notes 13-21?

>

> >This would explain why you get the harmony problems. You need to

>

> >fine-tune the notes to fit the new scales yourself when changing

>

> >between scales.

>

> But the first sample had no harmony. The two 12-tone/oct

>

> versions following seemed like they might have been stretched out,

>

> which would be the result of putting 22-ET music in a 12-tone

>

> scale, but they both had explicit harmony, so I have a hard time

>

> believing they were from the same file as the first example.

>

> >Also note...OPENMPT has the exact same problem.

>

> >

>

> > Carl and others...do you know of any good programs to re-tune

>

> >MIDI files "according to nearest frequency in the new/destination

>

> >scale" rather than the # of the notes away from C5?

>

> Sure... just make a 12-tone .scl file containing the nearest

>

> approximations to 12-ET from within 22-ET. This can be done

>

> very easily in scala with the command "equal 12" followed by

>

> the command "quantize 22".

>

> > Personally.. .I find myself having to re-tune MIDI files when

>

> >switching tunings with anything more different than A) the same # of

>

> >notes per octave and B) very similar intervals

>

> MIDI has no semantic representation of the music. It's just

>

> note numbers from 1-128 (0-127 actually). Even in normal 12-ET

>

> music, it doesn't know where the octaves are.

>

> -Carl

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

>

>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mike I will try this arpeggio experiment. However your prediction runs contrary to how I understand it works. I think z3ta maps existing notes into new frequncies. If it worked as you say one would have no way to access the extra notes.
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Sheiman <djtrancendance@...>

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 08:07:11
To: <MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [MMM] Daily experiments 22, indian d , adaptive 12 equal

---1 Z3ta loads the scala file - DAW (sonar in this case) has not a clue a

---different tuning is being used.
That's what I expected...and what could easily be causing the problem.

---
3 Can't we test if octaves are accurately generated?
��� Sure.�

��� Make a short arpeggio using 12TET tuning which uses the note c5 (middle c), g5, and c6 (c one octave up).

�� Now play the same song, but with the 24TET tuning loaded.� If the program is smart, it will sound EXACTLY the same (IE it will find 12TET within 24TET)...if not everything except the root note (c5) will sound MUCH lower.

�� Also, to note, I loved your first 22TET example, but the second did not quite work for me as it sounded too convoluted, almost as if there are 2 different scales being played at once.� For sure though, it's interesting to hear how the slight de-tuning from 12TET bends the moods in 22TET and it does sound quite fresh.

-Michael

--- On Mon, 12/1/08, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
From: Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>
Subject: Re: [MMM] Daily experiments 22, indian d , adaptive 12 equal
To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, December 1, 2008, 4:11 AM

Not sure I'm following all of this but I'll try to give some answers.

1 Z3ta loads the scala file - DAW (sonar in this case) has not a clue a

different tuning is being used.

2 The "different midi files" were in fact the exact same. All I did was load

a different scala tuning into Z3ta

3 Can't we test if octaves are accurately generated?

On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 1:41 AM, Michael Sheiman <djtrancendance@ yahoo.com>wrote:

>

> > I get the ODD feeling z3ta does not tune according to octaves correctly.

>

> >

>

> >IE if you input 12 tone music, z3ta will treat

>

> >A) a second octave C IE C6 as the 13th tone in 22tet IE less than once

>

> >octave up when it SHOULD instead treat the C6 as the 22nd note

>

> ---Why should it do that? How would you get to notes 13-21?

> c6,c#6,d6,d# 6,e6,f6,f# 6,g6,g#6. ....a6 will end up being the "octave"

> instead of c6

>

> The problem is it appears to map by the # of notes in the scale north

> of the middle C. So while C6 should = the 23rd note in 22TET (first note of

> second octave)...c6 becomes the 13th note in 22TET instead (which is

> obviously much closer to a 5th than the desired octave).

>__________________________________________________________

> ----Sure... just make a 12-tone .scl file containing the nearest

>

> approximations to 12-ET from within 22-ET. This can be done

>

> very easily in scala with the command "equal 12" followed by

>

> the command "quantize 22".

> OK, cool/got it thanks for the tip!

>

> ---MIDI has no semantic representation of the music. It's just

> ---

> note numbers from 1-128 (0-127 actually). Even in normal 12-ET

> ---

> music, it doesn't know where the octaves are.

> True...but that does not guarantee the VST-i plug-in synth IE Z3ta also

> complies to this standard. Remember, it is the SYNTH, and not the DAW

> itself...that often loads and interprets the .scl file. My guess is the

> synth itself has the problem described above.

>

> And, as for the problem with melodies becoming

> non-melodic/ in-different- order when Clones swapped scales...you are right it

> may well have been a different MIDI file as well.

>

> -Michael

>

> --- On Sun, 11/30/08, Carl Lumma <carl@... <carl%40lumma. org>>

> wrote:

> From: Carl Lumma <carl@... <carl%40lumma. org>>

> Subject: Re: [MMM] Daily experiments 22, indian d , adaptive 12 equal

> To: MakeMicroMusic@ yahoogroups. com <MakeMicroMusic% 40yahoogroups. com>

> Date: Sunday, November 30, 2008, 10:15 PM

>

>

> Michael wrote:

>

> > I get the ODD feeling z3ta does not tune according to octaves correctly.

>

> >

>

> >IE if you input 12 tone music, z3ta will treat

>

> >A) a second octave C IE C6 as the 13th tone in 22tet IE less than once

>

> >octave up when it SHOULD instead treat the C6 as the 22nd note

>

> Why should it do that? How would you get to notes 13-21?

>

> >This would explain why you get the harmony problems. You need to

>

> >fine-tune the notes to fit the new scales yourself when changing

>

> >between scales.

>

> But the first sample had no harmony. The two 12-tone/oct

>

> versions following seemed like they might have been stretched out,

>

> which would be the result of putting 22-ET music in a 12-tone

>

> scale, but they both had explicit harmony, so I have a hard time

>

> believing they were from the same file as the first example.

>

> >Also note...OPENMPT has the exact same problem.

>

> >

>

> > Carl and others...do you know of any good programs to re-tune

>

> >MIDI files "according to nearest frequency in the new/destination

>

> >scale" rather than the # of the notes away from C5?

>

> Sure... just make a 12-tone .scl file containing the nearest

>

> approximations to 12-ET from within 22-ET. This can be done

>

> very easily in scala with the command "equal 12" followed by

>

> the command "quantize 22".

>

> > Personally.. .I find myself having to re-tune MIDI files when

>

> >switching tunings with anything more different than A) the same # of

>

> >notes per octave and B) very similar intervals

>

> MIDI has no semantic representation of the music. It's just

>

> note numbers from 1-128 (0-127 actually). Even in normal 12-ET

>

> music, it doesn't know where the octaves are.

>

> -Carl

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

>

>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

---I think z3ta maps existing notes into new
frequencies. If it worked as you say one would have no way to access the extra
notes.

In that case I don't think you understand me fully.
According to my theory your COULD get octaves over C5 in 22TET, but
you would have to go further up the keyboard IE use A6 instead of
A5. So you could access "the notes"...just not as many octaves away from
C5. Again I know from experience this is the case with OPENMPT if
not also with z3ta.

 So, for example, in 22TET you would get more notes per octave
accessible, but less octaves (as a trade off) since 127/22 = about
5.77 octaves range while 127/12 = about 10.58 octaves range (almost
double the # of octaves).
-Michael

--- On Mon, 12/1/08, chrisvaisvil@... <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
From: chrisvaisvil@gmail.com <chrisvaisvil@...>
Subject: Re: [MMM] Daily experiments 22, indian d , adaptive 12 equal
To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, December 1, 2008, 9:06 AM

Mike I will try this arpeggio experiment. However your prediction runs contrary
to how I understand it works. I think z3ta maps existing notes into new
frequncies. If it worked as you say one would have no way to access the extra
notes.
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Sheiman <djtrancendance@yahoo.com>

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 08:07:11
To: <MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [MMM] Daily experiments 22, indian d , adaptive 12 equal

---1 Z3ta loads the scala file - DAW (sonar in this case) has not a clue a

---different tuning is being used.
That's what I expected...and what could easily be causing the problem.

---
3 Can't we test if octaves are accurately generated?
    Sure. 

    Make a short arpeggio using 12TET tuning which uses the note c5 (middle
c), g5, and c6 (c one octave up).

   Now play the same song, but with the 24TET tuning loaded.  If the program
is smart, it will sound EXACTLY the same (IE it will find 12TET within
24TET)...if not everything except the root note (c5) will sound MUCH lower.

   Also, to note, I loved your first 22TET example, but the second did not
quite work for me as it sounded too convoluted, almost as if there are 2
different scales being played at once.  For sure though, it's interesting
to hear how the slight de-tuning from 12TET bends the moods in 22TET and it does
sound quite fresh.

-Michael

--- On Mon, 12/1/08, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
From: Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MMM] Daily experiments 22, indian d , adaptive 12 equal
To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, December 1, 2008, 4:11 AM

Not sure I'm following all of this but I'll try to give
some answers.

