Prelude in 11ET

New piece written over the past 2 days, uploaded here:

http://www.h-pi.com/downloads.html

Prelude in 11ET, my first piece in this tuning, uses octatonic scales (similar to the 13ET prelude) and lots of invertible counterpoint. It's the longest piece so far that I've written in a tuning other than 12, clocking in at almost 5 minutes, which may be ironic considering that 11ET is not often considered a tuning one wants to hear a lot of, but I like it. Versions are uploaded for piano, harp, and harpsichord. [Note: beware that depending on your synthesizer, the harp version might occasionally have bending sounds in the reverb.]

Thanks to everyone for the feedback on the Prelude in 13ET; I agree that that one is probably the most successful thus far next to the 17ET invention.

Yours,
Aaron Hunt
H-Pi Instruments

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Andrew Hunt <aahunt@...>
wrote:
>
> New piece written over the past 2 days, uploaded here:
>
> http://www.h-pi.com/downloads.html
>
> Prelude in 11ET, my first piece in this tuning,

Thank you for sharing this impressive piece in a difficult tuning. I'm
impressed whenever anyone gets something musical out of 11. I also
enjoyed your pieces in 13 and can't remember if I commented on them
previously. I spent a little time browsing around your website. If you
would care to contact me off list, I have a couple questions.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "daniel_anthony_stearns"
<daniel_anthony_stearns@...> wrote:
>
> yes,i liked this and the recent 13piece as well...kind of two sides
> of the ill-tempered clavier i guess!maybe we should start a web
page
> featuring these two difficult tunings as there's been a slew of
> pieces in them recently?
> i have a couple older pieces in these tunings up at
> http://zebox.com/danstearns_2/:
>
> http://zebox.com/cgi-bin/artists/dl.cgi?danstearns_2_-
_11edo.m3u+qp+m4
> http://zebox.com/cgi-bin/artists/dl.cgi?danstearns_2_-
_scherzo_in_13-
> edo.m3u+qp+m4
>
>
> Truth is, i've never had a hrad time with these two.....8edo, never
> had much luck there .
>
> daniel

I think it would be really cool to have some sort of web page devoted
to 11 and 13. I find it to be very educational to study these tunings
that differ so much from normal 12. Since they add up to 24, it would
also be possible to have a 2 piano concert dedicated to them. I
wonder if anyone has tried mixing them into a 24 note tuning. I have
tried them mixed with other temperaments, but never by themselves.

I found your pieces to be intense and interesting. I will have to
listen to them more in an effort to understand them better.

I took an immediate liking to 13, but have always had problems with
11. Has anyone else had this or the opposite experience?

I've been thinking while typing. We really should start a page or
site. Perhaps we could start a wiki or add it to one of the existing
microtonal wiki. It would also be pretty easy to start a blog with
multiple authors. I would be willing to start one if there is enough
support for the idea.

Thanks, Dan. Yes, I found your response to the piece in 13; sorry I never replied to any
responses for that piece, because after I wrote it and posted the message, my teaching job
kept me too busy so I didn't visit the lists until just recently. I'm done teaching now and
am doing H-Pi full time - I also sent you an email off-list about the H-Pi stuff.

Yours,
Aaron Hunt
H-Pi Instruments

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel Thompson" <microtonaldan@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Andrew Hunt <aahunt@>
> wrote:
> >
> > New piece written over the past 2 days, uploaded here:
> >
> > http://www.h-pi.com/downloads.html
> >
> > Prelude in 11ET, my first piece in this tuning,
>
> Thank you for sharing this impressive piece in a difficult tuning. I'm
> impressed whenever anyone gets something musical out of 11. I also
> enjoyed your pieces in 13 and can't remember if I commented on them
> previously. I spent a little time browsing around your website. If you
> would care to contact me off list, I have a couple questions.
>

Nice work...a bit relentless for me at times, but the counterpoint is interesting in a neo-Bach way, the 11-edo works with it, which is a feat in iteself.

Perhaps I would like a more expressive performance, because the time is absolutely uninteresting and rigid. And a bit slower would be good, too.

-A.

