DIY keyboards

I hope I didn't kill this topic somehow. It could be that
DIY has an initial appeal because it sounds like it will
be cheap, but in the final analysis it isn't cheap.
It does of course offer the opportunity to design and
build something yourself. Anyway, discussing this topic
might be a good way to get the H-Pi list off the ground
if anyone is interested:

<http://www.h-pi.com/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=2>

Yours,
Aaron Hunt
H-Pi Instruments

I just would like to say thanks to everyone in this thread, I (and
maybe others too) have been picking up a lot of useful information for
possible future endeavors :)

Chris

On 17/09/2007, Aaron Andrew Hunt <aahunt@...> wrote:
>
> I hope I didn't kill this topic somehow.

Aaron Andrew Hunt wrote:
> I hope I didn't kill this topic somehow. It could be that
> DIY has an initial appeal because it sounds like it will
> be cheap, but in the final analysis it isn't cheap. > It does of course offer the opportunity to design and
> build something yourself. Anyway, discussing this topic
> might be a good way to get the H-Pi list off the ground > if anyone is interested:
>
> <http://www.h-pi.com/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=2>
>
> Yours,
> Aaron Hunt
> H-Pi Instruments
>
>
> No, thread not dead....I'm curious from another angle---how did you start your company?....did you make a prototype, then decide to start the company, or the other way around?..what is your electronics background?

Best,
Aaron.

Hi Aaron.

I'm self-taught in electronics, starting with dry-cell
battery projects in my basement when I was a kid.

I didn't initially plan on starting a company. It was only
after about 7 years of work and adventure, after I had
developed my theories and I was well past the second
prototype Tonal Plexus and also had the first version of
the Tuning Box and Megascore already done, that I
decided to do it. It actually all started as a doctoral
proposal, but that's another story entirely.

Cheers,
Aaron Hunt
H-Pi Instruments

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron K. Johnson" <aaron@...> wrote:
> I'm curious from another angle---how did you
> start your company?....did you make a prototype, then decide to start
> the company, or the other way around?..what is your electronics background?
>
> Best,
> Aaron.
>

At 12:07 PM 9/17/2007, you wrote:
>I hope I didn't kill this topic somehow. It could be that
>DIY has an initial appeal because it sounds like it will
>be cheap, but in the final analysis it isn't cheap.

Like anything else, it really depends. It *can* be cheap.

-Carl

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
> Like anything else, it really depends. It *can* be cheap.

Well, sure. But also like anything else. you get what you pay for.
Quality materials are not cheap, and if you consider your time
valuable, it ain't gonna be cheap. If you get inexpensive stuff
and do a lousy job, you'll produce a useless piece of &^%#$^.

I built the first TP prototype for about $1000 in materials
and it took me almost a year to finish while working full
time. Over 3,000 solder connections by hand. Worth it,
of course, but not easy, and not cheap. It also proved to be
a pretty long way away from what I actually wanted.

This is another problem with DIY, and maybe especially
microtonal DIY. You you really know what you want?
You might think so, and then after you build it you find out
it's not quite right.

Aaron Hunt
H-Pi Instruments

This in also my experience with acoustic instruments. (And what you want in a tuning likewise in such cases means you are going to be stuck with it for years. So one has to go through quite a bit of what it does in all keys and scales, before hand)
One features though is that say an instrument cost you a $1000 dollars and a years work, often one does not have to come up with all the money at once. In the past this has worked out well.

Aaron Andrew Hunt wrote:
>
> -
>
> This is another problem with DIY, and maybe especially
> microtonal DIY. You you really know what you want?
> You might think so, and then after you build it you find out
> it's not quite right.
>
> Aaron Hunt
> H-Pi Instruments
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/index.html>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main/index.asp> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

Ivor Darreg points all this out, and concludes that the best way is to use computers,synths and samplers and try boatloads of tunings before committing any one of them to hardware.