1 Z3ta loads the scala file - DAW (sonar in this case) has not a clue a

different tuning is being used.

2 The "different midi files" were in fact the exact same. All I did
was load

a different scala tuning into Z3ta

3 Can't we test if octaves are accurately generated?

On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 1:41 AM, Michael Sheiman <djtrancendance@
yahoo.com>wrote:

>

> > I get the ODD feeling z3ta does not tune according to octaves
correctly.

>

> >

>

> >IE if you input 12 tone music, z3ta will treat

>

> >A) a second octave C IE C6 as the 13th tone in 22tet IE less than
once

>

> >octave up when it SHOULD instead treat the C6 as the 22nd note

>

> ---Why should it do that? How would you get to notes 13-21?

> c6,c#6,d6,d# 6,e6,f6,f# 6,g6,g#6. ....a6 will end up being the
"octave"

> instead of c6

>

> The problem is it appears to map by the # of notes in the scale north

> of the middle C. So while C6 should = the 23rd note in 22TET (first note
of

> second octave)...c6 becomes the 13th note in 22TET instead (which is

> obviously much closer to a 5th than the desired octave).

>__________________________________________________________

> ----Sure... just make a 12-tone .scl file containing the nearest

>

> approximations to 12-ET from within 22-ET. This can be done

>

> very easily in scala with the command "equal 12" followed by

>

> the command "quantize 22".

> OK, cool/got it thanks for the tip!

>

> ---MIDI has no semantic representation of the music. It's just

> ---

> note numbers from 1-128 (0-127 actually). Even in normal 12-ET

> ---

> music, it doesn't know where the octaves are.

> True...but that does not guarantee the VST-i plug-in synth IE Z3ta also

> complies to this standard. Remember, it is the SYNTH, and not the DAW

> itself...that often loads and interprets the .scl file. My guess is the

> synth itself has the problem described above.

>

> And, as for the problem with melodies becoming

> non-melodic/ in-different- order when Clones swapped scales...you are
right it

> may well have been a different MIDI file as well.

>

> -Michael

>

> --- On Sun, 11/30/08, Carl Lumma <carl@... <carl%40lumma.
org>>

> wrote:

> From: Carl Lumma <carl@... <carl%40lumma. org>>

> Subject: Re: [MMM] Daily experiments 22, indian d , adaptive 12 equal

> To: MakeMicroMusic@ yahoogroups. com <MakeMicroMusic% 40yahoogroups.
com>

> Date: Sunday, November 30, 2008, 10:15 PM

>

>

> Michael wrote:

>

> > I get the ODD feeling z3ta does not tune according to octaves
correctly.

>

> >

>

> >IE if you input 12 tone music, z3ta will treat

>

> >A) a second octave C IE C6 as the 13th tone in 22tet IE less than
once

>

> >octave up when it SHOULD instead treat the C6 as the 22nd note

>

> Why should it do that? How would you get to notes 13-21?

>

> >This would explain why you get the harmony problems. You need to

>

> >fine-tune the notes to fit the new scales yourself when changing

>

> >between scales.

>

> But the first sample had no harmony. The two 12-tone/oct

>

> versions following seemed like they might have been stretched out,

>

> which would be the result of putting 22-ET music in a 12-tone

>

> scale, but they both had explicit harmony, so I have a hard time

>

> believing they were from the same file as the first example.

>

> >Also note...OPENMPT has the exact same problem.

>

> >

>

> > Carl and others...do you know of any good programs to re-tune

>

> >MIDI files "according to nearest frequency in the
new/destination

>

> >scale" rather than the # of the notes away from C5?

>

> Sure... just make a 12-tone .scl file containing the nearest

>

> approximations to 12-ET from within 22-ET. This can be done

>

> very easily in scala with the command "equal 12" followed by

>

> the command "quantize 22".

>

> > Personally.. .I find myself having to re-tune MIDI files when

>

> >switching tunings with anything more different than A) the same # of

>

> >notes per octave and B) very similar intervals

>

> MIDI has no semantic representation of the music. It's just

>

> note numbers from 1-128 (0-127 actually). Even in normal 12-ET

>

> music, it doesn't know where the octaves are.

>

> -Carl

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

>

>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Michael wrote:
>---I think z3ta maps existing notes into new
>frequencies. If it worked as you say one would have no way to access the extra
>notes.
>
> In that case I don't think you understand me fully.

And I don't think you understand me fully.

>According to my theory your COULD get octaves over C5 in 22TET, but
>you would have to go further up the keyboard IE use A6 instead of
>A5. So you could access "the notes"...just not as many octaves away from
>C5. Again I know from experience this is the case with OPENMPT if
>not also with z3ta.

Huh?

> So, for example, in 22TET you would get more notes per octave
>accessible, but less octaves (as a trade off) since 127/22 = about
>5.77 octaves range while 127/12 = about 10.58 octaves range (almost
>double the # of octaves).

That's what he'll get if the synth does what you say it shouldn't.
What exactly are you proposing?

-Carl

Chris wrote:
>Thanks Carl for the listen and comments.
>
>It does make sense that the others didn't work for you since they were not
>composed in the scale used.
>I did find the textures and contrast interesting. But I do like the 22 edo
>the best myself as well.

Hi Chris. I'm still having a hard time believing the three
were made from the same MIDI file.

>>> http://clones.soonlabel.com/mp3/daily20081121b.mp3
>>> http://clones.soonlabel.com/mp3/daily20081126indiand.mp3
>>> http://clones.soonlabel.com/mp3/daily20081126j12adap.mp3

In the first example, the only simultaneities I hear are the
result of reverb. In the second two, I clearly hear notes
being triggered at the same time. Does the patch used in the
first example have mono enabled or something? Or am I
going crazy?

-Carl

Carl,

--That's what he'll get if the synth does what you say it shouldn't.
No, I am saying it likely DOES do that and the 12th note of 12TET in NOT a near neighbor or close in frequency to the 12th note of 22TET.
______________________________________________________________

--What exactly are you proposing?

A)     The problem: z3ta likely does NOT round to the nearest available note, UNLIKE scala's "quantize" function with DOES do it correctly.

   As I have said about 5 times, the problem is C6 likely becomes a much lower note when switched from 12 to 22TET or a much higher note when switched from 22 to 12TET. 
  In other words THE 12th note of the 12TET scale is much higher than the 12th note of the 22TET scale.
   Argh...this is frustrating: I don't see why this is such a complex concept/problem to understand. 

B)    The solution: you would need to use a program like SCALA to "quantize" the MIDI file toward proper notes and NOT rely on simple switching scales in z3ta to do a proper job. 
If it DID do a proper job you likely would not be complaining that Chris "used a differently composed the MIDI file" when it sounds clear from his statements he did not.
-----------------------------------------------
-Michael

--- On Mon, 12/1/08, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
From: Carl Lumma <carl@lumma.org>
Subject: Re: [MMM] Daily experiments 22, indian d , adaptive 12 equal
To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, December 1, 2008, 10:18 AM

Michael wrote:

>---I think z3ta maps existing notes into new

>frequencies. If it worked as you say one would have no way to access the extra

>notes.

>

> In that case I don't think you understand me fully.

And I don't think you understand me fully.

>According to my theory your COULD get octaves over C5 in 22TET, but

>you would have to go further up the keyboard IE use A6 instead of

>A5. So you could access "the notes"...just not as many octaves away from

>C5. Again I know from experience this is the case with OPENMPT if

>not also with z3ta.

Huh?

> So, for example, in 22TET you would get more notes per octave

>accessible, but less octaves (as a trade off) since 127/22 = about

>5.77 octaves range while 127/12 = about 10.58 octaves range (almost

>double the # of octaves).

That's what he'll get if the synth does what you say it shouldn't.

What exactly are you proposing?

-Carl

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You are correct

I will fix this when I get home

For right now
-
http://www.traxinspace.com/song/42336
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: Carl Lumma <carl@...>

Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2008 10:28:05
To: <MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [MMM] Daily experiments 22, indian d , adaptive 12 equal

Chris wrote:
>Thanks Carl for the listen and comments.
>
>It does make sense that the others didn't work for you since they were not
>composed in the scale used.
>I did find the textures and contrast interesting. But I do like the 22 edo
>the best myself as well.

Hi Chris. I'm still having a hard time believing the three
were made from the same MIDI file.

>>> http://clones.soonlabel.com/mp3/daily20081121b.mp3
>>> http://clones.soonlabel.com/mp3/daily20081126indiand.mp3
>>> http://clones.soonlabel.com/mp3/daily20081126j12adap.mp3

In the first example, the only simultaneities I hear are the
result of reverb. In the second two, I clearly hear notes
being triggered at the same time. Does the patch used in the
first example have mono enabled or something? Or am I
going crazy?

-Carl

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

   On second listen, you are right...there are SEVERAL missing notes from the redone version (even within the first measure) AND notes seem further spaced apart so far as octave (that plays into my theory that z3ta does not re-tune correctly.

