Lou Harrison, La Monte Young, & John Cage on the New Sounds radio archive

You can listen to all 3 here from the august archive:

http://www.wnyc.org/shows/newsounds/episodes/2007/08

Yes but which musician who takes her/himself, art and fellow human beings seriously, would want to?

Joe <tamahome02000@...> wrote: You can listen to all 3 here from the august archive:

http://www.wnyc.org/shows/newsounds/episodes/2007/08

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I quite like them, but always up for another three. At least they weren't redundant, but if you are speaking of mp3s, i am with you!

JULIAN SILVERMAN wrote:
>
> Yes but which musician who takes her/himself, art and fellow human > beings seriously, would want to?
>
> Joe <tamahome02000@... <mailto:tamahome02000%40yahoo.com>> > wrote: You can listen to all 3 here from the august archive:
>
> http://www.wnyc.org/shows/newsounds/episodes/2007/08 > <http://www.wnyc.org/shows/newsounds/episodes/2007/08>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/index.html>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main/index.asp> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

Hai...

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, JULIAN SILVERMAN
<julian.silverman@...> wrote:
>
> Yes but which musician who takes her/himself, art and fellow human
beings seriously, would want to?

Is this a troll, or should I take it seriously?

Cheers,
Jon

Jon Szanto wrote:

>Hai...
>
>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, JULIAN SILVERMAN
><julian.silverman@...> wrote:
> >
>>Yes but which musician who takes her/himself, art and fellow human
>> >>
>beings seriously, would want to? >
>Is this a troll, or should I take it seriously?
>

Maybe.

--
* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, David Beardsley <db@...> wrote:
> Maybe.

Troublemaker.

Cheers,
Jon

Jon Szanto wrote:

>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, David Beardsley <db@...> wrote:
> >
>>Maybe.
>> >>
>
>Troublemaker.
>

Oh....now "I'm" the troublemaker.

--
* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com

I don't want to stir things up. And I don't want to offend people on
this brave and worthwhile list.

I don't normally write sarcastic remarks without explaining just what I
mean and discussing in a respectful way.

But we were invited to listen to the sounds 'created' by these
'composers'. Surely the point is [leaving aside the relatively harmless
Lou Harrison] that whatever it is that Cage may or may not have
contributed to the idea of music, the one thing he was not concerned
with was what it sounded like: to be actually listening to the music for
the sounds he made or even for their 'meaning' would have run
absolutely counter to the artistic goals he so persistently spent his
life advocating.. (If I confess that I knew him a little, I am not
boasting. And I am not proud of being one of the two who introduced him
to British audiences. On the contrary, I am embarrassed. If it could
have been in the power of one man single-mindedly to destroy the art of
music and human cultural advancement in general that man would have
been John Cage.)

As for Lamonte Young, after you've listened to the first 1000 or so of
his head-bangings (actually piano -bashings) for Henry Flint is there
anything more to say or do? - ever again? Would there anything left of
your brain? It's definitely not for listening to. It's not meant to
be..(And there's nothing to think about either. You don't need your
brain any more - or your senses - or anything that lives ).

There. I've done it again. I haven't argued my case. But these sub- or
super-humans don't accept normal human discourse anyway: -

quite unlike the courteous, good-humoured, serious and consequential
hardworking devoted musicians on this list, who should have nothing to
do with such insidious posturing fakes.

-----Original Message-----
From: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jon Szanto
Sent: 19 August 2007 21:57
To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MMM] Lou Harrison, La Monte Young, & John Cage on the New
Sounds radio arch

--- In MakeMicroMusic@ <mailto:MakeMicroMusic%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com, David Beardsley <db@...> wrote:
> Maybe.

Troublemaker.

