Cross post from tuning list on pentatonic scales

I thought I'd cross post this over here on MMM, since it's possible
that some people whose opinions I value don't go over to the "old"
Tuning List anymore... JP:

I'm reading an interesting book on the music of Bela Bartok by Erno
Lendvai. I'll bet some of you are familiar with this book.

His analyis of geometry and the golden section as it pertains to the
music of Bartok is particularly fascinating.

He also makes an interesting pronouncement about pentatonic scales
and "tonal" harmony.

His thesis, it seems, is that simple pentatonic scales are native, or
natural to the human ear and to all societies basically because of
the construction of the cochlea in the ear, which he says has
a "logarithmic structure" which would correspond to what he terms
the "so-la-so-mi" (2:3:5) (??) relations of pentatonic scales.

He claims that the later development of tonality came only with the
advent of instruments, and harmonies based upon the overtone series
(hence just intonation as we frequently know it) are
somewhat "artificial" to the basic human animal and not, essentially,
corporeal at all.

Has anyone heard a similar analysis or have impressions of these
thoughts?

Thanks again!

Pentatonic vary greatly around the world. So much so that they might have nothing else in common except 5 notes.
not all of these are of the SSLSL variety. there are LLSLS versions of pentatonics. some slendro 's are this way.
In fact the fibonacci series would produce this type of pentatonic.

all said i have returned to pentatonics (20 different ones in relative size)
I think of them as almost basic building blocks in the sense of them being complete and onto themselves. More like cells then than atoms.

/^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere: North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

Joseph Pehrson wrote:
>
> I thought I'd cross post this over here on MMM, since it's possible
> that some people whose opinions I value don't go over to the "old"
> Tuning List anymore... JP:
>
> I'm reading an interesting book on the music of Bela Bartok by Erno
> Lendvai. I'll bet some of you are familiar with this book.
>
> His analyis of geometry and the golden section as it pertains to the
> music of Bartok is particularly fascinating.
>
> He also makes an interesting pronouncement about pentatonic scales
> and "tonal" harmony.
>
> His thesis, it seems, is that simple pentatonic scales are native, or
> natural to the human ear and to all societies basically because of
> the construction of the cochlea in the ear, which he says has
> a "logarithmic structure" which would correspond to what he terms
> the "so-la-so-mi" (2:3:5) (??) relations of pentatonic scales.
>
> He claims that the later development of tonality came only with the
> advent of instruments, and harmonies based upon the overtone series
> (hence just intonation as we frequently know it) are
> somewhat "artificial" to the basic human animal and not, essentially,
> corporeal at all.
>
> Has anyone heard a similar analysis or have impressions of these
> thoughts?
>
> Thanks again!
>
>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>
wrote:
>
> Pentatonic vary greatly around the world. So much so that they
might
> have nothing else in common except 5 notes.
> not all of these are of the SSLSL variety. there are LLSLS versions
of
> pentatonics. some slendro 's are this way.
> In fact the fibonacci series would produce this type of pentatonic.
>
> all said i have returned to pentatonics (20 different ones in
relative
> size)
> I think of them as almost basic building blocks in the sense of
them
> being complete and onto themselves. More like cells then than atoms.
>
>
> /^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
> Mesotonal Music from:
> _'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
>
> _'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
> Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria
<http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>
>
> ',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',
>
>
>
>
> Joseph Pehrson wrote:
> >
> > I thought I'd cross post this over here on MMM, since it's
possible
> > that some people whose opinions I value don't go over to the "old"
> > Tuning List anymore... JP:
> >
> > I'm reading an interesting book on the music of Bela Bartok by
Erno
> > Lendvai. I'll bet some of you are familiar with this book.
> >
> > His analyis of geometry and the golden section as it pertains to
the
> > music of Bartok is particularly fascinating.
> >
> > He also makes an interesting pronouncement about pentatonic scales
> > and "tonal" harmony.
> >
> > His thesis, it seems, is that simple pentatonic scales are
native, or
> > natural to the human ear and to all societies basically because of
> > the construction of the cochlea in the ear, which he says has
> > a "logarithmic structure" which would correspond to what he terms
> > the "so-la-so-mi" (2:3:5) (??) relations of pentatonic scales.
> >
> > He claims that the later development of tonality came only with
the
> > advent of instruments, and harmonies based upon the overtone
series
> > (hence just intonation as we frequently know it) are
> > somewhat "artificial" to the basic human animal and not,
essentially,
> > corporeal at all.
> >
> > Has anyone heard a similar analysis or have impressions of these
> > thoughts?
> >
> > Thanks again!
> >
> >
>

***Thanks for the post, Kraig! I was hoping I would hear from you
regarding pentatonic scales. Yes, Lendvai is particularly interested
in pentatonics that are created from the Fibonacci series since
Bartok seemingly uses this approach.