--- On Mon, 12/1/08, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
From: Carl Lumma <carl@...>
Subject: Re: [MMM] Daily experiments 22, indian d , adaptive 12 equal
To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, December 1, 2008, 10:28 AM

Chris wrote:

>Thanks Carl for the listen and comments.

>

>It does make sense that the others didn't work for you since they were not

>composed in the scale used.

>I did find the textures and contrast interesting. But I do like the 22 edo

>the best myself as well.

Hi Chris. I'm still having a hard time believing the three

were made from the same MIDI file.

>>> http://clones. soonlabel. com/mp3/daily200 81121b.mp3

>>> http://clones. soonlabel. com/mp3/daily200 81126indiand. mp3

>>> http://clones. soonlabel. com/mp3/daily200 81126j12adap. mp3

In the first example, the only simultaneities I hear are the

result of reverb. In the second two, I clearly hear notes

being triggered at the same time. Does the patch used in the

first example have mono enabled or something? Or am I

going crazy?

-Carl

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Michael wrote:
> As I have said about 5 times, the problem is C6 likely becomes a
>much lower note when switched from 12 to 22TET or a much higher note
>when switched from 22 to 12TET.
> In other words THE 12th note of the 12TET scale is much higher than
>the 12th note of the 22TET scale.
> Argh...this is frustrating: I don't see why this is such a complex
>concept/problem to understand.

Once again, MIDI has no semantic understanding of music. How do
you propose this work?

>B) The solution: you would need to use a program like SCALA to
>"quantize" the MIDI file toward proper notes and NOT rely on simple
>switching scales in z3ta to do a proper job.

One does not quantize the MIDI file, one quantizes the scale, as
I already explained.

-Carl

>AND notes seem
>further spaced apart so far as octave (that plays into my theory that
>z3ta does not re-tune correctly.

Define "correctly".

-Carl

--Once again, MIDI has no semantic understanding of music. How do

--you propose this work?
   If I have it correct, MIDI always has a central note which is at the exact same frequency as the middle C.  At least, this is true when I switch tunings on my cs6x keyboard and several others I have tried...c5 is always the same but everything else becomes shifted.

--
One does not quantize the MIDI file, one quantizes the scale, as

--I already explained.
   My bad, I meant "quantize the scale to remap the MIDI file to the nearest note frequency-wise". 

--- On Mon, 12/1/08, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
From: Carl Lumma <carl@...>
Subject: Re: [MMM] Daily experiments 22, indian d , adaptive 12 equal
To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, December 1, 2008, 11:31 AM

Michael wrote:

> As I have said about 5 times, the problem is C6 likely becomes a

>much lower note when switched from 12 to 22TET or a much higher note

>when switched from 22 to 12TET.

> In other words THE 12th note of the 12TET scale is much higher than

>the 12th note of the 22TET scale.

> Argh...this is frustrating: I don't see why this is such a complex

>concept/problem to understand.

Once again, MIDI has no semantic understanding of music. How do

you propose this work?

>B) The solution: you would need to use a program like SCALA to

>"quantize" the MIDI file toward proper notes and NOT rely on simple

>switching scales in z3ta to do a proper job.

One does not quantize the MIDI file, one quantizes the scale, as

I already explained.

-Carl

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

What you all liked is a 12 tet piece called of leaf and stream I am trying to produce in GPO. - my apologies.
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: chrisvaisvil@...

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 19:20:05
To: <MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [MMM] Daily experiments 22, indian d , adaptive 12 equal

You are correct

I will fix this when I get home

For right now
-
http://www.traxinspace.com/song/42336
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: Carl Lumma <carl@...>

Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2008 10:28:05
To: <MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [MMM] Daily experiments 22, indian d , adaptive 12 equal

Chris wrote:
>Thanks Carl for the listen and comments.
>
>It does make sense that the others didn't work for you since they were not
>composed in the scale used.
>I did find the textures and contrast interesting. But I do like the 22 edo
>the best myself as well.

Hi Chris. I'm still having a hard time believing the three
were made from the same MIDI file.

>>> http://clones.soonlabel.com/mp3/daily20081121b.mp3
>>> http://clones.soonlabel.com/mp3/daily20081126indiand.mp3
>>> http://clones.soonlabel.com/mp3/daily20081126j12adap.mp3

In the first example, the only simultaneities I hear are the
result of reverb. In the second two, I clearly hear notes
being triggered at the same time. Does the patch used in the
first example have mono enabled or something? Or am I
going crazy?

-Carl

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Correctly: if

scale A)                                scale B)
1             C                           1              C
                                            1.08        
D

1.225       D#                        1.2           D#
                                           1.25         E

1.42         D                          1.4           F
1.5          
G                         1.5            G

and you melody was written in scale B) and went C,D,E.....
.....it would "correctly" become C,C,D# (aligned to the nearest notes/ratios) when changed into scale A)

If it were written incorrectly it would become C,D#,G when changed into scale A) because it uses "the first, third and 4th notes of scale B"...regardless of the fact these ratios are quite far apart from the original scale ratios.  Note the CORRECT method creates something which sounds a lot more like the original melody.
______________________________________________________
-Michael

--- On Mon, 12/1/08, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
From: Carl Lumma <carl@...>
Subject: Re: [MMM] Daily experiments 22, indian d , adaptive 12 equal
To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, December 1, 2008, 11:32 AM

>AND notes seem

>further spaced apart so far as octave (that plays into my theory that

>z3ta does not re-tune correctly.

Define "correctly".

-Carl

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

   Bizarre...you fooled me: the tone formed by the chords sounds profoundly unique and many of them I could not pinpoint by ear. 
What chords are you using there?

--- On Mon, 12/1/08, chrisvaisvil@... <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
From: chrisvaisvil@... <chrisvaisvil@...>
Subject: Re: [MMM] Daily experiments 22, indian d , adaptive 12 equal
To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, December 1, 2008, 11:58 AM

What you all liked is a 12 tet piece called of leaf and stream I am trying to produce in GPO. - my apologies.

Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----

From: chrisvaisvil@ gmail.com

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 19:20:05

To: <MakeMicroMusic@ yahoogroups. com>

Subject: Re: [MMM] Daily experiments 22, indian d , adaptive 12 equal

You are correct

I will fix this when I get home

For right now

-

http://www.traxinsp ace.com/song/ 42336

Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----

From: Carl Lumma <carl@...>

Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2008 10:28:05

To: <MakeMicroMusic@ yahoogroups. com>

Subject: Re: [MMM] Daily experiments 22, indian d , adaptive 12 equal

Chris wrote:

>Thanks Carl for the listen and comments.

>

>It does make sense that the others didn't work for you since they were not

>composed in the scale used.

>I did find the textures and contrast interesting. But I do like the 22 edo

>the best myself as well.

Hi Chris. I'm still having a hard time believing the three

were made from the same MIDI file.

>>> http://clones. soonlabel. com/mp3/daily200 81121b.mp3

>>> http://clones. soonlabel. com/mp3/daily200 81126indiand. mp3

>>> http://clones. soonlabel. com/mp3/daily200 81126j12adap. mp3

In the first example, the only simultaneities I hear are the

result of reverb. In the second two, I clearly hear notes

being triggered at the same time. Does the patch used in the

first example have mono enabled or something? Or am I

going crazy?

-Carl

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At 11:49 AM 12/1/2008, you wrote:
>--Once again, MIDI has no semantic understanding of music. How do
>--you propose this work?
> If I have it correct, MIDI always has a central note which is at
>the exact same frequency as the middle C. At least, this is true when
>I switch tunings on my cs6x keyboard and several others I have
>tried...c5 is always the same but everything else becomes shifted.

MIDI does not contain frequencies or "notes".

-Carl

At 11:58 AM 12/1/2008, you wrote:
>What you all liked is a 12 tet piece called of leaf and stream I am
>trying to produce in GPO. - my apologies.

Aha! I didn't think it sounded much like 22.

-Carl

At 12:00 PM 12/1/2008, you wrote:
>Correctly: if
>
>scale A) scale B)
>1 C 1 C
> 1.08
> D
>
>1.225 D# 1.2 D#
> 1.25 E
>
>1.42 D 1.4 F
>1.5
> G 1.5 G

Are these numbers supposed to line up somehow? I think they
got mangled going thru the pipes.

>and you melody was written in scale B) and went C,D,E.....

But it doesn't go C D E.

http://www.sonicspot.com/guide/midifiles.html

>If it were written incorrectly it would become C,D#,G when changed
>into scale A) because it uses "the first, third and 4th notes of scale
>B"...regardless of the fact these ratios are quite far apart from the
>original scale ratios. Note the CORRECT method creates something
>which sounds a lot more like the original melody.

What you're proposing would involve adding some sort of "composed
in scale" message to the MIDI standard. Then a synth could find the
nearest note in a user-specified scale to the one the piece was
composed in. But there's no one clear way to do this. Once chords
come into the picture, the simple quantization method I mentioned
no longer gives unique results.

-Carl

---Are these numbers supposed to line up somehow? I think they

---got mangled going thru the pipes.
They are...no clue why they are displayed differently to you than they are in my drafts folder e-mail.