Aaron Andrew Hunt wrote:
> New piece written over the past 2 days, uploaded here:
>
> http://www.h-pi.com/downloads.html
>
> Prelude in 11ET, my first piece in this tuning, uses octatonic scales > (similar to the 13ET prelude) and lots of invertible counterpoint. It's > the longest piece so far that I've written in a tuning other than 12, > clocking in at almost 5 minutes, which may be ironic considering that > 11ET is not often considered a tuning one wants to hear a lot of, but I > like it. Versions are uploaded for piano, harp, and harpsichord. [Note: > beware that depending on your synthesizer, the harp version might > occasionally have bending sounds in the reverb.]
>
> Thanks to everyone for the feedback on the Prelude in 13ET; I agree > that that one is probably the most successful thus far next to the 17ET > invention.
>
> Yours,
> Aaron Hunt
> H-Pi Instruments
>
>
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

Daniel Thompson wrote:
> I think it would be really cool to have some sort of web page devoted > to 11 and 13. I find it to be very educational to study these tunings > that differ so much from normal 12. Since they add up to 24, it would > also be possible to have a 2 piano concert dedicated to them. I > wonder if anyone has tried mixing them into a 24 note tuning. I have > tried them mixed with other temperaments, but never by themselves. > I have a table of intervals in mixed tuning of 11edo and 13edo on my desk for couple of months, some ideas, but no time to work on it.
Maybe in the summer...
Milan

--
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.6.5/792 - Release Date: 06/05/07 21:01

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, aum <aum@...> wrote:
>
> Daniel Thompson wrote:
> > I think it would be really cool to have some sort of web page devoted
> > to 11 and 13. I find it to be very educational to study these tunings
> > that differ so much from normal 12. Since they add up to 24, it would
> > also be possible to have a 2 piano concert dedicated to them. I
> > wonder if anyone has tried mixing them into a 24 note tuning. I have
> > tried them mixed with other temperaments, but never by themselves.
> >
> I have a table of intervals in mixed tuning of 11edo and 13edo on my
> desk for couple of months, some ideas, but no time to work on it.
> Maybe in the summer...
> Milan

Worth mentioning are William Schottstaedt's Dinosaur Music CD which
combines 13 and 48 equal (does anyone have this one?) and a track from
Warren Burt's Harmonic Colour Fields CD which uses the the pairs of
notes from 11 and 13 which are closest to one another (droney stuff).

If one were to tune a piano to 11+13, you would only need 23 notes if
they shared a note ('tonic'), but what the heck would it be like to
play a 13 equal piece using 12 notes on 1 piano and just 1 note on the
other? Not ideal, says I. Then there's the piano timbre which is just
fighting with you all the way.

Today during 31-tone singin' camp, the Apental piano came up (give it
a 'goog' if you haven't, quite fascinating) and the idea of having a
piano where the action can move the full length of the strings...I
imagine striking the strings to cancel the 3rd harmonic could be
useful for 11 and 13. But really, you're better off building a
xylophone or tubulon(g). See the page on Buzz Kimball's Thirteen tone
ensemble <http://www.nonoctave.com/heroes/buzz/thirteen.html> Other
instruments? The bottle/udderbot surely presents ripe possibilities,
and of course Skip LaPlante's classic (I assume) theme and variations
in 13, for homemade instruments...

But I digress. I do think a place should be made for thorough
discussion of all tuning systems of interest to multiple people. A
wiki page could be made ASAP for all the equal divisions at least up
through 24...and go from there.

Daniel Thompson wrote:

> I took an immediate liking to 13, but have always had problems with > 11. Has anyone else had this or the opposite experience?
> > I've been thinking while typing. We really should start a page or > site. Perhaps we could start a wiki or add it to one of the existing > microtonal wiki. It would also be pretty easy to start a blog with > multiple authors. I would be willing to start one if there is enough > support for the idea. I don't know if 11 is really much more difficult than 13, but it took me a couple of tries to get the hang of 11, and I haven't finished anything in 11-ET. Now that I've had more experience with various alternative tunings it might be interesting to go back and see what I can do now with 11 and 13.

You can hear the Apental piano here:

http://www.apentalpiano.co.uk/hear.html

Personally I am unconvinced that it is an improvement over the ordinary piano. I find the timbre too dull, too muted.