I have never seen an analysis, though, where the "constructed" scale
from Fibonacci or what he calls "golden section"
methods, "logarithmic" he claims, are actually considered
the "natural" or we might say "corporeal" scales and things based
upon the overtone series are considered "machine made" or "contrived"
and, hence, not as native.

This was definitely a new take on things. I remember from the past
some studies which claimed that the ear vibrated in ratios along with
simple just ratios, so there may be conflicting studies.

In any case, the Golden Section is intriguing and even involves
quadratic equations (which I don't know how to do, regrettably... :)
to solve.

Bartok really does use these methods. Either that or there is an
extraordinary coincidence in almost every one of his works as to
where the recapitulation appears... Not really possible...

JP

There is an analysis that finds the same proportion in Debussy. quite convincingly. something to the effect of imitation the proportion of a sea shell to capture the sea?!:)
Neither of these two can do no wrong. Even though i know one academic who refers to Bartok as a 'minor composer'. This makes my blood pressure go up ! 
,',',',Kraig Grady,',',',
'''''''North/Western Hemisphere: 
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
'''''''South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria
',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

 
-----Original Message-----
From: Joseph Pehrson [mailto:jpehrson@...]
Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 05:06 PM
To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MMM] Cross post from tuning list on pentatonic scales

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>
wrote:
>
> Pentatonic vary greatly around the world. So much so that they
might
> have nothing else in common except 5 notes.
> not all of these are of the SSLSL variety. there are LLSLS versions
of
> pentatonics. some slendro 's are this way.
> In fact the fibonacci series would produce this type of pentatonic.
>
> all said i have returned to pentatonics (20 different ones in
relative
> size)
> I think of them as almost basic building blocks in the sense of
them
> being complete and onto themselves. More like cells then than atoms.
>
>
> /^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
> Mesotonal Music from:
> _'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
>
> _'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
> Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria
<http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>
>
> ',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',
>
>
>
>
> Joseph Pehrson wrote:
> >
> > I thought I'd cross post this over here on MMM, since it's
possible
> > that some people whose opinions I value don't go over to the "old"
> > Tuning List anymore... JP:
> >
> > I'm reading an interesting book on the music of Bela Bartok by
Erno
> > Lendvai. I'll bet some of you are familiar with this book.
> >
> > His analyis of geometry and the golden section as it pertains to
the
> > music of Bartok is particularly fascinating.
> >
> > He also makes an interesting pronouncement about pentatonic scales
> > and "tonal" harmony.
> >
> > His thesis, it seems, is that simple pentatonic scales are
native, or
> > natural to the human ear and to all societies basically because of
> > the construction of the cochlea in the ear, which he says has
> > a "logarithmic structure" which would correspond to what he terms
> > the "so-la-so-mi" (2:3:5) (??) relations of pentatonic scales.
> >
> > He claims that the later development of tonality came only with
the
> > advent of instruments, and harmonies based upon the overtone
series
> > (hence just intonation as we frequently know it) are
> > somewhat "artificial" to the basic human animal and not,
essentially,
> > corporeal at all.
> >
> > Has anyone heard a similar analysis or have impressions of these
> > thoughts?
> >
> > Thanks again!
> >
> >
>

***Thanks for the post, Kraig! I was hoping I would hear from you
regarding pentatonic scales. Yes, Lendvai is particularly interested
in pentatonics that are created from the Fibonacci series since
Bartok seemingly uses this approach.

I have never seen an analysis, though, where the "constructed" scale
from Fibonacci or what he calls "golden section"
methods, "logarithmic" he claims, are actually considered
the "natural" or we might say "corporeal" scales and things based
upon the overtone series are considered "machine made" or "contrived"
and, hence, not as native.

This was definitely a new take on things. I remember from the past
some studies which claimed that the ear vibrated in ratios along with
simple just ratios, so there may be conflicting studies.

In any case, the Golden Section is intriguing and even involves
quadratic equations (which I don't know how to do, regrettably... :)
to solve.

Bartok really does use these methods. Either that or there is an
extraordinary coincidence in almost every one of his works as to
where the recapitulation appears... Not really possible...

JP

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]