>and you melody was written in scale B) and went C,D,E.....

---But it doesn't go C D E.
In the example it does, before the conversion to scale A.

--Then a synth could find the

nearest note in a user-specified scale to the one the piece was

composed in.

Ok, now we are getting somewhere: that is the desired result I am looking for.

----Once chords

come into the picture, the simple quantization method I mentioned

no longer gives unique results.

   True...two notes in one scale could be closer to the SAME note in the desired scale thus making a 2-note "chord" into one duplicated note, for example, after the conversion.  It would be nice if there were a way to let the composer choose which frequency (higher or lower) to apply to one of the two duplicate notes when this conflict occurs. 

  But, even this seems to prove my point...much of scale software around does not handle to "quantization" of notes from one scale to another in such a way as to produce something that sounds as much like the original as possible (regardless of the fact Chris's MIDI files were indeed not even remotely alike and I was dead wrong that a "scale quantization" problem cause that). :-D

-Michael

--- On Mon, 12/1/08, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
From: Carl Lumma <carl@lumma.org>
Subject: Re: [MMM] Daily experiments 22, indian d , adaptive 12 equal
To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, December 1, 2008, 12:26 PM

At 12:00 PM 12/1/2008, you wrote:

>Correctly: if

>

>scale A) scale B)

>1 C 1 C

> 1.08

> D

>

>1.225 D# 1.2 D#

> 1.25 E

>

>1.42 D 1.4 F

>1.5

> G 1.5 G

Are these numbers supposed to line up somehow? I think they

got mangled going thru the pipes.

>and you melody was written in scale B) and went C,D,E.....

But it doesn't go C D E.

http://www.sonicspo t.com/guide/ midifiles. html

>If it were written incorrectly it would become C,D#,G when changed

>into scale A) because it uses "the first, third and 4th notes of scale

>B"...regardless of the fact these ratios are quite far apart from the

>original scale ratios. Note the CORRECT method creates something

>which sounds a lot more like the original melody.

What you're proposing would involve adding some sort of "composed

in scale" message to the MIDI standard. Then a synth could find the

nearest note in a user-specified scale to the one the piece was

composed in. But there's no one clear way to do this. Once chords

come into the picture, the simple quantization method I mentioned

no longer gives unique results.

-Carl

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ok, again I apologize.

Since people liked the song - here is the 12-tet song what I'm trying to
improve on:

http://clones.soonlabel.com/mp3/leaf-g.mp3

It was originally a piano piece written in cakewalk pro audio and the
resulting midi translated to a music module. From there I changed to a
guitar sample and made appropriate guitar - like changes to the execution.

The file I meant to post that IS 22 edo is

http://clones.soonlabel.com/mp3/daily20081126b.mp3

I messed up in my copy and past. I apologize.

Chris

On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 3:05 PM, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:

> At 11:58 AM 12/1/2008, you wrote:
> >What you all liked is a 12 tet piece called of leaf and stream I am
> >trying to produce in GPO. - my apologies.
>
> Aha! I didn't think it sounded much like 22.
>
> -Carl
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Michael Sheiman wrote:
> I get the ODD feeling z3ta does not tune according to octaves
> correctly.
> > IE if you input 12 tone music, z3ta will treat A) a second octave C
> IE C6 as the 13th tone in 22tet IE less than once octave up when it
> SHOULD instead treat the C6 as the 22nd note

That's only the expected result of using a 22 note scale. You have to go up 22 notes to get an octave. But for reasons known only to the z3ta+ developers, middle C is assigned to MIDI note 72 (instead of the usual 60). So if by C6 you mean MIDI note 84, that would be roughly a diminished fifth above C (a perfect fifth is 13 notes up in 22-ET). You have to go up to MIDI note 98 (Bb6) to get an octave above middle C.

What you probably want is some 12-note subset of 22-ET, if you start with 12-tone music.

> This would explain why you get the harmony problems. You need to
> fine-tune the notes to fit the new scales yourself when changing
> between scales.
> > Also note...OPENMPT has the exact same problem.
> > Carl and others...do you know of any good programs to re-tune MIDI
> files "according to nearest frequency in the new/destination scale"
> rather than the # of the notes away from C5?

It can be done with Scala if you define a keyboard mapping (kbm file). See the example.kbm file for an example. You'd want to replace the numbers 0-11 at the end of the file with appropriate degrees of your 22-note scale (e.g. 0 2 4 6 7 9 11 13 15 17 18 20).

>The file I meant to post that IS 22 edo is
>
>http://clones.soonlabel.com/mp3/daily20081126b.mp3
>
>I messed up in my copy and past. I apologize.
>
>Chris

Yes!! This rocks. I think it needs a name.

-Carl

---What you probably want is some 12-note subset of 22-ET, if you start
---with 12-tone music.
   Precisely IE I would choose the "12 closest notes" to existing 22TET notes, ideally....even though z3ta obviously does not do this automatically.

---middle C....is assigned to MIDI note 72 (instead of the usual
---60).
   This is what I meant, even though, as Carl said, MIDI is pretty much an open standard MOST midi programs, instruments, and keyboards revolve around using the exact same frequency for middle C regardless of the tuning used (at least all the programs and keyboards I use do in alternative tunings IE JI, Indian, Arabic, etc.).

---You'd want to replace the

---numbers 0-11 at the end of the file with appropriate degrees of your

---22-note scale (e.g. 0 2 4 6 7 9 11 13 15 17 18 20).
   Good method, though, as I suspected, there is still a danger for most users...that they will simply swap scales and expect their softsynth to find these assignments automatically instead of performing the "correct" method stated above.
--------------------------
   As a general statement...I wish microtuning programs were more accessible and mapped automatically thus making microtonal music easily accessible to non-"theory-techies".
   Meaning, in such a way that someone who understands traditional scale music could at least have a synth, for example, automatically play a chord from a given micro-tonal scale that sounds a LOT (in mood) like the 12TET chord actually played.
  I have a feeling that sort of artificial intelligence music program would draw people to make microtonal music a lot more than, say the terminology behind limits , beating,
and the tonality diamond.

-Michael

--- On Mon, 12/1/08, Herman Miller <hmiller@...> wrote:
From: Herman Miller <hmiller@...>
Subject: Re: [MMM] Daily experiments 22, indian d , adaptive 12 equal
To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, December 1, 2008, 7:51 PM

Michael Sheiman wrote:

> I get the ODD feeling z3ta does not tune according to octaves

> correctly.

>

> IE if you input 12 tone music, z3ta will treat A) a second octave C

> IE C6 as the 13th tone in 22tet IE less than once octave up when it

> SHOULD instead treat the C6 as the 22nd note

That's only the expected result of using a 22 note scale. You have to go

up 22 notes to get an octave. But for reasons known only to the z3ta+

developers, middle C is assigned to MIDI note 72 (instead of the usual

60). So if by C6 you mean MIDI note 84, that would be roughly a

diminished fifth above C (a perfect fifth is 13 notes up in 22-ET). You

have to go up to MIDI note 98 (Bb6) to get an octave above middle C.

What you probably want is some 12-note subset of 22-ET, if you start

with 12-tone music.

> This would explain why you get the harmony problems. You need to

> fine-tune the notes to fit the new scales yourself when changing

> between scales.

>

> Also note...OPENMPT has the exact same problem.

>

> Carl and others...do you know of any good programs to re-tune MIDI

> files "according to nearest frequency in the new/destination scale"

> rather than the # of the notes away from C5?

It can be done with Scala if you define a keyboard mapping (kbm file).

See the example.kbm file for an example. You'd want to replace the

numbers 0-11 at the end of the file with appropriate degrees of your

22-note scale (e.g. 0 2 4 6 7 9 11 13 15 17 18 20).

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks, though its just a little experiment. I sure do wish there was a way to relate the notes because I resorted to the piano roll in the end. I think I did find harmonic resolution finally but I have no clue what the chord is since it ended up being all by ear. This is best evident in the slowest rendition and of course it is so to my ears YMMV and all that. Perhaps it will help once I get my midi keys to drive z3ta real time. I did that sunday will gpo and was surprised at the responsiveness. Key patterns will be easier to recognize. Mike gave me his consonnace scale to try as well.
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: Carl Lumma <carl@...>

Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2008 22:38:03
To: <MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [MMM] Daily experiments 22, indian d , adaptive 12 equal

>The file I meant to post that IS 22 edo is
>
>http://clones.soonlabel.com/mp3/daily20081126b.mp3
>
>I messed up in my copy and past. I apologize.
>
>Chris

Yes!! This rocks. I think it needs a name.

-Carl

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Now all you need is an AXiS and you're ready to roll.

-Carl

At 12:05 PM 12/2/2008, you wrote:
>Thanks, though its just a little experiment. I sure do wish there was
>a way to relate the notes because I resorted to the piano roll in the
>end. I think I did find harmonic resolution finally but I have no
>clue what the chord is since it ended up being all by ear. This is
>best evident in the slowest rendition and of course it is so to my
>ears YMMV and all that. Perhaps it will help once I get my midi keys
>to drive z3ta real time. I did that sunday will gpo and was surprised
>at the responsiveness. Key patterns will be easier to recognize. Mike
>gave me his consonnace scale to try as well.