/ Magnus

On Thu, 17 May 2007, Jacob wrote:

> Today during 31-tone singin' camp, the Apental piano came up (give it a > 'goog' if you haven't, quite fascinating) and the idea of having a piano > where the action can move the full length of the strings...I imagine > striking the strings to cancel the 3rd harmonic could be useful for 11 > and 13. But really, you're better off building a xylophone or > tubulon(g). See the page on Buzz Kimball's Thirteen tone ensemble > <http://www.nonoctave.com/heroes/buzz/thirteen.html> Other instruments? > The bottle/udderbot surely presents ripe possibilities, and of course > Skip LaPlante's classic (I assume) theme and variations in 13, for > homemade instruments...
>
> But I digress. I do think a place should be made for thorough
> discussion of all tuning systems of interest to multiple people. A
> wiki page could be made ASAP for all the equal divisions at least up
> through 24...and go from there.
>
>

On 5/16/07, Magnus Jonsson <magnus@...> wrote:

> Personally I am unconvinced that it is an improvement over the ordinary
> piano. I find the timbre too dull, too muted.

I rather like the bell-like quality of the lower register, but I don't
think it's most profitable to think of it as a piano, the sounds are
too different.

I would prefer the idea of an achromatic but full-timbred piano. Add
that to my "when I'm rich" list.

--Tristan
http://dolor-sit-amet.deviantart.com

At 08:55 PM 5/16/2007, you wrote:
>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, aum <aum@...> wrote:
>>
>> Daniel Thompson wrote:
>> > I think it would be really cool to have some sort of web page devoted
>> > to 11 and 13. I find it to be very educational to study these tunings
>> > that differ so much from normal 12. Since they add up to 24, it would
>> > also be possible to have a 2 piano concert dedicated to them. I
>> > wonder if anyone has tried mixing them into a 24 note tuning. I have
>> > tried them mixed with other temperaments, but never by themselves.
>> >
>> I have a table of intervals in mixed tuning of 11edo and 13edo on my
>> desk for couple of months, some ideas, but no time to work on it.
>> Maybe in the summer...
>> Milan
>
>Worth mentioning are William Schottstaedt's Dinosaur Music CD which
>combines 13 and 48 equal (does anyone have this one?)

I have it.

>Today during 31-tone singin' camp, the Apental piano came up (give it
>a 'goog' if you haven't, quite fascinating)

I also have that disc.

-Carl

I wouldn't call it improved, but it is different and IMO
very enjoyable. If you haven't got experience listening
to fortepianos (which sound similar), you might be put
off at first.

-Carl

At 10:04 PM 5/16/2007, you wrote:
>You can hear the Apental piano here:
>
>http://www.apentalpiano.co.uk/hear.html
>
>Personally I am unconvinced that it is an improvement over the ordinary
>piano. I find the timbre too dull, too muted.
>
>/ Magnus
>
>On Thu, 17 May 2007, Jacob wrote:
>
>> Today during 31-tone singin' camp, the Apental piano came up (give it a
>> 'goog' if you haven't, quite fascinating) and the idea of having a piano
>> where the action can move the full length of the strings...I imagine
>> striking the strings to cancel the 3rd harmonic could be useful for 11
>> and 13. But really, you're better off building a xylophone or
>> tubulon(g). See the page on Buzz Kimball's Thirteen tone ensemble
>> <http://www.nonoctave.com/heroes/buzz/thirteen.html> Other instruments?
>> The bottle/udderbot surely presents ripe possibilities, and of course
>> Skip LaPlante's classic (I assume) theme and variations in 13, for
>> homemade instruments...
>>
>> But I digress. I do think a place should be made for thorough
>> discussion of all tuning systems of interest to multiple people. A
>> wiki page could be made ASAP for all the equal divisions at least up
>> through 24...and go from there.

The treble sounds real ticky, kind of like Watson's Zumpe
http://piano300.si.edu/lboothmp3.htm

Putting the action and string frame in different planes,
(like a dolceola http://www.minermusic.com/dolceola/dolceola.htm)
would make it much easier repositioning striking points, but the
change from the node probably won't make the only difference.
There might be other ways of doing it too.

Clark

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma wrote:
>
> I wouldn't call it improved, but it is different and IMO
> very enjoyable. If you haven't got experience listening
> to fortepianos (which sound similar), you might be put
> off at first.
>
>
> At 10:04 PM 5/16/2007, Magnus wrote:
> >You can hear the Apental piano here:
> >
> >http://www.apentalpiano.co.uk/hear.html
> >
> >Personally I am unconvinced that it is an improvement over
> > the ordinary piano. I find the timbre too dull, too muted.
> >
> >
> >On Thu, 17 May 2007, Jacob wrote:
>>> the idea of having a piano where the action can move the
>>> full length of the strings...I imagine striking the strings
>>> to cancel the 3rd harmonic could be useful for 11 and 13...

