Re: Microtuning on Macs in the "real" world - my point made;-)

Thank you Chris, for demonstrating my point so well about "academic nerds".

I am using the same MacBookPro model that the "rookie" was asking about, and to play your ogg files I had to download a third party application, as it failed to load on any of my usual audio players or analysis tools.

The rookie is starting out, not looking for esoteric ways to modify audio.

If s/he should wish to make modifications to input data or playing instruments and samples, there are many plug-ins, and adjustments that can be made from within Logic, including ReWire and bridges, which can be routing back into the Logic..

(Maybe even one for MAX)

Using Logic (with or without GarageBand) newbies can immediately produce some music intuitively instead of having to download and install the Unix converters that I had to use the last time I looked at MAX/MSP.

The tuning resolution within Logic may not be as accurate as some of us would like, yet it does work and the new Logic 8 GUI is much easier to learn and use than earlier versions

At 06:15 AM 12/15/2007, you wrote:
>Thank you Chris, for demonstrating my point so well about "academic
>nerds".
>
>I am using the same MacBookPro model that the "rookie" was asking
>about, and to play your ogg files I had to download a third party
>application, as it failed to load on any of my usual audio players or
>analysis tools.

Perhaps because all your software is created by a company whose
core business depends on proprietary formats that are in direct
competition with ogg?

Had you had any of this installed on your system, you would have
been fine:
http://vorbis.com/software/#macosx

And this list doesn't include the most important one, which all
Mac and Windows and Linux users should have anyway:
http://www.videolan.org/vlc/

-Carl

Hey Charles,

You seem to forget, with all of your nonsensical attack on acedemics
and nerds, that much if not all the software you relish had it's
origins in the work of 'academics and nerds'. One of the inventors of
the synthesizer, Bob Moog, was a 'nerd', the computer you like to use,
was invented by Steve Jobs, a 'nerd', and you are a 'nerd', too, with
your talk of the importance of an esoteric topic for most, tuning. You
also forget that some of these non-corporate, open source tools hold
the keys to innovation (Ogg-Vorbis, for example, which in spite of
less popularity is much more technically accomplished that mp3 for
audio). Ardour, on Linux, is a totally amazing piece of software,
comparable to any multitrack professional environment, impressive
considering it's development model. If you don't like the way they
sound or the interface, etc, just don't use them.

Sometimes, a steep learning curve (CSound, MAX) is rewarded by power
and flexibility. Learning anything worth doing, and doing well, takes
time and effort (like playing an instrument with mastery). That said,
I can understand you points about certain software for beginners, but
I think it's important to give a broad picture of *all* the ooptions,
to let the beginner chosse their path, and not be so smug and
dismissive about the so-called "difficult" options.

I wonder, why do feel so co-dependant on what tools people use...can't
you just leave people alone to work in the environment they are
confortable producing music with? Like it has been said, some tools
that you despise make certain paradigms of music-making possible that
would be otherwise impossible or extremely inefficient in other ways.

We get it, you love Apple® and Logic®...unfortunately, in your
forcefulness, you might to some sound like a pastor at a megachurch
trying to 'save' people. It would be nice if you would cease this
stance, and consider fully that there *might* be some value to the
approaches you personally don't take.

Respectfully,
Aaron.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Charles Lucy <makemicro@...> wrote:
>
> Thank you Chris, for demonstrating my point so well about "academic
> nerds".
>
> I am using the same MacBookPro model that the "rookie" was asking
> about, and to play your ogg files I had to download a third party
> application, as it failed to load on any of my usual audio players or
> analysis tools.
>
> The rookie is starting out, not looking for esoteric ways to modify
> audio.
>
> If s/he should wish to make modifications to input data or playing
> instruments and samples, there are many plug-ins, and adjustments that
> can be made from within Logic, including ReWire and bridges, which can
> be routing back into the Logic..
>
> (Maybe even one for MAX)
>
> Using Logic (with or without GarageBand) newbies can immediately
> produce some music intuitively instead of having to download and
> install the Unix converters that I had to use the last time I looked
> at MAX/MSP.
>
> The tuning resolution within Logic may not be as accurate as some of
> us would like, yet it does work and the new Logic 8 GUI is much easier
> to learn and use than earlier versions
>

On 15/12/2007, Charles Lucy <makemicro@...> wrote:
>
> Thank you Chris, for demonstrating my point so well about "academic
> nerds".

Any time :) And thanks for demonstrating my point that you have no
idea what pd/max is actually used for.

> I am using the same MacBookPro model that the "rookie" was asking
> about, and to play your ogg files I had to download a third party
> application, as it failed to load on any of my usual audio players or
> analysis tools.

My bad, I actually meant to like to the mps:

cmbryan.com/Dialogue.mp3
cmbryan.com/ensemble_sample.mp3

And holy crap let's not start another codec war!!!!

> The rookie is starting out, not looking for esoteric ways to modify
> audio.

Saying that max/pd is an "esoteric audio modifier" is like saying
Logic is a midi sequencer. You'd say they didn't know what they were
talking about, and you'd be right.

Tell me, could I use Logic to hook up a microphone to a live
instrument, send a trigger when I play a note that would begin a
realtime phase vocoding process accompanied by a sequence that
intelligently harmonises with the timbre I just played, using a sound
whose dynamic level corresponds to the current character of my
playing, until I play a very high and loud C-three-quarter-sharp, at
which point something completely different happens?