What is an AXiS?

Here is today's offering... with Mike's (spectra's) scale

http://clones.soonlabel.com/mp3/daily20081202a.mp3

I'll let him explain the scale.

Technical details

I played (improvised) my Korg MS2000 into z3ta+ loaded with Mike's scale.
Recorded full midi at 120 BPM boosted to 220 BPM when rendered.
I cheated and used some of my Korg MS2000 in normal 12-TET for a few notes
towards the end.
Sorry for the crackles - I got the midi recorded if I (or anyone else) want
to optimize the sound.

On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 11:07 PM, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:

> Now all you need is an AXiS and you're ready to roll.
>
> -Carl
>
>
> At 12:05 PM 12/2/2008, you wrote:
> >Thanks, though its just a little experiment. I sure do wish there was
> >a way to relate the notes because I resorted to the piano roll in the
> >end. I think I did find harmonic resolution finally but I have no
> >clue what the chord is since it ended up being all by ear. This is
> >best evident in the slowest rendition and of course it is so to my
> >ears YMMV and all that. Perhaps it will help once I get my midi keys
> >to drive z3ta real time. I did that sunday will gpo and was surprised
> >at the responsiveness. Key patterns will be easier to recognize. Mike
> >gave me his consonnace scale to try as well.
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At 08:49 PM 12/2/2008, Chris wrote:
>What is an AXiS?

See:
/tuning/topicId_76549.html#76549

-Carl

Chris,

   Not bad, glad the Scala file worked out for you. :-)  I am amazed you got the massive pad instruments in your song with THAT many overtones not arranged bin-aurally to work smoothly, although I am still left wondering what a more acoustic, perhaps even folk-music-like song would sound like in this.
  I am pretty sure this song sounds a good deal more confident, resolved, and better than your last few 22-TET offerings, though I'd like to see what others think to make sure I'm not just overestimating it since it's my own scale. :-P
_____________________________________________________________________

   The idea (IE goal...I realize it's not 100% there) is to make a 7 note scale where every note is consonant against every other note and anything that beats...beats bearly
and harmonically....and is still pleasing to the ears (in the same way beating harmonic overtones are pleasing to the ears).  I think Carl coined this term as "harmonic fuzz".

   The ideal benefit...is that the number of chords you can make with this scale are huge and as infinite as the combination of different notes you can find. 

   The scale's ideal form is bin-aural IE 4 notes on one side of the spectrum on the right and 3 on the left for every odd # octave and 3 on the right 4 on the left for every odd number octave to limit beating even further.  And....the overtones should ALSO ultimately be arranged in stereo as such.
   But, since this is unrealistic without specialized software, I figure most composition with this scale will be in standard mode with overtones that don't align and thus a bit more dissonant. 

-Michael

--- On Tue, 12/2/08, Chris Vaisvil
<chrisvaisvil@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>
Subject: Re: [MMM] Daily experiments 22, indian d , adaptive 12 equal
To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, December 2, 2008, 8:49 PM

What is an AXiS?

Here is today's offering... with Mike's (spectra's) scale

http://clones. soonlabel. com/mp3/daily200 81202a.mp3

I'll let him explain the scale.

Technical details

I played (improvised) my Korg MS2000 into z3ta+ loaded with Mike's scale.

Recorded full midi at 120 BPM boosted to 220 BPM when rendered.

I cheated and used some of my Korg MS2000 in normal 12-TET for a few notes

towards the end.

Sorry for the crackles - I got the midi recorded if I (or anyone else) want

to optimize the sound.

On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 11:07 PM, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:

> Now all you need is an AXiS and you're ready to roll.

>

> -Carl

>

>

> At 12:05 PM 12/2/2008, you wrote:

> >Thanks, though its just a little experiment. I sure do wish there was

> >a way to relate the notes because I resorted to the piano roll in the

> >end. I think I did find harmonic resolution finally but I have no

> >clue what the chord is since it ended up being all by ear. This is

> >best evident in the slowest rendition and of course it is so to my

> >ears YMMV and all that. Perhaps it will help once I get my midi keys

> >to drive z3ta real time. I did that sunday will gpo and was surprised

> >at the responsiveness. Key patterns will be easier to recognize. Mike

> >gave me his consonnace scale to try as well.

>

>

>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I dunno - to be honest I'm liking 22 edo more and more. Its different but
still can be managed.19 and 31 I want to look at as well.

Anything like 12-tet is kinda boring if I'm trying to write microtonal music
though. But I've only just touched JI.

Unfortunately with my Mustang and Strat I got 12 TET still... but writing in
rock-ish idiom is a different bird.
I want to try adding microtonal (22, 19, 31) on top of rock-ish and see what
happens.

With respect to the harmonics and binaural - ism
Dissonance, imho, is a personal perception. stacked fifths or fourths in
quintal and quartal harmony become major 2nds with inversion. I consider
them consonances at this point.

Mike you should get yourself (and anyone else) an ID on center.soonlabel.com

Excuse my confused response. I was getting new tires and using thier wi-fi
--- gotta go now.

Chris

On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 10:33 AM, Michael Sheiman
<djtrancendance@...>wrote:

> Chris,
>
> Not bad, glad the Scala file worked out for you. :-) I am amazed you
> got the massive pad instruments in your song with THAT many overtones not
> arranged bin-aurally to work smoothly, although I am still left wondering
> what a more acoustic, perhaps even folk-music-like song would sound like in
> this.
> I am pretty sure this song sounds a good deal more confident, resolved,
> and better than your last few 22-TET offerings, though I'd like to see what
> others think to make sure I'm not just overestimating it since it's my own
> scale. :-P
> __________________________________________________________
>
> The idea (IE goal...I realize it's not 100% there) is to make a 7 note
> scale where every note is consonant against every other note and anything
> that beats...beats bearly
> and harmonically....and is still pleasing to the ears (in the same way
> beating harmonic overtones are pleasing to the ears). I think Carl coined
> this term as "harmonic fuzz".
>
> The ideal benefit...is that the number of chords you can make with this
> scale are huge and as infinite as the combination of different notes you can
> find.
>
> The scale's ideal form is bin-aural IE 4 notes on one side of the
> spectrum on the right and 3 on the left for every odd # octave and 3 on the
> right 4 on the left for every odd number octave to limit beating even
> further. And....the overtones should ALSO ultimately be arranged in stereo
> as such.
> But, since this is unrealistic without specialized software, I figure
> most composition with this scale will be in standard mode with overtones
> that don't align and thus a bit more dissonant.
>
> -Michael
>
> --- On Tue, 12/2/08, Chris Vaisvil
> <chrisvaisvil@... <chrisvaisvil%40gmail.com>> wrote:
> From: Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@... <chrisvaisvil%40gmail.com>>
>
> Subject: Re: [MMM] Daily experiments 22, indian d , adaptive 12 equal
> To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com <MakeMicroMusic%40yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Tuesday, December 2, 2008, 8:49 PM
>
> What is an AXiS?
>
> Here is today's offering... with Mike's (spectra's) scale
>
> http://clones. soonlabel. com/mp3/daily200 81202a.mp3
>
> I'll let him explain the scale.
>
> Technical details
>
> I played (improvised) my Korg MS2000 into z3ta+ loaded with Mike's scale.
>
> Recorded full midi at 120 BPM boosted to 220 BPM when rendered.
>
> I cheated and used some of my Korg MS2000 in normal 12-TET for a few notes
>
> towards the end.
>
> Sorry for the crackles - I got the midi recorded if I (or anyone else) want
>
> to optimize the sound.
>
> On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 11:07 PM, Carl Lumma <carl@...<carl%40lumma.org>>
> wrote:
>
> > Now all you need is an AXiS and you're ready to roll.
>
> >
>
> > -Carl
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > At 12:05 PM 12/2/2008, you wrote:
>
> > >Thanks, though its just a little experiment. I sure do wish there was
>
> > >a way to relate the notes because I resorted to the piano roll in the
>
> > >end. I think I did find harmonic resolution finally but I have no
>
> > >clue what the chord is since it ended up being all by ear. This is
>
> > >best evident in the slowest rendition and of course it is so to my
>
> > >ears YMMV and all that. Perhaps it will help once I get my midi keys
>
> > >to drive z3ta real time. I did that sunday will gpo and was surprised
>
> > >at the responsiveness. Key patterns will be easier to recognize. Mike
>
> > >gave me his consonnace scale to try as well.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Whoa! lots and lots of buttons. I wonder if a $200 88 key midi keyboard might not be better for me. Let me see what 22 is like on my korg or casio (61 keys). For that much money a quad core computer sounds more useful right now. But thanks for the link. Has anyone on MMM purchased an AXiS?
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: Carl Lumma <carl@...>

Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2008 22:07:54
To: <MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [MMM] Daily experiments 22, indian d , adaptive 12 equal

At 08:49 PM 12/2/2008, Chris wrote:
>What is an AXiS?