The website isn't particularly clear, but the strike points
are only 5th-harmonic-killing in the bass. But there are
other innovations in the design, which the liner notes only
hint at. The guy apparently doesn't have e-mail... I was
going to write him to ask him about it, but never did. -C.

At 07:21 AM 5/17/2007, you wrote:
>The treble sounds real ticky, kind of like Watson's Zumpe
>http://piano300.si.edu/lboothmp3.htm
>
>Putting the action and string frame in different planes,
>(like a dolceola http://www.minermusic.com/dolceola/dolceola.htm)
>would make it much easier repositioning striking points, but the
>change from the node probably won't make the only difference.
>There might be other ways of doing it too.
>
>Clark
>
>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma wrote:
>>
>> I wouldn't call it improved, but it is different and IMO
>> very enjoyable. If you haven't got experience listening
>> to fortepianos (which sound similar), you might be put
>> off at first.
>>
>>
>> At 10:04 PM 5/16/2007, Magnus wrote:
>> >You can hear the Apental piano here:
>> >
>> >http://www.apentalpiano.co.uk/hear.html
>> >
>> >Personally I am unconvinced that it is an improvement over
>> > the ordinary piano. I find the timbre too dull, too muted.
>> >
>> >
>> >On Thu, 17 May 2007, Jacob wrote:
>>>> the idea of having a piano where the action can move the
>>>> full length of the strings...I imagine striking the strings
>>>> to cancel the 3rd harmonic could be useful for 11 and 13...
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

I would like to hear some slower music in 11 and 13.
Ivor Derreg did a slow lullaby in 13

Carl Lumma wrote:
>
> At 08:55 PM 5/16/2007, you wrote:
> >--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:MakeMicroMusic%40yahoogroups.com>, aum <aum@...> wrote:
> >>
> >> Daniel Thompson wrote:
> >> > I think it would be really cool to have some sort of web page > devoted
> >> > to 11 and 13. I find it to be very educational to study these > tunings
> >> > that differ so much from normal 12. Since they add up to 24, it > would
> >> > also be possible to have a 2 piano concert dedicated to them. I
> >> > wonder if anyone has tried mixing them into a 24 note tuning. I have
> >> > tried them mixed with other temperaments, but never by themselves.
> >> >
> >> I have a table of intervals in mixed tuning of 11edo and 13edo on my
> >> desk for couple of months, some ideas, but no time to work on it.
> >> Maybe in the summer...
> >> Milan
> >
> >Worth mentioning are William Schottstaedt's Dinosaur Music CD which
> >combines 13 and 48 equal (does anyone have this one?)
>
> I have it.
>
> >Today during 31-tone singin' camp, the Apental piano came up (give it
> >a 'goog' if you haven't, quite fascinating)
>
> I also have that disc.
>
> -Carl
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/index.html>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main/index.asp> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>
wrote:
>
> I would like to hear some slower music in 11 and 13.
> Ivor Derreg did a slow lullaby in 13

I have a "Slow Dance" in 13
<http://www.microtonalmusic.net/audio/slowdance13edo.mp3>

Does anybody know if Ivor Derreg's lullaby is available online? I would
love to hear it.

what the heck would it be like to
> play a 13 equal piece using 12 notes on 1 piano and just 1 note on the
> other? Not ideal, says I.

Far from ideal, but potentially humorous!

> But I digress. I do think a place should be made for thorough
> discussion of all tuning systems of interest to multiple people. A
> wiki page could be made ASAP for all the equal divisions at least up
> through 24...and go from there.

Well, I browsed through the xenharmonic wiki pages and discovered a
scales page with the invitation to add scales. I don't want to be
presumptuous, but I went ahead and made a page for equal temperaments
and subpages for 11 and 13. If anybody wants it arranged differently,
that can be discussed, or you can just change it yourself. I added a
composition to the the 13 page and they are just waiting there for new
compositions or articles to be added.

