V-Accordions now available in button versions!

Holy crap, I hadn't noticed this

http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.aspx?ObjectId=931

(Most V-Accordion models are available in "b" versions, but I
couldn't find a V-Accordion home page so I linked to this model.)

George S., have you got your ears on?

-Carl

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
>
> Holy crap, I hadn't noticed this
>
> http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.aspx?ObjectId=931
>
> (Most V-Accordion models are available in "b" versions, but I
> couldn't find a V-Accordion home page so I linked to this model.)
>
> George S., have you got your ears on?
>
> -Carl

Yes, Carl, I'm still here.

Sorry, but I can't seem to get too excited about this.

As I see it, the chief advantage of the accordion is that it's a
keyboard instrument that's both acoustic and highly portable. If
you're using electronics, then what's the point? Unless this
instrument is battery-powered and has a self-contained amplifier and
speakers, you'll still need an electrical outlet and external
amplifier, so you might as well use a synth with a horizontal
keyboard, which will also free you from the limitations posed by
those prefabricated chords in the left hand. (I abandoned the
conventional Stradella left hand bass-and-chord setup in favor of the
Moschino free-bass system 46 years ago, and never once have I even
thought of going back, so a V-accordion doesn't appeal to me in the
slightest.)

I'll grant that the right-hand button system (with a different black-
white pattern) would be great for a 19-tone tuning, but it would be
preferable to slant the rows to get a true Bosanquet setup, as I did
in this proposal (for my 19+3 tuning):
/tuning-math/files/secor/kbds/
See file KbAc19p3.gif
(You need to be a member of tuning-math to access this.)

In either case, you would still need a decent free-bass setup for the
left hand, which I've previously addressed. See files AcLH19p3.gif
and BassComp.gif at the above link. These detail a modified
Bosanquet button arrangement that's highly suitable for applications
in which the thumb can't be used (and consequently the ability to
cross fingers over the thumb is lost).

If you could get me a 19-tone instrument with dual Bosanquet button
arrangements such as I've shown, then I don't think I'd be able to
contain my excitement. :-D

--George

At 12:42 PM 2/8/2008, you wrote:
>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
>>
>> Holy crap, I hadn't noticed this
>>
>> http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.aspx?ObjectId=931
>>
>> (Most V-Accordion models are available in "b" versions, but I
>> couldn't find a V-Accordion home page so I linked to this model.)
>>
>> George S., have you got your ears on?
>>
>> -Carl
>
>Yes, Carl, I'm still here.
>
>Sorry, but I can't seem to get too excited about this.
>
>As I see it, the chief advantage of the accordion is that it's a
>keyboard instrument that's both acoustic and highly portable.

You don't see any potential for a MIDI button accordion?

>I'll grant that the right-hand button system (with a different black-
>white pattern) would be great for a 19-tone tuning, but it would be
>preferable to slant the rows to get a true Bosanquet setup, as I did
>in this proposal (for my 19+3 tuning):
> /tuning-math/files/secor/kbds/
>See file KbAc19p3.gif
>(You need to be a member of tuning-math to access this.)
>
>In either case, you would still need a decent free-bass setup for the
>left hand, which I've previously addressed.

The original V-Accordion, which we tested at Keybord magazine,
had one (or maybe even two) free bass modes for the left hand.

>If you could get me a 19-tone instrument with dual Bosanquet button
>arrangements such as I've shown, then I don't think I'd be able to
>contain my excitement. :-D

Presumably the MIDI from this accordion could be made to do
what you want. No?

-Carl

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
>
> At 12:42 PM 2/8/2008, you wrote:
> >--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@> wrote:
> >>
> >> Holy crap, I hadn't noticed this
> >>
> >> http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.aspx?ObjectId=931
> >>
> >> (Most V-Accordion models are available in "b" versions, but I
> >> couldn't find a V-Accordion home page so I linked to this model.)
> >>
> >> George S., have you got your ears on?
> >>
> >> -Carl
> >
> >Yes, Carl, I'm still here.
> >
> >Sorry, but I can't seem to get too excited about this.
> >
> >As I see it, the chief advantage of the accordion is that it's a
> >keyboard instrument that's both acoustic and highly portable.
>
> You don't see any potential for a MIDI button accordion?

If you mean a potential for alternative tunings on account of its
regular arrangement of buttons on both right & left sides (which
could be considered a sort of blank canvas), then there's quite a bit
of potential.

> >I'll grant that the right-hand button system (with a different
black-
> >white pattern) would be great for a 19-tone tuning, but it would
be
> >preferable to slant the rows to get a true Bosanquet setup, as I
did
> >in this proposal (for my 19+3 tuning):
> > /tuning-math/files/secor/kbds/
> >See file KbAc19p3.gif
> >(You need to be a member of tuning-math to access this.)
> >
> >In either case, you would still need a decent free-bass setup for
the
> >left hand, which I've previously addressed.
>
> The original V-Accordion, which we tested at Keybord magazine,
> had one (or maybe even two) free bass modes for the left hand.

