128-note retuning in NI products

Michael Kurz:
>Several people (including Jim Aiken of Keyboards) have pointed out that
>they'd prefer to have full 128 note microtuning.
>I decided only to implement 12+spread tuning because it is much easier to
>handle because you are not overwhelmed by a flood of parameters.
>I am still looking for an elegant way to handle (edit, display and store)
>128-note microtuning data.

Here is a brief correspondence I have had with Michael Kurz, Synthesis
Technology
Director for NI, regarding microtuning in NI products. I would like to get some
suggestions to send him in regard to adding 128-note microtuning support. I
don't believe an "elegant" system is needed in regard to a visual display or
modification of tuning data. I think it would be adequate if functional 128
note support was added via text file/table loading similar to the Pro-52. Since
there is already a tool to convert in a limited fashion the Scala DB to the
Pro-52 tuning files (12-note retuning) it would be easy to adapt to 128 note
support. I am interested in gaining insight into how list members arrange and
work with their tunings and translate them to forms that can be loaded into
synths, etc. Do most of you work with SCALA? Having a conversion utility
between SCALA and 128-note retuning should work in most cases I imagine or at
least greatly increase the use of NI products. I imagine for those that keep
their tunings in a spreadsheet (Excel, etc.) could have a simple tool created
(if you don't work in SCALA) to translate the tunings to a 128-note format
suitable for import.

Any input would be great as I will forward it along in one bunch to Michael by
providing links to the MakeMicroList. Time to get your ideas read by the person
who implements it.

Best,
--Mike

With Reaktor 3.0 you can do 128 note retuning using the event tables.
This may not be elegant, but it does let you load text files.

John Loffink
jloffink@...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike Leahy [mailto:catharsis@...]
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 3:38 PM
> To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [MMM] 128-note retuning in NI products
>
> Michael Kurz:
> >Several people (including Jim Aiken of Keyboards) have pointed out
that
> >they'd prefer to have full 128 note microtuning.
> >I decided only to implement 12+spread tuning because it is much
easier to
> >handle because you are not overwhelmed by a flood of parameters.
> >I am still looking for an elegant way to handle (edit, display and
store)
> >128-note microtuning data.
>
> Here is a brief correspondence I have had with Michael Kurz, Synthesis
> Technology
> Director for NI, regarding microtuning in NI products. I would like to
get
> some
> suggestions to send him in regard to adding 128-note microtuning
support.
> I
> don't believe an "elegant" system is needed in regard to a visual
display
> or
> modification of tuning data. I think it would be adequate if
functional
> 128
> note support was added via text file/table loading similar to the
Pro-52.
> Since
> there is already a tool to convert in a limited fashion the Scala DB
to
> the
> Pro-52 tuning files (12-note retuning) it would be easy to adapt to
128
> note
> support. I am interested in gaining insight into how list members
arrange
> and
> work with their tunings and translate them to forms that can be loaded
> into
> synths, etc. Do most of you work with SCALA? Having a conversion
utility
> between SCALA and 128-note retuning should work in most cases I
imagine or
> at
> least greatly increase the use of NI products. I imagine for those
that
> keep
> their tunings in a spreadsheet (Excel, etc.) could have a simple tool
> created
> (if you don't work in SCALA) to translate the tunings to a 128-note
format
> suitable for import.
>
> Any input would be great as I will forward it along in one bunch to
> Michael by
> providing links to the MakeMicroList. Time to get your ideas read by
the
> person
> who implements it.
>
> Best,
> --Mike
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

At 08:22 PM 1/31/2002 -0600, you wrote:
With Reaktor 3.0 you can do 128 note retuning using the event tables.
This may not be elegant, but it does let you load text files.

Yes, I know this fact for Reaktor (does it work well? I don't have Reaktor), I
should have noted the products in question. I was hoping to collect ideas in
regard to the limited 12-note retuning capability in the Pro-52 and FM7 and
possible future NI soft-synth/samplers (NI has one coming soon, Kontakt) that
might have limited tuning capabilities. I would like to forward these ideas
onto the synthesis director at NI who is implementing this functionality.

For the FM7, Pro-52 and future NI softsynths is a no-frills (IE non graphic
display) text loading interface with 128-note
retuning adequate ("better") if a conversion utility supporting SCALA is
available? I am interested in how composers on this list store their original
tuning data. Is SCALA a standard? If stored in a tabular format a conversion
utility could be made (by/for the individual; Perl to the rescue!) to transfer
them to a format readable for import into future version of NI softsynths.
Are there other ideas or concerns?

Here is a link to a SCALA conversion utility with 12-note limited coverage for
the NI Pro-52 and a few other softsynths (some unlimited).
http://www.mendozadil.freeserve.co.uk/Scale.html
This can be extended to covert the SCALA DB to the Reaktor event tables as you
mentioned if someone sends the author of Scale Browser an example Reaktor
tuning file. Likewise for Infinity or any other softsynth supporting tuning
file import.