Kraig Grady wrote:
> This in also my experience with acoustic instruments. (And what you want > in a tuning likewise in such cases means you are going to be stuck with > it for years. So one has to go through quite a bit of what it does in > all keys and scales, before hand)
> One features though is that say an instrument cost you a $1000 dollars > and a years work, often one does not have to come up with all the money > at once. In the past this has worked out well.
>
> Aaron Andrew Hunt wrote:
> >> -
>>
>> This is another problem with DIY, and maybe especially
>> microtonal DIY. You you really know what you want?
>> You might think so, and then after you build it you find out
>> it's not quite right.
>>
>> Aaron Hunt
>> H-Pi Instruments
>>
>> >> >
>

Kraig, that's a good point. Even with electronics, the expense
tends to be incremental. Buy these parts, get that working, save
up, plan, buy, build, repeat.

AKJ, also good point. Years ago, I taught myself MAX to make
virtual versions of stuff first. meaning not just designs
but actual functioning MIDI processors. I almost forgot about
that!

Actually, this should probably be the first step after deciding
on your design - do it in software. Thing is, without the physical
object you're still likely not to get quite what you want. But
that's just the way design works. Typically a design will go
through 3 - 5 iterations before it's what you want.

Of course with electronics you can also plan on making something
flexible. I feel this is what I've finally able to acheive with the
4th gen. Tonal Plexus and TPXE retuning software.

Yours,
Aaron Hunt
H-Pi Instruments

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron K. Johnson" <aaron@...> wrote:
>
> Ivor Darreg points all this out, and concludes that the best way is to
> use computers,synths and samplers and try boatloads of tunings before
> committing any one of them to hardware.
>
>
>
> Kraig Grady wrote:
> > This in also my experience with acoustic instruments. (And what you want
> > in a tuning likewise in such cases means you are going to be stuck with
> > it for years. So one has to go through quite a bit of what it does in
> > all keys and scales, before hand)
> > One features though is that say an instrument cost you a $1000 dollars
> > and a years work, often one does not have to come up with all the money
> > at once. In the past this has worked out well.
> >
> > Aaron Andrew Hunt wrote:
> >
> >> -
> >>
> >> This is another problem with DIY, and maybe especially
> >> microtonal DIY. You you really know what you want?
> >> You might think so, and then after you build it you find out
> >> it's not quite right.
> >>
> >> Aaron Hunt
> >> H-Pi Instruments
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>

>> Like anything else, it really depends. It *can* be cheap.
>
>Well, sure. But also like anything else. you get what you pay for.
>Quality materials are not cheap, and if you consider your time
>valuable, it ain't gonna be cheap. If you get inexpensive stuff
>and do a lousy job, you'll produce a useless piece of &^%#$^.

I thought that was a given from my original post on the topic.

>I built the first TP prototype for about $1000 in materials
>and it took me almost a year to finish while working full
>time. Over 3,000 solder connections by hand.

Yeah, with 205/octave (I assume?).

>This is another problem with DIY, and maybe especially
>microtonal DIY. You you really know what you want?
>You might think so, and then after you build it you find out
>it's not quite right.

That's precisely why DIY, *dirt cheap DIY*, is a good idea.
Prototype it on a bread board first.

-Carl

A DIY MIDI keyborad will not be locked to any particular
tuning. In fact, it will make exploring tunings easier
than on the halberstadt.

-Carl

At 07:04 AM 9/18/2007, you wrote:
>Ivor Darreg points all this out, and concludes that the best way is to
>use computers,synths and samplers and try boatloads of tunings before
>committing any one of them to hardware.
>
>Kraig Grady wrote:
>> This in also my experience with acoustic instruments. (And what you want
>> in a tuning likewise in such cases means you are going to be stuck with
>> it for years. So one has to go through quite a bit of what it does in
>> all keys and scales, before hand)
>> One features though is that say an instrument cost you a $1000 dollars
>> and a years work, often one does not have to come up with all the money
>> at once. In the past this has worked out well.

I agree. With an ET it is pretty easy to ascertain what it does and doesn't do. yet even here it can take years before one finally feels what it can be lacking. While 41 is being discussed i remember how in 31 the same interval was used for 11/10 and 10/9 and it bothered me. I couldn't stand the small whole tone anymore. With 41 the same thing happens with 12/11 and 11/10 so only those years with 31 hinted to where my problem would be. If i am interested in a particular set of ratios, they need to at least be unique in size.

but then there are such things as layouts. When i was working with the 22 tone 1-3-7-9-11-15 Eikosany, i ended up with three different layouts over the years. If i would have been presented what i finally ended up with first. I would have rejected it It was only by working with it, did i discover the downfalls of some over the others. Actually now that i have added bars to fill out tho whole Dallesandro tuning i am back to the first.