Okay, so if you could assign single pitches (as opposed to
prefabricated chords) to all of the bass buttons, then there's hope.
In the past I've toyed around with possible schemes for 17- and 19-
tone assignments on the accordion buttons, and I've concluded that
for 19-tone this is reasonable:

Db Eb F G A B C# D# E# Gb Ab Bb C
C D E F# G# A# B# Db Eb F G A B
C# D# Fb Gb Ab Bb C D E F# G# A# B#
Db Eb F G A B C# D# E# Gb Ab Bb C
C D E F# G# A# B# Db Eb F G A B
C# D# E# Gb Ab Bb C D E F# G# A#
B#

Click on "use fixed width font" under "message options" to display
this properly. I've laid this out as the hand would "see" it, so
that the physical top of the instrument is at the right side of the
diagram. Notice that the bottom 3 rows are duplicates of the top 3
rows. Due to space limitations, I've shown only 2 octaves of tones
in 16 diagonal columns of buttons; since the conventional bassboard
has 20 diagonal columns, you would wind up with 3 octaves plus. (I
might want to consider starting the C's in different rows, depending
on the total pitch range.)

> >If you could get me a 19-tone instrument with dual Bosanquet
button
> >arrangements such as I've shown, then I don't think I'd be able to
> >contain my excitement. :-D
>
> Presumably the MIDI from this accordion could be made to do
> what you want. No?

The thing I least like about this is that octaves are in different
rows (for both hands). If the rows were slanted as in my diagrams,
then the octaves would be perfectly aligned, so that the fingers
would avoid moving toward the edges when going into higher or lower
octaves.

But I guess this is better than nothing. The question is how
feasible it would be to remap the pitches.

--George

>> >> http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.aspx?ObjectId=931
>> >>
>> >> (Most V-Accordion models are available in "b" versions, but I
>> >> couldn't find a V-Accordion home page so I linked to this model.)
>>
>> You don't see any potential for a MIDI button accordion?
>
>If you mean a potential for alternative tunings on account of its
>regular arrangement of buttons on both right & left sides (which
>could be considered a sort of blank canvas), then there's quite a bit
>of potential.

Cool.

>> The original V-Accordion, which we tested at Keybord magazine,
>> had one (or maybe even two) free bass modes for the left hand.
>
>Okay, so if you could assign single pitches (as opposed to
>prefabricated chords) to all of the bass buttons, then there's hope.

You definitely can. And you don't have to use the built-in
accordion synth. You could run MIDI out to your fav. microtone-
capable synth.

>In the past I've toyed around with possible schemes for 17- and 19-
>tone assignments on the accordion buttons, and I've concluded that
>for 19-tone this is reasonable:
>
>Db Eb F G A B C# D# E# Gb Ab Bb C
> C D E F# G# A# B# Db Eb F G A B
> C# D# Fb Gb Ab Bb C D E F# G# A# B#
> Db Eb F G A B C# D# E# Gb Ab Bb C
> C D E F# G# A# B# Db Eb F G A B
> C# D# E# Gb Ab Bb C D E F# G# A# B#
>
>Click on "use fixed width font" under "message options" to display
>this properly. I've laid this out as the hand would "see" it, so
>that the physical top of the instrument is at the right side of the
>diagram. Notice that the bottom 3 rows are duplicates of the top 3
>rows. Due to space limitations, I've shown only 2 octaves of tones
>in 16 diagonal columns of buttons; since the conventional bassboard
>has 20 diagonal columns, you would wind up with 3 octaves plus. (I
>might want to consider starting the C's in different rows, depending
>on the total pitch range.)

That looks good.

>The thing I least like about this is that octaves are in different
>rows (for both hands). If the rows were slanted as in my diagrams,
>then the octaves would be perfectly aligned, so that the fingers
>would avoid moving toward the edges when going into higher or lower
>octaves.
>
>But I guess this is better than nothing. The question is how
>feasible it would be to remap the pitches.

Very feasible.

I just called this place:
http://www.musicmagicusa.com/roland.htm

The FR-2b is $2600 (same price as the keyboard version).