See:
/tuning/topicId_76549.html#76549

-Carl

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

---I dunno - to be honest I'm liking 22 edo more and more. Its different but

---still can be managed.19 and 31 I want to look at as well.
     Despite all the weird attitudes toward it...I like 19-TET; there are some cool ways to get 8-note scales out of it.  Those scales aren't consonant in the same way 12TET is...but I have found them very cool for "abstract-pop" music with a slightly gloomy sound. 
   31TET is one I don't know much about, though I can say 41 is very good (takes a good while to find the sweet spots and chords in a scale that large, though).

---
Dissonance, imho, is a personal perception. stacked fifths or fourths in
---
quintal and quartal harmony become major 2nds with inversion. I consider
---
them consonances at this point.
   
My hunch...is that the whole idea of "harmonic buzz" has something to do with why this works.  I agree intervals with 2 and sometimes 3 notes can most often be inverted without sounding dissonant...although there is also a "breaking point" where a huge majority (almost all) of people will say "that sounds dissonant" IE putting C,C#,and D together as a chord.
  The beauty of micro-tonal, in my mind, is that in many ways you can explore and push to find the barrier of "where things become dissonant"...which, I agree, differs per person, but not infinitely by any means.

  The harsh reality is, for example, as a DJ I find it very hard to find micro-tonal that sounds resolved enough that I could fling it upon an audience and have many of them "get it" so I can play it without being embarrassed or "unproductive".
  So my personal and live listening collections are often vastly different with microtonal "stuck" in my personal collection.  There reason can be traced to the fact what a perceive as "consonant" has a much broader spectrum than what most people do.
  My scale is, in many ways, an attempt to make something I could sneak into a "normal-tonal" DJ set without any problems.
____________________________________________
    Back to inversions, where I get weary of it is with things like 5-note-plus chords: it's very easy to take the inversion of a 5-note+ chord IE a 13th, invert it, and have it sound like crap to 95% of people.  That's one possible advantage to my scale: you can invert even 7-note chords all day long and have them work, virtually guaranteed...there no need to use complex math to calculate "will this chord work?" leaving more time to get into and focus on the mood of the music.

---Mike you should get yourself (and anyone else) an ID on center.soonlabel. com

   Maybe I should.  I have always been interested in your label but also under the impression there was a certain popularity status needed to join "Soon" in any form.   Usually I don't do much on music sites beside either discuss music in forums or release my own...but I will probably at least check it out once a month or so for new releases.

-Michael

--- On Wed, 12/3/08, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
From: Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>
Subject: Re: [MMM] Daily experiments 22, indian d , adaptive 12 equal
To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, December 3, 2008, 8:07 AM

I dunno - to be honest I'm liking 22 edo more and more. Its different but

still can be managed.19 and 31 I want to look at as well.

Anything like 12-tet is kinda boring if I'm trying to write microtonal music

though. But I've only just touched JI.

Unfortunately with my Mustang and Strat I got 12 TET still... but writing in

rock-ish idiom is a different bird.

I want to try adding microtonal (22, 19, 31) on top of rock-ish and see what

happens.

With respect to the harmonics and binaural - ism

Dissonance, imho, is a personal perception. stacked fifths or fourths in

quintal and quartal harmony become major 2nds with inversion. I consider

them consonances at this point.

Mike you should get yourself (and anyone else) an ID on center.soonlabel. com

Excuse my confused response. I was getting new tires and using thier wi-fi

--- gotta go now.

Chris

On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 10:33 AM, Michael Sheiman

<djtrancendance@ yahoo.com>wrote:

> Chris,

>

> Not bad, glad the Scala file worked out for you. :-) I am amazed you

> got the massive pad instruments in your song with THAT many overtones not

> arranged bin-aurally to work smoothly, although I am still left wondering

> what a more acoustic, perhaps even folk-music-like song would sound like in

> this.

> I am pretty sure this song sounds a good deal more confident, resolved,

> and better than your last few 22-TET offerings, though I'd like to see what

> others think to make sure I'm not just overestimating it since it's my own

> scale. :-P

> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

>

> The idea (IE goal...I realize it's not 100% there) is to make a 7 note

> scale where every note is consonant against every other note and anything

> that beats...beats bearly

> and harmonically. ...and is still pleasing to the ears (in the same way

> beating harmonic overtones are pleasing to the ears). I think Carl coined

> this term as "harmonic fuzz".

>

> The ideal benefit...is that the number of chords you can make with this

> scale are huge and as infinite as the combination of different notes you can

> find.

>

> The scale's ideal form is bin-aural IE 4 notes on one side of the

> spectrum on the right and 3 on the left for every odd # octave and 3 on the

> right 4 on the left for every odd number octave to limit beating even

> further. And....the overtones should ALSO ultimately be arranged in stereo

> as such.

> But, since this is unrealistic without specialized software, I figure

> most composition with this scale will be in standard mode with overtones

> that don't align and thus a bit more dissonant.

>

> -Michael

>

> --- On Tue, 12/2/08, Chris Vaisvil

> <chrisvaisvil@ gmail.com <chrisvaisvil% 40gmail.com> > wrote:

> From: Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@ gmail.com <chrisvaisvil% 40gmail.com> >

>

> Subject: Re: [MMM] Daily experiments 22, indian d , adaptive 12 equal

> To: MakeMicroMusic@ yahoogroups. com <MakeMicroMusic% 40yahoogroups. com>

> Date: Tuesday, December 2, 2008, 8:49 PM

>

> What is an AXiS?

>

> Here is today's offering... with Mike's (spectra's) scale

>

> http://clones. soonlabel. com/mp3/daily200 81202a.mp3

>

> I'll let him explain the scale.

>

> Technical details

>

> I played (improvised) my Korg MS2000 into z3ta+ loaded with Mike's scale.

>

> Recorded full midi at 120 BPM boosted to 220 BPM when rendered.

>

> I cheated and used some of my Korg MS2000 in normal 12-TET for a few notes

>

> towards the end.

>

> Sorry for the crackles - I got the midi recorded if I (or anyone else) want

>

> to optimize the sound.

>

> On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 11:07 PM, Carl Lumma <carl@lumma.org<carl%40lumma. org>>

> wrote:

>

> > Now all you need is an AXiS and you're ready to roll.

>

> >

>

> > -Carl

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > At 12:05 PM 12/2/2008, you wrote:

>

> > >Thanks, though its just a little experiment. I sure do wish there was

>

> > >a way to relate the notes because I resorted to the piano roll in the

>

> > >end. I think I did find harmonic resolution finally but I have no

>

> > >clue what the chord is since it ended up being all by ear. This is

>

> > >best evident in the slowest rendition and of course it is so to my

>

> > >ears YMMV and all that. Perhaps it will help once I get my midi keys

>

> > >to drive z3ta real time. I did that sunday will gpo and was surprised

>

> > >at the responsiveness. Key patterns will be easier to recognize. Mike

>

> > >gave me his consonnace scale to try as well.

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

>

>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Chris wrote:
>I dunno - to be honest I'm liking 22 edo more and more. Its different but
>still can be managed.

To my ear, of all the examples you've posted lately, one stands
out clearly as being most interesting from an intonation perspective,
and that was the one you posted in 22.

-Carl

> The harsh reality is, for example, as a DJ I find it very hard to
>find micro-tonal that sounds resolved enough that I could fling it
>upon an audience and have many of them "get it" so I can play it
>without being embarrassed or "unproductive".

Try 19. I think it's an obvious candidate for electronica.

-Carl

Having played 22 edo for a few minutes maybe I need to re-think the AXiS :-). But I did find something like a major chord.
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: Carl Lumma <carl@...>

Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2008 22:07:54
To: <MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [MMM] Daily experiments 22, indian d , adaptive 12 equal

At 08:49 PM 12/2/2008, Chris wrote:
>What is an AXiS?

See:
/tuning/topicId_76549.html#76549

-Carl

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At 10:36 AM 12/3/2008, you wrote:
>Having played 22 edo for a few minutes maybe I need to re-think the
>AXiS :-). But I did find something like a major chord.

Oh, it's got major chords. All 22 of them would be obvious (and
the same shape) on the AXiS. Have fun learning them all on a
halberstadt.

-Carl

Halberstadt? Is that the true name for traditional keyboard?
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: Carl Lumma <carl@...>

Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 10:43:25
To: <MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [MMM] Daily experiments 22, indian d , adaptive 12 equal

At 10:36 AM 12/3/2008, you wrote:
>Having played 22 edo for a few minutes maybe I need to re-think the
>AXiS :-). But I did find something like a major chord.

Oh, it's got major chords. All 22 of them would be obvious (and
the same shape) on the AXiS. Have fun learning them all on a
halberstadt.

-Carl

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At 10:48 AM 12/3/2008, you wrote:
>Halberstadt? Is that the true name for traditional keyboard?

Yes. -C.

I agree with that assessment. I think there is some good things to be found
there.

I was wondering - has anyone set up a tabulation of 12 EDO versus 22 EDO in
frequency?

I was really surprised when I found that major chord. It seems that this
would be a way for me to understand the relationships in 22 EDO and I bet
someone's done it already.