Here is the link for the equal temperaments page.
<http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/Equal+Temperaments>

I would imagine Brian McLaren would have this or reconstructed it.
Brian also i know has done work in this tuning.
in fact i believe he has written music in every ET up into the200+ range.
Many of the these are striking!
Daniel Thompson wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:MakeMicroMusic%40yahoogroups.com>, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > I would like to hear some slower music in 11 and 13.
> > Ivor Derreg did a slow lullaby in 13
>
> I have a "Slow Dance" in 13
> <http://www.microtonalmusic.net/audio/slowdance13edo.mp3 > <http://www.microtonalmusic.net/audio/slowdance13edo.mp3>>
>
> Does anybody know if Ivor Derreg's lullaby is available online? I would
> love to hear it.
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/index.html>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main/index.asp> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

> But I digress. I do think a place should be made for thorough
> discussion of all tuning systems of interest to multiple people. A
> wiki page could be made ASAP for all the equal divisions at least up
> through 24...and go from there.
>
I agree. It'd be nice to have a discussion space dedicated to EDOs
IMHO, since that's my primary (if not exclusive) field of interest.
Couldn't tell ya why, but for some reason talk of JI,
well-temperaments, and linear/non-linear microtemperaments just don't
interest me. Nor does talk of EDOs of impractically-many notes (say
upwards of 36) or even subsets of those higher-cardinality EDOs. I'd
be happy to contribute to a wiki page, if you ever get around to
approving my membership request on xenharmonic.wikispaces (wink wink,
nudge nudge), as I've spent inordinate amounts of free time examining
alternate tonalities common among EDOs 9 through 27.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Igliashon Jones"
<igliashon@...> wrote:
> I'd
> be happy to contribute to a wiki page, if you ever get around to
> approving my membership request on xenharmonic.wikispaces (wink wink,
> nudge nudge), as I've spent inordinate amounts of free time examining
> alternate tonalities common among EDOs 9 through 27.

Oh, you've been approved for week(s) now. Edit away!

In fact, we should schedule an editfest, i.e. a weekend of rabid
editing of the wiki by multiple people, i.e. a temporary asynchronous
zone. How about next weekend - 25th through 27th? A nice bookend to
MMMMonth?

> Truth is, i've never had a hrad time with these two.....8edo, never
> had much luck there .
>
> daniel

Feel you on the 8-edo. That one's a heckofa challenge. Can't get it
to sound "nice" no matter what I do, probably because its most
consonant intervals are 300, 450, 750, and 900 cents. Maybe it just
needs some Ligon/Sethares timbral restructuring?

On a weird side-note, I've been studying the tempered "5-limit"
lattices of some alternate MOS tonalities among EDOs of cardinality 27
or less (I use 5-limit in quotes because I use these lattices more to
represent arbitrary "tempered" triads than specifically 5-limit-esque
triads), and I've noticed that 8-note MOS scales on average produce
proportionally-fewer numbers of consistent "root-third-fifth-esque"
triads than 6-, 7-, or 9-note scales. For instance, there are at
least two 7-note MOS scales in which all but one note of the scale can
be used as the tonic of a root-third-fifth-esque triad, but no 8-note
scales with this property. The 8-note scale with the highest
note:available tonic ratio is the LLLLLLLs scale, with 8 notes:5
tonics. This changes, however, if the "consonant triad type" is
altered from something resembling root-third-fifth to something
resembling root-second-third. That really opens up the 8-note scales.

But I wonder: is there some kind of relation between the fact that
8-EDO is so dissonant and the fact that 8-note scales aren't very
well-suited to root-third-fifth triad-based tonalities?

-Igs

Igliashon Jones wrote:

> But I wonder: is there some kind of relation between the fact that
> 8-EDO is so dissonant and the fact that 8-note scales aren't very
> well-suited to root-third-fifth triad-based tonalities?

Absolutely! Good equal temperaments are likely to lead to good *unequal* temperaments. That's why my rank 2 search works with equal temperaments. An MOS is a special case of a rank 2 temperament.

The logic is that the closer an EDO is to JI, the less out of shape you have to pull it to improve the relationship. It works at all sizes: as 31 is a good ET so there are microtemperaments with 31 notes to the octave, and so on.

The best single-digit 5-limit ETs are 3, 5 and 7, with 7 as the best of all (with my arbitrary measure). So you'd expect lots of 7 note scales, fewer 3 or 5 note scales, and fewer still of everything else.

Graham

> Oh, you've been approved for week(s) now. Edit away!

Zounds! Well, I guess the notification must have gotten lost in the
mail ;-) I'll hop right to it!

