To Cameron.

I have actually read Schillinger's 2 volume work although I wouldn't
want to read it again. In the early 1980's some of his ideas were quite
interesting to me but the only thing that has stuck in my mind is his
geometric expansions which are simple scaling procedures for
transforming for example Bach's music into Debussy-type music and vice
versa.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "robert thomas
martin" <robertthomasmartin@...> wrote:
>
> I have actually read Schillinger's 2 volume work although I
wouldn't
> want to read it again. In the early 1980's some of his ideas were
quite
> interesting to me but the only thing that has stuck in my mind is
his
> geometric expansions which are simple scaling procedures for
> transforming for example Bach's music into Debussy-type music and
vice
> versa.
>

I just intermittently browsed through 20 years ago but oddly enough I
do remember some of the basic ideas behind the kind of thing you
mention above. I believe it was my first introduction to what's going
on in "algorithmic composition". There must be people programming his
tranformations these days.

One thing about combinatorics is, it is as old as the hills. To me it
doesn't matter a bit of something is old or new.

-Cameron Bobro

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "robert thomas martin"
<robertthomasmartin@...> wrote:
>
> I have actually read Schillinger's 2 volume work although I wouldn't
> want to read it again. In the early 1980's some of his ideas were
quite
> interesting to me but the only thing that has stuck in my mind is his
> geometric expansions which are simple scaling procedures for
> transforming for example Bach's music into Debussy-type music and
vice
> versa.
>
More from Robert. Transforming Bach's (or similar) music into Debussy-
like music is done like
this.
Keep all C's as C
Change all C#'s to D
Change all D's to E
Change all Eb's to F#
Change all E's to Ab
Change all F's to Bb
Change all F#'s to C
Change all G's to D
Change all Ab's to E
Change all A's to F#
Change all Bb's to Ab
Change all B's to Bb

This is for members who are unfamiliar with Schillinger's ideas.

I'm quite interested to hear what your micro-tonal music sounds like...

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'll continue my ill-advised rate of posting to say that
I love Cameron's music, I find it very unique and interesting,
and that googling him brings up the only link I know about:

http://www.zebox.com/bobro/

Any more, Cameron?

-Carl

At 02:26 PM 6/18/2008, you wrote:
>I'm quite interested to hear what your micro-tonal music sounds like...
>

> I'll continue my ill-advised rate of posting to say that
> I love Cameron's music, I find it very unique and interesting,
> http://www.zebox.com/bobro/

Yes, indeed!
And it's really nice and refreshing to hear microtonal singing.

Rick

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "robert thomas martin"
<robertthomasmartin@...> wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "robert thomas martin"
> <robertthomasmartin@> wrote:
> >
> > I have actually read Schillinger's 2 volume work although I
wouldn't
> > want to read it again. In the early 1980's some of his ideas were
> quite
> > interesting to me but the only thing that has stuck in my mind is
his
> > geometric expansions which are simple scaling procedures for
> > transforming for example Bach's music into Debussy-type music and
> vice
> > versa.
> >
> More from Robert. Transforming Bach's (or similar) music into
Debussy-
> like music is done like
>
this.

> Keep all C's as C
> Change all C#'s to D
> Change all D's to E
> Change all Eb's to F#
> Change all E's to Ab
> Change all F's to Bb
> Change all F#'s to C
> Change all G's to D
> Change all Ab's to E
> Change all A's to F#
> Change all Bb's to Ab
> Change all B's to Bb
>
> This is for members who are unfamiliar with Schillinger's ideas.
>
More from Robert. Some microtonalists use unique hexatonic scales
which can be substituted in the step procedure above. Even two
different microtonally hexatonic scales can be substituted for novel
effects.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
>
> I'll continue my ill-advised rate of posting to say that
> I love Cameron's music, I find it very unique and interesting,
> and that googling him brings up the only link I know about:
>
> http://www.zebox.com/bobro/
>
> Any more, Cameron?
>
> -Carl

Thanks, it's great to get good reactions of course! There must be
other stuff up, but the zebox site and what I upload for listening
here is really the only stuff I'd not be embarrased to present here
because either it's newer and therefore completely microtonal (rather
than hopelessly fighting 12-tET) and it's not "you had to be there"
in nature (intermedia/interactive stuff, not going to upload eight
hours of disembodied sounds, hahaha! When they figure out how to
digitally host hash smoke and sexy dancers...)

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "robert thomas
martin" <robertthomasmartin@...> wrote:

> More from Robert. Some microtonalists use unique hexatonic
>scales
> which can be substituted in the step procedure above. Even two
> different microtonally hexatonic scales can be substituted for
>novel
> effects.
>

There are some things very important to notice here. In an
environment like 12-tET, everything is on the one hand completely
tonal, as there is no tone without a corresponding perfect 2/1 and
near-perfect 3/2 of <2 cents difference from the harmonic series, and
on the other hand completely atonal as there are no other harmonic,
in the literal sense, intervals other than those derived very
directly from inversions and small stackings of the aforementioned
intervals.

(Possible harmonic, in the literal sense again, identities such as
19/16 with the m3 are a whole different discussion).

Continuing: in 12-tET, E# and F are the same damn thing. They are NOT
the same thing in the bulk of Western music. Even in nominally 12-tET
music, they are not the same. They are different pitches. Only if we
limit music to fixed-pitch 12-tET instruments are they the same pitch.
In the world of voices, reeds, brass, strings and even quality
synthesis and sampling, E# and F are NOT the same pitch.

The M3 above C# is NOT F, it is E#. It is a different frequency.
Schillnger's transformations such as you posted before, in the way
you are applying them (ie., on a fixed-pitch synth rather than say
Glenn Miller's wind section) work on the assumption that there is NO
true D##, E, Fbb, E#, Fb, or F, but two acoustically approximate
"symbols", "E" and "F", doing multiple duty as all six (and more, in
the grand scheme).

Due to...circumstances? my "Western common practice" education is
fundamentally pre-War. I know from drilled physical experience ("do
that again! Ti is sharp when going to Do!") that at the time
Schillinger was rolling, 12-tET was understood as symbolic. Glenn
Miller's winds were NOT interpreting Schillinger ideas on a synth
with 12 fixed pitches to the octave, as you can hear to this day on a
recording.

You might want to think this over a good long time. Or not.

-Cameron Bobro

-Cameron Bobro