-Carl

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
>
> >> >> http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.aspx?
ObjectId=931
> >> >>
> >> >> (Most V-Accordion models are available in "b" versions, but I
> >> >> couldn't find a V-Accordion home page so I linked to this
model.)
> >>
> >> You don't see any potential for a MIDI button accordion?
> >
> >If you mean a potential for alternative tunings on account of its
> >regular arrangement of buttons on both right & left sides (which
> >could be considered a sort of blank canvas), then there's quite a
bit
> >of potential.
>
> Cool.
>
> >> The original V-Accordion, which we tested at Keybord magazine,
> >> had one (or maybe even two) free bass modes for the left hand.
> >
> >Okay, so if you could assign single pitches (as opposed to
> >prefabricated chords) to all of the bass buttons, then there's
hope.
>
> You definitely can. And you don't have to use the built-in
> accordion synth. You could run MIDI out to your fav. microtone-
> capable synth.
>
> >In the past I've toyed around with possible schemes for 17- and 19-
> >tone assignments on the accordion buttons, and I've concluded that
> >for 19-tone this is reasonable:
> >
> >Db Eb F G A B C# D# E# Gb Ab Bb C
> > C D E F# G# A# B# Db Eb F G A B
> > C# D# Fb Gb Ab Bb C D E F# G# A# B#
> > Db Eb F G A B C# D# E# Gb Ab Bb C
> > C D E F# G# A# B# Db Eb F G A B
> > C# D# E# Gb Ab Bb C D E F# G#
A# B#
> >
> >Click on "use fixed width font" under "message options" to display
> >this properly. I've laid this out as the hand would "see" it, so
> >that the physical top of the instrument is at the right side of
the
> >diagram. Notice that the bottom 3 rows are duplicates of the top
3
> >rows. Due to space limitations, I've shown only 2 octaves of
tones
> >in 16 diagonal columns of buttons; since the conventional
bassboard
> >has 20 diagonal columns, you would wind up with 3 octaves plus.
(I
> >might want to consider starting the C's in different rows,
depending
> >on the total pitch range.)
>
> That looks good.

Since the above mapping is an adaptation of my modified Bosanquet
layout, it's a generalized layout that's capable of accommodating
multiple tunings. While you could easily map any tuning in the
meantone family with 6 sharps and 6 flats to 19, other octave
divisions with a reasonable number of tones in a single chain of 5ths
would work, as well.

Here's what two octaves of 17 looks like:

Db Eb F G A B C# D# Gb Ab Bb C
C D E F# G# A# Db Eb F G A B
B C# D# Gb Ab Bb C D E F# G# A#
Db Eb F G A B C# D# Gb Ab Bb C
C D E F# G# A# Db Eb F G A B
B C# D# Gb Ab Bb C D E F# G# A#

As with 19, the the bottom 3 rows are duplicates of the top 3 rows;
however the duplicates are displaced by only 1 diagonal column
(instead of 2, in 19).

And here's 22:

C D E F# A\ B\ C#\ Eb/ Gb Ab Bb C
B C# E\ F#\ G#\ Bb/ Db Eb F G A B
B\ C#\ Eb/ F/ Ab Bb C D E F# A\ B\
Db Eb F G A B C# E\ F#\ G#\ Bb/
C D E F# A\ B\ C#\ Eb/ Gb Ab Bb C
B C# E\ F#\ G#\ Bb/ Db Eb F G A B

Note that in 22 E/ (E lowered by a comma) is equivalent to D#, and F/
is equivalent to Gb. Also observe that the 2 bottom rows are
duplicates of the 2 top rows and that the two middle rows are not
duplicated (unless an additional row were added to the top &
bottom). Thus the duplicates are displaced by 1 diagonal column and
4 rows.

You could even have 31-equal, although there would be only one
duplicate row of pitches (and no duplicates for the right hand).

> >The thing I least like about this is that octaves are in different
> >rows (for both hands). If the rows were slanted as in my
diagrams,

Please observe that I was referring to the diagrams in files
AcLH19p3.gif and BassComp.gif at this link:
/tuning-math/files/secor/kbds/

> >then the octaves would be perfectly aligned, so that the fingers
> >would avoid moving toward the edges when going into higher or
lower
> >octaves.

This would pose the inconvenience of breaking normal fingering
patterns in order to jump to buttons located farther from the edges,
according to the vector. An additional complication is posed by the
fact that, since the "jumping" vector would correspond to the
separation of pairs of buttons sounding duplicate pitches, one's
jumping technique would need to be adjusted according to the number
of tones in the tuning.

A similar situation would occur with the right-hand button keyboard,
where you would have a couple of additional problems. The existing
black/white pattern would be meaningless for non-12 divisions, and
there would be only one row of duplicate pitches in 22, which is not
enough for transpositional invariance.

So it would be a lot better to have a custom-built instrument to
handle multiple tunings.

> >But I guess this is better than nothing. The question is how
> >feasible it would be to remap the pitches.
>
> Very feasible.
>
> I just called this place:
> http://www.musicmagicusa.com/roland.htm
>
> The FR-2b is $2600 (same price as the keyboard version).

Seems reasonable enough. Now if only I were 20 or 30 years
younger ...

--George