> In fact, we should schedule an editfest, i.e. a weekend of rabid
> editing of the wiki by multiple people, i.e. a temporary asynchronous
> zone. How about next weekend - 25th through 27th? A nice bookend to
> MMMMonth?

Sounds good!

-Igs

Igliashon Jones wrote:
>> Truth is, i've never had a hrad time with these two.....8edo, never >> had much luck there .
>>
>> daniel
> > Feel you on the 8-edo. That one's a heckofa challenge. Can't get it
> to sound "nice" no matter what I do, probably because its most
> consonant intervals are 300, 450, 750, and 900 cents. Maybe it just
> needs some Ligon/Sethares timbral restructuring?

Careful selection of timbres does make a difference.

http://www.io.com/~hmiller/midi/canon8.mid (Ugh!)
http://www.io.com/~hmiller/midi/canon8-alt.mid (Kind of cool!)

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Igliashon Jones"
<igliashon@...> wrote:

> Nor does talk of EDOs of impractically-many notes (say
> upwards of 36) or even subsets of those higher-cardinality EDOs.

There's nothing impractical about more than 36 notes to the octave so
long as you use electronic means.

> I'd
> be happy to contribute to a wiki page, if you ever get around to
> approving my membership request on xenharmonic.wikispaces (wink wink,
> nudge nudge), as I've spent inordinate amounts of free time examining
> alternate tonalities common among EDOs 9 through 27.

27 is an interesting division but a funny place to stop. You've never
experimented with 31 or 34?

How do we access xenharmonic.wikispaces?

> The best single-digit 5-limit ETs are 3, 5 and 7, with 7 as
> the best of all (with my arbitrary measure). So you'd
> expect lots of 7 note scales, fewer 3 or 5 note scales, and
> fewer still of everything else.

When it comes to generating ets, relative error is much more important than absolute error, and weighting the relative error, as for instance by a log flat measure, makes sense also. From that point of view 3-et is arguably the "best", though it excludes meantone and in general points you towards high-error, low complexity systems.

The following temperaments arise from 3, 5, 7 and 12:

3&5: 16/15
3&7: 25/24
3&12: 128/125
5&7: 81/80
5&12: 81/80
7&12: 81/80

As for "best", here are some relevant integer sequences:

http://www.research.att.com/~njas/sequences/A117554
http://www.research.att.com/~njas/sequences/A054540

"Pepper ambiguity" decreases exactly as percentage error decreases.

and Partch used 43 with his acoustic instruments

Gene Ward Smith wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:MakeMicroMusic%40yahoogroups.com>, "Igliashon Jones"
> <igliashon@...> wrote:
>
> > Nor does talk of EDOs of impractically-many notes (say
> > upwards of 36) or even subsets of those higher-cardinality EDOs.
>
> There's nothing impractical about more than 36 notes to the octave so
> long as you use electronic means.
>
> > I'd
> > be happy to contribute to a wiki page, if you ever get around to
> > approving my membership request on xenharmonic.wikispaces (wink wink,
> > nudge nudge), as I've spent inordinate amounts of free time examining
> > alternate tonalities common among EDOs 9 through 27.
>
> 27 is an interesting division but a funny place to stop. You've never
> experimented with 31 or 34?
>
> How do we access xenharmonic.wikispaces?
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/index.html>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main/index.asp> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

>There's nothing impractical about more than 36 notes to the octave so
>long as you use electronic means.

I suppose not; heck, even if you don't use electronic means (as Kraig
pointed out). But for me, as a guitar player, anything above 36 might
as well be fretless. Hence, it doesn't interest me. That, and I feel
like there's kind of a law of diminishing returns for
higher-cardinality EDOs; *so far as I've found*, there aren't really
any new tonalities offered past 36...at anything past that point, all
that seems to result are more in-tune versions of harmonies found in
lower-cardinality EDOs, and maybe some interesting modulational
possibilities. Worth pursuing to some, but not to me. I wager that
most people looking at EDOs above 36 are really more interested in
them as practical JI approximations, which is totally cool, but at
that point the discussion will probably involve different language
than discussions about EDOs below 36 (i.e. it will involve more talk
of JI approximations and less talk of the unique tonal properties of
the EDOs).

> 27 is an interesting division but a funny place to stop. You've never
> experimented with 31 or 34?