Cheers,
Jon

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I didn't think the link would be so 'controversial'. Actually the
Harrison & Young appearances include interviews as well. Btw, Robert
Rich & Markus Reuter have a new myspace page for their forthcoming
album, with some song samples. It's not microtonal, but it's not
standard either (kind of rhythmic/ambient).

http://www.myspace.com/markusreuterrobertrich

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Joe" <tamahome02000@...> wrote:
>
> You can listen to all 3 here from the august archive:
>
> http://www.wnyc.org/shows/newsounds/episodes/2007/08
>

JULIAN SILVERMAN wrote:

>As for Lamonte Young, after you've listened to the first 1000 or so of
>his head-bangings (actually piano -bashings) for Henry Flint is there
>anything more to say or do? - ever again? Would there anything left of
>your brain? It's definitely not for listening to. It's not meant to
>be..(And there's nothing to think about either. You don't need your
>brain any more - or your senses - or anything that lives ). >

Try listening to the Well Tuned Piano.

--
* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com

for the record Harrison had problems with Cage which i will not go into here. but this composer of the Grand Duo for Violin and Piano was anything but harmless. i would keep that for John Adams and his 'repetitive slocky film score' music. both of which he had added nothing to:). Once i heard a piece on the radio that was so bad that i listened till the end just so i would know to avoid the composer at all cost. Dare i say it was a long wait or it seemed so..
As for Henry flint who showed his films here, one was nothing more than the star gate scene from 2001 which he stated he was taking out of context( now isn't that imaginative!). To anyone who ever saw 2001, this section was already 'out of context', a 'short' added to the end. I assume he didn't understand the film in the first place and he got burned messing with a work by a real as opposed to an academic artist. Combining a few cheesy blues licks to fake Indian music that if he wasn't a white person no one would care. I can't tell you how many amplified violins i saw in the 60's.
There possibly isn't any more art, just celebrities. Even the good ones are turned into such fashion:).

but maybe this go back to Gauguin who would show up at openings with a parrot on his shoulder.

JULIAN SILVERMAN wrote:
>
> I don't want to stir things up. And I don't want to offend people on
> this brave and worthwhile list.
>
> I don't normally write sarcastic remarks without explaining just what I
> mean and discussing in a respectful way.
>
> But we were invited to listen to the sounds 'created' by these
> 'composers'. Surely the point is [leaving aside the relatively harmless
> Lou Harrison] that whatever it is that Cage may or may not have
> contributed to the idea of music, the one thing he was not concerned
> with was what it sounded like: to be actually listening to the music for
> the sounds he made or even for their 'meaning' would have run
> absolutely counter to the artistic goals he so persistently spent his
> life advocating.. (If I confess that I knew him a little, I am not
> boasting. And I am not proud of being one of the two who introduced him
> to British audiences. On the contrary, I am embarrassed. If it could
> have been in the power of one man single-mindedly to destroy the art of
> music and human cultural advancement in general that man would have
> been John Cage.)
>
> As for Lamonte Young, after you've listened to the first 1000 or so of
> his head-bangings (actually piano -bashings) for Henry Flint is there
> anything more to say or do? - ever again? Would there anything left of
> your brain? It's definitely not for listening to. It's not meant to
> be..(And there's nothing to think about either. You don't need your
> brain any more - or your senses - or anything that lives ).
>
> There. I've done it again. I haven't argued my case. But these sub- or
> super-humans don't accept normal human discourse anyway: -
>
> quite unlike the courteous, good-humoured, serious and consequential
> hardworking devoted musicians on this list, who should have nothing to
> do with such insidious posturing fakes.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:MakeMicroMusic%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:MakeMicroMusic%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Jon Szanto
> Sent: 19 August 2007 21:57
> To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:MakeMicroMusic%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [MMM] Lou Harrison, La Monte Young, & John Cage on the New
> Sounds radio arch
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@ <mailto:MakeMicroMusic%40yahoogroups.com>
> yahoogroups.com, David Beardsley <db@...> wrote:
> > Maybe.
>
> Troublemaker.
>
> Cheers,
> Jon
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/index.html>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main/index.asp> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

But that would just be a waste of time for one of such refined and discriminating taste.

David Beardsley wrote:
> JULIAN SILVERMAN wrote:
> >> As for Lamonte Young, after you've listened to the first 1000 or so of
>> his head-bangings (actually piano -bashings) for Henry Flint is there
>> anything more to say or do? - ever again? Would there anything left of
>> your brain? It's definitely not for listening to. It's not meant to
>> be..(And there's nothing to think about either. You don't need your
>> brain any more - or your senses - or anything that lives ). >>
> > Try listening to the Well Tuned Piano.
>

i do like that one allot!