Thanks,

Chris

On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 12:28 PM, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:

> Chris wrote:
> >I dunno - to be honest I'm liking 22 edo more and more. Its different but
> >still can be managed.
>
> To my ear, of all the examples you've posted lately, one stands
> out clearly as being most interesting from an intonation perspective,
> and that was the one you posted in 22.
>
> -Carl
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

---I was really surprised when I found that major chord. It seems that this
---would be a way for me to understand the relationships in 22 EDO and I bet

---someone's done it already.

    Along those lines, I was wondering...22TET, at least in theory, seems god-awfully close to 24TET (perfect 1/4 tones), which (of course) encompasses all of 12TET (half tones). 
   You'd think 22TET would be good for making "12 TET with a different emotional spin" due to it's including intervals that are very close (slightly sharp and flat) 12TET approximations.  23TET would probably be good for that as well, as would 24, 25, and 26TET (all are very close to being consecutive 1/4 tones).
  That, and you can modulate between 12TET and 12TET down about 1/4 step pretty closely with such scales.  You would think it would be possible to apply 12TET theory to find subsets of the notes that correspond closely with 12TET...and then extend it by adding a few new chords using notes between 1/4 and a bit less than 1/2 tones away from their 12TET interval equivalents to make completely new-sounding chords.  Has anyone seen anyone do such things (perhaps as an extension to Arabic or Indian music)?

-Michael

--- On Wed, 12/3/08, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>
Subject: Re: [MMM] Daily experiments 22, indian d , adaptive 12 equal
To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, December 3, 2008, 2:11 PM

I agree with that assessment. I think there is some good things to be found

there.

I was wondering - has anyone set up a tabulation of 12 EDO versus 22 EDO in

frequency?

I was really surprised when I found that major chord. It seems that this

would be a way for me to understand the relationships in 22 EDO and I bet

someone's done it already.

Thanks,

Chris

On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 12:28 PM, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:

> Chris wrote:

> >I dunno - to be honest I'm liking 22 edo more and more. Its different but

> >still can be managed.

>

> To my ear, of all the examples you've posted lately, one stands

> out clearly as being most interesting from an intonation perspective,

> and that was the one you posted in 22.

>

> -Carl

>

>

>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Chris wrote:

>I was wondering - has anyone set up a tabulation of 12 EDO versus
>22 EDO in frequency?

Frequency? You mean, how well do its intervals approximate JI? If
so, then yes, a gazillion comparisons have been done, not only with
12 and 22 but with all equal temperaments up to insanely large ones.
And whether you're looking at 5-limit JI or 11-limit JI or looking
for interesting commas and scales, 22 always comes out very near the
top in terms of efficiency at doing what it does per note.

12, 31, 41, 46, and 72 are other notable players.

>I was really surprised when I found that major chord. It seems that
>this would be a way for me to understand the relationships in 22 EDO
>and I bet someone's done it already.

Ultimately the only way to understand the relationships in a tuning
is to learn to perform/improvise/compose in that tuning.

But if you can think of something that shows the relationships in
12-ET that you'd like to see an analogous version for 22-ET of, let
me know and I'll try to make it for you.

In my opinion, usually the best way to visualize tunings is with
a generalized keyboard layout, either as a diagram, or (gasp!)
on a real generalized keyboard instrument.

-Carl

Michael wrote:
> Along those lines, I was wondering...22TET, at least in theory,
>seems god-awfully close to 24TET (perfect 1/4 tones),

You think so? I think it's about as far from 24-ET as one can get.
Step size isn't a very good indicator of musical character, since
tiny differences in the step size compound as the tuning unfolds.

> You'd think 22TET would be good for making "12 TET with a different
>emotional spin" due to it's including intervals that are very close
>(slightly sharp and flat) 12TET approximations.

You'd be wrong. 22 doesn't support meantone, which is what most
12-ET-based music relies on. If you want something that sounds like
tuning X but with tiny microtonal variations, you generally need to
go way above 2X. For instance, 72 can be used to sound like 12
but with microtonal variations.

-Carl

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Vaisvil"
<chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
>
> Ok,
>
> Here is a collection of 3 using z3ta+ under a pseudonym "charlie"
>
> 22 notes per octave using the scale Carl sent me - Carl is this EDO?
>
> This piece was composed using that tuning. It is repeated at
various tempi
> and once reversed,
>
> http://clones.soonlabel.com/mp3/daily20081121b.mp3
>
> Then I used the z3ta+ supplied indian_d.scl and ran the same midi
file
> through to VSTi
>
> http://clones.soonlabel.com/mp3/daily20081126indiand.mp3
>
> Then I set the VSTi to 12 equal and turned on adaptive tuning at
100% and
> ran the same midi file again.
>
> http://clones.soonlabel.com/mp3/daily20081126j12adap.mp3
>
>
> Not a great composition but this is fun to do.
>
> Chris
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
From Robert. An interesting thread which reminds me of
Shakespeare's "Much Ado About Nothing". I am reminded of the
saying of "straining at gnats and swallowing camels". How
interesting that such a topic can elicit such a reponse from
such a diverse group of characters.

I've seen tabulations that show how scale degrees compare, frequency,
ratios, scale names.

That sort of thing. I figured someone has done that already.

As to the generalized keyboard.... I don't have $2,100 or $500 right now.
And to be honest a quadcore computer would be higher on my list.

-----------
But if you can think of something that shows the relationships in
12-ET that you'd like to see an analogous version for 22-ET of, let
me know and I'll try to make it for you.

In my opinion, usually the best way to visualize tunings is with
a generalized keyboard layout, either as a diagram, or (gasp!)
on a real generalized keyboard instrument.

-Carl

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At 04:25 AM 12/4/2008, you wrote:
>I've seen tabulations that show how scale degrees compare, frequency,
>ratios, scale names.

If you have ratios you don't need frequencies. They present the
same information proviso an arbitrary "concert pitch".

>That sort of thing. I figured someone has done that already.

It has. Just type "equal 22" into scala and then "show scale"
and you'll see all the cents values.

-Carl

Weird I don't think I got what you are replying to. Aum as I remember had interesting pieces on tis that worked. And another microtonalist whose name escapes me.
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: Carl Lumma <carl@...>

Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 09:30:06
To: <MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [MMM] Daily experiments 22, indian d , adaptive 12 equal

> The harsh reality is, for example, as a DJ I find it very hard to
>find micro-tonal that sounds resolved enough that I could fling it
>upon an audience and have many of them "get it" so I can play it
>without being embarrassed or "unproductive".

Try 19. I think it's an obvious candidate for electronica.

-Carl

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> The harsh reality is, for example, as a DJ I find it very hard to

>find micro-tonal that sounds resolved enough that I could fling it

>upon an audience and have many of them "get it" so I can play it

>without being embarrassed or "unproductive" . -me

---Try 19. I think it's an obvious candidate for electronica. -Carl

    I have done so twice IE in two songs.  Though it meets my standards for "resolved-ness"/consonance, either people seem to think it is out of tune (IE using my own or other peoples' 8-note scales within 19TET) or they only think it's in tune as I am using subsets that approximate 12-TET.
  The few people who I've found who enjoy 19TET are mostly avid classical listeners (even though my 12TET music is in general more popular with electronica fans than classical ones).  This seems to say 19TET has definite potential, but perhaps not so much in electronica but rather genres with a wider range of consonance (I am guessing...perhaps jazz and blues as well...I have seen a few jazz/blues guitarists who have semi-successfully dabbled in 19TET).

    Yes, I'm being stubborn but, in short, 19TET does not quite seem to quite do it for polyphonic electronica. 
    Although, if you know any electronic producers or DJ's who have gotten anywhere making/mixing songs in 19TET (and probably done a much better job than I have), I would be very eager to hear their works.
 
-Michael

--- On Fri, 12/5/08, chrisvaisvil@... <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:
From: chrisvaisvil@... <chrisvaisvil@...>
Subject: Re: [MMM] Daily experiments 22, indian d , adaptive 12 equal
To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, December 5, 2008, 8:04 AM

Weird I don't think I got what you are replying to. Aum as I remember had interesting pieces on tis that worked. And another microtonalist whose name escapes me.

Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----

From: Carl Lumma <carl@...>

Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 09:30:06

To: <MakeMicroMusic@ yahoogroups. com>

Subject: Re: [MMM] Daily experiments 22, indian d , adaptive 12 equal

> The harsh reality is, for example, as a DJ I find it very hard to

>find micro-tonal that sounds resolved enough that I could fling it

>upon an audience and have many of them "get it" so I can play it

>without being embarrassed or "unproductive" .

Try 19. I think it's an obvious candidate for electronica.

-Carl

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Michael wrote:
> Yes, I'm being stubborn but, in short, 19TET does not quite seem
>to quite do it for polyphonic electronica.

You're saying this after using it in 2 pieces? Don't you think that's
a bit hasty? 12-ET takes a lifetime to master and 19 is no different.
Plenty of classical fans like 12-ET, that doesn't stop it from being
applicable in jazz, rock, and electronica.