I *started* my microtonal searches with a 31-tone guitar, and while it
has very nice JI-esque harmonic properties, I did not find it a very
productive source of new tonalities. Other than its typical meantone
scale, the only new tonalities it offered were scales of 11 notes or
more, and even those offered comparitively few consonant triads for
the number of notes they require. All the other MOS scales of less
than 11 notes don't produce enough consonant triads to form a
tonality. (Though I frankly haven't much explored the non-MOS
possibilities, because those seem even less disposed to producing new
tonalities).

That, and no one I've met in "real life" could even hear a difference
between the various types of intervals in 31.

The real reason though that I stopped at 27 is simply that my map of
my emotional landscape was exhausted by EDOs 9-27 (excluding 12 and
24); there were no places to fit 28-36. 34 and 29 are great (though I
regard them more as a JI-approximant and an extended Pythagorean
intonation, respectively, than anything else). 32, being twice 16,
and 33, being thrice 11, probably interest me more than anything else
in that range. Maybe someday I'll tinker around with them...but I
prefer to set a limit *somewhere*

> *so far as I've found*, there aren't really
> any new tonalities offered past 36...at anything past that point, all
> that seems to result are more in-tune versions of harmonies found in
> lower-cardinality EDOs, and maybe some interesting modulational
> possibilities.

I would say that the people using 21 notes of Blackjack out of 72 are doing something both interesting and possible of realization on a guitar, for example. Even more doable is a 13 note MOS out of 53 or 84, using an orwell generator.

> Worth pursuing to some, but not to me. I wager that
> most people looking at EDOs above 36 are really more interested in
> them as practical JI approximations, which is totally cool, but at
> that point the discussion will probably involve different language
> than discussions about EDOs below 36 (i.e. it will involve more talk
> of JI approximations and less talk of the unique tonal properties of
> the EDOs).

Sounds plausible, but a look at what people actually do shows it is wrong, I think. The approximations inherent in the EDO become central; this makes it different both from 13-et (which isn't really an approximation system) and JI. Then of course there are the people who adopt a wholly intuitive approach.

> I *started* my microtonal searches with a 31-tone guitar, and while it
> has very nice JI-esque harmonic properties, I did not find it a very
> productive source of new tonalities. Other than its typical meantone
> scale, the only new tonalities it offered were scales of 11 notes or
> more, and even those offered comparitively few consonant triads for
> the number of notes they require. All the other MOS scales of less
> than 11 notes don't produce enough consonant triads to form a
> tonality.

I think, considering how nice the 7 is, that looking at 31 as a purely 5-limit system is too limiting, but even then why not 13 notes with a 10deg31 generator? But more to the point, why not 13 notes with a 7deg31 generator? What you are ignoring, if you take the pure 5-limit point of view on orwell, is that the *generator* is a good-quality 7/6, just four cents sharp of just. Aside from 5-limit triads, there are also 1-7/6-3/2 and 1-3/2-7/4 triads, etc etc, to consider. There's also the 5/4-7/6-7/6-7/6 "magic" chord all over the place.

> That, and no one I've met in "real life" could even hear a difference
> between the various types of intervals in 31.

That's preposterous. No one can tell the difference between a fifth which is five cents flat and one which is 33.5 cents sharp?

I like this one. Now I have three favorites of yours.

-Carl

At 11:52 PM 5/14/2007, you wrote:
>New piece written over the past 2 days, uploaded here:
>
>http://www.h-pi.com/downloads.html
>
>Prelude in 11ET, my first piece in this tuning, uses octatonic scales
>(similar to the 13ET prelude) and lots of invertible counterpoint. It's
>the longest piece so far that I've written in a tuning other than 12,
>clocking in at almost 5 minutes, which may be ironic considering that
>11ET is not often considered a tuning one wants to hear a lot of, but I
>like it. Versions are uploaded for piano, harp, and harpsichord. [Note:
>beware that depending on your synthesizer, the harp version might
>occasionally have bending sounds in the reverb.]
>
>Thanks to everyone for the feedback on the Prelude in 13ET; I agree
>that that one is probably the most successful thus far next to the 17ET
>invention.
>
>Yours,
>Aaron Hunt
>H-Pi Instruments

Thanks, AKJ. I actually feel a bit the same about the piece being unrelenting, but I like it.
When finishing it I looked for a place to make a cut, but I decided it was OK the way it was
and I left it all in. Jon L. Smith has graciously made mp3 renderings of it at a slower tempo
and with some added rubato at the cadenza which you may like. I'm waiting for him to
send the piano version, which may end up getting posted on the H-Pi site.