David Beardsley wrote:
>
> JULIAN SILVERMAN wrote:
>
> >As for Lamonte Young, after you've listened to the first 1000 or so of
> >his head-bangings (actually piano -bashings) for Henry Flint is there
> >anything more to say or do? - ever again? Would there anything left of
> >your brain? It's definitely not for listening to. It's not meant to
> >be..(And there's nothing to think about either. You don't need your
> >brain any more - or your senses - or anything that lives ).
> >
>
> Try listening to the Well Tuned Piano.
>
> -- > * David Beardsley
> * microtonal guitar
> * http://biink.com <http://biink.com>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/index.html>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main/index.asp> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "JULIAN SILVERMAN"
<julian.silverman@...> wrote:
> But we were invited to listen to the sounds 'created' by these
> 'composers'.

Ding! We have a winner! Whoever shouted out, in the near-vacant room,
"troll" can now take home the prize. To the other troublemakers, we
have some lovely parting gifts. Johnny Olsen, tell them what they've
won...

(No one with any musical credibility should give this guy a pass.)

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, David Beardsley <db@...> wrote:
> Oh....now "I'm" the troublemaker.

No, it is just you aren't "the" troublemaker. ;)

Cheers,
Jon

Oh dear! We all thought we were joining a discussion forum with scope
for a free-ranging exchange of ideas and observations. But Jon thinks
otherwise. He does not seem to feel any need to defend Cage and the
others, for him it is a question of discipline: we must all submit to
their authority (an authority they do not even claim for themselves) as
an act of unquestioning faith. Otherwise no passes! You are a "troll"
and/or a "troublemaker".

Actually if there is one thing you've got to admire Cage for, it is his
willingness to be both of these: i.e. to inspire in us doubt and
dissatisfaction about aesthetic purposes which we had not sufficiently
questioned.

By the way, I will try to get to hear the Young and Harrison pieces
which people have suggested. I was making a rash judgement with little
knowledge of the work of either

-----Original Message-----
From: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jon Szanto
Sent: 20 August 2007 06:17
To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MMM] Lou Harrison, La Monte Young, & John Cage on the New
Sounds radio arch

--- In MakeMicroMusic@ <mailto:MakeMicroMusic%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com, "JULIAN SILVERMAN"
<julian.silverman@...> wrote:
> But we were invited to listen to the sounds 'created' by these
> 'composers'.

Ding! We have a winner! Whoever shouted out, in the near-vacant room,
"troll" can now take home the prize. To the other troublemakers, we
have some lovely parting gifts. Johnny Olsen, tell them what they've
won...

(No one with any musical credibility should give this guy a pass.)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

JULIAN SILVERMAN wrote:

>Actually if there is one thing you've got to admire Cage for, it is his
>willingness to be both of these: i.e. to inspire in us doubt and
>dissatisfaction about aesthetic purposes which we had not sufficiently
>questioned.
>

I always liked any of his music for prepared piano.

--
* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com

Yes Cage could write music as many of his early pieces testify to. Sometimes i wonder how much of his chance pieces were chance, or as much as he said. It seems many do not get the same results with the same processes. Perhaps he took a lead from Duchamp who played with many by attributing his work all being based on his attraction to his sister. Probably mocking the Freudians of his time. Others have pointed out other things going on.
Cage was not one to shy from hard work which is what separates him much from his imitators.

David Beardsley wrote:
>
> JULIAN SILVERMAN wrote:
>
> >Actually if there is one thing you've got to admire Cage for, it is his
> >willingness to be both of these: i.e. to inspire in us doubt and
> >dissatisfaction about aesthetic purposes which we had not sufficiently
> >questioned.
> >
>
> I always liked any of his music for prepared piano.
>
> -- > * David Beardsley
> * microtonal guitar
> * http://biink.com <http://biink.com>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/index.html>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main/index.asp> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

Hey Julian,

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "JULIAN SILVERMAN"
<julian.silverman@...> wrote:
> I was making a rash judgement with little
> knowledge of the work of either

Well, you see, that is the part that came through loud and clear, and
expressed in such an erudite and compelling manners: scare quotes
around the word composer.

