Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup makemicromusic Dave's Interactive Algorithmic Composition

You all remember this, right?

http://www.uq.net.au/~zzdkeena/Music/StereoDekany.htm

If not, it's time to play!

Last night I met with Glen Peterson, whom many of you may remember as the maker of microtonal guitars for Jon Catler and others. I brought him a few lattices to look at. Afterwards, I sent him the link above. Here are his comments:

"I had a great time last night. It was great to finally meet you in person
after so many years of email correspondence. Our conversation really pushed
my concepts of tuning, consonance, and scale and instrument design into a
new dimension (literally, not in the trite sense). I wonder what kind of
possibilities for instrument design there are for incorporating the
3-dimensional lattice you showed me last night?

StereoDekany rocks! This is quite possibly the most enthusiastic I've ever
felt about a piece of computer music. I can hardly wait to get home and
whip out my 3-D glasses."

🔗Jonathan M. Szanto <JSZANTO@...>

🔗paulerlich <paul@...>

🔗Jonathan M. Szanto <JSZANTO@...>

Paul,

{you wrote...}
>I'm hoping it will happen via getting him excited about some new scales.

Even if he only creates guitars for himself, they are beautiful. Too bad niche-market instrument-making is impossible to exist on (I just received similar news from a world-class marimba maker in No. Cal....)

>making effective music using a truly "alternate" tuning system is a little >like inventing a whole new language and then learning to speak it fluently >. . . takes time!

I'd go even farther: it's not just that you're trying to speak it, you're trying to learn a new language and then write incredible new books, poems, plays, etc... Daunting and exciting, all at the same time!

I've been doing a lot of Partch research for this weekend, and going over a lot of Harry's unpublished writings and talking/interviews. Hair-raising, and also gives one hope for the ability, as you are showing, to not give up the cause.

Cheers,
Jon

🔗D.Stearns <STEARNS@...>

Hi Paul,

My experience was a little different, well a lot different
actually--every step of the way I was inspired to dig in do something,
and it was always easy because I was interested in it, or at least
that's the way it seemed to me.

Effective music means very different things to different people (to
say the least), and when it comes to music, 'inventing a whole new
language and then learning to speak it fluently' is more often a gift
than it is a problem...

Sure, hone your skills and learn all you can learn, but trust your
intuition and your inspiration too, and as they say in boxing, 'let
your hands go'!

take care,

--Dan Stearns

----- Original Message -----
From: "paulerlich" <paul@...>
To: <MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 4:37 PM
Subject: Re: [MMM] Dave's Interactive Algorithmic Composition

> --- In MakeMicroMusic@y..., "Jonathan M. Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...>
wrote:
> > Paul,
> >
> > Good to see you hooked up with Glen, a truly great guy (what can
we
> *do* to
> > get him back into luthier work???)
>
> I'm hoping it will happen via getting him excited about some new
> scales. Despite having taking serious composition courses at
Berklee,
> and sumbitted pieces for his microtonal glass-harmonicon, Glen told
> me he still finds the theory far more fascinating than the
> frustrating attempt to make music out of it . . . personally, I'm
not
> planning to ever resign in that way -- lots more microtonal music
> coming this year -- but I certainly understand the frustration --
> making effective music using a truly "alternate" tuning system is a
> little like inventing a whole new language and then learning to
speak
> it fluently . . . takes time!
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>

🔗paulerlich <paul@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@y..., "D.Stearns" <STEARNS@C...> wrote:
> Hi Paul,
>
> My experience was a little different, well a lot different
> actually--every step of the way I was inspired to dig in do
something,
> and it was always easy because I was interested in it, or at least
> that's the way it seemed to me.

Well, it's not like I wasn't digging in . . . but it took quite a
while before I found _ways_ of digging in that made my _ears_ happy.

> Sure, hone your skills and learn all you can learn, but trust your
> intuition and your inspiration too, and as they say in boxing, 'let
> your hands go'!

I've had that experience myself, but I find it's all too easy to let
my hands do the talking, and allow my ear to get lost in the
process . . . actually some people do like the results of my doing
that, but it feels "superficial" to me . . . my personal path is
going to have to hold hands with my ear and aural imagination (and
yes, a huge amount of intuition) at least as I see it from my current
vantage point . . . your mileage may vary!

I guess I'd like to see alternate tunings really become accepted by
the mainstream, and not remain an avant-garde phenomenon . . . this
means, to me, seeking out pitch relationships which are easy to hear,
or at least ones which psychoacoustics (e.g. Parncutt) suggests might
be relatively easy to comprehend once we break out of our familiar
categorizing habits . . . thus all the theory stuff. As a musician
who knows what it's like to touch an audience, I feel uniquely
qualified and obligated to follow this path . . . and I'm very sorry
if I'd inadvertantly tread on you or others in the process!

And yes, I do believe somewhat in the adage that you need to learn to
walk before you can run . . . my 12-tET musical life seems to have
confirmed this in many areas . . . so if I do end up creating some
really artful microtonal masterworks, it won't be for quite some time!

🔗D.Stearns <STEARNS@...>

Paul,

Hmm, I probably should've finished off the boxing analogy with a
'because if they don't know what to do by now they probably never
will!'

Hands... ears... I never think of one in total exclusion of the other
and my experience tells me things just don't work that way--I mean
either it's good or it's something else, right? Incidentally, I'm
listening to Ives' Thoreau right now, and Thoreau himself once wrote
that, "The faintest assured objection which one healthy man feels will
at length prevail over the arguments and customs of mankind."

As I've said many times before, I was naturally attracted to
dissonances and complex sonorities long before I knew they were either
dissonant or complex, or who Ives or even Thoreau were for that
matter, the avant-guard the mainstream and Parncutt be damned!

Your experiences and opinions are your own, and hats off to you for
having them, but I think you seriously overestimate their
universality.

take care,

--Dan Stearns

----- Original Message -----
From: "paulerlich" <paul@...>
To: <MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 6:13 PM
Subject: Re: [MMM] Dave's Interactive Algorithmic Composition

> --- In MakeMicroMusic@y..., "D.Stearns" <STEARNS@C...> wrote:
> > Hi Paul,
> >
> > My experience was a little different, well a lot different
> > actually--every step of the way I was inspired to dig in do
> something,
> > and it was always easy because I was interested in it, or at least
> > that's the way it seemed to me.
>
> Well, it's not like I wasn't digging in . . . but it took quite a
> while before I found _ways_ of digging in that made my _ears_ happy.
>
> > Sure, hone your skills and learn all you can learn, but trust your
> > intuition and your inspiration too, and as they say in boxing,
'let
> > your hands go'!
>
> I've had that experience myself, but I find it's all too easy to let
> my hands do the talking, and allow my ear to get lost in the
> process . . . actually some people do like the results of my doing
> that, but it feels "superficial" to me . . . my personal path is
> going to have to hold hands with my ear and aural imagination (and
> yes, a huge amount of intuition) at least as I see it from my
current
> vantage point . . . your mileage may vary!
>
> I guess I'd like to see alternate tunings really become accepted by
> the mainstream, and not remain an avant-garde phenomenon . . . this
> means, to me, seeking out pitch relationships which are easy to
hear,
> or at least ones which psychoacoustics (e.g. Parncutt) suggests
might
> be relatively easy to comprehend once we break out of our familiar
> categorizing habits . . . thus all the theory stuff. As a musician
> who knows what it's like to touch an audience, I feel uniquely
> qualified and obligated to follow this path . . . and I'm very sorry
> if I'd inadvertantly tread on you or others in the process!
>
> And yes, I do believe somewhat in the adage that you need to learn
to
> walk before you can run . . . my 12-tET musical life seems to have
> confirmed this in many areas . . . so if I do end up creating some
> really artful microtonal masterworks, it won't be for quite some
time!
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
------
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>

🔗paulerlich <paul@...>

Dear Dan,

--- In MakeMicroMusic@y..., "D.Stearns" <STEARNS@C...> wrote:
> Paul,
>
> Hmm, I probably should've finished off the boxing analogy with a
> 'because if they don't know what to do by now they probably never
> will!'

Well, everyone I know seems to think they know what to do, though of
course I'll personally never be fully satisfied . . .

> Hands... ears... I never think of one in total exclusion of the
other
> and my experience tells me things just don't work that way--I mean
> either it's good or it's something else, right?

Right . . . but you can have more or less exclusion between the two.
You can imagine the entire piece even before you pick up the
instrument, or you can play it based on motion alone with no
consideration of sound, or anything in-between . . . right? Not
saying one is better than the other . . . but they sure seem
different.

> Your experiences and opinions are your own, and hats off to you for
> having them, but I think you seriously overestimate their
> universality.

Hmm . . . everything I've posted on this list, is my opinion and my
opinion alone, and I'm just as much or as little of humanity as any
other individual . . . I've never suggested otherwise, though I must
say that I feel a lot less "crazy" when there are others whos hearts
have led them to come to some of the same conclusions as I have . . .
so let any misunderstanding end right here and now -- my opinions are
no less or more important than your opinions, my vision is no less or
more important than your vision. You, Dan (or any other individual).

Am I really trampling over your spirit with my presence on these
lists? I have no right to do that, whatever the intention. If you say
the word, I will depart from these lists in hope of balancing the
universe.

Peace,
Paul

🔗monz <joemonz@...>

🔗Alison Monteith <alison.monteith3@...>

"Jonathan M. Szanto" wrote:

> Paul,
>
> {you wrote...}
> >I'm hoping it will happen via getting him excited about some new
> scales.
>
> Even if he only creates guitars for himself, they are beautiful. Too
> bad
> niche-market instrument-making is impossible to exist on (I just
> received
> similar news from a world-class marimba maker in No. Cal....)
>
> >making effective music using a truly "alternate" tuning system is a
> little
> >like inventing a whole new language and then learning to speak it
> fluently
> >. . . takes time!
>
> I'd go even farther: it's not just that you're trying to speak it,
> you're
> trying to learn a new language and then write incredible new books,
> poems,
> plays, etc... Daunting and exciting, all at the same time!
>
> I've been doing a lot of Partch research for this weekend, and going
> over a
> lot of Harry's unpublished writings and talking/interviews.
> Hair-raising,
> and also gives one hope for the ability, as you are showing, to not
> give up
> the cause.
>
> Cheers,
> Jon
>

Interesting thread and one close to my heart. Taking the
builder/composer route is a lonely one and at times encouragement is
needed. The lists are so vital in providing this. But sometimes it would
be so much simpler to sit down and write a nice movement for strings.
You have to do so much that most composers wouldn't dream of doing. The
reward is that you feel much more the artist, up to your neck in the raw
material, certainly more dynamic, and, dare I say it, totally in
control. (large grin). You earn the right to wear strange hats. And with
patience and enthusiasm you attract the right people eventually. The
downside is that every time a new notational system comes along it's
like watching the wheel being reinvented before the goods have been got
off to market!

Last weekend I exhibited and demonstrated some of my instruments. It was
most gratifying to answer questions from teenagers from the rock
rehearsals, from music teachers, jazz sax players, traditional fiddle
tutors, arts project funders and a local politician trying to fight cuts
in education budgets. There was even a film crew recording the
proceedings. The whole place stopped still when I played a few long
mournful tones on one of the psalteries. Nobody has ever heard this
timbre before. As a result of the genuine interest we're looking into a
setting up a course in instrument building, from mainly trash and found
materials, for youngsters from socially deprived backgrounds. Scotland
has nothing like this anywhere.

And I'm having dinner soon with one of our best traditional fiddlers
(his brother, fiddler Alistair Fraser, has a band called Skyedance and
lives in California) who is interested in my project. He teaches at the
Royal Academy in Glasgow, has a posse of young players at his disposal
and so another door opens. He could also come in most useful for the
bowed psaltery parts.

It's a bit like the laws of thermodynamics. You put in some energy and
it all comes back out somehow.

At the moment I divide my time between Blackjack and 22 tet. Although I
appreciate the theoretical efforts that others have put in to finding
harmonic structures in Blackjack there's no substitute for listening.
I'm working with two hexanies "joined at the hip" with a G-D fifth. It's
taken me many hours of listening to sort out the musically useful (to my
ears) cadences between the various triads of these hexanies. Then within
the restrictions of the ranges of my instruments I have to find the best
voicings and voice leading. Harmony, counterpoint and orchestration all
from scratch. I hope to post sometime with details of my findings. All
this before the task of finding gullible musicians with a taste for the
bizarre.

So, enough of me - thanks to everyone for the inspiration to continue
ploughing this lonely furrow.

Kind Regards

🔗Dominique Larré <Dominique.Larre@...>

🔗Jonathan M. Szanto <JSZANTO@...>

Alison,

A great note - thanks for the update and your continued searching. But near the bottom, you said:

>So, enough of me -

- No - we'll *never* have too much of the human side of this quest, which *indeed* can be a lonely one at times. Post *anytime* about the personal aspects of making microtonal music (I'll write on this a bit after coming back from the Partch celebration this weekend). And about your other bit:

>thanks to everyone for the inspiration to continue ploughing this lonely >furrow.

"The note of hope
is the only
note
that can help us
or save us
from falling
to the bottom
of the heap of evolution,
because, largely,
about all a human being
is, anyway,
is just a hoping machine . . ."

- Woodie Guthrie

I hope you continue your journey, and I hope all of us on this list do as well.

Cheers,
Jon

🔗D.Stearns <STEARNS@...>

Alison,

This was a really wonderful post, so full of life by someone really
living it--reading it really made my day a better day.

Best of luck to you on your many exciting potential ventures, and good
for you for making such enterprising use of the theory you've been
exposes to on these lists by Paul and all the others. It's very
inspiring--keep up the great work!

take care,

--Dan Stearns

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alison Monteith" <alison.monteith3@...>
To: <MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 3:07 PM
Subject: Re: [MMM] Dave's Interactive Algorithmic Composition

>
>
> "Jonathan M. Szanto" wrote:
>
> > Paul,
> >
> > {you wrote...}
> > >I'm hoping it will happen via getting him excited about some new
> > scales.
> >
> > Even if he only creates guitars for himself, they are beautiful.
Too
> > bad
> > niche-market instrument-making is impossible to exist on (I just
> > received
> > similar news from a world-class marimba maker in No. Cal....)
> >
> > >making effective music using a truly "alternate" tuning system is
a
> > little
> > >like inventing a whole new language and then learning to speak it
> > fluently
> > >. . . takes time!
> >
> > I'd go even farther: it's not just that you're trying to speak it,
> > you're
> > trying to learn a new language and then write incredible new
books,
> > poems,
> > plays, etc... Daunting and exciting, all at the same time!
> >
> > I've been doing a lot of Partch research for this weekend, and
going
> > over a
> > lot of Harry's unpublished writings and talking/interviews.
> > Hair-raising,
> > and also gives one hope for the ability, as you are showing, to
not
> > give up
> > the cause.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Jon
> >
>
> Interesting thread and one close to my heart. Taking the
> builder/composer route is a lonely one and at times encouragement is
> needed. The lists are so vital in providing this. But sometimes it
would
> be so much simpler to sit down and write a nice movement for
strings.
> You have to do so much that most composers wouldn't dream of doing.
The
> reward is that you feel much more the artist, up to your neck in the
raw
> material, certainly more dynamic, and, dare I say it, totally in
> control. (large grin). You earn the right to wear strange hats. And
with
> patience and enthusiasm you attract the right people eventually. The
> downside is that every time a new notational system comes along it's
> like watching the wheel being reinvented before the goods have been
got
> off to market!
>
> Last weekend I exhibited and demonstrated some of my instruments. It
was
> most gratifying to answer questions from teenagers from the rock
> rehearsals, from music teachers, jazz sax players, traditional
fiddle
> tutors, arts project funders and a local politician trying to fight
cuts
> in education budgets. There was even a film crew recording the
> proceedings. The whole place stopped still when I played a few long
> mournful tones on one of the psalteries. Nobody has ever heard this
> timbre before. As a result of the genuine interest we're looking
into a
> setting up a course in instrument building, from mainly trash and
found
> materials, for youngsters from socially deprived backgrounds.
Scotland
> has nothing like this anywhere.
>
> And I'm having dinner soon with one of our best traditional fiddlers
> (his brother, fiddler Alistair Fraser, has a band called Skyedance
and
> lives in California) who is interested in my project. He teaches at
the
> Royal Academy in Glasgow, has a posse of young players at his
disposal
> and so another door opens. He could also come in most useful for
the
> bowed psaltery parts.
>
> It's a bit like the laws of thermodynamics. You put in some energy
and
> it all comes back out somehow.
>
> At the moment I divide my time between Blackjack and 22 tet.
Although I
> appreciate the theoretical efforts that others have put in to
finding
> harmonic structures in Blackjack there's no substitute for
listening.
> I'm working with two hexanies "joined at the hip" with a G-D fifth.
It's
> taken me many hours of listening to sort out the musically useful
(to my
> ears) cadences between the various triads of these hexanies. Then
within
> the restrictions of the ranges of my instruments I have to find the
best
> voicings and voice leading. Harmony, counterpoint and orchestration
all
> from scratch. I hope to post sometime with details of my findings.
All
> this before the task of finding gullible musicians with a taste for
the
> bizarre.
>
> So, enough of me - thanks to everyone for the inspiration to
continue
> ploughing this lonely furrow.
>
> Kind Regards
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>

Dave's Interactive Algorithmic Composition

🔗paul@...

🔗Jonathan M. Szanto <JSZANTO@...>

🔗paulerlich <paul@...>

🔗Jonathan M. Szanto <JSZANTO@...>

🔗D.Stearns <STEARNS@...>

🔗paulerlich <paul@...>

🔗D.Stearns <STEARNS@...>

🔗paulerlich <paul@...>

🔗monz <joemonz@...>

🔗Alison Monteith <alison.monteith3@...>

🔗Dominique Larré <Dominique.Larre@...>

🔗Jonathan M. Szanto <JSZANTO@...>

🔗D.Stearns <STEARNS@...>

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>