Yours,
Aaron Hunt
H-Pi Instruments

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron K. Johnson" <aaron@...> wrote:
>
>
> Nice work...a bit relentless for me at times, but the counterpoint is
> interesting in a neo-Bach way, the 11-edo works with it, which is a feat
> in iteself.
>
> Perhaps I would like a more expressive performance, because the time is
> absolutely uninteresting and rigid. And a bit slower would be good, too.
>
> -A.
>
> Aaron Andrew Hunt wrote:
> > New piece written over the past 2 days, uploaded here:
> >
> > http://www.h-pi.com/downloads.html
> >
> > Prelude in 11ET, my first piece in this tuning, uses octatonic scales
> > (similar to the 13ET prelude) and lots of invertible counterpoint. It's
> > the longest piece so far that I've written in a tuning other than 12,
> > clocking in at almost 5 minutes, which may be ironic considering that
> > 11ET is not often considered a tuning one wants to hear a lot of, but I
> > like it. Versions are uploaded for piano, harp, and harpsichord. [Note:
> > beware that depending on your synthesizer, the harp version might
> > occasionally have bending sounds in the reverb.]
> >
> > Thanks to everyone for the feedback on the Prelude in 13ET; I agree
> > that that one is probably the most successful thus far next to the 17ET
> > invention.
> >
> > Yours,
> > Aaron Hunt
> > H-Pi Instruments
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Thanks Daniel. I liked these two. The compositions of yours that I've heard have a sort of
intense explosive quality which I like, and which strikes me a bit like Xenakis' music
sometimes does. The one in 11 seems like the tuning is there so it will sound "out of
tune", while the one in 13 sounds more seductive.

Yours,
Aaron Hunt
H-Pi Instruments

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "daniel_anthony_stearns"
<daniel_anthony_stearns@...> wrote:
>
> yes,i liked this and the recent 13piece as well...kind of two sides
> of the ill-tempered clavier i guess!maybe we should start a web page
> featuring these two difficult tunings as there's been a slew of
> pieces in them recently?
> i have a couple older pieces in these tunings up at
> http://zebox.com/danstearns_2/:
>
> http://zebox.com/cgi-bin/artists/dl.cgi?danstearns_2_-_11edo.m3u+qp+m4
> http://zebox.com/cgi-bin/artists/dl.cgi?danstearns_2_-_scherzo_in_13-
> edo.m3u+qp+m4
>
>
> Truth is, i've never had a hrad time with these two.....8edo, never
> had much luck there .
>
> daniel
>
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel Thompson"
> <microtonaldan@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Andrew Hunt <aahunt@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > New piece written over the past 2 days, uploaded here:
> > >
> > > http://www.h-pi.com/downloads.html
> > >
> > > Prelude in 11ET, my first piece in this tuning,
> >
> > Thank you for sharing this impressive piece in a difficult tuning.
> I'm
> > impressed whenever anyone gets something musical out of 11. I also
> > enjoyed your pieces in 13 and can't remember if I commented on them
> > previously. I spent a little time browsing around your website. If
> you
> > would care to contact me off list, I have a couple questions.
> >
>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Igliashon Jones"
<igliashon@...> wrote:
> > In fact, we should schedule an editfest, i.e. a weekend of rabid
> > editing of the wiki by multiple people, i.e. a temporary asynchronous
> > zone. How about next weekend - 25th through 27th? A nice bookend to
> > MMMMonth?
>
> Sounds good!
>

Annnnd begin! Once more:

http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/

The editfest goes like this: Edit up a storm. If enough people do it,
we'll create the impression that there is a community of people who
cares enough about alternat(iv)e tunings to care about the way they
are represented to the world by the community at large. I promise to
match anyone's quantity of edits.

Anyone can edit pages, but you have to have a wikispaces account to
create new pages. I'm not sure you even have to be a member of that
space. Amazingly, this free (with ads) wikifarm will host files up to
10MB now... what shall we build?

actually, two of the projects i want (a score repository and an
*effective* scale database) probably require a custom-designed
website. It's already unclear on the wiki how to name ratios, as the
search engine doesn't like the / character - see the page on 5/4 at
5-4. Also, the search engine doesn't seem to be searching page
content, and it might only if we switch to a pay plan.

that aside, priorities. equal temperament pages! useful pages with
musical examples! collaboration...exchange of ideas...etc.