When you've listened, not to a couple works, but a broad survey of a
good portion of their musics, then we'll have a real nice discussion.
Until you do, there is hardly need to "defend" any of these three. In
fact, there isn't a need to defend them at all.

Cheers,
Jon

But if you're going to the trouble of posting to this list, then why
not try to say something? Tell us what you think is good about these
composers. Some members of this list have. I have given my opinion, or a
little part of it, and explained why I feel what I feel to some extent.
Can't you do us that favour too? Or are you treating us on this list
like Cage treated his public?

Yes. I too like(d) some of his early prepared piano music, and also e.g.
his string quartet. What an inspired idea to make the whole piece up
from prepared and poignant snippets put into a pattern, like a French
Baroque ".en rondeau", only more so! The same with 'Sonatas and
Interludes'. At that time he discovered something true about the way
music works. But only one thing. Once he'd got that idea - that It was
the pattern that made the music, he could do no other than follow this
insight through to the end - a pattern - OK, but why only of notes? Why
not of actions? (cf some of Cornelius Cardew's things) Why have a
pattern at all? And these were no academic questions for Cage. He was
impelled to actually do them and be somebody, and his grasp of music was
insufficient to develop anything deeper. [Of course the actual
deliberately meaningless jumble of arbitrary sounds could sound quite
exciting for a half a minute or so - so long as enough of them were
going on together: like in 'hpschd' etc.]

Stage-by-stage he gradually and at first unconsciously developed from
young charming naivity to middle-aged pretentiousness and by the end, to
downright deliberate charlatanism. How do I know this? If you want I
will give plenty of examples but you probably know enough of them not to
mind being duped. Of course I don't really know how much he knew what a
fake he had become. I'm just guessing. But why don't you tell us what
you think?

Have you tried listening to Cage's '4'33"' or Young's '1053 (or however
many) for Henry Flint'? Did you enjoy the experience? As for Harrison,
pieces I hsve heard show that he could actually compose - put notes
together that made sense - I haven't heard a lot of his music. Please
tell me about it. What would you recommend? So far I haven't yet heard
anything beyond the routine, but please defend him if you do like his
work. Why hold back?

-----Original Message-----
From: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jon Szanto
Sent: 20 August 2007 21:48
To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MMM] Lou Harrison, La Monte Young, & John Cage on the New
Sounds radio arch

Hey Julian,

--- In MakeMicroMusic@ <mailto:MakeMicroMusic%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com, "JULIAN SILVERMAN"
<julian.silverman@...> wrote:
> I was making a rash judgement with little
> knowledge of the work of either

Well, you see, that is the part that came through loud and clear, and
expressed in such an erudite and compelling manners: scare quotes
around the word composer.

When you've listened, not to a couple works, but a broad survey of a
good portion of their musics, then we'll have a real nice discussion.
Until you do, there is hardly need to "defend" any of these three. In
fact, there isn't a need to defend them at all.

Cheers,
Jon

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Julian,

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "JULIAN SILVERMAN"
<julian.silverman@...> wrote:
>
> But if you're going to the trouble of posting to this list, then why
> not try to say something?

Oh, it was no trouble at all, believe me.

> Tell us what you think is good about these composers.

I think each, in his own way, created a unique body of work, Young
possibly more homogeneous than the other two, but as unlike other
composers as one can be. Of the three, Cage is the odd bird in this
discussion, if only for the fact that both Young and Harrison were so
very much devoted to non-12-tet musics.

But that, already, is more than needed to be said.

> Or are you treating us on this list
> like Cage treated his public?

I guess I can forgive you that remark, but just so you know: as of
yesterday, this list is six years and one month old. And I happen to
be the guy that started it, along with two of my colleagues. I know
the populace of the list pretty darn well, having watched it grow over
the last half+ decade.

So it isn't so much that I feel a need to defend these three
composers, whom I know pretty well, but to make a call on someone who
is disparaging their output without, in at least one or more case,
being familiar with the breadth of their catalog.