I guess my point is what one does and uses effects the way you think about it.

Aaron K. Johnson wrote:
>
> Ivor Darreg points all this out, and concludes that the best way is to
> use computers,synths and samplers and try boatloads of tunings before
> committing any one of them to hardware.
>
> Kraig Grady wrote:
> > This in also my experience with acoustic instruments. (And what you > want
> > in a tuning likewise in such cases means you are going to be stuck with
> > it for years. So one has to go through quite a bit of what it does in
> > all keys and scales, before hand)
> > One features though is that say an instrument cost you a $1000 dollars
> > and a years work, often one does not have to come up with all the money
> > at once. In the past this has worked out well.
> >
> > Aaron Andrew Hunt wrote:
> >
> >> -
> >>
> >> This is another problem with DIY, and maybe especially
> >> microtonal DIY. You you really know what you want?
> >> You might think so, and then after you build it you find out
> >> it's not quite right.
> >>
> >> Aaron Hunt
> >> H-Pi Instruments
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/index.html>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main/index.asp> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

I understand and agree!

Carl Lumma wrote:
>
> A DIY MIDI keyborad will not be locked to any particular
> tuning. In fact, it will make exploring tunings easier
> than on the halberstadt.
>
> -Carl
>
> At 07:04 AM 9/18/2007, you wrote:
> >Ivor Darreg points all this out, and concludes that the best way is to
> >use computers,synths and samplers and try boatloads of tunings before
> >committing any one of them to hardware.
> >
> >Kraig Grady wrote:
> >> This in also my experience with acoustic instruments. (And what you > want
> >> in a tuning likewise in such cases means you are going to be stuck > with
> >> it for years. So one has to go through quite a bit of what it does in
> >> all keys and scales, before hand)
> >> One features though is that say an instrument cost you a $1000 dollars
> >> and a years work, often one does not have to come up with all the > money
> >> at once. In the past this has worked out well.
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/index.html>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main/index.asp> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <carl@...> wrote:
> Yeah, with 205/octave (I assume?).

Right.

> >This is another problem with DIY, and maybe especially
> >microtonal DIY. You you really know what you want?
> >You might think so, and then after you build it you find out
> >it's not quite right.
>
> That's precisely why DIY, *dirt cheap DIY*, is a good idea.
> Prototype it on a bread board first.

Well, I don't know about that. It sounds good, but can
you show me a breadboard that allows a whole field of
0.1 spacing to be used? Maybe I just didn't look long
enough to find one flexible enough to do anything
worthwhile for my purposes, but in my experience
breadboards are all too small and too limited. And, the
larger ones (which are what you would need) are not
cheap. Might be OK for trying out one octave with
limitations in component placement, but I'd say even if
you can find one that will work OK (which I doubt), the
time and money you spend on that is probably better
spent making something real.

Yours,
Aaron Hunt
H-Pi Instruments

Here is my debut on the list:

http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/Autumn

You can also check pictures of the Conic bellophone here

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=11323&id=696302104

I have been waiting to edit the video of the performance but since it is
taking too long I decided to place this recording!

Tony Salinas

> http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=11323&id=696302104

Requires people to register to see it.

Rick

the link isn't loading for me

J.A.Martin Salinas wrote:
>
> Here is my debut on the list:
>
> http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/Autumn > <http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/Autumn>
>
> You can also check pictures of the Conic bellophone here
>
> http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=11323&id=696302104 > <http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=11323&id=696302104>
>
> I have been waiting to edit the video of the performance but since it is
> taking too long I decided to place this recording!
>
> Tony Salinas
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/index.html>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main/index.asp> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

It works for me on a mac
but I will send it to you if anybody who may request so
if you can handle 5 MB

I have also changed the link to the pictures since I did not realize
you have to
log in into facebook!

http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/Conic+Bellophone+in+96edo

On 2007/09/19, at 7:13, Kraig Grady wrote:

> the link isn't loading for me
>
> J.A.Martin Salinas wrote:
> >
> > Here is my debut on the list:
> >
> > http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/Autumn
> > <http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/Autumn>
> >
> > You can also check pictures of the Conic bellophone here
> >
> > http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=11323&id=696302104
> > <http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=11323&id=696302104>
> >
> > I have been waiting to edit the video of the performance but
> since it is
> > taking too long I decided to place this recording!
> >
> > Tony Salinas
> >
> >
>
> --
> Kraig Grady
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/
> index.html>
> The Wandering Medicine Show
> KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main/index.asp> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los
> Angeles
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

actually I got it to load!

