Fwd: MICROTONAL COUNTERPOINT.

--- In MicroMadeEasy@yahoogroups.com, "robert thomas martin"
<robertthomasmartin@...> wrote:

I recently purchased Counterpointer from Ars Nova Software at

http://www.ars-nova.com/cp/

In the OPTIONS--SET TEMPERAMENT (built-in) one can select:

1. Equal temperament
2. Meantone (1/4 comma)
3. Vallotti (1/6 comma)
4. Kirnberger (1/2 comma)
5. Temperament Ordinaire
6. Pythagorean (harsh for harmony)
7. Extended meantone
8. "Just" tuning in C.

OR

Any 12-note tuning for external midi.

MY OPINION: It's worth getting.

--- End forwarded message ---

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "robert thomas martin"
<robertthomasmartin@...> wrote:
> I recently purchased Counterpointer from Ars Nova Software at

Two things:

1. When getting my undergraduate degree, one semester entailed doing
species counterpoint. For some reason, I was not doing very well, but
another student, who was not a banner talent by any means, was acing
it. I asked her how she was doing so well.

I was trying to learn the rules, but using my ear as well. She, on the
other hand, gave all the rules (along with her assignments) to her
husband, who was *not* a musician. He traveled on business, and would
do the counterpoints on plane trips much like someone would do
crossword puzzles. They were always flawless, because he didn't view
it as music but as puzzles to be solved.

2. That semester was the closest I ever came to blowing my brains out.
I am very thankful for the five-day waiting period on hand gun
purchases. I always managed to calm down.

Cheers,
Jon

Jon!
i have bad news for you,
that same husband is now head of an east coast music school and has won the pulitzer prize:)

/^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere: North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

Jon Szanto wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:MakeMicroMusic%40yahoogroups.com>, "robert thomas martin"
> <robertthomasmartin@...> wrote:
> > I recently purchased Counterpointer from Ars Nova Software at
>
> Two things:
>
> 1. When getting my undergraduate degree, one semester entailed doing
> species counterpoint. For some reason, I was not doing very well, but
> another student, who was not a banner talent by any means, was acing
> it. I asked her how she was doing so well.
>
> I was trying to learn the rules, but using my ear as well. She, on the
> other hand, gave all the rules (along with her assignments) to her
> husband, who was *not* a musician. He traveled on business, and would
> do the counterpoints on plane trips much like someone would do
> crossword puzzles. They were always flawless, because he didn't view
> it as music but as puzzles to be solved.
>
> 2. That semester was the closest I ever came to blowing my brains out.
> I am very thankful for the five-day waiting period on hand gun
> purchases. I always managed to calm down.
>
> Cheers,
> Jon
>
>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <jszanto@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "robert thomas martin"
> <robertthomasmartin@> wrote:
> > I recently purchased Counterpointer from Ars Nova Software at
>
> Two things:
>
> 1. When getting my undergraduate degree, one semester entailed doing
> species counterpoint. For some reason, I was not doing very well,
but
> another student, who was not a banner talent by any means, was acing
> it. I asked her how she was doing so well.
>
> I was trying to learn the rules, but using my ear as well. She, on
the
> other hand, gave all the rules (along with her assignments) to her
> husband, who was *not* a musician. He traveled on business, and
would
> do the counterpoints on plane trips much like someone would do
> crossword puzzles. They were always flawless, because he didn't view
> it as music but as puzzles to be solved.
>
> 2. That semester was the closest I ever came to blowing my brains
out.
> I am very thankful for the five-day waiting period on hand gun
> purchases. I always managed to calm down.
>
> Cheers,
> Jon
>
From Robert. That's very funny. I had a laugh when I read that.
I know how frustrating SATB composing can be. Tearing-the-hair-out-
frustration. Juggling no 4ths from the bass on strong beats and
avoiding the tritone, no parallel 5ths et al can drive a person
crazy. I personally think that Counterpointer is a Godsend for
both research and experimental purposes. The gun laws in Australia
are EXTREMELY strict, a fact for which I am eternally glad. Cheers.