> Stage-by-stage he gradually and at first unconsciously developed from
> young charming naivity to middle-aged pretentiousness and by the end, to
> downright deliberate charlatanism.

Aha. "Deliberate charlatanism". Pretty strong words. I happen to be
closely associated with a rather prominent microtonal composer who
himself had a very, very disdainful view of Mr. Cage, so it isn't an
unheard-of viewpoint. But I suspect a very surface understanding of
Cage is at work here, as well as a somewhat circumspect definition of
"music".

> Have you tried listening to Cage's '4'33"'...

I've "performed" it on a couple of concerts, in conjunction with other
Cage pieces (and on one concert, the Cage/Harrison "Double Music"). So
you could say I'm familiar with it. And I also believe in conceptual
art, while there a lot of people think that unless is isn't a painting
in a frame on a wall it probably isn't art. Especially if it doesn't
look good over their sofa.

> As for Harrison,
> pieces I have heard show that he could actually compose - put notes
> together that made sense - I haven't heard a lot of his music.

Pretty bold to diss it in the OP then. But nvm.

> What would you recommend?

Oh, geez, there are a good number of lovely pieces. I'm pressed for
time at the moment, but I promise to make a very short list of my
favorites and even see if there are some online resources to listen,
and get back to you on the list. I really, really liked Lou's music,
and had a number of occasions to visit with him and talk about music
and life. There are a few people on the list, if somewhat
peripherally, that knew him even better (Bill Alves comes to mind),
and he *certainly* was a great friend of those interested in
microtonality. And a good composer, too, not just a sweet guy. :)

> So far I haven't yet heard anything beyond the routine,
> but please defend him if you do like his
> work. Why hold back?

Once again, I don't think artist like this need a "defense". Either
their work speaks to you, or it doesn't, but nothing I'm going to say
is going to make a piece "better". Besides, I have no idea what your
idea of "routine" is, or how being not-routine would work for you. My
guess is that you'd like it to be different, but not *too* different,
and that ties back into your use of the term music.

Tell you what: the best way would be for anyone else who finds worth
and inspiration in the works of these three to simply post suggestions
of pieces they find most compelling, and then you can go exploring on
your own.

Cheers,
Jon

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <jszanto@...> wrote:
>

> ....
> Tell you what: the best way would be for anyone else who finds worth
> and inspiration in the works of these three to simply post suggestions
> of pieces they find most compelling, and then you can go exploring on
> your own.
>

I'd recommend The Barton Workshop Plays John Cage. I've got no idea
if it will win over Julian but it sure is great music.

For lou harrison i would
recommend
Grand duo for Violin and piano
Canticle #3
Double concerto for violin and cello
Philemon and Baukis
Bubaran robert
ode to pacifica ( the last 3 on Lou harrison Gamelan music Music masters classics 01612-67091-2
and i like the concerto for piano and gamelan. which others might dispute but i find the piano writing one of the most original approaches to the instrument even if it is quite subtlely so.

music for guitar and percussion. Bridge records. Still my favorite stuff done by John Schnieder and has what Lou called the definitive recording of Canticle #3 led by John Bergamo

For cage
just about all his earlier piano music even before the prepared stuff
Quartet in 4 parts (string Quartet)
some of the later number pieces
Quartets I-VIII settings of mainly Willian Billings pieces. too tonal for some by innovative

plopper6 wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:MakeMicroMusic%40yahoogroups.com>, "Jon Szanto" <jszanto@...> > wrote:
> >
>
> > ....
> > Tell you what: the best way would be for anyone else who finds worth
> > and inspiration in the works of these three to simply post suggestions
> > of pieces they find most compelling, and then you can go exploring on
> > your own.
> >
>
> I'd recommend The Barton Workshop Plays John Cage. I've got no idea
> if it will win over Julian but it sure is great music.
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/index.html>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main/index.asp> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

Still there is a point i would like to put forth. That works are more important than composers. The celebrity game i thing in the long run promotes a lot of weaker pieces while excluding/censoring others. Still we can't ignore the fact that some produce more great ones than others. But i think woe are losing allot that moves music forward

>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/index.html>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main/index.asp> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles