Request for Assistance on a Scale

I am working on a project that requires prehistoric music.

I found this article in wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_music

and was wondering if anyone knew the correct scale interpretation of
this sentence:

The bone flute plays both the five- or seven-note scale of Xia Zhi and
six-note scale of Qing Shang of the ancient Chinese musical system.

Neither of the scales are listed in this reference on Chinese music:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/29/Modality.gif

If you have another suggestion that is non-Chinese it would be welcome
also.

Thanks,

Chris

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "vaisvil" <chrisvaisvil@...>
wrote:
>
> I am working on a project that requires prehistoric music.
>
> I found this article in wikipedia
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_music
>
> and was wondering if anyone knew the correct scale interpretation of
> this sentence:
>
> The bone flute plays both the five- or seven-note scale of Xia Zhi
and
> six-note scale of Qing Shang of the ancient Chinese musical system.
>
>
> Neither of the scales are listed in this reference on Chinese music:
>
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/29/Modality.gif
>
> If you have another suggestion that is non-Chinese it would be
welcome
> also.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chris
>

From Robert. Google "Garman Harbottle" and you might find what you
are looking for.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "robert thomas martin"
<robertthomasmartin@...> wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "vaisvil" <chrisvaisvil@>
> wrote:
> >
> > I am working on a project that requires prehistoric music.
> >
> > I found this article in wikipedia
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_music
> >
> > and was wondering if anyone knew the correct scale interpretation
of
> > this sentence:
> >
> > The bone flute plays both the five- or seven-note scale of Xia
Zhi
> and
> > six-note scale of Qing Shang of the ancient Chinese musical
system.
> >
> >
> > Neither of the scales are listed in this reference on Chinese
music:
> >
> > http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/29/Modality.gif
> >
> > If you have another suggestion that is non-Chinese it would be
> welcome
> > also.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Chris
> >
>
> From Robert. Google "Garman Harbottle" and you might find what
you
> are looking for.
>
More from Robert. Googling "9,000 year old chinese flutes-nature
magazine artical" will get you where you want to go. There are even
some cent values if you know how to interpret them. If not, then ask
a flautist.

I would think many things this old may not have been very precise... I
would feel free to take artistic license with the details of the cents
values without being guilty of betraying the "source materials." :)

Chris

2008/6/23 robert thomas martin <robertthomasmartin@...>:
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "robert thomas martin"
>
> <robertthomasmartin@...> wrote:
>>
>> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "vaisvil" <chrisvaisvil@>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > I am working on a project that requires prehistoric music.
>> >
>> > I found this article in wikipedia
>> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_music
>> >
>> > and was wondering if anyone knew the correct scale interpretation
> of
>> > this sentence:
>> >
>> > The bone flute plays both the five- or seven-note scale of Xia
> Zhi
>> and
>> > six-note scale of Qing Shang of the ancient Chinese musical
> system.
>> >
>> >
>> > Neither of the scales are listed in this reference on Chinese
> music:
>> >
>> > http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/29/Modality.gif
>> >
>> > If you have another suggestion that is non-Chinese it would be
>> welcome
>> > also.
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> >
>> > Chris
>> >
>>
>> From Robert. Google "Garman Harbottle" and you might find what
> you
>> are looking for.
>>
> More from Robert. Googling "9,000 year old chinese flutes-nature
> magazine artical" will get you where you want to go. There are even
> some cent values if you know how to interpret them. If not, then ask
> a flautist.
>
>

--
"Doing the same thing over and over again and hoping you'll get a
different result is the definition of insanity."

At 02:47 AM 6/23/2008, you wrote:
>I am working on a project that requires prehistoric music.
>
>I found this article in wikipedia
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_music
>
>and was wondering if anyone knew the correct scale interpretation of
>this sentence:
>
>The bone flute plays both the five- or seven-note scale of Xia Zhi and
>six-note scale of Qing Shang of the ancient Chinese musical system.
>
>
>Neither of the scales are listed in this reference on Chinese music:
>
>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/29/Modality.gif
>
>If you have another suggestion that is non-Chinese it would be welcome
>also.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Chris

It's my understanding that some of the earlier bone flutes
did in fact have equal hole spacing and therefore produced
subharmonic series scales. Subharmonics 5-10, for instance,
sound cool.

Conventional thinking holds that all music was melodic only
until relatively recently. However I suspect this is another
example of incorrectly imposing hierarchical structure in
anthropology. We now know that people traversed the oceans
in boats 50,000 (not 5,000) years ago, so I don't see why
two flutists (or vocalists) would scrupulously avoid playing
together. From there it is relatively straightforward to
develop some notion of harmony. Joe Monzo believes cuneiform
tablets from 1200 BC describe hymn-like music.

http://tonalsoft.com/monzo/babylonian/hurrian/monz-h6.aspx

-Carl

At 04:22 AM 6/23/2008, you wrote:
>I would think many things this old may not have been very precise... I
>would feel free to take artistic license with the details of the cents
>values without being guilty of betraying the "source materials." :)
>
>Chris

I also don't trust Chinese anthropology.

-Carl

vaisvil wrote:
> I am working on a project that requires prehistoric music.
> > I found this article in wikipedia
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_music
> > and was wondering if anyone knew the correct scale interpretation of
> this sentence:
> > The bone flute plays both the five- or seven-note scale of Xia Zhi and
> six-note scale of Qing Shang of the ancient Chinese musical system.

I hope you appreciate my looking into this because I've got a stinking cold and should be asleep. Anyway, I think your Xia Zhi is 下徵 for "under note" (下 has many related meanings). It's a major scale (Ionian). Qing Shang looks like 清商 for "pure commerce" (both characters have many meanings including being names of dynasties). It's got a flattened seventh which makes it ... Mixolydian. Which is the wrong number of notes but never mind.

In case you didn't follow Robert's directions, they lead here:

http://www.shakuhachi.com/K-9KChineseFlutes-Nature.html

which suggests Western Zhou and that looks right. That's bronze age and so outside your brief -- probably because they're known from bronze bells.

This is the reference for the scales:

http://www.dxsheng.com/Article/HTML/25172.html

Google can translate it and it almost makes sense but the names come out as "under mobilized" and "tune-to". If you think it's important I can find people to puzzle it out further. It doesn't look at all reliable. There are lots more hits from Google though.

> Neither of the scales are listed in this reference on Chinese music:
> > http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/29/Modality.gif
> > If you have another suggestion that is non-Chinese it would be welcome
> also.

You mean non-Chinese scales? Good luck on finding non-Chinese references :-P

Graham