They make up with this by torturing with its immigration and custom policies :)

/^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere: North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

robert thomas martin wrote:
>
> - The gun laws in Australia
> are EXTREMELY strict, a fact for which I am eternally glad. Cheers.
>
>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "robert thomas martin"
<robertthomasmartin@...> wrote:
>
> --- In MicroMadeEasy@yahoogroups.com, "robert thomas martin"
> <robertthomasmartin@> wrote:
>
> I recently purchased Counterpointer from Ars Nova Software at
>
> http://www.ars-nova.com/cp/
>
> In the OPTIONS--SET TEMPERAMENT (built-in) one can select:
>
> 1. Equal temperament
> 2. Meantone (1/4 comma)
> 3. Vallotti (1/6 comma)
> 4. Kirnberger (1/2 comma)
> 5. Temperament Ordinaire
> 6. Pythagorean (harsh for harmony)
> 7. Extended meantone
> 8. "Just" tuning in C.
>
> OR
>
> Any 12-note tuning for external midi.
>

Interesting!
The interesting question for me is: What exactly are the effects of
the choice? Are there actually different counterpoint rule sets, or
is it just producing microtonal output, with pitch-bends or whatever?
Or both?
--
Hans Straub

A public service reminder: in art, rules are meant to be broken, not
followed.

nor have rules ever been a priori.
the concept that you can objectify subjectivity is absurd
one will not get to what another does by trying to discover what one did, by not doing what they didn't do (most of the time by at times might of)

/^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere: North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

Jon Szanto wrote:
>
> A public service reminder: in art, rules are meant to be broken, not
> followed.
>
>

corrected word here below

/^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere: North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

Kraig Grady wrote:
>
> nor have rules ever been a priori.
> the concept that you can objectify subjectivity is absurd
> one will not get to what another does by trying to discover what one
> did, by not doing what they didn't do (most of the time but at times
> might of)
>
> /^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
> Mesotonal Music from:
> _'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/ > <http://anaphoria.com/>>
>
> _'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
> Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/ > <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>>
>
> ',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',
>
> Jon Szanto wrote:
> >
> > A public service reminder: in art, rules are meant to be broken, not
> > followed.
> >
> >
>
>

"Jon Szanto" wrote:

"A public service reminder: in art, rules are meant to be broken, not followed."

Sorry to disagree Jon, but I think that this commonplace is not quite right. A rule in the arts -- for example, a rule in counterpoint or harmony -- is an observation from practice formulated for the reproduction of known quantities and thus not innovative, but rather a point of departure for innovation. It is like a recipe in a cookbook, showing how a particular effect is achieved. Now, it may well be the case that poor teachers give the impression that an innovation in a recipe is a violation of the social contract, like breaking a rule in an etiquette book or worse, but it is often also the case that students fail to recognize that the techniques being taught are a reasonable and time-tested way of replicating aspects of known musical repertoire. I've ran into too many students too count who have become ex-students of music because they felt unduly constrained in their creativity by having to jump through the hoops of harmony and counterpoint exercises. But those hoops have much to recommend themselves precisely because they are exercises, taken out of the high pressure zone in which innovation and creative are expected, and within which any evaluation, say an A,B,C,D,F grade, on a work of art is a highly subjective and often meaningless act. Music history, for which I hesitate to use a term like evolve, does change over time through innovations, both large and small, but the recognition that a new work is innovative depends entirely on its relationship to known music. Recipes work in the same ways: ingredients and methods mutate, recombine, and change constantly, but always against the background of the familiar to which it can be compared positively or negatively. An innovation in etiquette, however, can only be understood by someone who buys into the whole project of "good behavior" as a form of devolution.

djw

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel Wolf" <djwolf@...> wrote:
> Sorry to disagree Jon...

Please don't apologize for disagreeing, as this is the only way we
learn. But I'm just as sorry to say to you that you took me *far* too
seriously, in the main. I use an aphorism like that as a poke to the
consciousness, a prodding to *not* get stuck in the ruts of the past.

You favor a very evolutionary approach to creation in your scheme, but
I also very much appreciate a willingness in a creator to turn their
back on what has passed, and risk abject failure, by wiping the slate
clean and imagining something that is not rooted or transcended.

To each his own, and (thankfully) I occasionally find 'microtonalists'
who like to change the game *beyond* the pitches they choose.

Cheers,
Jon

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <jszanto@...>
wrote:

> You favor a very evolutionary approach to creation in your scheme,
but
> I also very much appreciate a willingness in a creator to turn their
> back on what has passed, and risk abject failure, by wiping the
slate
> clean and imagining something that is not rooted or transcended.
>

No, Jon, I don't think that evolution is the right word -- hence my
insult with the word devolution for the etiquette book followers --
but it is useful to make it clear what "learning he rules" is and
isn't about. Learning the rules does not preclude the quantum leap,
but it can mean that one has a better grasp on both what you're doing
and what you're up against, and the leap is put into some measure and
context.

Some time ago on the tuning list, there was someone who complained
that his violin teacher (at a big state University) was unwilling and
unable to teach him how to play South Indian violin. Was I totally
off base in suggesting that his teacher was being unduly maligned and
that, if he really wanted to learn Karnaktic violin, then he ought to
find a teacher who actually played that instrumenta and knew that
music?

A composer I know who has been working in JI, mostly with his own
ensemble, for almost 30 years, prides himself on having never learned
western music notation. Instead, step-by-step, he's gone about
recreating one aspect or another of notation with his own symbol
set. While, from one point of view, his detachment from a standard
notation could be seen as a key to the development of his music, in
practice, I suspect that the development of his music -- given the
fact that it has since incorporated so many other aspects of western
music performance practice -- would not have been affected negatively
by learning a little bit more.

There have been, are, and will always be musical naifs who will do
extraordinary things, apparently out of the blue, without training or
context. And a lot of new music gets its novelty from acts of
forgetting (rules, traditions, taste...), whether conscious or not.
But most musicians, and the best, most innovative musicians I know,
really do know exactly what they're doing. A little knowledge/
dangerous thing... (as Robert Ashley put it in _Perfect Lives_), but
all things being equal, a default setting of knowing more rather than
knowing less makes more sense.

djw

Daniel,

You do notice, I would hope, that nothing that you have written
contradicts what I wrote. Nothing in that short, quite simplistic
(purposely so) phrase indicates an ignorance - willful or not - of
'the rules'. It simple says to break them when one has the opportunity.

If nothing else, the phrase embodies an attitude, one that I am more
drawn to than it's opposite aesthetic.

Cheers,
Jon

Dan:
I think you used the word evolve which is probably why Jon used the related. I do like the recipe analogy though.
Such 'models' though are not always based on their worth but on their simplicity. I would love to see one for Prokofiev for example. If Schoenberg was as difficult to crack as the former, i seriously doubt he would have received the counterpuntal study in the classroom. It is unfortunate that we know too much about some and nothing about others.
BTW i do use western notation in case you were referring to myself. I don't when not it gets in the way.

/^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere: North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

danieljameswolf wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:MakeMicroMusic%40yahoogroups.com>, "Jon Szanto" <jszanto@...>
> wrote:
>
> > You favor a very evolutionary approach to creation in your scheme,
> but
> > I also very much appreciate a willingness in a creator to turn their
> > back on what has passed, and risk abject failure, by wiping the
> slate
> > clean and imagining something that is not rooted or transcended.
> >
>
> No, Jon, I don't think that evolution is the right word -- hence my
> insult with the word devolution for the etiquette book followers --
> but it is useful to make it clear what "learning he rules" is and
> isn't about. Learning the rules does not preclude the quantum leap,
> but it can mean that one has a better grasp on both what you're doing
> and what you're up against, and the leap is put into some measure and
> context.
>
> Some time ago on the tuning list, there was someone who complained
> that his violin teacher (at a big state University) was unwilling and
> unable to teach him how to play South Indian violin. Was I totally
> off base in suggesting that his teacher was being unduly maligned and
> that, if he really wanted to learn Karnaktic violin, then he ought to
> find a teacher who actually played that instrumenta and knew that
> music?
>
> A composer I know who has been working in JI, mostly with his own
> ensemble, for almost 30 years, prides himself on having never learned
> western music notation. Instead, step-by-step, he's gone about
> recreating one aspect or another of notation with his own symbol
> set. While, from one point of view, his detachment from a standard
> notation could be seen as a key to the development of his music, in
> practice, I suspect that the development of his music -- given the
> fact that it has since incorporated so many other aspects of western
> music performance practice -- would not have been affected negatively
> by learning a little bit more.
>
> There have been, are, and will always be musical naifs who will do
> extraordinary things, apparently out of the blue, without training or
> context. And a lot of new music gets its novelty from acts of
> forgetting (rules, traditions, taste...), whether conscious or not.
> But most musicians, and the best, most innovative musicians I know,
> really do know exactly what they're doing. A little knowledge/
> dangerous thing... (as Robert Ashley put it in _Perfect Lives_), but
> all things being equal, a default setting of knowing more rather than
> knowing less makes more sense.
>
> djw
>
>