Ok, that's complex. How about, could you use Logic to make a computer
improvise on a hebdomekontany? (That's the "ensemble" link above)
Could you, in realtime, change the factors of the hebdo. with a click?

> If s/he should wish to make modifications to input data or playing
> instruments and samples, there are many plug-ins, and adjustments that
> can be made from within Logic, including ReWire and bridges, which can
> be routing back into the Logic..
>
> (Maybe even one for MAX)

Which would only be necessary, of course, if max were needed for
something Logic couldn't do ;)

> Using Logic (with or without GarageBand) newbies can immediately
> produce some music intuitively instead of having to download and
> install the Unix converters that I had to use the last time I looked
> at MAX/MSP.

Wow, that's like saying iMacs sucks because you couldn't figure out
your "IIse" in 1980. I started using max in 2002, and there was no
trace of unix by then. I didn't even need a terminal to run PD in
2002.

Logic is more intuitive than max in the same way that a molded plastic
fire truck is more intuitive than a set of legos. One hardly replaces
the other.

By all means, use Logic for midi sequencing and multitracks and fx
plugins! Use max or pd for everything else :)

-Chris

I would like to remind everyone that there is another option for microtuning on Macs in the
"real" world. It's called LMSO ( http://www.nonoctave.com/tuning/LilMissScaleOven/ ) by X.J.
Scott that many of you know, I guess. Logic 8 is great for everything within 12 steps per
octave but with LMSO you can move away from it into non octave scales or multiple divsions
of the octave. you can check out many examples, I composed, on this page of my web site: http://www.seraph.it/Detwelvulation.html
I have also used Max for microtonal applications (my " Instant Gamelan" http://www.seraph.it/XenoTunes3.html is an example) but LMSO suits me perfectly.
I'm only a happy customer, this post has nothing to do with "viral marketing" btw
happy holidays!

Very nice music, thanks for sharing!

Chris

On 17/12/2007, iranief <carlo@...> wrote:
>
> I would like to remind everyone that there is another option for
> microtuning on Macs in the
> "real" world. It's called LMSO (
> http://www.nonoctave.com/tuning/LilMissScaleOven/ ) by X.J.
> Scott that many of you know, I guess. Logic 8 is great for everything
> within 12 steps per
> octave but with LMSO you can move away from it into non octave scales or
> multiple divsions
> of the octave. you can check out many examples, I composed, on this page
> of my web site: http://www.seraph.it/Detwelvulation.html
> I have also used Max for microtonal applications (my " Instant Gamelan"
> http://www.seraph.it/XenoTunes3.html is an example) but LMSO suits me
> perfectly.
> I'm only a happy customer, this post has nothing to do with "viral
> marketing" btw
> happy holidays!
>
>
>

--
"If terrorists can maneuver democracies into employing tactics
indistinguishable from theirs, it could be argued that they have won no
matter what the outcome on the battlefield." -Stanley Fish

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks for reminding us. I've never used LMSO, but now that I
have a Mac I might. Jeff's done a fantastic job with it over
the years.

-Carl

At 01:00 AM 12/17/2007, you wrote:
>I would like to remind everyone that there is another option for
>microtuning on Macs in the
>"real" world. It's called LMSO (
>http://www.nonoctave.com/tuning/LilMissScaleOven/ ) by X.J.
>Scott that many of you know, I guess. Logic 8 is great for everything
>within 12 steps per
>octave but with LMSO you can move away from it into non octave scales
>or multiple divsions
>of the octave. you can check out many examples, I composed, on this
>page of my web site: http://www.seraph.it/Detwelvulation.html
>I have also used Max for microtonal applications (my " Instant
>Gamelan" http://www.seraph.it/XenoTunes3.html is an example) but LMSO
>suits me perfectly.
>I'm only a happy customer, this post has nothing to do with "viral
>marketing" btw
>happy holidays!
>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for reminding us. I've never used LMSO, but now that I
> have a Mac I might. Jeff's done a fantastic job with it over
> the years.

I've found Jeff to be responsive and helpful.

LMSO and Max Magic Microtuner can both generate Max/MSP tuning objects
out of Scala files. LMSO is worth the extra cost over MMM, imo - it
just has a more extensive feature set, and Jeff will try just about
anything to get it to retune a synth that isn't on LMSO's list of
retunable synths.

Will LMSO allow a sample player to play a sample at an altered tuning?
If so, what players [as opposed to synths] does it work on, and which is
it known not to work on?

-----Original Message-----
From: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of paolovalladolid
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 1:43 PM
To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MMM] Re: Microtuning on Macs in the "real" world - my point
made;-)

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for reminding us. I've never used LMSO, but now that I have a
> Mac I might. Jeff's done a fantastic job with it over the years.

I've found Jeff to be responsive and helpful.

LMSO and Max Magic Microtuner can both generate Max/MSP tuning objects
out of Scala files. LMSO is worth the extra cost over MMM, imo - it
just has a more extensive feature set, and Jeff will try just about
anything to get it to retune a synth that isn't on LMSO's list of
retunable synths.

You can ask X.J. Scott directly at http://www.nonoctave.com/contact.html
or check out his list of retunable synths at http://www.nonoctave.com/tuning/LilMissScaleOven/instruments.html
anyway Jeff has made possible to retune Reason's NNXT sampler. I know because I tried it out
and it works.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Cornell III, Howard M"
<howard.m.cornell.iii@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Will LMSO allow a sample player to play a sample at an altered tuning?
> If so, what players [as opposed to synths] does it work on, and which is
> it known not to work on?
>
>