J.A.Martin Salinas wrote:
>
> It works for me on a mac
> but I will send it to you if anybody who may request so
> if you can handle 5 MB
>
> I have also changed the link to the pictures since I did not realize
> you have to
> log in into facebook!
>
> http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/Conic+Bellophone+in+96edo > <http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/Conic+Bellophone+in+96edo>
>
> On 2007/09/19, at 7:13, Kraig Grady wrote:
>
> > the link isn't loading for me
> >
> > J.A.Martin Salinas wrote:
> > >
> > > Here is my debut on the list:
> > >
> > > http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/Autumn > <http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/Autumn>
> > > <http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/Autumn > <http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/Autumn>>
> > >
> > > You can also check pictures of the Conic bellophone here
> > >
> > > http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=11323&id=696302104 > <http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=11323&id=696302104>
> > > <http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=11323&id=696302104 > <http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=11323&id=696302104>>
> > >
> > > I have been waiting to edit the video of the performance but
> > since it is
> > > taking too long I decided to place this recording!
> > >
> > > Tony Salinas
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > Kraig Grady
> > North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/ > <http://anaphoria.com/>
> > index.html>
> > The Wandering Medicine Show
> > KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main/index.asp > <http://www.kxlu.com/main/index.asp>> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los
> > Angeles
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/index.html>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main/index.asp> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

> I have also changed the link to the pictures since I did not realize
> you have to log in into facebook!
> http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/Conic+Bellophone+in+96edo

Wow, that's quite an instrument!! Thanks for the pictures.

Rick

Tony,
I loved the pictures of the bellophone, but the MP3 has only a few
seconds of the sound of the instrument, and the winds completely
dominate the sound. Can we hear it on it's own?

Prent Rodgers

> Here is my debut on the list:
>
> http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/Autumn
>
> Tony Salinas
>

Hi Prent,

It took me a few days to set this up but the Conic Bellophone demo is now ready:

http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/Conic+Bellophone+Demo

And link to the instruments page at xenharmonic.wikispaces.com

At 08:25 AM 9/24/2007, you wrote:
>Hi Prent,
>
>It took me a few days to set this up but the Conic Bellophone demo is
>now ready:
>
>http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/Conic+Bellophone+Demo
>
>And link to the instruments page at xenharmonic.wikispaces.com

This is an audio file only, apparently?

Funny, when I viewed the source of that page to get the url for
the mov file, I saw the text "google ad section" in the code.
What the heck is up with that?

-Carl

Hi Carl,

It is an audio file indeed. There is a pict of a conic bell
and the file that you click to get it to play on a mac but
not sure what it looks like on PC or other.

Let me know if you cannot hear it and I can mail it to you!

Tony

On 2007/09/25, at 1:17, Carl Lumma wrote:

> At 08:25 AM 9/24/2007, you wrote:
> >Hi Prent,
> >
> >It took me a few days to set this up but the Conic Bellophone demo is
> >now ready:
> >
> >http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/Conic+Bellophone+Demo
> >
> >And link to the instruments page at xenharmonic.wikispaces.com
>
> This is an audio file only, apparently?
>
> Funny, when I viewed the source of that page to get the url for
> the mov file, I saw the text "google ad section" in the code.
> What the heck is up with that?
>
> -Carl
>
>
>

I can hear it, but I don't see a pic. But I'm more curious
about what google ad code is doing on the wiki.

-Carl

At 10:24 AM 9/24/2007, you wrote:
>Hi Carl,
>
>It is an audio file indeed. There is a pict of a conic bell
>and the file that you click to get it to play on a mac but
>not sure what it looks like on PC or other.
>
>Let me know if you cannot hear it and I can mail it to you!
>
>Tony