http://www.archive.org/
mentioned on the tuning list
a search on counterpoint comes up with Krenek's Tonal counterpoint book

/^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere: North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

Jon Szanto wrote:
>
> Daniel,
>
> You do notice, I would hope, that nothing that you have written
> contradicts what I wrote. Nothing in that short, quite simplistic
> (purposely so) phrase indicates an ignorance - willful or not - of
> 'the rules'. It simple says to break them when one has the opportunity.
>
> If nothing else, the phrase embodies an attitude, one that I am more
> drawn to than it's opposite aesthetic.
>
> Cheers,
> Jon
>
>

http://www.archive.org/details/newsystemofharmo00gariuoft
some interesting ideas

/^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere: North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

Kraig Grady wrote:
>
> http://www.archive.org/ <http://www.archive.org/>
> mentioned on the tuning list
> a search on counterpoint comes up with Krenek's Tonal counterpoint book
>
> /^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
> Mesotonal Music from:
> _'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/ > <http://anaphoria.com/>>
>
> _'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
> Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/ > <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>>
>
> ',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',
>
> Jon Szanto wrote:
> >
> > Daniel,
> >
> > You do notice, I would hope, that nothing that you have written
> > contradicts what I wrote. Nothing in that short, quite simplistic
> > (purposely so) phrase indicates an ignorance - willful or not - of
> > 'the rules'. It simple says to break them when one has the opportunity.
> >
> > If nothing else, the phrase embodies an attitude, one that I am more
> > drawn to than it's opposite aesthetic.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Jon
> >
> >
>
>

Kraig Grady wrote:
> http://www.archive.org/
> mentioned on the tuning list
> a search on counterpoint comes up with Krenek's Tonal counterpoint book

Good work! The link being

http://www.archive.org/details/totalcounterpoin007382mbp

I ordered this years ago from my local music shop. It was supposed to be in print in Argentina or something but they couldn't track it down.

Graham

I always liked the Modal one he did, and got more out of that one than most others on the same subject, no species at all!
didn't know this one existed!

/^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere: North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

Graham Breed wrote:
>
> Kraig Grady wrote:
> > http://www.archive.org/ <http://www.archive.org/>
> > mentioned on the tuning list
> > a search on counterpoint comes up with Krenek's Tonal counterpoint book
>
> Good work! The link being
>
> http://www.archive.org/details/totalcounterpoin007382mbp > <http://www.archive.org/details/totalcounterpoin007382mbp>
>
> I ordered this years ago from my local music shop. It was
> supposed to be in print in Argentina or something but they
> couldn't track it down.
>
> Graham
>
>

Kraig Grady wrote:
> I always liked the Modal one he did, and got more out of that one than > most others on the same subject, no species at all!
> didn't know this one existed!

You mean more than one Krenek book on counterpoint? Well, I couldn't find any.

Graham

not on that site
but he did one on 16th century counterpoint
i cant find my copy since i moved but i will send you a copy when it shows up. it is small but loaded

/^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere: North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

Graham Breed wrote:
>
> Kraig Grady wrote:
> > I always liked the Modal one he did, and got more out of that one than
> > most others on the same subject, no species at all!
> > didn't know this one existed!
>
> You mean more than one Krenek book on counterpoint? Well, I
> couldn't find any.
>
> Graham
>
>