> Although, if you know any electronic producers or DJ's who have
>gotten anywhere making/mixing songs in 19TET (and probably done a much
>better job than I have), I would be very eager to hear their works.

I don't know about 19-ET in particular. But Jacky Ligon, Marcus Hobbs,
and Scott Bruzenak have made excellent microtonal electronica.

-Carl

--You're saying this after using it in 2 pieces? Don't you think that's

--a bit hasty?

    As I said...someone else may do it better or be able to absorb 19TET better.  But, essentially, I have always composed by ear and most of the complaints I received were about the lack of consonance in the chords...and at the same time some micro-tonal fans have said my 19TET songs are still relatively consonant vis a vis most micro-tonal. 
    One of those songs (the second one I have made in 19TET) is here:
http://www.traxinspace.com/song/37440

   Meanwhile, when I tried ideal sets of notes from 41TET and came up with the following
http://www.traxinspace.com/song/40893
...It's not popular or great by any means but, on a relative basis, it has received a much better response despite being the first ever song I composed in 41TET...and even a better response than most of my 12TET songs. 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
   I am not saying someone can't compose great electronic music in 19TET, or that I couldn't
learn how to given tons of practice...
    But, rather, my experience shows me scales made from subsets of other micro-tunings come more naturally to my ears and I am pretty sure there's a mathematical reason for it that goes beyond simple lack of practice on my part.

---But Jacky Ligon, Marcus Hobbs,
---and Scott Bruzenak have made excellent microtonal electronica.
I will definitely have to check those out.

-Michael

--- On Fri, 12/5/08, Carl Lumma <carl@...g> wrote:
From: Carl Lumma <carl@...>
Subject: Re: [MMM] Daily experiments 22, indian d , adaptive 12 equal
To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, December 5, 2008, 11:17 AM

Michael wrote:

> Yes, I'm being stubborn but, in short, 19TET does not quite seem

>to quite do it for polyphonic electronica.

You're saying this after using it in 2 pieces? Don't you think that's

a bit hasty? 12-ET takes a lifetime to master and 19 is no different.

Plenty of classical fans like 12-ET, that doesn't stop it from being

applicable in jazz, rock, and electronica.

> Although, if you know any electronic producers or DJ's who have

>gotten anywhere making/mixing songs in 19TET (and probably done a much

>better job than I have), I would be very eager to hear their works.

I don't know about 19-ET in particular. But Jacky Ligon, Marcus Hobbs,

and Scott Bruzenak have made excellent microtonal electronica.

-Carl

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

i remember allot of the aphex twin stuff being microtonal

/^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere: North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

chrisvaisvil@... wrote:
>
> Weird I don't think I got what you are replying to. Aum as I remember > had interesting pieces on tis that worked. And another microtonalist > whose name escapes me.
> Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Carl Lumma <carl@... <mailto:carl%40lumma.org>>
>
> Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 09:30:06
> To: <MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:MakeMicroMusic%40yahoogroups.com>>
> Subject: Re: [MMM] Daily experiments 22, indian d , adaptive 12 equal
>
> > The harsh reality is, for example, as a DJ I find it very hard to
> >find micro-tonal that sounds resolved enough that I could fling it
> >upon an audience and have many of them "get it" so I can play it
> >without being embarrassed or "unproductive".
>
> Try 19. I think it's an obvious candidate for electronica.
>
> -Carl
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

Michael wrote:
> One of those songs (the second one I have made in 19TET) is here:
>http://www.traxinspace.com/song/37440

That's great. What about this don't you like?

>Meanwhile, when I tried ideal sets of notes from 41TET and came up
>with the following
>http://www.traxinspace.com/song/40893
>...It's not popular or great by any means but, on a relative basis, it
>has received a much better response despite being the first ever song
>I composed in 41TET...and even a better response than most of my 12TET
>songs.

It's also nice, but I like the first track much better. I wouldn't
say this is necessarily due to with the tuning though. This one seems
more repetitive and the transitions are more abrupt.

> I am not saying someone can't compose great electronic music in
>19TET, or that I couldn't learn how to given tons of practice...
> But, rather, my experience shows me scales made from subsets of
>other micro-tunings come more naturally to my ears and I am pretty
>sure there's a mathematical reason for it that goes beyond simple lack
>of practice on my part.

Well, it really depends on how you're picking scales from larger
tunings. For the 41-ET piece, it sounds like you picked something
very close to 12-ET. It's easier to do that in a larger tuning
like 41 than it is in 19. So maybe you're looking for something
a little more familiar.

-Carl

---That's great. What about this don't you like?

Glad you liked it :-)...
...In fact most everyone I have heard so far who is "used" to micro-tonal has liked that 19TET piece, along with it's weird 8-note non-JI-like scales.
I really dislike "nothing" particular about it...but reality strikes in its 2.5 star rating and reminds me how frustrating it is so many people see micro-tonal as "random dissonance"...and how nice it would be to help knock down that barrier. :-)
Meaning...while this song certainly meets my standards for consonance, I doubt it can convince many others to give 19TET a chance (I have always hoped my favorite 12TET artists, for example, could be convinced to "go micro").
I, for one, can still tell there's a significant degree less "resolve" in the notes, even though I think the tension plays well for the mood I was trying to create (the song is supposed to represent the thought of someone who could once see who had gone blind with age using imagination to substitute for his vision and feeling the mixed beauty of it).

> It's also nice, but I like the first track much better.
> I wouldn't
> say this is necessarily due to with the tuning though.
> This one seems
> more repetitive and the transitions are more abrupt.
Agreed...it is...much more repetitive. In fact I agree, the compositional effort given in the first track was much more, while the second was more about complex arrangement, production, and energy level (especially the beat)...and the transitions (including the lack of fill-ins/break-downs) could use some work.
The funny thing is, despite the compositional effort on track #1, this track is rated MUCH better by others (4 stars)...and seems to say (at least within my compositional ability) it is much easier to get people to listen to scales under 41TET than 19TET.

> For the 41-ET piece, it sounds like you picked
> something
> very close to 12-ET. It's easier to do that in a
> larger tuning
> like 41 than it is in 19.
Well, yes and no. :-D The main chorus part (with the intro melody) is essentially matched to 12TET (indeed VERY closely)...but the other 3 sections are actually based on 10 and 11 note subsets of 41TET with ratios not at all like 12TET.
The cool thing is...most people can't seem to tell that I have switched between a 12TET approximation and 2 other completely different scales.

So, in short, I believe 41TET isn't necessarily better because it can "better match 12TET"...but because it has more possible selections, many of which can produce a similar mood/character to 12TET even with weird intervals.

-Michael

Mike , imho trying to relate a rating on a site where the listeners are composers to true popularity is likely to be skewed. They, by the nature of things, are more sensitive to issues like tuning. Have you tried more public sites like last fm or soundclick or garageband?
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Sheiman <djtrancendance@...>

Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 11:33:27
To: <MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [MMM] Daily experiments 22, indian d , adaptive 12 equal

---That's great. What about this don't you like?

Glad you liked it :-)...
...In fact most everyone I have heard so far who is "used" to micro-tonal has liked that 19TET piece, along with it's weird 8-note non-JI-like scales.
I really dislike "nothing" particular about it...but reality strikes in its 2.5 star rating and reminds me how frustrating it is so many people see micro-tonal as "random dissonance"...and how nice it would be to help knock down that barrier. :-)
Meaning...while this song certainly meets my standards for consonance, I doubt it can convince many others to give 19TET a chance (I have always hoped my favorite 12TET artists, for example, could be convinced to "go micro").
I, for one, can still tell there's a significant degree less "resolve" in the notes, even though I think the tension plays well for the mood I was trying to create (the song is supposed to represent the thought of someone who could once see who had gone blind with age using imagination to substitute for his vision and feeling the mixed beauty of it).

> It's also nice, but I like the first track much better.
> I wouldn't
> say this is necessarily due to with the tuning though.
> This one seems
> more repetitive and the transitions are more abrupt.
Agreed...it is...much more repetitive. In fact I agree, the compositional effort given in the first track was much more, while the second was more about complex arrangement, production, and energy level (especially the beat)...and the transitions (including the lack of fill-ins/break-downs) could use some work.
The funny thing is, despite the compositional effort on track #1, this track is rated MUCH better by others (4 stars)...and seems to say (at least within my compositional ability) it is much easier to get people to listen to scales under 41TET than 19TET.

> For the 41-ET piece, it sounds like you picked
> something
> very close to 12-ET. It's easier to do that in a
> larger tuning
> like 41 than it is in 19.
Well, yes and no. :-D The main chorus part (with the intro melody) is essentially matched to 12TET (indeed VERY closely)...but the other 3 sections are actually based on 10 and 11 note subsets of 41TET with ratios not at all like 12TET.
The cool thing is...most people can't seem to tell that I have switched between a 12TET approximation and 2 other completely different scales.

So, in short, I believe 41TET isn't necessarily better because it can "better match 12TET"...but because it has more possible selections, many of which can produce a similar mood/character to 12TET even with weird intervals.

-Michael

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]