Discordant Scales...

Mr. Miller and Mr. Breed...

Thank you both for the suggestions!! With that, I have some material
to chew on this weekend.

Opinion question:

What, in anyone's opinion, are the most pleasantly discordant
intervals out there?

Obviously this would depend on the harmonic content of the instrument
being played... a 220/221 can actually be pretty pleasant with pure
sines, but would be excrutiating on something with a lot of odd
harmonics.

Just a question trying to glean some of the experience of members on
the list who have a) done more of this than I, and b) might have more
experience with physical instruments than I, (being a primarily
computer based musician, sometimes it becomes terribly abstract how
these little beasts would behave if they were, say, 2 metal bars,
instead of two loscil statements. )

Thanks again!

Mark

   My guess is the above fact you stated has to do with the fact the harmonic partials very close to Just Intonation-aligned partials tend to be soothing, producing a chorus-like effect, and yet those a bit far produce terrible roughness.  And two notes far enough away become very distinctly separate tones and become "consonant" relative to each other again.

   I have found any multiple either close than 1.015-ish/1 or a bit further than 1.04/1 sounds very good with pure sines and good experimentation yields combinations that follow that rules and also closely (at least "chorus-closely") match overtones. 
   I also agree with the response on a previous post that, quite often, a scale's having CONSISTENT discordance quite often is more important than having low discordance...the trick is to get the mind in a state where it, more or less, knows what's coming.
  

--- On Fri, 6/6/08, T. Mark Turner <tmarc_turner@...> wrote:
From: T. Mark Turner <tmarc_turner@...>
Subject: [MMM] Discordant Scales...
To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, June 6, 2008, 8:06 AM

Mr. Miller and Mr. Breed...

Thank you both for the suggestions! ! With that, I have some material

to chew on this weekend.

Opinion question:

What, in anyone's opinion, are the most pleasantly discordant

intervals out there?

Obviously this would depend on the harmonic content of the instrument

being played... a 220/221 can actually be pretty pleasant with pure

sines, but would be excrutiating on something with a lot of odd

harmonics.

Just a question trying to glean some of the experience of members on

the list who have a) done more of this than I, and b) might have more

experience with physical instruments than I, (being a primarily

computer based musician, sometimes it becomes terribly abstract how

these little beasts would behave if they were, say, 2 metal bars,

instead of two loscil statements. )

Thanks again!

Mark

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

T. Mark Turner wrote:
> Mr. Miller and Mr. Breed...
> > Thank you both for the suggestions!! With that, I have some material > to chew on this weekend.
> > Opinion question:
> > What, in anyone's opinion, are the most pleasantly discordant > intervals out there?
> > Obviously this would depend on the harmonic content of the instrument > being played... a 220/221 can actually be pretty pleasant with pure > sines, but would be excrutiating on something with a lot of odd > harmonics.

The square root of two (the usual 12-ET tritone) is a good one. Also, intervals based on the golden ratio (sqrt(5) + 1) / 2 have a particular character that's discordant but not unpleasantly so. The golden ratio sounds a bit like 8/5 and a bit like 13/8, but it has a sort of roughness to it, for a lack of a better description.

Loren Temes was one of the first to investigate phi followed by Walter O'Connel. Wilson likewise with notating the converged noble numbers in the scale tree. This lead to the Scales of Mt. Meru and other recurrent sequences which can be seen in the Wilson Archives. The funny thing is that once you go to the most dissonant points there is other acoustical phenomenon. namely proportional triads that make them sound more consonant. The points of greatest harmonic entropy form their own consonant universe per se. So there is a limit in how dissonant one can become .

/^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere: North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_ ^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

Herman Miller wrote:
>
> T. Mark Turner wrote:
> > Mr. Miller and Mr. Breed...
> >
> > Thank you both for the suggestions!! With that, I have some material
> > to chew on this weekend.
> >
> > Opinion question:
> >
> > What, in anyone's opinion, are the most pleasantly discordant
> > intervals out there?
> >
> > Obviously this would depend on the harmonic content of the instrument
> > being played... a 220/221 can actually be pretty pleasant with pure
> > sines, but would be excrutiating on something with a lot of odd
> > harmonics.
>
> The square root of two (the usual 12-ET tritone) is a good one. Also,
> intervals based on the golden ratio (sqrt(5) + 1) / 2 have a particular
> character that's discordant but not unpleasantly so. The golden ratio
> sounds a bit like 8/5 and a bit like 13/8, but it has a sort of
> roughness to it, for a lack of a better description.
>
>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "T. Mark Turner"
<tmarc_turner@...> wrote:
> What, in anyone's opinion, are the most pleasantly discordant
> intervals out there?

Now mind you I haven't heard them all. But, in harmonic-timbre things
like bowed violin, I recommend 11/6 (tame) 13/8 13/9 13/10 (actually,
all supermajor thirds/narrow fourths hold a spell on me - 25/19 17/13
22/17 and on and on)

> Obviously this would depend on the harmonic content of the instrument
> being played... a 220/221 can actually be pretty pleasant with pure
> sines, but would be excrutiating on something with a lot of odd
> harmonics.

220/221's dissonance depends on being in the critical band, yes? i
haven't done much with near-unison clusters...

As far as *scales* go? hmmm Igliashon Jones had a thread a few years
back here about maximally dissonant/alien scales...

-Jacob

Thanks for all of the input gentlepeople...
 
 
Hmmm...  Discord is in the ear of the belistener. 
 
One the 220/221 split... basically when you are playing with very close clusters in simple wave electronic music, what you end up perceiving is the difference tone rather than the notes themselves.  220/221 with simple sines give you a nice 1hz throb. 
 
Problem (or rather strength, as I actually prefer acoustic and electroacoustic sound to pure tone... just don't have the space resources to deal with them) is that when you use instruementation with richer harmonic character all of the harmonics begin to interact and produce difference tones as well... 
 
Something with odd harmonics, 1-3-5-7-9-11,  each harmonic interacts as well...so:
 
220                         221
660 
660

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks for all of the input gentlepeople...
 
 
Hmmm...  Discord is in the ear of the belistener. 
 
One the 220/221 split... basically when you are playing with very close clusters in simple wave electronic music, what you end up perceiving is the difference tone rather than the notes themselves.  220/221 with simple sines give you a nice 1hz throb. 
 
Problem (or rather strength, as I actually prefer acoustic and electroacoustic sound to pure tone... just don't have the space resources to deal with them) is that when you use instruementation with richer harmonic character all of the harmonics begin to interact and produce difference tones as well... 
 
Something with odd harmonics, 1-3-5-7-9-11,  each harmonic interacts as well...so:
 
220                         221
660  
660

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]