Best..
--Mike

Hello Mike,

What's the format of this text file? Something like
the Korg OASIS format? Rather than having a separate
conversion utility for Scala scale files, I might add
it to Scala itself. A direct conversion is not always
a good idea, since then there is no way to have
different mappings from note numbers to scale degrees.

Manuel

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At 01:40 PM 2/1/2002 +0100, you wrote:
>What's the format of this text file? Something like
the Korg OASIS format?

It doesn't exist yet. I would like to propose to NI a solution that will meet
the needs of the working microtonal community. Right now from my brief
communication with NI it seems that they have not heard enough "use cases" to
determine a standard implementation across all NI products. The support between
the Pro-52 microtonal features and the FM7 is very different; it shows that NI
is trying a few ideas. Retuning in the FM7 is much "easier" to use from the
standpoint of someone who is not familiar with scale construction or the theory
of tuning (or lack of resources from a DB like SCALA). So, I see a definite
trade off in usability over the issue of representing retuning in an "elegant"
manner. What I would like to propose to NI is that an "elegant" solution for
the majority of microtonal community (those that will most likely take
advantage of retuning) is functionality over a nice visual display that would
be difficult to implement for full 128-note retuning support and accurate
microtonal scale representation. I might also note that the FM7 only allows 32
scales to be stored at once. It is much more "usable" for scales to be loaded
from file when thousands exist.

>Rather than having a separate conversion utility for Scala scale files, I
might add it to Scala itself. A direct conversion is not always a good idea,
since then there is no way to have different mappings from note numbers to
scale degrees.

This is good news!

What would the most appropriate mapping format be to support Scala? I assume
that if 128-note retuning were supported you would indicate the midi note
number as the key paired with a value.
I must admit that I am still in my learning/exploring phase with microtonality,
so I am not aware of the problem you are mentioning with scale degrees. Could
you write more on this? If you had to implement text file import of retuning
data into softsynths how would you do it, so that it keeps the most flexibility
and integrity in regarding to supporting the microtonal/Scala side?

---

Other people that have contacted NI in regard to 128-note retuning include Jim
Aikin (senior editor of Keyboard magazine). I held a brief email conversation
with Aikin and he is sure keen on the issue. You might also want to check out
his music technology page:
http://www.musicwords.net/musictech/musictechindex.htm
Jim seems like a very good ally for microtonality. I don't know how much has
been covered in Keyboard magazine as I never have been a reader, but perhaps
someone from this list can approach him about writing an article (for the
masses) to be included in Keyboard magazine?

Best,
--Mike

Mike,

Am I right in understanding that these soft
synthesizers receive MIDI and can be played like a
hardware synthesizer?

Is there some reason then why MIDI Tuning Standard
sysex messages, which are part of the official MIDI
standard (and available from the IMA, off the net, or
I have a copy laying about & would be willing to send
it to your contact if you like) would be inappropriate?

Advantages:

1 It is a standard.
2 Tuning software on the Mac and PC can transmit these
or save them to files.
3 Sysex tuning messages can be inserted into sequences
so that compositions can use multiple tunings (text
files don't allow for this).
4 Once messages are in your sequencer, you don't need
to fire up tuning software or load special files
separately - the info is stored in your sequence.
5 Many existing syntesizers and samplers already use
these messages for tuning -- you can even dump tunings
directly from one instrument to another.
6 This is how many composers who work with tunings do
it already.
7 Any of the 128 notes can be tuned to any pitch you
like.
8 Extremely fine tuning resolution.

Disadvantages:

None?

- Jeff

Mike wrote:
>I must admit that I am still in my learning/exploring phase with
microtonality,
>so I am not aware of the problem you are mentioning with scale degrees.
Could
>you write more on this?

Let's say you have created a 22-note scale and you want to use
two octaves on the keyboard to play one real octave. So you
have to distribute 22 scale degrees over 24 keys. The choices
you have, for example which key to start the scale on, are
described in a keyboard mapping file. Scala uses a scale file
plus a keyboard mapping file to tune a synthesizer.

>It doesn't exist yet. I would like to propose to NI a solution that will
meet
>the needs of the working microtonal community.

The best solution obviously is to convince them to implement
the MTS, see http://www.midi.org/about-midi/tuning.htm
Certainly for real-time tuning. For fixed tuning too, if they
choose this I don't need to do anything since it's already
supported by Scala (and instruments mainly of Emu and Ensoniq).

A text file like for the Korg OASIS is a possibility too, but
soft synths should support a higher resolution than the one
cent of Korg. It has 128 lines, one for each note number, like
this
C#0 D0 -43
The first is the note to be tuned, the next the nearest note
number of the pitch and an offset in cents between -50 and 50.
The advantage is that it's easily edited by hand and the note
names instead of numbers make it more easily readable.
But if NI chooses this they should allow for fractional cents
values.

Manuel

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At 03:39 PM 2/1/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>Am I right in understanding that these soft
synthesizers receive MIDI and can be played like a
hardware synthesizer?

Correct.

>Is there some reason then why MIDI Tuning Standard
sysex messages, which are part of the official MIDI
standard

This certainly is appropriate. I was aware of a midi tuning specification, but
do not have hardware or software that supports it so it didn't come to my
attention until you mentioned it. This seems to be a very valid and very
workable solution for both composers/users and NI. It is something that can be
implemented across all of their products.

>2 Tuning software on the Mac and PC can transmit these
or save them to files.

This solves a key problem. By having software available both on the Mac and PC
this alleviates NI from creating a program/interface to modify tuning data.
Besides Scala is there a program that enables the user to graphically
manipulate midi tuning files on Mac and PC? Could you provide me with links to
these programs on both platforms? That would be fantastic.

>Disadvantages:
None?

I can't see any either at the moment.

>For fixed tuning too, if they
choose this I don't need to do anything since it's already
supported by Scala (and instruments mainly of Emu and Ensoniq).

Manuel and Jeff thanks for the information.

I will forward this on once I can find links to associated tuning software for
the Mac and PC.

On another note: In the Electronic Musician magazine for February there is an
article on microtonal tuning by Scott Wilkinson (author of Tuning in:
Microtonality in Electronic Music).

Best,
--Mike

Egregious
"Spiritual renewal through music for those outside the heard."
http://www.egregious.net/

Mike wrote:
>Besides Scala is there a program that enables the user to graphically
>manipulate midi tuning files on Mac and PC?

"midi tuning files"? I think you're confusing something, you have the
1. MIDI Tuning Standard
2. Standard MIDI Files

MTS messages can be put anywhere in a SMF, so the software playing a SMF
should expect them at any time.
Scala manipulates midi files only in the sense that it can retune them.
Once there is a player capable of receiving MTS messages, I can finally
add that, because now the only way is to use pitch bends, which is an
awkward way and the number of midi channels is a heavy restriction.
Scala also creates a SMF with an MTS tuning dump. I don't know why
anyone would edit it after it has been created.

Manuel

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

For Manuel and anyone else that can help brainstorm on this one! ;)

>"midi tuning files"? I think you're confusing something, you have the
1. MIDI Tuning Standard
2. Standard MIDI Files
MTS messages can be put anywhere in a SMF, so the software playing a SMF
should expect them at any time.

Yes, I am aware of that fact. My brainstorm indicated that it should be proper to store individual and independent tuning files. It would be easy to integrate file loading using the MTS standard for the file content (they are already loading other sysex data for the programs in the FM7, etc.). Of course it would be great if the synths would support real time MTS sysex input that certainly should be lobbied for, but in the meantime a good middle ground is an implemented file loading procedure supporting MTS.

My question about a stand alone editor for MTS "files" is that once an MTS file exists it would be nice to have a graphical display where sections of the notes could be copy/pasted/edited/dragged/dropped around a virtual 128 note keyboard. Also this would allow visual creation of new scales or the facility to integrate two or more scales at once by dragging them to different regions. The creation of a cross platform tool like this would solve NIs doubts. Conceivably I could write this in Java sometime in June after I graduate.

>Scala also creates a SMF with an MTS tuning dump. I don't know why
anyone would edit it after it has been created.

Multiple scales spread through out the 128 note range.
Does Scala allow you to position to root note at a particular location on creation.
Visual aid for scale creation/manipulation

Just some ideas; I would like to hear anybodies input.

Cheers,
--Mike

Egregious
"Spiritual renewal through music for those outside the heard."
http://www.egregious.net/

Mike,

>My question about a stand alone editor for MTS "files" is that once an
MTS
>file exists it would be nice to have a graphical display where sections
of
>the notes could be copy/pasted/edited/dragged/dropped around a virtual
128
>note keyboard.

Hmm, this seems to me analogous to editing a Word file at the byte level.
There are only tuning numbers in an "MTS file", no ratios, no exact cents
values.

>Also this would allow visual creation of new scales or the
>facility to integrate two or more scales at once by dragging them to
>different regions.

You could also create a scale out of two or more scales, and transform
that into MTS messages.

>The creation of a cross platform tool like this would solve NIs doubts.

Writing a whole computer program for a lobby purpose seems rather a
waste of time. Surely there must be a better way of convincing them.
How about giving them a miserable failure of a retuned midi file
using the pitch bend method, and tell them if they'd implement those
*&%@( MTS messages it would be a piece of cake.
How much time would it cost to implement it really, one day, two days
including testing? Surely much less than the program you're proposing.

>Does Scala allow you to position to root note at a particular location on
>creation.

Yes, see Edit->Edit mapping.
Anyone else any ideas?

Manuel